PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => General Discussion => Topic started by: on January 01, 1970, 12:00:00 AM

Poll
Question: Just curious, what is your default view preference
Option 1: 100% onboard votes: 16
Option 2: 100% chase votes: 12
Option 3: both votes: 14
Title: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 18, 2015, 05:20:39 PM
With some decent mod bikes posted recently i have noticed the onboard view seems to get very little attention and some are quite poor quality. Is it because the modders believe no one ever uses this onboard view?

I never use chase and i would like to see at least a few bikes with quality onboard models, textures and working gauges.

Thanks
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: C21 on November 18, 2015, 05:43:56 PM
I always use chase (better called 3rd person) but checked the onboard (1st person) of correct graphic (e.g. hands on the bars....).
But i do not care if the onboard instruments are working or not.....(i´m physic modder not graphic).....i transfer this to our gfx guy  ;D 8)
I test and race in 3rd person only.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: JJS209 on November 18, 2015, 05:50:22 PM
~80% 3rd person and ~20% onboard view for me.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 18, 2015, 06:10:31 PM
My preference would be for onboard all the time but not if others are using 3rd person in a race. I compromise and now use 3rd person more. Its nice to see the bike and have more spatial awareness in a race.

Once VR is mainstream, there are hardcore servers with lots of similar minded players and the best-laps server distinguishes between different views I'm quite happy to compromise.

But I agree I wish all the Mod bike authors ensured the onboard view was correct. It still surprises me that onboard isn't the mainstream here really.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 18, 2015, 06:11:14 PM
for me, probably about the same as JJS209's previous reply.
i use external(chase) view more because i can get a better idea visually of what the bike is doing, and this helps to compensate for the lack of 'feel' when playing on a PC as opposed to riding in reality.
If the feel/feedback from riding could be improved, be this via some sort of extra controller that provides accurate tactile feedback or something similar, then i would much prefer to ride in the real onboard view.
another issue for me is the default view position of the first person onboard view isn't the same as it might be in reality, at least for many of the bikes - i find the view to be too low, too close to the tank, and that it should be higher, as my forward view is quite hampered by this. i'm not talking about when the rider leans forward behind the fairing - for the most part, this is okay.
the problem with many of the bikes i've tried is that the 'upright' rider view is lower in first-person view, than it should be when looking from third-person view. hope i explained this okay?
and lastly, yes, the detailing also determines how much time i'm prepared to spend in on-board view - if the cockpit is crudely modelled, clocks not working, etc, then i won't spend more time in that view, and just go straight to third person.
other bikes which have well-detailed dash, etc - i am much happier to spend more time in this view.
finally, let me just say that the first-person view (the only one that we use in real life, lol) will provide a much more immersive sim experience than the external view, even if it is a bit trickier to master.
my $5, lol  ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 18, 2015, 06:40:14 PM
Quoting yourself is very pretentious I must say lol.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 18, 2015, 06:45:06 PM
err....lol. i really have no idea how that happened..heheh!  ::)
gonna try remove .
ah, i see what happened - i edited my previous post, but hit 'quote' instead of 'modify', lol  :-[
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 18, 2015, 06:57:00 PM
Lol. No its a good ploy to get a point across hehe  ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: matty0l215 on November 18, 2015, 07:05:02 PM
100% on board

Ever since PeteV's events. Can't ride in 3rd person now, too boring and predictable. ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 18, 2015, 07:28:00 PM
I like both.. Depends what mood im in lol. Would be nice to see more onboard only servers though.

