Good job Vale.
What a pity :(
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 07:25:17 AM
Good job Vale.
What a pity :(
MaX.
Have I missed something here Max? What's happened? :-\
Hawk.
I'd only said the unthinkable has happened. You'll have to watch it, don't want to spoil it for the others.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 07:39:50 AM
I'd only said the unthinkable has happened. You'll have to watch it, don't want to spoil it for the others.
MaX.
Your being very enigmatic Max. :-X ;D
I've been searching on MotoGP.com about anything gone wrong for Rossi, but can't find anything out of the ordinary.... Wondering what your talking about now? Lol ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: ptrshpt on October 25, 2015, 08:01:01 AM
I perfectly understand what Rossi did.
I think Marquez intentionally caused him problems in Phillip Island and Sepang. He didn't get over Argentina and Assen.
Or maybe Rossi didn't get over MM dominating the last two years, the overtaking at Laguna Seca, Lorenzo pissing him off this year ...
MaX.
Personally i find it very unsporting from Vale.
Even if Marquez was helping Lorenzo, that is what goes on, they all do it if need be, look at Vale and Iannone.
So Vale get 3 penalty points and has too start at the back in Valencia.
I would say congrats on you're title Lorenzo.
Even if he starts last, it's not 100% over yet. He has a 7pts lead ...
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 09:38:37 AM
Even if he starts last, it's not 100% over yet. He has a 7pts lead ...
MaX.
True, but last in Valencia with Marquez, Lorenzo and Pedrosa in front of you.
and btw who says he will make it too the start? maybe hes already been hung by the Spanish fans ;D
We will see and know in 2 weeks time.
That's the bad thing overall: a brillant season and a brillant carreer, both ending in a sad manner.
MaX.
Quote from: ptrshpt on October 25, 2015, 09:54:50 AM
In warm up Marquez had the best pace. Why was he third in the race, fighting with Rossi?
Only Marc knows. Not me, not you and not Rossi.
Last race MM took 5pts away from Jorge at the last lap. How hard would have it been for MM *not* to pass Jorge the way he did ?
That's a much simpler question to answer ...
MaX.
Not seen the whole race or build-up to the race yet but looks to me like Rossi had some sort of issue with MM for some reason, still it was stupid of Rossi to take his issues out on riders on track like that; very surprised he did that. :-\
Quote from: ptrshpt on October 25, 2015, 09:54:50 AM
In warm up Marquez had the best pace. Why was he third in the race, fighting with Rossi?
There is a big difference to riding a bike in warm-up and qualy compared to an actual race: Lap consistency over distance and other factors like tyres and other peripheral things that can go wrong in a race like trying to overtake Rossi when you've pissed him off. Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Watch the slow mo.. Looks to me like Marquez fell on Rossi's leg and he did what he had to to stay up.
Certainly wasn't clean to me.
Quote from: TheFatController on October 25, 2015, 11:53:22 AM
Watch the slow mo.. Looks to me like Marquez fell on Rossi's leg and he did what he had to to stay up.
Yeah sure ... and the body language of Rossi and his whole crew at race end is because they were sad Marc didn't finish ... Come on guys ...
The other funny thing is that Yamaha made an appeal of the decision (rejected): I guess Jorge will appreciate that. Nice mess.
MaX.
And there's the reality check I always like to do in cases like this one: imagine that it was marquez or lorenzo to make vale fall in that way, what would have been your conclusion ?
Rossi can call himself lucky he got only that penalty, a DSQ was not far away and would have left him with even less chances to win the title at the last race. As it is right now, he still has a 7pts lead ...
MaX.
Oh I don't know about all that, I haven't followed GP in a couple of years.. Just going off watching the replay.
One's personal view on this matter pretty much depends on whether you like/dislike Rossi or Marquez. I am not a fanboy of either one, I just love good sports. But I am gonna say one thing: If you cannot fight for the championship yourself, then you try your best to not be a disturbing factor that can possibly play a decisive role in the battle for the championship.
If Marquez would have been clearly faster than Rossi he could have re-overtaken him cleanly and then pull away from him. But he did not. Instead he chose to battle with Rossi for every fookin corner which easily took off 1s per lap and made Lorenzo pull away. And some maneouvers were very dangerous. That easily infuriates one, who is fighting desperately for the championship.
I also have to say, I do not like the way Rossi handled it. Took it a step too far, but one might get carried away by emotions if someone is getting the feeling one rider (Marquez) is obviously taken sides and trying to help Lorenzo. Why did Marquez not fight back and try to obstruct in every corner after Lorenzo had overtaken him? He only did that after Rossi overtook him. So, you don't get the feeling that Marquez was treating Lorenzo and Rossi the same.
And another rider should try to let the riders involved in the championship battle, try to battle it out against each other without interfering. That is just not good sportsmanship - Period. Rossi's reaction afterwards also was not a display of good sportsman but it was caused by the behaviour of Marquez. If MM would have played fair, this would not have happened. Imo, that is why Marquez is to blame the most here. Rossi is to blame for letting his emotions get the best of him.
For those saying Rossi could not get over being dominated by Marquez in the past 2 years: Give me one example where Rossi did not take it like a gentleman if he was beaten in a fair fight. Rossi was always accepting it, even giving praise to the ones who beat him in a fair fight. But in the last two races he was getting the feeling that Lorenzo was getting help while he himself was getting obstructed. Someone like Rossi will accept being beaten in a clean fight, butif it gets unfair one might just lose one's temper.
Just my 2 cents.... Still was a great season, one for the ages.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 12:29:07 PM
One's personal view on this matter pretty much depends on whether you like/dislike Rossi or Marquez. I am not a fanboy of either one, I just love good sports. But I am gonna say one thing: If you cannot fight for the championship yourself, then you try your best to not be a disturbing factor that can possibly play a decisive role in the battle for the championship.
If Marquez would have been clearly faster than Rossi he could have re-overtaken him cleanly and then pull away from him. But he did not. Instead he chose to battle with Rossi for every fookin corner which easily took off 1s per lap and made Lorenzo pull away. And some maneouvers were very dangerous. That easily infuriates one, who is fighting desperately for the championship.
I also have to say, I do not like the way Rossi handled it. Took it a step too far, but one might get carried away by emotions if someone is getting the feeling one rider (Marquez) is obviously taken sides and trying to help Lorenzo. Why did Marquez not fight back and try to obstruct in every corner after Lorenzo had overtaken him? He only did that after Rossi overtook him. So, you don't get the feeling that Marquez was treating Lorenzo and Rossi the same.
And another rider should try to let the riders involved in the championship battle, try to battle it out against each other without interfering. That is just not good sportsmanship - Period. Rossi's reaction afterwards also was not a display of good sportsman but it was caused by the behaviour of Marquez. If MM would have played fair, this would not have happened. Imo, that is why Marquez is to blame the most here. Rossi is to blame for letting his emotions get the best of him.
For those saying Rossi could not get over being dominated by Marquez in the past 2 years: Give me one example where Rossi did not take it like a gentleman if he was beaten in a fair fight. Rossi was always accepting it, even giving praise to the ones who beat him in a fair fight. But in the last two races he was getting the feeling that Lorenzo was getting help while he himself was getting obstructed. Someone like Rossi will accept being beaten in a clean fight, butif it gets unfair one might just lose one's temper.
Just my 2 cents.... Still was a great season, one for the ages.
Completely agree with you Stout. I can't describe my opinion better.
Of course Vale makes a HUGE mistake, but Marquez on this 2 races was not fair that's for sure.
Let's see what happens in Valencia. This is not over yet.
I disagree on the "do not disturb thing", strongly. Races are races: Iannone did what he felt right in overtaking Rossi in AUS and, correctly, Rossi said there was no problem with that (despite the storm of criticism/insults to Iannone coming from Rossi's "supporters", including italian ones, that Rossi himself labeled as "stupid"). That was a very smart declaration from him, one we could expect from a veteran like he is. Pedrosa won 2 races too: should he have hold it back to avoid "disturbing" Jorge and Vale ? I don't think so.
In AUS MM took 5pts away from JL ... blabbing on Friday that JL is being helped by MM after that is just nonsense. It's just a way to ask MM to do whatever he can to piss you off. And guess what, that's exactly what happened.
Rossi is a veteran (Marquez is not): he should know better than throw it all away with declarations and actions like these.
And my view comes from somebody who, this year at least, was really hoping Rossi would get it: it would have been magical. Now, even if he gets it, it stinks. Badly.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 12:53:43 PM
I disagree on the "do not disturb thing", strongly. Races are races: Iannone did what he felt right in overtaking Rossi in AUS and, correctly, Rossi said there was no problem with that (despite the storm of criticism/insults to Iannone coming from Rossi's "supporters", including italian ones, that Rossi himself labeled as "stupid"). That was a very smart declaration from him, one we could expect from a veteran like he is. Pedrosa won 2 races too: should he have hold it back to avoid "disturbing" Jorge and Vale ? I don't think so.
MaX.
well said.
0 points to rossi would have been the right decision in my opinion.
he just gets away with that mild penalty because his name is so entangled with this sport.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 12:53:43 PM
I disagree on the "do not disturb thing", strongly. Races are races: Iannone did what he felt right in overtaking Rossi in AUS and, correctly, Rossi said there was no problem with that (despite the storm of criticism/insults to Iannone coming from Rossi's "supporters", including italian ones, that Rossi himself labeled as "stupid"). That was a very smart declaration from him, one we could expect from a veteran like he is. Pedrosa won 2 races too: should he have hold it back to avoid "disturbing" Jorge and Vale ? I don't think so.
You are not getting the point MaX. Of course races are races and everyone is entitled to try to get the best outcome out of his race. But why didn't Marquez stay behind Rossi after he was passed and look whether he can go his pace or not. If he could have gone Rossi's pace he could have tried to overtake him later on. This is what he did when Lorenzo overtook him. Marquez stayed behind and watched whether he could go his pace, which he could not. Marquez didn't settle after Rossi overtook him, Rossi never could get back into his rhythm.
Let me give you a simple example. In Iracing I can always fight off people that are 1s faster than myself, just by braking late and making a "block pass". Then the faster guy gets me in next straight or corner. After that I do my block pass again. If I choose to do that, I can fight with faster (<=1 s faster) guys all the race. But most of the time that doesn't make sense, because both of us are going slower than we would on our own and we end up letting guys behind us catch up. Or the faster guys gets annoyed and makes a dumb move and we both end up in the crash barrier. Thinking of that, doing that to a guy who wants to fight for the championship generally is regarded as a no-go, that is all I am referring to.
As I said before, if Marquez could have gone faster than Rossi, he surely would have had every right to overtake him. After the initial battles that cost very much time, Rossi even let Marquez ride without attacking him after Marquez had overtaken him. Rossi wanted to see whether he could close in on Lorenzo with Marquez in front. But after one lap it was obvious that Marquez was clearly slower, Rossi had to brake very early in some corners and moved back in behind Marquez. So, if he wanted to keep the slim chances alive to overtake Lorenzo, he HAD to get past Marquez. After that it should have been clear to Marquez that staying behind Rossi would be the smarter move. One reason is, that he could have tried to stay in Rossi's slipstream and try to stay with Rossi until Rossi might have wasted his tyres and overtake him later. The other reason, that it would have been in accordance with the unwritten rule, to not obstruct the guys being in the championship battle. By that time, it was clear that Marquez moves were not aiming at overtaking Rossi and staying in front of him. They were just aimed at not letting Rossi move away, so that he might not be able to keep Rossi in fighting distance by his constant block passes.
I do get the point. The problem is that:
- It's not against the rules (as race direction clearly stated)
- It's basically impossible to prove
- It doesn't justify Rossi's reaction
- It still does not explain why MM, so eager to help JL, took 5 precious points away from him in AUS
Cherry on top: Rossi declared he's not sure he will go to Valencia. That would be the single dumbest move I've ever seen in MotoGP and F1 together. He's in free-fall mode ... I do hope somebody will bring him back to reason tomorrow morning. If he has a PR/press guy, that man should either be locking Valentino in a room to avoid him speaking or be fired.