I always enjoy riding juju's RCV onboard but for some reason the dash does not work anymore? Things like this put me off using onboard.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 18, 2015, 08:28:38 PM
Quote from: CapeDoctor on November 18, 2015, 06:11:14 PM
for me, probably about the same as JJS209's previous reply.
i use external(chase) view more because i can get a better idea visually of what the bike is doing, and this helps to compensate for the lack of 'feel' when playing on a PC as opposed to riding in reality.
If the feel/feedback from riding could be improved, be this via some sort of extra controller that provides accurate tactile feedback or something similar, then i would much prefer to ride in the real onboard view.
another issue for me is the default view position of the first person onboard view isn't the same as it might be in reality, at least for many of the bikes - i find the view to be too low, too close to the tank, and that it should be higher, as my forward view is quite hampered by this. i'm not talking about when the rider leans forward behind the fairing - for the most part, this is okay.
the problem with many of the bikes i've tried is that the 'upright' rider view is lower in first-person view, than it should be when looking from third-person view. hope i explained this okay?
and lastly, yes, the detailing also determines how much time i'm prepared to spend in on-board view - if the cockpit is crudely modelled, clocks not working, etc, then i won't spend more time in that view, and just go straight to third person.
other bikes which have well-detailed dash, etc - i am much happier to spend more time in this view.
finally, let me just say that the first-person view (the only one that we use in real life, lol) will provide a much more immersive sim experience than the external view, even if it is a bit trickier to master.
my $5, lol  ;D

Interesting comments on the view height. I just ran a quick test with the default 990 and that seems to be correct, 3rd person and onboard view both reflect the correct rider height. I also agree that some bikes are a bit odd, the RSW seems to give a very low viewpoint and i can only guess this is a function of the bike model dimensions and the way the rider pose is 'rigged'.

I also noted that the 3rd person view does not give a better track view, the corner entries are visible at the same distance away on the track even on uphill turns.

Strangely i get a better feel for the bike with onboard, especially bumpy sections, but obviously less warning if losing the rear. It is strange that 3rd person is generally reported to give faster lap times though, still trying to work out exactly why.

Nice to see we have a few other committed first person riders  :), like Matty i just find 3rd person a bit 'dull' compared to first person view  ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Stout Johnson on November 18, 2015, 08:50:08 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 18, 2015, 06:10:31 PM
My preference would be for onboard all the time but not if others are using 3rd person in a race. I compromise and now use 3rd person more. Its nice to see the bike and have more spatial awareness in a race.

Once VR is mainstream, there are hardcore servers with lots of similar minded players and the best-laps server distinguishes between different views I'm quite happy to compromise.

But I agree I wish all the Mod bike authors ensured the onboard view was correct. It still surprises me that onboard isn't the mainstream here really.
Could not agree more! Bascially, I use onboard view and I really think onboard should be the only view available for a simulation. Guys around here are even discussing about whether launch control or a sound slider should be made available or not - when it is allowed to use 3rd person view  ::) that just does not make sense. I hope there will be a change in policy in terms of view some time (even if I know the chances are slim).

As soon as I feel like continuing the Skeet skeet race events, I will continue to make them cockpit-view-only events. Not only is it the only realistic way of doing it on a simulator, it also made for more interesting races as it was a level playing field.

Speaking of this, it would be really good to have nice onboard views coming with the mod bikes. I remember Juju's Suzuki GSXR and the Ducati GP12 - they were real masterpieces because they put so much love in the cockpit design. But I really see the argument of C21 too - he is a physics modder, and he is doing a superb job in this area. But maybe some talented gfx guy would be willing to contribute? For me a bike mod is not really complete until the cockpit view is also nicely done.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: matty0l215 on November 18, 2015, 09:11:42 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 18, 2015, 08:50:08 PM

As soon as I feel like continuing the Skeet skeet race events, I will continue to make them cockpit-view-only events. Not only is it the only realistic way of doing it on a simulator, it also made for more interesting races as it was a level playing field.


Please please dear god be soon ;) :P  I loved them events, Brno on-board was one of the best races I've ever had!


And whatever happened to Juju? I miss his bikes.  :'(  They were really beautifully made and a joy to make skins for...
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 18, 2015, 09:34:40 PM
Only did one event since I been here - onboard at the old 78? Hockenheim. So fast! I find it very thrilling to race onboard there.  And not too difficult to learn the track either . Onboard takes more practice for sure.

Quote from: h106frp on November 18, 2015, 08:28:38 PM
I also noted that the 3rd person view does not give a better track view, the corner entries are visible at the same distance away on the track even on uphill turns.

Strangely i get a better feel for the bike with onboard, especially bumpy sections, but obviously less warning if losing the rear. It is strange that 3rd person is generally reported to give faster lap times though, still trying to work out exactly why.

Although apexes are about the same I cant see as much of the corner onboard as in 3rd P so the arc of the corner has to be memorised rather than seen. And to me this is the main reason 3rd P is faster. Its easier to get entry speed and angle setup before the corner if you can see the arc beforehand.
Although a really good onboard rider will match a really good 3rd P rider I am sure. I mean the bikes can only go so fast, irrespective of the view. I agree onboard on bumpy sections is better for 'feeling' what the bike can handle.

I need to invest in that Freetrack setup H and Max have tested, discussed and conquered - it will reduce the lack of spatial awareness a lot I think.
But it is not a good time for me to be dabbling in new stuff just now. Count me in for any Hardcore. ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: doNico on November 19, 2015, 12:57:38 AM
Quote from: h106frp on November 18, 2015, 08:28:38 PM
I also noted that the 3rd person view does not give a better track view, the corner entries are visible at the same distance away on the track even on uphill turns.

Strangely i get a better feel for the bike with onboard, especially bumpy sections, but obviously less warning if losing the rear. It is strange that 3rd person is generally reported to give faster lap times though, still trying to work out exactly why.

Nice to see we have a few other committed first person riders  :), like Matty i just find 3rd person a bit 'dull' compared to first person view  ;)

I guess the fester lap times are possible because of the rear wheel view. Onboard, as you mentioned before, your not able to control the rear wheel "directly" because you dont feel how far you can go (my opinion).
I tired onboard every now and than and i dont get a good feeling ... ok, im one of the guys stepping up from Milestone games to a simulation, i never got used to onboard do ...  i also have a better feel for the apex .. somehow ... i never hit the points i wanted with onboard... (dont laugh, im not hitting them in 3rd person anyways) but the feeling is just better.

~doN

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: doubledragoncc on November 19, 2015, 01:07:38 AM
You all scream and shout about wanting a real simulator and then you ride in 3rd person because its easier or woteva.........................

IRL you sit on the bike, not ride in a car behind it where you see more of the track etc etc, so why use 3rd person if you so badly want a realistic sim?

Those who use 3rd person have a technical advantage over those using 1st person so it makes racing unfair.

Why not just practice more in 1st person and make it better for all, then you will also have a more realistic sim straight away too.

Just my 2 cents

DD
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2015, 03:29:49 AM
But the physics stay the same no matter which view we use... I dont think 3rd person view has any advantage.. If you ride 3rd person most of the time, you probably wont be as fast with onboard view..  Just down to practice I think..
For racing online, the biggest problem (not really a problem though  ;)) is different abilities.. Some players are all over the shop, wobbling around, some players are consistantly banging in laps on or close to the racing line.. Which makes life much more simple.

To be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway? on some bikes/tracks it just makes me dizzy lol. The cockpit swings around the bottom of the screen just like all the other bike games lol. X

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Stout Johnson on November 19, 2015, 05:28:35 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2015, 03:29:49 AM
But the physics stay the same no matter which view we use... I dont think 3rd person view has any advantage.. If you ride 3rd person most of the time, you probably wont be as fast with onboard view..  Just down to practice I think..
Practice helps a lot, but even after 3 years of riding onboard view only, I am still faster in 3rd person view. That is also true for other guys I know. It depends on the track, but in most you just have a much better perception of the turns and on when to hit the apex. You also have a slightly elevated view, which makes perveiving the line a bit easier. Seeing the rear wheel makes is it a bit easier to perceive the limit. In races you also have the big advantage of seeing what is happening left, right and even close behind you. That may be the biggest advantage of all.
Racing wise, if you have a mixed field, then those guys in 3rd person view will be all over the place, trying to overtake aggresively even when there is not really space to overtake. That often results in crashes (and heated discussions). When you have guys on 1st person view only, the races are just more fair (you only try overtakes when you have a clear shot) and also closer in terms of times. The onboard view only races just seemed more like realistic races to me.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2015, 03:29:49 AM
To be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway?
Well, quite obviously you see it from the perspective you see it in real life. You should just not see what is happening left, right and behind you at the same time.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 19, 2015, 06:37:19 AM
Current barriers to a good on-board riding experience(in my opinion):
I think that the only problem with having a good experience with on-board views is simply the lack of feel and spatial awareness so that a rider is capable of making judgments about what is happening with the bike and other bikes around them.
A lot of that could be solved through a very good implementation of sound, and feel(through FFB on a controller). The only thing that can never be simulated viably is the forces(G-forces) you get while riding a bike, but even those can be substituted with feedback through the FFB in your controller to a certain degree.