MaX.
Hey Guys!
Oh what a weekend it was. All started out on Thursday and got out of control.
What to say? I do understand and share most of your points here.
I am a big VR46 fan. But this move today way not on the edge - it was over the top. So I think there can only be one side concerning this move. But what we have seen were two of the greatest of the sport getting carried away by their emotions. And that was the problem. Yeah, I agree that fighting that hard with a 90 point deficit might be lack of respect. But if you can't get rid of a rider than you are not the faster one. MM should been calmer and possibly step back a little but he still is part of the field and has a job to do.
What makes me shaking my had the most is that Rossi hurt his chances with that behavior. Finishing 4th behind MM would have decreased his lead to 3 or 4 points BUT he could have qualified normally at Velncia - still having a normal chance to race him from the start. Now he needs to finish 2nd if Lorenzo wins (what he will be) but he needs to beat the whole field on a "Go-Kart-like" track. That impossible.
Finally I would like to side with Pedrosa. I actually don't like him but he has shown the most adult and objective reaction today. He said that if the rules would be more precisely riders will not have the possibility to be racing in that way. A lot of riders in M2 and M3 get away with stupid moves. Rossi got away often with stupid moves. Remember Marc's first MGP year - he also got away with stupid moves nearly wrecking everybody. Argentina, Assen and today would not have happened if race direction had been more balanced and clearer with giving penalties.
So boys - that's my way of looking at today's race. Even as a Vale fan ;).
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 25, 2015, 01:57:55 PM
I do get the point. The problem is that:
- It's not against the rules (as race direction clearly stated)
- It's basically impossible to prove
- It doesn't justify Rossi's reaction
- It still does not explain why MM, so eager to help JL, took 5 precious points away from him in AUS
- I never claimed it was against any written rules
- That does not mean, it is not true. However, I provided indicators backing that claim. Your answer seems to suggest that you would agree that MM behaviour is morally not ok, if it could be proven
- That's where I agreed in my first post already. However Rossi re-acted, Marquez did set the initial problem
- I was not referring to AUS, only Sepang.
The thing is, Rossi's behaviour clearly is against written rules. Marquez' behaviour is against unwritten sportsman's etiquette (at least there seems to be some consensus (to some degree) among former riders). However, Rossi's behaviour was caused by Marquez' behaviour. Imo, the obvious affront was caused by an ethical affront. Whether one can acknowledge that, pretty much depends on whether one does agree that Marquez behaviour was ethical ok or not. I did make my case for the latter, you for the first MaX. You cannot deny MaX, there are notable riders backing that Marquez' behaviour was not ok (there are also the other side ofc, but I never denied that).[/list]
i've been a huge rossi fan since the early days - i still proudly display a huge framed photo of him on the Repsol Honda in the '02 Donington GP, which i took by sneaking through the fence and basically standing a few feet off the track just on the exit to Melbourne hairpin, lol
watching this incident live had me feeling a little empty - what he did was wrong, plain and simple - and for me, severely dented the way in which i see him.
whatever his feelings toward marc, you simply don't do that to other riders, ever.
in contrast to last week's phillip island race, which will long stand as an all-time classic, and a highlight of how great this sport can be, to this incident, which is a personal low point.
the doctor has let this kid get under his skin, and it has shown here, in the worst possible way and at detriment to the championship.
if he doesn't get his 10th champs this year, and that's beginning to look like an outside bet, then he will only have himself to blame.
and like i said, i am a long time, huge fan of the man.
Explainations from the Doctor :
https://www.facebook.com/devino.class/videos/1506272059670877/ (https://www.facebook.com/devino.class/videos/1506272059670877/)
About my feeling, I don't want to take any part for any rider, except that Dani has done a great job. Otherwise, MotoGP is looking so bad today...
From hero to zero in one kick
if 46 would have been faster than 93, he would let marc stand on fourth places and would have tryed to get 99.
but 46 wasnt fast enought to open a gap between him and 93.
additional he did look 3 times where marc is while he was clearly pushing him to the track limits for serious reason.
also he used his foot to kick marc in that situation that the doctors caused by himself.
rossi willingness takes chances for a injury of marc by his caused crashed of him.
that man is totaly not a gentleman and has shown what kind of character he has.
Quote from: JJS209 on October 25, 2015, 04:43:03 PM
if 46 would have been faster than 93, he would let marc stand on fourth places and would have tryed to get 99.
but 46 wasnt fast enought to open a gap between him and 93.
additional he did look 3 times where marc is while he was clearly pushing him to the track limits for serious reason.
also he used his foot to kick marc in that situation that the doctors caused by himself.
rossi willingness takes chances for a injury of marc by his caused crashed of him.
that man is totaly not a gentleman and has shown what kind of character he has.
Agreed.
Both Rossi and Marquez were riding stupidly, but if I'm convinced of something, it's that Rossi didn't kick Marquez. I've been watched every replay since the race and it's pretty clear that Marquez put his helmet on Rossi's leg. His leg moved after Marquez started to loose control of his bike. So yes VR46 tried something quite strange and not very correct, but he didn't kick Marquez. And again both are stupid and are not giving a good image of MotoGP.
Thanks to keep the debate focused on the subject and to not attack personnally other members 8)
blackheart, only for you:
this thread is to dicuss the incident that happened at the sepang race between #93 and #46.
ok just me read the title, good continuation. ;)
Valentino Rossi is THE GOAT.
There is nothing he needs to prove to anyone and I personally am grateful that he chooses to stay in the game to make it interesting on the level he brings to the sport.
He did this, he did that, blah blah blah.
When Rossi go's ratings will suffer dearly. Drama is par for the course and makes it exciting to be a fan of the sport. Its all about who's side your on and your loyalty to brand.
One thing that makes me laugh is the statements floating around saying Rossi "kicked" Marc, lol It looked more like he had enough of his $hit and slowed into the corner to push Marc wide and Marc leaned into Rossi and Rossi said F&^% it and pushed him with his knee.
You can say Rossi has double standards by his battle with Stoner and the quote- "this is racing Casey" but in this situation a world title is at stake and there should be a level of respect here. And being Italian I know first hand what it means, the word respect!
There are no winners in this situation. If Jorge wins the title it means little as it will be remember for its negative side. Personally I am sad to see this happen as everyone wants a deserved moment in history.
Rossi is not tarnished.
Quote from: Blackheart on October 25, 2015, 05:24:41 PM
Probably he has not even seen the race.
Probably you haven't noticed the timestamp of my 1st message.
[This is the last time I ever reply to one of your posts, whatever you write from now on. So feel free to rage/insult/say you create content etc. Bye.]
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
Your answer seems to suggest that you would agree that MM behaviour is morally not ok, if it could be proven
Of course it's unethical to slow down somebody only for the sake of it. But ethical/unethical is something that can only be discussed between riders and not in front of cameras or race direction.
Notice however that in the past, many others (Rossi included), has decided to keep contact to try to make the opponent commit a mistake. It's not exactly identical (as MM had no stakes in the deal), but ethically, it's really not too far.
I can't judge if MM was unethical, if Rossi was convinced of the fact, he should have faced the man in the pits instead of pouring gasoline on the fire since thursday. I said at the time it was silly, and the race just proved that it was just that, a bad call.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
However Rossi re-acted, Marquez did set the initial problem
Or Rossi set the initial problem with the claims on thursday. Or MM set the initial problem overtaking Rossi roughly a few races ago. Or it goes all the way back to laguna ... who knows.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
The thing is, Rossi's behaviour clearly is against written rules.
I guess we can all agree on that (well, almost all). And unfortunately for Rossi, that's all that matters at the moment.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 02:37:38 PM
You cannot deny MaX, there are notable riders backing that Marquez' behaviour was not ok (there are also the other side ofc, but I never denied that).
Which probably means that both vale and marc were wrong. But in the end, only one of them lost a lot in the whole deal.
Now saying stuff like "Spain controls MotoGP" or "I don't know if I'll go to Valencia" is something so typically italian that makes me sorry.
Sorry Doctor: this time you screwed the diagnosis, you screwed the cure and now you're screwing the post mortem.
But once again: I'm really sad about that, I was really on his side (at least until thursday).
EDIT: not surprisingly, as I said ...
C.Stoner: "If anyone else had done what Valentino did we would have been black flagged immediately, no questions asked."
C.Fogarty: "Think if It was any other rider they would of been disqualified from the race for sure..."
MaX.
Quote from: WALKEN on October 25, 2015, 08:34:57 PM
One thing that makes me laugh is the statements floating around saying Rossi "kicked" Marc, lol It looked more like he had enough of his $hit and slowed into the corner to push Marc wide and Marc leaned into Rossi and Rossi said F&^% it and pushed him with his knee.
;)
Just a bit of frustration..
unfortunately marquez crashed and its probably cost him the title.. But, its good entertainment ;D anything can happen.. Still 8)
I've already posted my response on page two. That's my opinion.
But: after hours for calming down - isn't that why we are watching the sport? Fire and controversy.
I've been watching the race on BT Sports 2 today. James Toseland was at the studio giving interessting statements. One of them was like this: they were at slow speed. No risk for live. It still is unfair. But neither of those two would have done that at higher speeds.
Remeber Biaggi vs. Rossi in 1999. Remember Gibernau vs. Rossi Jerez 2004. Or Doohan vs. Cirivlie at Jerez, too. Also the (still) young Marquez in Moto2 (e.g.: vs Luthi at Quatar). We love AND hate those riders for their sometimes even not good behaviour. Have a look at F1 - they bore everyone to sleep. Yes, Rossi (who still is my hero) needs to be penalized harder. But - without those moves and topics to talk about the sport would be something different. Maybe (imo) more boring.
Again: today everything got out of control and i personally do not want to see that agin. But like Dani said after the race they need to be racing more calm but still hard.
Guess everybody needs to calm down. Rossi, Marc, Jorge, the fans.
Marc already has and will continue a great career, Vale had a fantastic one as well. The situation from last thursday up to today wasn't the greatest one for both of them. My guess is that two years from now most will be forgotten. That's part of the sport. Like sent offs in soccer. Not the best ones but a part.
Got a sniff of this topic this morning and had to resist the forum until I had chance to catch up watching a live recording.
Thank you all sooo much for not giving the result away in the thread or the title but yet providing some added pre-race mystery from the snippets I glanced. ;D!
You guys have said it all I have nothing to add really. All I can suggest is we, the spectators, are all winning with the drama really. 8)
PS: What with our Danny Kent maybe about to step into Barry Sheenes footsteps, this season has been one of the best so far for me and may have a fantastic climax.
It's entertainment.. and its entertaining!
Quote from: Napalm Nick on October 25, 2015, 10:18:17 PM
Got a sniff of this topic this morning and had to resist the forum until I had chance to catch up watching a live recording.
Thank you all sooo much for not giving the result away in the thread or the title but yet providing some added pre-race mystery from the snippets I glanced. ;D!
You guys have said it all I have nothing to add really. All I can suggest is we, the spectators, are all winning with the drama really. 8)
PS: What with our Danny Kent maybe about to step into Barry Sheenes footsteps, this season has been one of the best so far for me and may have a fantastic climax.
Yes, Man!
You're welcome. Me too happy to have a place for a good discussion filled with lots of knwoledge.
Danny Kent might be worth another thread. To be short: I've made a bet withe friends saturday after qualifying. If Danny doesn't do it this year, he'll never be (like Bradl and Cortese - a season that fits perfectly). Hope he'll clinch it. So deserved!
It's entertainment.. and its entertaining!