Using a free-look system demonstrates spatial awareness problems in an obvious way - For example: When you come into a hairpin bend and look left into the apex you loose view(and therefore awareness) of your bike, and because there is no feedback to the position of the bike relative to the track and also no feel of what the bike is doing underneath you in this circumstance, it is very easy, when viewing to the front again to find that you have either overshot or undershot your racing line through the corner; and that's if your lucky.... a lot of times you will more than likely end-up crashing.

So if I were Piboso; as soon as I'd finished all the major development implementations and and sorted the bugs, I would then concentrate on implementing very VERY good sound and FFB systems; and they have to be superb systems to come anywhere near giving the feedback that a bike rider needs(for 1st person view riding) when lacking real-life vital feedback such as G-forces, feel and sound that are vital for a rider to keep aware of what the bike is doing underneath them.

Just my thoughts on barriers to an excellent 1st person view riding experience.  ;)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 19, 2015, 07:25:54 AM
a big + 1 from me, Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: C21 on November 19, 2015, 07:31:57 AM
QuoteSpeaking of this, it would be really good to have nice onboard views coming with the mod bikes. I remember Juju's Suzuki GSXR and the Ducati GP12 - they were real masterpieces because they put so much love in the cockpit design. But I really see the argument of C21 too - he is a physics modder, and he is doing a superb job in this area. But maybe some talented gfx guy would be willing to contribute? For me a bike mod is not really complete until the cockpit view is also nicely done.
Fully agree on that.
A bike mod is only complete if it works 100% in 3rd and 1st person view with full working instruments.
I really like full working dash but it´s even more complex to do that. If i knew more about that stuff i surely develop all bike mods including working dash. But our Team has a member for that stuff and we will try to fully serve a 100% onboard view experience.
I´m always disappointed if a bike is beautifully modelled and when switching to 1st person you look at a nonworking dash or a dash used from another bike.

QuoteYou all scream and shout about wanting a real simulator and then you ride in 3rd person because its easier or woteva
I tried 1st person more than you imagine but i really don´t like the way it is simulated.
As i race(d) in real life the simulated onboard view (without Track IR AND the lack of full force feedback!) is totally inaceptable for me.
Hawk describes the situation 100%. I fully agree on that exellent statment!

I had countless crashs in onboard view and i do not use it anymore (only for a few seconds to check and adjust the rider view on the mod bikes).. i really hate to ride in 1st person with the way it is simulated right now.
For comparison: i only crashed two times in real life on a race track and never on the street...so in my opinion i know how to ride a bike in real life (1st person) but i never get comfortable with 1st person in every motorcycle game a played (gp500, SBK00, SBK01). Maybe this will change with Oculus Rift  :o

QuoteTo be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway? on some bikes/tracks it just makes me dizzy lol. The cockpit swings around the bottom of the screen just like all the other bike games lol.
+100000

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 08:22:06 AM
I use 3rd person 99% of the time. Seeing how the bike behaves is just a big plus for me (I know, I'm a nerd).

It's a general opinion that 3rd person is faster and I quite agree: it allows you to know more precisely where your wheels are and I'd tend to think (but i have no proof of that) that it's easier for your brain to follow what's happening visually in 3rd person than in 1st person. In some turns however (slow tight ones), 1st person seems kinda easier.

I don't think 1st person view is unusable: as often with GPB, practice practice practice. There are two 1st person views: the "real" one and an additional one that "moves around a bit less" and that is probably easier to get accustomed to if you're making the jump from 3rd person.