;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/v/n_eVrDzXQtA
Let's just pray for monsoon conditions for the last race of the season and see Rossi come from the back to win! That would be a fantastic end to the season and a legendary career for Rossi(Already a legend in his own right, as I honestly can't see him carrying on in the sport for much longer?). ;D ;D 8)
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
Hahahahahahah PIB + 100000000000
"Elementary, my dear Watson"
(https://media.giphy.com/media/lHutWkV2EOFmo/giphy.gif)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 26, 2015, 07:36:04 AM
;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/v/n_eVrDzXQtA
"And I look at him like OK F&*^, what the f&*^ you doing?"
lol
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
OMG that lack of style ...
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/115/682/1289788102664.jpg)
Remember this: We ALL have to say THANKS to Rossi
ROSSI = GOD on the earth
Quote from: ALEale on October 26, 2015, 04:57:04 PM
Remember this: We ALL have to say THANKS to Rossi
ROSSI = GOD on the earth
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120922215052/creepypasta/images/a/ab/Jesus_facepalm.jpg)
fanboys... ::)
hahahahahahahaha lol ;D
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
+ 1000
I cannot agree more....
Yor lucky your name is not *Casey stoner*.... because he gets (as a double time WC) hated for these words.
Luckily he still is making his point on the internet :D
Although these kind of politics did make him get tired of the the whole MotoGP scene (as i am for a long while right now)
So the Flossi euhmm Rossi story continues... i think yes.
Hopefully Lorenzo will win the poor motogp tittle as it is right now.
But i reckon so much money has gone into Flossi euhmm Rossi that no matter what..... :-[ he will get it this year....
This is too bad for other championchips aswell..
WSBK has become poor too
Rossi on ducati in MGP => all money to Rossi => result bye bye Ducati in WSBK
Rossi on Yamaha => result bye bye Yamaha in WSBK :-[
I realy love MGP/SBK but its
politics right now booohhhh cant stand it anymore...
Start watching MXGP instead real talents still do get a chance over there ;)
P.S
Back at Rossi and Marquez.. its by far from fair that Marquez has 0 points and Rossi still could keep his 3th place points...... that is so stupid :-\ unfair/etc to the other riders booohhh
Lol looking forward to reading davidboda46's thoughts on the race.... 8)
Quote from: Blackheart on October 26, 2015, 04:18:03 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
OMG that lack of style ...
You're right, it's better to learn style from the masters:
http://www.youtube.com/v/LdCTnGO4FTQ
:P
Quote from: WALKEN on October 26, 2015, 04:16:05 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 26, 2015, 07:36:04 AM
;D ;D
https://www.youtube.com/v/n_eVrDzXQtA
"And I look at him like OK F&*^, what the f&*^ you doing?"
lol
;D ;D
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 06:24:46 PM
Quote from: Blackheart on October 26, 2015, 04:18:03 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
OMG that lack of style ...
You're right, it's better to learn style from the masters:
http://www.youtube.com/v/LdCTnGO4FTQ
:P
I'm sorry boss, but I think you can't blame a rider for its stupid supporters. They are adults and the only ones to blame. :-\
Quote from: RiccoChicco on October 26, 2015, 07:03:29 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 06:24:46 PM
Quote from: Blackheart on October 26, 2015, 04:18:03 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 26, 2015, 07:43:50 AM
Let's face it.... After all he's done for the sport over the last twenty years I'd personally say he deserves the 2015 MotoGP champs title more than most. :P ;D
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/58480
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/motogp/2007/october/oct0307motogpbridgestoneblamevalentinorossiforonemaketyre/
Shame on MotoGP!
(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dickfigures/images/d/d0/Troll-Face-Dancing1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121112150543)
OMG that lack of style ...
You're right, it's better to learn style from the masters:
http://www.youtube.com/v/LdCTnGO4FTQ
:P
I'm sorry boss, but I think you can't blame a rider for its stupid supporters. They are adults and the only ones to blame. :-\
Who's blaming the rider?
The plan is to make fun of supporters ;D
Quote from: RiccoChicco on October 26, 2015, 07:03:29 PM
I'm sorry boss, but I think you can't blame a rider for its stupid supporters. They are adults and the only ones to blame. :-\
+1
...And
*triplefacepalm* for Piboso. :o
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 05:26:54 PM
Quote from: ALEale on October 26, 2015, 04:57:04 PM
Remember this: We ALL have to say THANKS to Rossi
ROSSI = GOD on the earth
(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120922215052/creepypasta/images/a/ab/Jesus_facepalm.jpg)
fanboys... ::)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gLVLLH_eZp8/UTWGLA-tsHI/AAAAAAAAAIo/uVEjEkfIDvE/s1600/fuck-yeah-gtfo-clean-l.png)
So you didn't love Rossi?
OUT FROM THIS FORUM.....Oh.... you can't(http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/meme/images/c/cb/Ysad-challenge-failed.png/revision/latest?cb=20150721051743)
(http://pix.crash.net/motorsport/710/AU1381174.jpg)
source (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224643/1/motogp-malaysia-rossi-marquez-lap-times.html)
Quote from: PiBoSo on October 26, 2015, 03:02:30 PM
Yeah!
He did so much for the sport and received so little in return!
No sponsors, no money, no tyres made specifically for him!
You forgot that in 2009 he also received a free of charge, on-request wall between his garage and his teammate's one :)
Anyway, all riders/drivers have done something stupid at one point, even the greatest of all. What makes all the difference is what you say after having done a stupid thing.
What I'd like to know is: let's imagine that in Valencia Lorenzo flies away immediately and Rossi comes back to 4th quickly (both are fairly possible).
If Dani and Marc are with Vale, what should they do in your opinion ? Fight for 2nd place or just let Rossi pass by ?
To me the answer is trivial, no matter what happened. But I'm sure others may think .. uh, let's say differently ...
MaX.
P.S.
@ALEale: I think everybody loves Rossi, hard not to. But not all love him enough to become blind.
P.P.S.
These are words by the two, taken a few months ago. They sound quite funny now ...
VR: "In 2009 I didn't like that Yamaha signed such a young and competitive teammate. But now everything is different. We are more mature. Each of us knows his role and position. Things are clear. Together, we work well for the development of the bike. Then, of course, we are both competitive and we want to win."
JL: "When I joined Yamaha, Valentino was the King, in the garage and in the paddock. He tried to save and mark his territory. Of course, this didn't help to create a good atmosphere. When he returned in 2013 after two years with Ducati, the situation was different. We cannot say that we are friends, but there is a lot of respect. We are two champions. We both want to win and to beat each other."
Marquez needs to learn when it's time to back off and show some respect (and this has nothing to do with Rossi being Rossi, this would apply to any rider).
At the moment, it doesn't get more cheeky, dumb and disrespectful than Marc Marquez.
I may give you my detailed arguments later but for now, this is my opinion (and a lot of unbiased racers agree).
Even if, it's up to race directors to take measures, not to rides applying their own justice and then complaining about a penalty.
You want to kick MM off, you do it. You get a penalty for that, you keep your mouth shut.
MaX.
My opinion is referring to Marquez in the incident itself aswell.
Rossi didn't want to kick MM off just as Marquez didn't want to kick off Lorenzo in Jerez 2013 or Rossi in Assen 2015 (just a few examples....).
This is my conclusion after watching frame by frame.
I will go further into the incident itself when I give you my arguments.
(http://s7.postimg.org/e5m3o6b8r/Slide1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
Supporters Behaviour: There are always bad apples in any supporter fan base that make headlines... Very rarely hear of the good things supporters do. :P
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me. Lol.... I mean what do we want? A true world champion or a champion who's been given the title because he hasn't had to battle to get it? Personally I'd like to see a true world champion..... I say let them all battle for races no matter what position they are in for the champs. :P
MotoGP Politics: There's always been politics in MotoGP and in GP500, the difference is that riders these days haven't got the balls to stand up for the sport and control the destiny of the sport they love; unlike the good old days of motorcycle racing were you had the top riders threatening to boycott races and world champs to create there own series if the authorities didn't do the right thing by the sport and riders alone.... Teams have too much control in what goes on in the sport nowadays for my liking and modern riders are now too scared to act on anything for fear of being sacked by their teams.
The top riders don't seem to realise it these days, but they do have very real power and a voice to change things if they so desired. Shame we don't have more riders today with Casey Stoners attitude... I'm sure if he could've got other top riders to back him up we'd have seen some real good old rider politics taking MotoGP in a great direction. ;D
Finally: Having looked closely at the Rossi/Marquez incedent - Yes, Rossi was out of order to do what he did but having said that, Marquez did absolutely make a right good old meal of the situation by intentionally crashing when he didn't need to. I'd guarantee that if that had been on a fast corner Marquez would not have ditched his bike like he did..... The whole thing looks like a Pro-Footballers dive for a penalty decision to me and unfortunately Rossi got the crap-end of the stick for it.
Having said that, I do think there has also been some governing body politics involved in that Rossi could well have been disqualified for his actions and therefore handing the World Title to Lorenzo there and then..... That would not have been good for the sport, so in that respect I agree with the light penalty they gave Rossi for what he did.
But overall this incident has only become a big issue because of the way Marquez took the dive to make it look a lot worse an incident than it actually was, and in that I agree with Rossi's account of the incident. :P
Hawk.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 26, 2015, 09:16:24 PM
What I'd like to know is: let's imagine that in Valencia Lorenzo flies away immediately and Rossi comes back to 4th quickly (both are fairly possible).
If Dani and Marc are with Vale, what should they do in your opinion ? Fight for 2nd place or just let Rossi pass by ?
To me the answer is trivial, no matter what happened. But I'm sure others may think .. uh, let's say differently ...
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me. Lol.... I mean what do we want? A true world champion or a champion who's been given the title because he hasn't had to battle to get it? Personally I'd like to see a true world champion..... I say let them all battle for races no matter what position they are in for the champs. :P
I do not know to whom these comments are referring. But I scrolled through this topic and did not see one single post that was proclaiming that a rider not involved in the championship battle should not be entitled to fight for his position during a championship battle. So I kind of get the feeling that these comments are referring to me? If that is the case I can only say that my oppinion was not understood one bit ???
Hehe maybe me! ;D from another thread.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on October 25, 2015, 10:29:24 PM
Edit: However, personally I think Marc should of stayed the hell out of it. Nobody should mess with a championship battle even if it isn't a 'rule'
But also possible Hawky knows my wife - if pussy politics is involved. ;D
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 27, 2015, 09:23:34 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 26, 2015, 09:16:24 PM
What I'd like to know is: let's imagine that in Valencia Lorenzo flies away immediately and Rossi comes back to 4th quickly (both are fairly possible).
If Dani and Marc are with Vale, what should they do in your opinion ? Fight for 2nd place or just let Rossi pass by ?
To me the answer is trivial, no matter what happened. But I'm sure others may think .. uh, let's say differently ...
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me. Lol.... I mean what do we want? A true world champion or a champion who's been given the title because he hasn't had to battle to get it? Personally I'd like to see a true world champion..... I say let them all battle for races no matter what position they are in for the champs. :P
I do not know to whom these comments are referring. But I scrolled through this topic and did not see one single post that was proclaiming that a rider not involved in the championship battle should not be entitled to fight for his position during a championship battle. So I kind of get the feeling that these comments are referring to me? If that is the case I can only say that my oppinion was not understood one bit ???
My ones were not referring to you at all of course. I was referring to Rossi's words on Thursday, where he kind of asked other riders to not get involved in his battle with Jorge. That's not the way races work.
MaX.
My round up is coming this week. Still trying to wrap my head around everything that happened. Right now I mostly feel sad actually, not because I've always been a Rossi fan but because I feel that everybody lost if we look at the big picture. Even Pedrosa who rode brilliantly to win the race, but not getting the deserved credit cause everybody is so focused on the Marc and Rossi-incident. It was a brilliant season that ended ugly and all three protagonists (Rossi, Marquez and Lorenzo) played their part in tarnishing it. I will go into more details in the round up, but my general opinion is that all of them acted like idiots, one way or another.
Cheers,
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 27, 2015, 09:23:34 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 26, 2015, 09:16:24 PM
What I'd like to know is: let's imagine that in Valencia Lorenzo flies away immediately and Rossi comes back to 4th quickly (both are fairly possible).
If Dani and Marc are with Vale, what should they do in your opinion ? Fight for 2nd place or just let Rossi pass by ?
To me the answer is trivial, no matter what happened. But I'm sure others may think .. uh, let's say differently ...
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me. Lol.... I mean what do we want? A true world champion or a champion who's been given the title because he hasn't had to battle to get it? Personally I'd like to see a true world champion..... I say let them all battle for races no matter what position they are in for the champs. :P
I do not know to whom these comments are referring. But I scrolled through this topic and did not see one single post that was proclaiming that a rider not involved in the championship battle should not be entitled to fight for his position during a championship battle. So I kind of get the feeling that these comments are referring to me? If that is the case I can only say that my oppinion was not understood one bit ???
Lol..... My comments do not refer to any individual in particular(more than one has talked about it and agrees with it, from this thread and other threads relating to this same thread discussion ). :)
I read your post(#19) and your explanation in your posts of #23 and #26, but your explanation amounted to basically the same intent as your first post(#19), which was basically saying that another rider should not interfere with other riders who are challenging for the riders championship title when said rider has no chance of winning championship title. Is that a misunderstanding?
If Rossi cannot overtake Marquez and get away from him then Marquez has every right(by the rules) to keep fighting for position no matter whether Marquez in running for championship or not, even if that means both riders will ride slower because of their battle.
The results of that battle(slowing each other down) of course can be used for unhonourable and disrespectful riding tactics, but that's racing, and if a rider is not good enough(or the bike isn't good enough) to make that break then he has to put up with it. All part and parcel of World Championship racing, or any racing for that matter. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me.
I want to make sure to be understood correctly. I did not say, that anyone should
keep out of the way. That seems to suggest, that I would be of the opinion that if Vale is closing in on any other rider, that the other rider would have to move out of the way and let Rossi pass. I have said before that in general of course everybody can battle for his position - because it is racing for god's sake!
But there are numerous indicators suggesting that Marquez just tried to obstruct Rossi in Sepang. I know this cannot be proven and I am not gonna engage in a discussion trying to convince others. I already gave some indicators that seem to suggest it. But for me it is perfectly fine if someone is willing to give Marquez the benefit of the doubt. I just want to make my case that there are also indicators for the opposite and based on that I think it is legit to have a different opinion and even race direction said it seemed to be the case (well it can interpreted). I don't want to be misinterpreted as if I was not in favor of normal racing or proposing any soft politics. I thought I was clear about that before.
I also want to stress (in case I was misunderstood there too) that I condem Rossi's reaction, even if he didn't kick Marquez. He did act in a bad and illegal manner and he should have been superior to that kind of behaviour.
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 01:41:15 PM
The results of that battle(slowing each other down) of course can be used for unhonourable and disrespectful riding tactics, but that's racing
This is where I disagree. Unhonourable or disrespectful behaviour should not be part of racing, or any sports for that matter. Imo, there is a moral aspect as well. Others might think different. But for me sports battles should always be clean gentlemen-like. I rather lose cleanly than win unhonourably. Btw, Rossi's behaviour imo was not only illegal as it was against rules, it was also very unhonourable and I agree that to some degree it puts a dark spot on his legacy. I just want to point out Marquez was also doing something that puts a dark spot on his legacy. I hope that in some stage of his career Marquez will end up in a situation where he is on the receiving end of such behaviour he sported in Sepang. I wonder how he will react, both on track and verbally.
Fact- Rossi did not "KICK" Marquez!
He (nudged) him.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nudge
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 27, 2015, 04:40:14 PM
Btw, Rossi's behaviour imo was not only illegal as it was against rules, it was also very unhonourable and I agree that to some degree it puts a dark spot on his legacy. I just want to point out Marquez was also doing something that puts a dark spot on his legacy.
All the above is agreed for me.
MaX.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 27, 2015, 04:40:14 PM
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 08:20:37 AM
Championship Battles: All this talk about other riders that are not in contention for the champs title should keep out of the way? That sounds like pussy politics to me.
I want to make sure to be understood correctly. I did not say, that anyone should keep out of the way. That seems to suggest, that I would be of the opinion that if Vale is closing in on any other rider, that the other rider would have to move out of the way and let Rossi pass. I have said before that in general of course everybody can battle for his position - because it is racing for god's sake!
But there are numerous indicators suggesting that Marquez just tried to obstruct Rossi in Sepang. I know this cannot be proven and I am not gonna engage in a discussion trying to convince others. I already gave some indicators that seem to suggest it. But for me it is perfectly fine if someone is willing to give Marquez the benefit of the doubt. I just want to make my case that there are also indicators for the opposite and based on that I think it is legit to have a different opinion and even race direction said it seemed to be the case (well it can interpreted). I don't want to be misinterpreted as if I was not in favor of normal racing or proposing any soft politics. I thought I was clear about that before.
I also want to stress (in case I was misunderstood there too) that I condem Rossi's reaction, even if he didn't kick Marquez. He did act in a bad and illegal manner and he should have been superior to that kind of behaviour.
I hear what your saying there Stout and understand now clearly what you were saying, but as I stated before, and I want to make it clear to you, my post wasn't aimed at you personally. If it was I would've named and quoted you directly in my post. Others agreed with your
initial misunderstood statement, as well as others on different threads posting same opinion(nothing against differing opinions at all, everyone has a right to their opinion on forums of course.) :)
Also I totally agree with you that Rossi should have been superior to what he did.... probably should've done a Biaggi on Marquez after the race instead(Remember that scuffle they had after the race that time years ago? Lol. ), at least he wouldn't be starting at the back of the grid for the last race. At worst probably a fine.
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 27, 2015, 01:41:15 PM
The results of that battle(slowing each other down) of course can be used for unhonourable and disrespectful riding tactics, but that's racing
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 27, 2015, 04:40:14 PM
This is where I disagree. Unhonourable or disrespectful behaviour should not be part of racing, or any sports for that matter. Imo, there is a moral aspect as well. Others might think different. But for me sports battles should always be clean gentlemen-like. I rather lose cleanly than win unhonourably. Btw, Rossi's behaviour imo was not only illegal as it was against rules, it was also very unhonourable and I agree that to some degree it puts a dark spot on his legacy. I just want to point out Marquez was also doing something that puts a dark spot on his legacy. I hope that in some stage of his career Marquez will end up in a situation where he is on the receiving end of such behaviour he sported in Sepang. I wonder how he will react, both on track and verbally.
Oh... I absolutely agree with you on that..... I only stated what I did to tell it how it is in reality when the chips are down for the run-up to winning a world title battle. Seems some riders will do anything they can to make sure they win or hinder a rider they don't want to win the title at almost any cost. ::)
Being honourable and respectful to fellow competitors is what true sports are all about... Just a shame big business seems to be spoiling that golden rule in top sports these days.
Hawk
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 28, 2015, 08:50:25 AM
I hear what your saying there Stout and understand now clearly what you were saying, but as I stated before, and I want to make it clear to you, my post wasn't aimed at you personally. If it was I would've named and quoted you directly in my post. Others agreed with your initial misunderstood statement, as well as others on different threads posting same opinion(nothing against differing opinions at all, everyone has a right to their opinion on forums of course.) :)
Glad to hear that Hawk. :) It can get irksome, if people try to twist the words in one's mouth and seem to see a discussion like a battle where someone wins and someone loses. I was under the impression that you were trying to do that, but it is clearer now. For me, a discussion is an exchange that will eventually lead to a clearer view on the discussed topic. Different views with their respective justifications and rationales provide a wider idea on a topic. I am willing to accept different views (if comprehensible), maybe even adapt certain aspects of a well-founded opinion - but I expect the same from others. Otherwise any discussion is only self-portrayal.
Quote from: Hawk UK on October 28, 2015, 08:50:25 AM
Also I totally agree with you that Rossi should have been superior to what he did.... probably should've done a Biaggi on Marquez after the race instead(Remember that scuffle they had after the race that time years ago? Lol. ), at least he wouldn't be starting at the back of the grid for the last race. At worst probably a fine.
Yes, he should have swallowed his anger during the race and explode afterwards. If he would have done that, actually I think Marquez would be in the line of fire by media and fans, which mostly is directed at Rossi at the moment. I think since Rossi pretty much knew his title is on the line, he got so enraged about Marquez being such a pain in the a$$, he kind of lost it. I think he got so enraged, he did not even care about the consequences (because he must have been aware of the fact that he would get a penalty of some kind, even if Marquez would not have crashed, which he did not intend to). I think one can somehow compare it to a situation, where someone grabbed the butt of your girlfriend. Legally, one should report the person to the police and he should be charged with sexual harassment and/or insult. But the normal behaviour to give the offender and good whopping for himself even if that means oneself would be charged with assault or whatever. ;)
Anyways, thanks for clearing it up mate. Cheers!
New chapter: Rossi is asking the CAS in Losanne to cancel his penalty.
https://motomatters.com/news/2015/10/30/valentino_rossi_appeals_sepang_penalty_t.html
As I said, what you do/say after doing something wrong is even more important than the wrong thing itself ...
MaX.
mmm.. can't see an appeal working out for Vale, much as that would be great for the championship.
the mystery and intrigue continues, lol.... ;D
Next next chapter: http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224829/1/honda-data-shows-rossi-kicked-marquez.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224829/1/honda-data-shows-rossi-kicked-marquez.html)
Key bits here (but it's mostly interesting, good to read it fully):
QuoteDo you believe Valentino kicked Marc's bike?
[Shuhei Nakamoto] "It is clear that Valentino intentionally pushed Marc towards the outside of the track, which is out of the rules, therefore Marc had no other option other than to run wide. The data from Marc's bike shows that even though he was picking up the bike trying to avoid contact with Valentino, his front brake lever suddenly received an impact that locked the front tyre, which is the reason for his crash. We believe that this pressure was a result of Rossi's kick. The data acquisition from Marc's bike is available if anybody from Dorna, the FIM or media want to check."
What is your opinion of Valentino in this moment?
"Valentino is the greatest ever champion of our sport. We believe he has done a great job this year, and if he wins the Championship he truly deserves it, as he has been consistent and very fast all year. The fact that he is 36 years old increases the respect for such a great champion. Having said that, we don't understand his accusation related to the Phillip Island race and his manoeuvre in Sepang. We hope that Valentino will think it over and understand his mistake."
Would be nice to see that, I do hope some media jump on the occasion.
Anyway, despite all the ones claiming they will not watch the Valencia GP, I'm ready to be it will have the highest number of TV spectators ever (for a MotoGp race).
MaX.
P.S.
Re-watched "Hitting the Apex" yesterday (had to show it to my dad): it gives you a lot to think about the latest events ...
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 02, 2015, 10:58:07 AM
P.S.
Re-watched "Hitting the Apex" yesterday (had to show it to my dad): it gives you a lot to think about the latest events ...
Cant wait for sequal. Hitting the spaniard :P
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 02, 2015, 10:58:07 AM
Next next chapter: http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224829/1/honda-data-shows-rossi-kicked-marquez.html (http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/224829/1/honda-data-shows-rossi-kicked-marquez.html)
Key bits here (but it's mostly interesting, good to read it fully):
QuoteDo you believe Valentino kicked Marc's bike?
[Shuhei Nakamoto] "It is clear that Valentino intentionally pushed Marc towards the outside of the track, which is out of the rules, therefore Marc had no other option other than to run wide. The data from Marc's bike shows that even though he was picking up the bike trying to avoid contact with Valentino, his front brake lever suddenly received an impact that locked the front tyre, which is the reason for his crash. We believe that this pressure was a result of Rossi's kick. The data acquisition from Marc's bike is available if anybody from Dorna, the FIM or media want to check."
What is your opinion of Valentino in this moment?
"Valentino is the greatest ever champion of our sport. We believe he has done a great job this year, and if he wins the Championship he truly deserves it, as he has been consistent and very fast all year. The fact that he is 36 years old increases the respect for such a great champion. Having said that, we don't understand his accusation related to the Phillip Island race and his manoeuvre in Sepang. We hope that Valentino will think it over and understand his mistake."
Would be nice to see that, I do hope some media jump on the occasion.
Anyway, despite all the ones claiming they will not watch the Valencia GP, I'm ready to be it will have the highest number of TV spectators ever (for a MotoGp race).
MaX.
P.S.
Re-watched "Hitting the Apex" yesterday (had to show it to my dad): it gives you a lot to think about the latest events ...
I'm a bit disappointed that Honda used the word "kicked" what happened to common sense these days?
(" The data from Marc's bike shows that even though he was picking up the bike trying to avoid contact with Valentino, his front brake lever suddenly received an impact that locked the front tyre, which is the reason for his crash. We believe that this pressure was a result of Rossi's kick.")
Max your 1000% correct! It will be a race not to miss by anyone regardless of the drama as it is the drama that brings attention.
Let's hope CAS does the right thing and gives us the championship finale we deserve.
I'm actually pretty optimistic about it.
The data won't prove anything unless they can match TV pictures of Rossi kicking marquez's front brake lever with that data which apparently they have already tried to do without any success; so for Honda to actually come out and say the data in their opinion shows that Rossi did kick Marquez's front brake lever is a total nonsense. More likely Marquez saw the edge of the track coming up and pulled his front brake himself causing him to crash. :P
I think they will rule for Rossi and we'll have the race we all want to see, otherwise this incident will become a conspiracy incident for the greatest MotoGP rider ever to have been denied the chance to win a 10th title, and that would be a great shame.
If they rule for Rossi then they can let Rossi, Lorenzo, Marquez, and any other rider who can compete with them battle it out fair and square and win or lose it will put this incident to bed for good in MotoGP history. ;D
Hawk
LOL!!! he was nowhere near his front brake.... besides, they have a brake guard to stop that happening!
personally i think they are both guilty.. although i also think rossi should have kept his mouth shut after phillip island.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 02, 2015, 07:13:39 PMpersonally i think they are both guilty.. although i also think rossi should have kept his mouth shut after phillip island.
No, race direction should have resolved the conflict before the race like Yamaha demanded.
Quote from: vin97 on November 02, 2015, 07:15:12 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 02, 2015, 07:13:39 PMpersonally i think they are both guilty.. although i also think rossi should have kept his mouth shut after phillip island.
No, race direction should have resolved the conflict before the race like Yamaha demanded.
Resolved what?
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 02, 2015, 07:13:39 PM
LOL!!! he was nowhere near his front brake.... besides, they have a brake guard to stop that happening!
Hmm even with a brake guard I think it's still possible to hit the brake lever, especially with a knee.
I'm not convinced he gave a proper kick, but the knee movement was definitely suspect to me.
Anyway, the penalty has not been awarded for the kick (or not kick), so at least that makes little difference :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 02, 2015, 07:45:13 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 02, 2015, 07:13:39 PM
LOL!!! he was nowhere near his front brake.... besides, they have a brake guard to stop that happening!
Hmm even with a brake guard I think it's still possible to hit the brake lever, especially with a knee.
I'm not convinced he gave a proper kick, but the knee movement was definitely suspect to me.
Anyway, the penalty has not been awarded for the kick (or not kick), so at least that makes little difference :)
MaX.
Max, you have to have a hell of a good aim to hit the front brake with your knee, while going forward, while actually not looking at it at the moment right before impact, while the other bike is moving as well and, and on top of that manage to get under the brake guard.
Vale might have moved his knee as a reflex when he felt Marc's bike against him, the same way riders use their elbows to nudge another rider on the straights, but I doubt that he could ever kick the brake on purpose (in that situation), not even Rossi is that good. It's the same way I doubt that Marc could have cut Pedrosa's rear wheel sensor cable once more, even if he tried 500 times.
Cheers,
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Yes david, I wasn't implying he did it on purpose. To me he just opened the knee to push Marc away an din doing so, it is possible to hit the brake (as Marc was essentially leaning on Vale).
So to me it is: did Vale hit the brake intentionally ? Surely not. Did he open the knee to push him away ? Yes. Was his intention to make him fall ? Very unlikely.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 02, 2015, 08:39:06 PM
Did he open the knee to push him away ? Yes. Was his intention to make him fall ? Very unlikely.
Agree on this.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 02, 2015, 08:39:06 PM
Yes david, I wasn't implying he did it on purpose. To me he just opened the knee to push Marc away an din doing so, it is possible to hit the brake (as Marc was essentially leaning on Vale).
To me, it looks as impossible to hit the brake lever with a knee in a way that it is pushed towards the handlebar and then cause the brakes to lock. I think there is not enough space.
(http://superbikeplanet.com/image/archive/caseysbikeindy2012/1.JPG)
My theory is that either Marc accidentally pulled the brake himself too strong or that Rossi hit the Forearm of Marquez in a way that caused the brake to be pulled accidentally and the handlebar to be pushed down on his right side.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 02, 2015, 10:22:28 PM
To me, it looks as impossible to hit the brake lever with a knee in a way that it is pushed towards the handlebar and then cause the brakes to lock. I think there is not enough space.
Don't know, with the fingers+glove on, with the knee slides on the knee ... anyway, we'll never know.
MaX.
just a comment:
the brake lever is grabed by the right hand of the rider when motogp riders are on the track.
so it would be enough to touch the hand of the opponent rider to cause a braking.
its not that tiny and impossible to hit it like the pic will tell us.
Quote from: JJS209 on November 03, 2015, 01:41:42 PM
just a comment:
the brake lever is grabed by the right hand of the rider when motogp riders are on the track.
so it would be enough to touch the hand of the opponent rider to cause a braking.
its not that tiny and impossible to hit it like the pic will tell us.
That is why I wrote this:
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 02, 2015, 10:22:28 PM
My theory is that either Marc accidentally pulled the brake himself too strong or that Rossi hit the Forearm of Marquez in a way that caused the brake to be pulled accidentally and the handlebar to be pushed down on his right side.
From the heli cam it seems quite possible that vale's leg has hit marc's brake (or hand on brake):
https://www.youtube.com/v/fnZwYJJ2w4E
MaX.
Like they said in the investigation.... the video shows inconclusive evidence.
Hawk.
latest news, and this i like: ;D
QuoteJorge Lorenzo has been told he cannot take part in MotoGP championship leader Valentino Rossi's Court of Arbitration for Sport hearing into a grid penalty imposed for the season's final race.
Rossi, who leads Lorenzo by seven points, was adjudged to have kicked Honda's reigning champion Marc Marquez off his bike in Malaysia last week.
He was demoted to the back of the grid for Sunday's race in Spain.
Lorenzo asked to participate in the appeal but was denied by CAS.
bloody right - as i mentioned earlier, he should never have had any say in this matter at all.
a perfect example of what would in any legitimate court proceedings be called a 'conflict of interest'.
nice one, CAS 8)
Yeah, I think PR people (and team managers) at Yamaha are doing a piss poor job. Or maybe they don't have any PR, which is just as bad.
MaX.
Yamaha's PR is certainly a lot better than Honda's who use unconfirmed allegations in their official statements.
indeed - very disappointing that they used the term 'kicked' in official statements, when it was proven inconclusive. ???
Quote from: vin97 on November 04, 2015, 04:18:57 PM
Yamaha's PR is certainly a lot better than Honda's who use unconfirmed allegations in their official statements.
Honda expressed an opinion (vale kicked marc) and as said by many, it can't be confirmed nor refuted. It's their opinion: anybody can disagree on it (and maybe most do).
Notice however that in honda's note, the (supposed) kick was not the key argument: the other facts (all proved) were the main argument.
But yamaha, in letting jorge and vale open their mouths as they did (before and after the race in Sepang), just made the whole situation worse. For themselves.
Now if yamaha sides with jorge, vale is unhappy. If yamaha sides with vale, jorge is unhappy. Nice team management ...
MaX.
Quote from: vin97 on November 04, 2015, 04:18:57 PM
Yamaha's PR is certainly a lot better than Honda's who use unconfirmed allegations in their official statements.
;D
Now runs the news that Marquez was attacked by two Italian journalists.... the truth is a bit different ;D
Quote from: Blackheart on November 04, 2015, 04:30:28 PM
Quote from: vin97 on November 04, 2015, 04:18:57 PM
Yamaha's PR is certainly a lot better than Honda's who use unconfirmed allegations in their official statements.
;D
Now runs the news that Marquez was attacked by two Italian journalists.... the truth is a bit different ;D
Indeed! I heard that it was actually Marquez that attacked the Italian Journalists..... Though the journalists were being arseholes from what I read, they deserved what Marquez gave them.
Good for you Marquez, some journalists deserve a good kicking. Lol ;D
Hawk.
It is actually a satirical program the most famous in Italy, "le iene" it was all a joke, the Marquez (father) destroyed the camera, and he has hit the two "reporter/comedians" unfortunately for him the audio remained and proof that these Marquez are liars. ;D
funny how the two different journalist camps (SPA/ITA) spin that same story in two very different ways, lol
all i know is, i've definitely seen MM's dad losing the plot in the pits - why on earth they even allow him in the garage, beats me.
i've seen him throwing tantrums on more than one occasion, not the ideal role model if he ever wants his kids to mature, lol ;D
For who speak Spanish and Italian here is the full audio. ;D
http://www.sportmediaset.mediaset.it/motogp/motogp/motogp-le-iene-a-casa-dei-marquez-ecco-il-video_1080893-201502a.shtml (http://www.sportmediaset.mediaset.it/motogp/motogp/motogp-le-iene-a-casa-dei-marquez-ecco-il-video_1080893-201502a.shtml)
CAS decision just revealed - Rossi's appeal rejected, he will start from the back of the grid at Valencia. :-X
edit - added link - http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2015/11/05/cas-dismiss-request-by-rossi/188894
I don't see how the CAS could have decided anything else: there was absolutely no basis for the appeal.
I still consider that Vale is better off as is (i.e 7pts lead but start last) compared to the other possible situations (only 4pts lead but qualify normally, as if he had finished Sepang 4th, or 9pts behind jorge and qualify normally, as if he had been DQ in Sepang).
the best Rossi fans can hope for now, is that hte two Honda's are in front of Lorenzo. in this case, Vale would need to finish in sixth place to win the title, which isn't out of the question. A long shot, but still a shot.... :)
I really wouldn't like to be one of the other riders (outside vale, jorge and marc): anyone of them that sunday will barely try fight back vale will be labeled as pro-jorge (or pro-marc, or pro-honda, or pro-spain) by at least two thirds of the motogp fans ...
I think Rossi will see little opposition from other riders: not because they want to help him, but just because the do not want to be in the middle of a sh!tstorm if they don't do it.
MaX.
Riders should be able to battle for position with Rossi and not being branded pro- or against anyone.
absolutely agreed, Boeren...
as much as i would like Rossi to win, the last thing i want is for him to win because others let him. no championship should be given to anyone because they 'deserve' it, they must earn it, no matter who.
that said, i hope Rossi pulls something special out of the bag on Sunday (let's face it, it will have to be something really special if he wants the title), and i hope we are in for one last great treat for this season :D
My perfect weekend:
Race 1: Moto 3: Danny Kent wins a fair and deserved championship.
Race 2: Moto 2: Sam Lowes sticks it to the man and not to the scenery.
Race 3: The top four fall off, Rossi wins a well deserved championship, Bradley Smith takes a well deserved (on that bike) top spot.
After that I will mostly be....very drunk. ;D
Biggest controversy would be if he was fasted during practice and qualifying and then lost out on the title by a few seconds ;)
Any possible scenario will lead to a controversy now. Really, whoever will win, the other will have something to say. Bad.
Quote from: CapeDoctor on November 05, 2015, 04:41:28 PM
absolutely agreed, Boeren...
as much as i would like Rossi to win, the last thing i want is for him to win because others let him. no championship should be given to anyone because they 'deserve' it, they must earn it, no matter who.
that said, i hope Rossi pulls something special out of the bag on Sunday (let's face it, it will have to be something really special if he wants the title), and i hope we are in for one last great treat for this season :D
Well then Lorenzo dont deserve it too.....big help from Márquez in last race!!!......i will love to see Andre Lennone do the samme shit to Lorenzo this weekend!!!
Well I think they have made the wrong decision. If Rossi doesn't manage to get through the field and win the Championship then everyone will be saying that the authorities robbed him of it and that Rossi is the real MotoGP Champ.
If Jorge wins the champs then he must know that he's won it by default and therefore cannot be a true champion.
In the fans minds this will always now be the case throughout MotoGP history... What fools FIM are... Unbelievable!! They could've ruled in Rossi's favour and let Jorge and Rossi battle the champs out fair and square.... Now if Rossi doesn't win there will always be a doubt who is the true MotoGP Champion of 2015. Idiots! ::) ::)
Hawk.
Hopefully bautista goes bowling again on the first corner! ;D ;D
Quote from: Hawk on November 05, 2015, 08:22:07 PM
In the fans minds this will always now be the case throughout MotoGP history... What fools FIM are... Unbelievable!! They could've ruled in Rossi's favour and let Jorge and Rossi battle the champs out fair and square.... Now if Rossi doesn't win there will always be a doubt who is the true MotoGP Champion of 2015. Idiots! ::) ::)
But if they didn't penalize Rossi and Rossi then won the champ, Lorenzo could have said the same (and quite rightly so, as what Rossi did is definitely outside the rules).
I don't see how most of the people just forget that ... it's not "fair and square" when one pushes another out of the track intentionally. No matter what.
I can understand the folks saying marquez should be penalized (even if it's hard to prove), but I can't understand the ones saying vale should not have been penalized: he took out somebody that was fighting with him for a 3rd place (and 3 extra points, that could be very important for vale). Even if there's no proven kick.
Let's say in Valencia, last lap, dani is 1st, marc is 2nd, jorge 3rd and vale 6th: if race ends like this, vale wins as he only loses 6 pts to jorge.
Now at the last corner jorge attacks marc and blatantly pushes him out of the race: as a result jorge is 2nd and vale 5th. Now jorge wins because he gets 9 more points than vale.
Would you say that is fair and square ? Do you think vale won't complain ? Come on ...
The sad thing this shit will go on until at least Qatar 2016.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 08:46:51 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 05, 2015, 08:22:07 PM
In the fans minds this will always now be the case throughout MotoGP history... What fools FIM are... Unbelievable!! They could've ruled in Rossi's favour and let Jorge and Rossi battle the champs out fair and square.... Now if Rossi doesn't win there will always be a doubt who is the true MotoGP Champion of 2015. Idiots! ::) ::)
But if they didn't penalize Rossi and Rossi then won the champ, Lorenzo could have said the same (and quite rightly so, as what Rossi did is definitely outside the rules).
I don't see how most of the people just forget that ... it's not "fair and square" when one pushes another out of the track intentionally. No matter what.
I can understand the folks saying marquez should be penalized (even if it's hard to prove), but I can't understand the ones saying vale should not have been penalized: he took out somebody that was fighting with him for a 3rd place (and 3 extra points, that could be very important for vale). Even if there's no proven kick.
Let's say in Valencia, last lap, dani is 1st, marc is 2nd, jorge 3rd and vale 6th: if race ends like this, vale wins as he only loses 6 pts to jorge.
Now at the last corner jorge attacks marc and blatantly pushes him out of the race: as a result jorge is 2nd and vale 5th. Now jorge wins because he gets 9 more points than vale.
Would you say that is fair and square ? Do you think vale won't complain ? Come on ...
We obviously have a different point of view on this Max...... The thing is that now if Rossi doesn't win people will say he was robbed, and yet if Jorge wins they will say that he only won because Rossi was relegated to the back of the grid for the last vital race. So why couldn't the authorities see sense and put this historical issue to bed and let them race it out fair and square? Then the best rider wins.... As it is the 2015 MotoGP Champs has as near as damn it been decided by the authorities.
I for one wouldn't want to win a championship under those circumstances because I'd never know for sure if I could've won it had Rossi not been banned to the back of the grid.... That would always stick in my gut. But then again, Jorge is probably one of those people who doesn't give a damn whether he wins fair and square as long as he wins, but the fans will know different for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if Jorge wins that he gets booed on the podium. That would be very unfortunate but this bad decision by the authorities has created this situation.
Hawk.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 08:46:51 PM
I don't see how most of the people just forget that ... it's not "fair and square" when one pushes another out of the track intentionally. No matter what.
The ones referring to "fair and square" are just making an argument that the championship should be battled out on track between Lorenzo and Rossi like it has been all year. And letting Rossi start from the back sure gives him a disadvantage. Don't get me wrong, I do have the opinion that Rossi's behaviour was bad. But that this behaviour and the implied sanctions cost him in all likelihood the championship, still leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, even if you want to put Sepang behind. And there for sure will always hang like a dark cloud over this MotoGP title if Lorenzo wins it. Because in direct comparison, Rossi was leading the championship standings. If I was Lorenzo, I would have rooted for Rossi to be cleared of his penalty points, so I would have had the possibility to win the championship directly from Rossi. Valencia is not a track where Rossi is particularly good and results like Lorenzo 1st and Rossi 3rd or worse, Lorenzo 2nd and Rossi 4th or worse would all have meant Lorenzo to win the championship. That would have been a cool move by Lorenzo.
In general, I am glad the they upheld the decision to give Rossi 3 penalty points for running Marquez off in Sepang. Although it mainly is about sending a signal that this behaviour is not acceptable. Because the reaction of Rossi was dirty and not sportsmanlike. But let's keep the facts straight: Rossi was penalized with 3 penalty points for his behaviour in Sepang. If Rossi would not have already received 1 penalty point for his obstruction in Qualifying in Misano, then he would
not have been demoted to last place on the grid in Valencia. Rossi's behaviour in Sepang would have led to 3 penalty points as a sort of "warning" but he still would have had every opportunity to win the championship in Valencia. I am pretty sure the Spaniards would be complaining about Rossi not being penalized enough. But at least the championship would have been battled out on the track.
And I am being a realist. It is by no means impossible for Rossi to still win the championship, but very hard if one looks at it realistically. Lorenzo is in his comfort zone, Rossi cannot directly put pressure on Lorenzo on the track and that is when Lorenzo is at his best. And Valencia is not quite the best track for overtakes, so I think Vale will be hard pressed to cut through the field, always at danger of running into someone who is fighting for his position.
EDIT: Hawk already explained it nicely...
But what would you prefer (if you were Rossi):
- to start last in Valencia but keep your 7pts lead (as in relaity), or
- to quali as normal in Valencia and have only 4pts lead (not to speak about being 9pts behind) ?
People (not necessarily here on this forum) moan about the decision but then do not answer the simple question.
4pts lead mean sthat if jorge wins, it's over ...
Funnily enough, nobody dared to ask this to Rossi ::)
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 09:59:49 PM
But what would you prefer (if you were Rossi):
- to start last in Valencia but keep your 7pts lead (as in relaity), or
- to quali as normal in Valencia and have only 4pts lead (not to speak about being 9pts behind) ?
People (not necessarily here on this forum) moan about the decision but then do not answer the simple question.
4pts lead mean sthat if jorge wins, it's over ...
Funnily enough, nobody dared to ask this to Rossi ::)
If Rossi started with a 4pts lead instead of 7pts( I presume for that he could qualify for position on the grid?) then at least Rossi and Jorge would be able to battle it out fair and square for the champs; it would be a case of whoever wins the race(between Rossi and Jorge) wins the Championship, that would've been great! Surely the better of the two options for the good of MotoGP history? ;D
Or am I missing something here? :-\
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on November 05, 2015, 10:13:06 PM
If Rossi started with a 4pts lead instead of 7pts( I presume for that he could qualify for position on the grid?) then at least Rossi and Jorge would be able to battle it out fair and square for the champs; it would be a case of whoever wins the race(between Rossi and Jorge) wins the Championship, that would've been great! Surely the better of the two options for the good of MotoGP history? ;D
Or am I missing something here? :-\
This is what you (and me and others, as motogp fans) would like, right.
By my question was different: if you were
Rossi, what would you prefer ?
Do you think he has more chances starting last but with 7pts lead or starting normally (1st/2nd row) but with only 4pts lead ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 09:59:49 PM
But what would you prefer (if you were Rossi):
- to start last in Valencia but keep your 7pts lead (as in relaity), or
- to quali as normal in Valencia and have only 4pts lead (not to speak about being 9pts behind) ?
People (not necessarily here on this forum) moan about the decision but then do not answer the simple question.
4pts lead mean sthat if jorge wins, it's over ...
Funnily enough, nobody dared to ask this to Rossi ::)
The discussion imo does not really boil down to these options... But as you seem to be eager for an answer ;) :
I would take the 4point lead anytime if I have all opportunities in my hands. Any sportsman would do that and Rossi for sure would have preferred it imho.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 10:17:27 PM
Do you think he has more chances starting last but with 7pts lead or starting normally (1st/2nd row) but with only 4pts lead ?
the latter for sure imo, running thru the whole field just makes it so much hazardous. And having the possibility to fight directly with the main opponent makes it so much more rewarding.
The question on how other riders should react when Rossi is trying to overtake, has already been discussed. I am thinking of Rossi being able to get within 7th (9pts) or 6th(10pts). If the Hondas work quite well again on Valencia then it is not impssible that Lorenzo might find himself in 3rd place (16pts) only. If Rossi gets in 6th then Lorenzo would have to get by one of the Hondas of Marquez and Pedrosa. I wonder how hard the spaniards would "battle" that out, given that a spaniard's title is at stake in front of a spanish crowd. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt, but I think I would not jump to any conclusions that Marquez would not fight equally as hard as he did with Rossi in Sepang :-X
If I was Rossi I would definitely want to be able to qualify and race for the win. I can almost guarantee that Rossi believes he can win the race, and let's face it, anything can happen in the race, especially if Rossi could have the chance to put Jorge under a lot of pressure(that's given that Jorge would be riding in 1st place for a lot of the race?). :)
But yeah... If I were Rossi I would want that opportunity for a qualifying position on the grid; preferably also with the 7pt lead rather than the 4pt lead. ;D
Whatever happens, this last race is going to be very exciting! But as the relegated under-dog I'll be pushing for Rossi for sure! ;D ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 05, 2015, 10:18:43 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 09:59:49 PM
But what would you prefer (if you were Rossi):
- to start last in Valencia but keep your 7pts lead (as in relaity), or
- to quali as normal in Valencia and have only 4pts lead (not to speak about being 9pts behind) ?
People (not necessarily here on this forum) moan about the decision but then do not answer the simple question.
4pts lead mean sthat if jorge wins, it's over ...
Funnily enough, nobody dared to ask this to Rossi ::)
The discussion imo does not really boil down to these options... But as you seem to be eager for an answer ;) :
I would take the 4point lead anytime if I have all opportunities in my hands. Any sportsman would do that and Rossi for sure would have preferred it imho.
To me it's not so obvious that he prefers option#2: in the recent races jorge has always been faster than him, and vale knows it ...
But let's assume you are right, option #2 is better: then why in hell in Sepang vale didn't settle for 4th place (and complain after) ?!?!
Quote from: HornetMaX
To me it's not so obvious that he prefers option#2: in the recent races jorge has always been faster than him, and vale knows it ...
But let's assume you are right, option #2 is better: then why in hell in Sepang vale didn't settle for 4th place (and complain after) ?!?!
Why would he? He was faster than Marquez at that point (please do not argue with lap times after the incident) and he had reason to believe he could get into the fight between Lorenzo and Pedrosa. As a racer you don't miss out on such opportunities, because that would have made his position for Valencia rather comfortable (just imagine he would have overtaken Lorenzo).
To some extent that's a good point Max..... I can only say that Rossi obviously uncharacteristically lost his head that day for some reason. Maybe in his own head he wanted to teach Marquez a good lesson which has obviously backfired on him. A little like a situation were you've given someone several warnings for giving you grief in a bar then give them a good slapping for ignoring those warnings, and then you yourself get arrested for grievous bodily harm. Lol
A little unfair, but I guess the law is the law right? :P
Hawk.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 05, 2015, 10:50:27 PM
Why would he? He was faster than Marquez at that point (please do not argue with lap times after the incident) and he had reason to believe he could get into the fight between Lorenzo and Pedrosa.
Well, one can't at the same time say "I'm faster than you but I can't pass you". These are bikes, not cars.
If he was faster than marc, he would have passed him and forgot him in 2 laps. But I don't think that was the case.
Quote from: Hawk on November 05, 2015, 10:59:14 PM
To some extent that's a good point Max..... I can only say that Rossi obviously uncharacteristically lost his head that day for some reason.
See, we agree from time to time.
The champion's move, the veteran's move, the smart move was to let marc get 3rd and complain about his behaviour after: vale would have been totally on the side of the "victim" instead of on the one of the "guilty" (even if marc was arguably on the one of the "annoying prick").
But then again, to me it was clear from thursday press conf that vale had something to settle with marc. And he settled it all good. But after you can't complain if you get a penalty ... especially when you announced it beforehand.
fucking CAS, this is bullshit
now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.
i have no doubt that, given the opportunity, Marquez will rather help Lorenzo than Rossi. if he had no reason before, he certainly does now.
a bike race can never be predicted, though - one fall could drastically change the outcome.
Quote from: Abigor on November 05, 2015, 08:17:13 PMWell then Lorenzo dont deserve it too.....big help from Márquez in last race!!!......i will love to see Andre Lennone do the samme shit to Lorenzo this weekend!!!
Who? ;D Andrea Iannone!
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 11:14:23 PM
Well, one can't at the same time say "I'm faster than you but I can't pass you". These are bikes, not cars.
If he was faster than marc, he would have passed him and forgot him in 2 laps. But I don't think that was the case.
With all due respect, that is not true if speed difference is not more than about 1sec per lap. I already referred to that in an earlier post...
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 25, 2015, 01:46:49 PM
I can always fight off people that are 1s faster than myself, just by braking late and making a "block pass". Then the faster guy gets me in next straight or corner. After that I do my block pass again. If I choose to do that, I can fight with faster (<=1 s faster) guys all the race. But most of the time that doesn't make sense, because both of us are going slower than we would on our own and we end up letting guys behind us catch up. Or the faster guys gets annoyed and makes a dumb move and we both end up in the crash barrier.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 11:14:23 PM
The champion's move, the veteran's move, the smart move was to let marc get 3rd and complain about his behaviour after: vale would have been totally on the side of the "victim" instead of on the one of the "guilty" (even if marc was arguably on the one of the "annoying prick").
But then again, to me it was clear from thursday press conf that vale had something to settle with marc. And he settled it all good. But after you can't complain if you get a penalty ... especially when you announced it beforehand.
I agree to some degree. Rossi should have been smarter, he just should have battled for the best position he could have gotten - even if that would have meant to only get 4th. At least everybody would have seen that Marquez really was the un-classy prick. Now Rossi himself is in that role. But we argue from the standpoint of knowing all consequences after the race. Asking from someone to stay ultra-unemotional with a pulse of 180 is maybe asking too much. And talking about champion's move: A champion's move from Marquez would just have been to overtake Rossi cleanly (if he was fast enough) and then let Rossi eat his dust and his words. That would have sent a message, a clean message on the track. Except he chose this un-classy way and somehow fueled the accusations of Rossi (Marquez helping Lorenzo).
But I disagree with Rossi settling for 4th place without trying to fight for 3rd, because as I explained before he had realistic hopes of maybe even closing in on Lorenzo and maybe get to fight with him. You cannot pass on an opportunity like this if you wanna fight for the championship (Valencia would have been a close battle either way). If he would taken 4th and maybe Lorenzo would have won (at that time Rossi had to consider that very much), that would have meant Lorenzo coming into Valencia with a 1point lead in the championship standings. That clearly is not something that you consciously settle for...
In general, looking back at this whole incident, I think Rossi made a mistake by calling out Marquez and accusing him of helping Lorenzo in Phillip Island. For one that clearly is not the case imo and secondly he misjudged how Marquez would react. For almost any other rider Rossi's comments would have somehow caused the reaction that the accused rider maybe would have verbally backfired, but he would not stayed out of any hard battles. They would also have overtaken Rossi if clearly faster, but not if fighting would have meant to be a hard battle and then somehow maybe leaving a picture of Rossi being right with his accusations. But I think Rossi misjudged the character of Marquez. Marquez is one of the fiercest competitors ever and he was not to just take it and not react to it. So I think, Rossi himself called the demons that caught him in the end. I can understand Marquez not just backing down and trying to show off Rossi. But I think he should have somehow been smarter and have done it differently. Because the way he did it in Sepang clearly did not prove the accusations of Rossi wrong.
Quote from: vin97 on November 06, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
fucking CAS, this is bullshit
now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.
Whom are you referring to exactly?
Another weird thing I often hear (and read): Marquez helped Lorenzo (meaning this was his goal).
I don't think Marc wanted to help Jorge: they are not so close (to my knowledge) and the fact they are both from Spain means nothing: Biaggi was italian too ...
To me it's more that March had something against Vale (and vice versa). It's not the same thing.
Whoever wins will not deserve it. In an ideal world, I'd give the title to Pedrosa: at least he stayed out of all this. But in an ideal world, we wouldn't be commenting all this :)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 08:05:11 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 05, 2015, 11:14:23 PM
Well, one can't at the same time say "I'm faster than you but I can't pass you". These are bikes, not cars.
If he was faster than marc, he would have passed him and forgot him in 2 laps. But I don't think that was the case.
With all due respect, that is not true if speed difference is not more than about 1sec per lap. I already referred to that in an earlier post...
I disagree: we've seen many races where a rider can overtake and put some gap in, ending the race with 5sec advantage: you can pass and go away even if you're less than 1sec per lap faster.
The problem is that vale was not faster than marc (quite the contrary probably).
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 08:05:11 AM
I agree to some degree. Rossi should have been smarter, he just should have battled for the best position he could have gotten - even if that would have meant to only get 4th. At least everybody would have seen that Marquez really was the un-classy prick. Now Rossi himself is in that role. But we argue from the standpoint of knowing all consequences after the race. Asking from someone to stay ultra-unemotional with a pulse of 180 is maybe asking too much. And talking about champion's move: A champion's move from Marquez would just have been to overtake Rossi cleanly (if he was fast enough) and then let Rossi eat his dust and his words. That would have sent a message, a clean message on the track. Except he chose this un-classy way and somehow fueled the accusations of Rossi (Marquez helping Lorenzo).
100% aligned on that (except the "asking too much", that's what they are paid for no ? ).
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 08:05:11 AM
In general, looking back at this whole incident, I think Rossi made a mistake by calling out Marquez and accusing him of helping Lorenzo in Phillip Island. For one that clearly is not the case imo and secondly he misjudged how Marquez would react. For almost any other rider Rossi's comments would have somehow caused the reaction that the accused rider maybe would have verbally backfired, but he would not stayed out of any hard battles. They would also have overtaken Rossi if clearly faster, but not if fighting would have meant to be a hard battle and then somehow maybe leaving a picture of Rossi being right with his accusations. But I think Rossi misjudged the character of Marquez. Marquez is one of the fiercest competitors ever and he was not to just take it and not react to it. So I think, Rossi himself called the demons that caught him in the end. I can understand Marquez not just backing down and trying to show off Rossi. But I think he should have somehow been smarter and have done it differently. Because the way he did it in Sepang clearly did not prove the accusations of Rossi wrong.
And 100% aligned on that too :)
The summary is: Rossi made 2 ugly mistakes (Sepang pre-race press conf accusations and Sepang race behavior) and got a deserved penalty. Marquez behaved as a prick (in Sepang, but in Phillip Island there's nothing he can be accused of) and lost a 3rd place. Lorenzo showed poor thinking in his post-Sepang declarations.
But people hoping the CAS could have any judgement of this are living in a parallel universe.
MaX.
Quote from: Boerenlater on November 06, 2015, 08:39:16 AM
Quote from: vin97 on November 06, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
fucking CAS, this is bullshit
now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.
Whom are you referring to exactly?
I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? ;D
Hawk.
Anyway this is getting pathetic.
All of you!
Just stop moaning about the incident. Nothing you can do about it. You can browse the internet all day long for other riders' posts like Fonsi Nieto or view frame by frame.
Nothing will change. Rossi got his penalty the end. That's how race control ruled and we got to live with it.
Just hope for a good race Sunday without incidents.
If Vale wins all praise to him, if Jorge wins he is also a deserving champion. Give the titlewinner some respect regardless who you support.
I'm more of a 99 fan but that doesn't mean I don't want to see Vale win. Posting photoshopped pictures of Jorge being gay with Marc isn't mature and I think most people would look down on such behaviour.
Just shut the fuck up about this and enjoy the race. 8)
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 08:46:07 AM
Quote from: Boerenlater on November 06, 2015, 08:39:16 AM
Quote from: vin97 on November 06, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
fucking CAS, this is bullshit
now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.
Whom are you referring to exactly?
I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? ;D
Hawk.
Dani? He is quite small :P
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 08:43:47 AM
Another weird thing I often hear (and read): Marquez helped Lorenzo (meaning this was his goal).
I don't think Marc wanted to help Jorge: they are not so close (to my knowledge) and the fact they are both from Spain means nothing: Biaggi was italian too ...
To me it's more that March had something against Vale (and vice versa). It's not the same thing.
I agree with you Max..... I think Marquez is just one of those guys that will fight like hell for the best position he can get not matter who is in front of him or the cost involved. His problem is that he just hasn't learned to use his head yet.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 08:43:47 AM
Whoever wins will not deserve it. In an ideal world, I'd give the title to Pedrosa: at least he stayed out of all this. But in an ideal world, we wouldn't be commenting all this :)
MaX.
That I disagree with you about.
I'll probably surprise you by saying that I think both Lorenzo and Rossi deserve to win the championship..... It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident. For that my sympathies go to Lorenzo because he's now in a no win situation in that if he wins(quite likely I'd say not withstanding a Rossi miracle) people will say he only won because Rossi was relegated to the back of the start grid and therefore is not the true champion. Bad situation. :-\
True. In an ideal world we certainly wouldn't have to be commenting on this sort of issue. :)
Hawk
Quote from: Boerenlater on November 06, 2015, 08:48:46 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 08:46:07 AM
Quote from: Boerenlater on November 06, 2015, 08:39:16 AM
Quote from: vin97 on November 06, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
fucking CAS, this is bullshit
now the championship is officially ruined thanks to that little prick.
Whom are you referring to exactly?
I would've thought the word "little" would've gave you a definite clue? ;D
Hawk.
Dani? He is quite small :P
Nooo..... Dani is minute! Hehe ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:01:33 AM
It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.
Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:01:33 AM
It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.
Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?
Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?
The fact that they cannot now do that is a fact and totally down to the wrong ruling of the authorities.... Taking pts off Rossi would've been a better decision for the sport as it would've still penalized Rossi for the incident but would not have virtually ruined what has been a great and close running championship up till now.
Edit: Maybe that decision was influenced by the mighty Honda Team? Oooow. Now that has poured water into the oil fire! Hehe ;D ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?
A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did). But it wouldn't have changed a lot:
- The moaning from "fans" would have been just as louder.
- After that penalty, no matter who would have lost the title would have been in a position to moan about it: jorge saying vale deserved a bigger penalty, vale saying he didn't deserve one at all.
The only situation in which the outcome would have been undebatable is: vale gets a DQ in Sepang but still wins the title. Any other situation has room for more or less arguing.
BTW: in the year of marc's 1st title he got a DQ in Phillip Island for a technicality (mandatory pit-stop for bike swap done 1 lap too late). Nobody said that was unfair.
It didn't matter that much (marc still had a comfortable 18pts lead after that), but the rule would have been applied even if he had no lead at all: because it's a rule.
And as some other riders have said: if you
intentionally do what vale did, you get a DQ. Unless you're vale. And that's bad.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?
A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did). But it wouldn't have changed a lot:
- The moaning from "fans" would have been just as louder.
- After that penalty, no matter who would have lost the title would have been in a position to moan about it: jorge saying vale deserved a bigger penalty, vale saying he didn't deserve one at all.
The only situation in which the outcome would have been undebatable is: vale gets a DQ in Sepang but still wins the title. Any other situation has room for more or less arguing.
BTW: in the year of marc's 1st title he got a DQ in Phillip Island for a technicality (mandatory pit-stop for bike swap done 1 lap too late). Nobody said that was unfair.
It didn't matter that much (marc still had a comfortable 18pts lead after that), but the rule would have been applied even if he had no lead at all: because it's a rule.
And as some other riders have said: if you intentionally do what vale did, you get a DQ. Unless you're vale. And that's bad.
Lol ;D
I think no matter what anyone says here, it comes down to an individuals point of view on the issues here. So no matter what one says, another will disagree because they are seeing it from a different point of view.
It's a difficult one and reminds me of what politics must be like when you have different cultures represented by their governments all arguing/debating their own points of view based on there cultural standings and ideals..... It's an absolute nightmare to resolve and something that will inevitably be debated and argued about for years to come with no clear common agreement/mandate on these issues.
My point of view is simple: Think about the good of the sport and have penalized Rossi in a way that would've still allowed him to run the last race fair and square for the championships with Lorenzo.
Others point of view seems to be that Rossi deserved a bigger punishment that would've and actually has(with the punishment he has been given) basically given the championship to Lorenzo(barring as I've said before, a miracle from Rossi for the race). That surely isn't good for the sport, and certainly isn't good for Lorenzo and the fans peace of mind should Lorenzo now take the championship because Lorenzo and the fans will always be asking whether Lorenzo could've won it had he had the chance to race Rossi fairly and squarely in the last race. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that situation if I was Lorenzo.
Hawk.
This thread needs some Spanish member input. Especially if they are a Spanish Rossi fan boy. Get this fire lit!
Come-on Cal!
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 08:43:47 AM
I disagree: we've seen many races where a rider can overtake and put some gap in, ending the race with 5sec advantage: you can pass and go away even if you're less than 1sec per lap faster.
The problem is that vale was not faster than marc (quite the contrary probably).
Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it. That is, if you are fighting ALL other riders as equal opponents. In the case between Rossi and Marquez, Marquez was pretty much battling only Rossi because he did not want to back down (I assume because of what Rossi said after AUS).
If the speed difference is reasonably low, one rider can almost always force himself in front of another rider, esp. someone with the braking skills like Marquez. All he had to do, was to remain in fighting distance until the next braking zone. He just needed to brake into the corner on the inside and the other one will be forced to get in line behind. If the other one chooses to counter this by riding the "fighting line" (e.g. a line on the inside so that the other one can't pull off his block pass) then he won't be overtaken, but he is losing time due to not being on the fastest line and will not be able to shake off the opponent easily. That is what happened between Rossi and Marquez. The reason why not everybody is doing this at all times is, that a race is not a race between 2 guys only. Even the guy doing the block pass is going slower than he would on his own and he would end up letting guys behind him catch up and might end up losing even more positions. Also, you have to be a very good rider to pull this off on many corners without braking too late on some corner and eventually losing so much time as to not be in fighting distance anymore.
But don't get me wrong, I don't wanna say Rossi was clearly faster than Marquez. I think they were not much apart in terms of lap times at that moment. Rossi was being a bit faster, it is being proven by the fact that Rossi was well behind Marquez in lap 1, but Rossi managed to close in on him, so he had to be faster by some margin at that point.
The natural behaviour of a rider in Marquez' position would have been to establish some reasonable lap times, let the tyres get optimally warm (Nakamoto acknowledged that Marquez was having troubles in early laps because of his tyres not being optimally warm), he should have tried to go with the pace of Rossi until his tyres are optimally working, maybe even let Rossi 'pull' him to Pedrosa and Lorenzo (if Rossi had the pace) and then overtake whoever he wants. He might even have had a shot at winning the race in the latter stages of the race.
That is how a rider reacts if he is looking for his own personal best result and he is fighting every rider equally. Just remember how Marquez did a wonderful strategic race at Misano. He pretty much sorted the driving style of Lorenzo and Rossi in the rain, he let them take the risk of driving in front. At one point it, he seemingly even let Rossi pass on purpose just to be able to observe him from behind and manage his tyres. And he did everything right in that race, being able to manage tyres and make the perfect stop strategy for swapping bikes. He won easily. He is well capable of running a strategic race (there are other examples as well). He just picked this situtation with Rossi to fight for the biggest balls in the paddock. A bit dirty thing to do to someone who is fighting for the championship, but again: Rossi pretty much has to blame himself after his comments, for that psychologic trick backfired on him badly.
Quote from: Blackheart on November 06, 2015, 06:36:47 AM
Quote from: Abigor on November 05, 2015, 08:17:13 PMWell then Lorenzo dont deserve it too.....big help from Márquez in last race!!!......i will love to see Andre Lennone do the samme shit to Lorenzo this weekend!!!
Who? ;D Andrea Iannone!
Ohhh yeaa THANKS ;D
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 12:15:34 PM
Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.
There're only special situations in which this is true. I'm really not sure it was the case in Sepang. Fastest race laps in Sepang:
1. Jorge Lorenzo 2m 0.606s (lap 2)
2. Dani Pedrosa 2m 0.795s (lap 2)
3. Marc Marquez 2m 0.818s (lap 2)
4. Valentino Rossi 2m 1.127s (lap 4)
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 12:39:56 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 12:15:34 PM
Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.
There're only special situations in which this is true. I'm really not sure it was the case in Sepang. Fastest race laps in Sepang:
1. Jorge Lorenzo 2m 0.606s (lap 2)
2. Dani Pedrosa 2m 0.795s (lap 2)
3. Marc Marquez 2m 0.818s (lap 2)
4. Valentino Rossi 2m 1.127s (lap 4)
Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 10:27:03 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:18:57 AM
Err.... Well what about taking the 3 Pts off Rossi as a penalty, as I think you were referring to in an earlier post? That would've allowed both riders to still battle-out the championship for the last race fair and square, right?
A bit on the light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio (given the admittedly intentional character of what vale did).
As I said earlier: Rossi was penalized with 3 penalty points for his behaviour in Sepang. If Rossi would not have already received 1 penalty point for his obstruction in Qualifying in Misano, then he would not have been demoted to last place on the grid in Valencia. Would you also have said then that it would have been on the "light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio"?
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 12:39:56 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 12:15:34 PM
Well I don't want to be stubborn about this, but really still disagree with you on this one. Of course you can only be 1-2 tenth faster and end up with a 5s gap. But normally the guy being a bit slower realizes it and accepts it, because he will be faster in the long run by accepting it.
There're only special situations in which this is true.
Whatever you say MaX...
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 12:56:13 PM
Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision. :)
Totally agree, I think MaX is well aware of that too.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:01:33 AM
It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.
Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?
A proper ruling imo would have been to subtract 3 race points from Rossi for gaining 3rd by running Marquez off. Given the circumstances (the very close battle in the championship) every point is very valuable and that penalty itself is hard enough imo. Of course they should have publicly condemned the behaviour in an official statement etc etc, maybe even threaten to hang a harsh penalty in case Rossi ever does sth like this again. But demoting him to back of grid kind of ruins this whole season because the championship is not being fought out on track. The ruling as it is, is acceptable, but it would have been a bit nicer to have less consequences for the championship battle imo.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 12:56:13 PM
Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision. :)
Totally agree, I think MaX is well aware of that too.
Agreed. No disrespect intended Max. ;)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 09:01:33 AM
It's just a shame that they have both been put in the position they are now in because of the short sighted ruling of the authorities on the Rossi/Marquez incident.
Uh, what would have been a proper ruling ?
A proper ruling imo would have been to subtract 3 race points from Rossi for gaining 3rd by running Marquez off. Given the circumstances (the very close battle in the championship) every point is very valuable and that penalty itself is hard enough imo. Of course they should have publicly condemned the behaviour in an official statement etc etc, maybe even threaten to hang a harsh penalty in case Rossi ever does sth like this again. But demoting him to back of grid kind of ruins this whole season because the championship is not being fought out on track. The ruling as it is, is acceptable, but it would have been a bit nicer to have less consequences for the championship battle imo.
+1 Totally agree with you Stout. ;)
Hawk
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 01:07:26 PM
As I said earlier: Rossi was penalized with 3 penalty points for his behaviour in Sepang. If Rossi would not have already received 1 penalty point for his obstruction in Qualifying in Misano, then he would not have been demoted to last place on the grid in Valencia. Would you also have said then that it would have been on the "light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio"?
I don't get the question. Yes, what I'm saying is that -3pts on the license is a light penalty compared to what he did, exactly because if he didn't have already a -1pt penalty on his license, he would have got no (practical) penalty at all. At least with respect to that, jorge's ranting is not totally unjustified (even if misplaced), no ?
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 01:07:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 06, 2015, 12:56:13 PM
Fastest lap times don't mean a thing when your trying to build a gap....... It's the rider who can put in consistently faster lap times over the race distance. Something Rossi is very good at, hence the poor qualifying and bad starts yet good results on race day in comparision. :)
Totally agree, I think MaX is well aware of that too.
Except that vale in Sepang has been slower than dani/jorge all along the race, not only in fastest lap time.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 01:07:26 PM
As I said earlier: Rossi was penalized with 3 penalty points for his behaviour in Sepang. If Rossi would not have already received 1 penalty point for his obstruction in Qualifying in Misano, then he would not have been demoted to last place on the grid in Valencia. Would you also have said then that it would have been on the "light side in terms of infraction vs penalty ratio"?
I don't get the question. Yes, what I'm saying is that -3pts on the license is a light penalty compared to what he did, exactly because if he didn't have already a -1pt penalty on his license, he would have got no (practical) penalty at all. At least with respect to that, jorge's ranting is not totally unjustified (even if misplaced), no ?
Well then I understand your point of view. I am not sharing it, but at it makes sense to me now.
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
Except that vale in Sepang has been slower than dani/jorge all along the race, not only in fastest lap time.
What is your point here?
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 06, 2015, 09:57:50 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 06, 2015, 02:01:58 PM
Except that vale in Sepang has been slower than dani/jorge all along the race, not only in fastest lap time.
What is your point here?
Just that it's not so sure that vale was quicker than marc, so the fact they had a battle is somehow normal.
From the start I got the feeing that vale real thought is: marc (and dani) are fast enough to be in fron t of jorge, ao that's where they should be. If they are not, it's because they are helping him.
Of course he cannot say that openly, but if you read between the lines of what he said ...
Anyway, d-day minus one, so we're almost there !
Yeh nearly Moto3 race time! #ComeonKenty
(http://www.dannykentracing.com/images/logo-dk52.gif)
No1