+1 for the modders taking the time to make 1st person view working fine (nice 3d model, dash/instruments working, etc).

And if you're into 1st person view, you really want to try out head tracking (e.g. EDtracker + opentrack): it really feels better.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 18, 2015, 08:50:08 PM
Guys around here are even discussing about whether launch control or a sound slider should be made available or not - when it is allowed to use 3rd person view  ::) that just does not make sense. I hope there will be a change in policy in terms of view some time (even if I know the chances are slim).
Do you realize that if 1st person view is enforced, out of 100 potential new customers, GPB will probably lose 90 or more ?
Don't get me wrong, I do see your point and if 1st person was the only alternative, I'd be using it. But ...

If we want to promote 1st person, on top of the "1st person view only" events, maybe one possibility is to have GPB track records (on GPB stats pages, on Ali's Best Laps service) separated for 1st and 3rd person. This implies some simple changes: GPB has to decide if a lap was done in 1st or 3rd person view and send out the information in the live timing and to the GPB records server.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 08:46:28 AM
I do believe that idea was discussed in some depth this year,  but it didn't make a stealthy silent entry into B7. Maybe what that needs is a dedicated wish list post. Hmmmmmmm........
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 08:58:07 AM
It would be nice to be able to have an option that lets the client side choose to 'lock' the view as either onboard or 3rd person during a session rather than just have the server side 'hardcore' option then this info could be transmitted with the timing data.

It would be interesting to compare the different view laptimes statistically 

I do use the head tracker exclusively now so i am freed of the 'wildly swinging view' problem, i just look where i choose and it works very well in B7, really do not have a problem with orientation  :) 

Trying to get an update on EDtracker wireless, hopefully it will be available soon;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 09:06:37 AM
Quote from: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 08:58:07 AM
It would be nice to be able to have an option that lets the client side choose to 'lock' the view as either onboard or 3rd person during a session rather than just have the server side 'hardcore' option
Uh, not sure I understand what you mean: we don't need it on client side. On client side you just chose your view (if the server allows you to do so).
Then, if during a lap you use 3rd person for even only 1sec, GPB flags the lap as done in "3rd person" and sends the lap time and the lap's view type out to the stats servers.

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 09:29:17 AM
I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions. 
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Quote from: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 09:29:17 AM
I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions.
If what I'm suggesting is implemented, there's no way of cheating.

Case 1: server with no view restriction (or offline session)
You can use whichever view you want. If a lap starts in 1st person and during the whole lap the view is not changed, GPB considers this as a "1st person" lap.
In any other case (lap starting in 3rd person or starting in 1st person but changing to 3rd somewhere) the lap is considered "3rd person".

Case 2: server that enforces 1st person
Here of course you are forced into 1st person, no way to use 3rd. GPB can still determine if the lap is 1st or 3rd person as described above (of course it will end up always in 1st person laps).

So an hotlap server will not enforce 1st person, but lap times for 1st and 3rd person will be kept separate. Servers will only enforce 1st person for event that absolutely want no 3rd person players.

No way to cheat, no need for a client side lock option.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 09:57:24 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Quote from: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 09:29:17 AM
I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions.
If what I'm suggesting is implemented, there's no way of cheating.

Case 1: server with no view restriction (or offline session)
You can use whichever view you want. If a lap starts in 1st person and during the whole lap the view is not changed, GPB considers this as a "1st person" lap.
In any other case (lap starting in 3rd person or starting in 1st person but changing to 3rd somewhere) the lap is considered "3rd person".

Case 2: server that enforces 1st person
Here of course you are forced into 1st person, no way to use 3rd. GPB can still determine if the lap is 1st or 3rd person as described above (of course it will end up always in 1st person laps).

So an hotlap server will not enforce 1st person, but lap times for 1st and 3rd person will be kept separate. Servers will only enforce 1st person for event that absolutely want no 3rd person players.

No way to cheat, no need for a client side lock option.

:)  Suggest this concept goes to the wishlist to be considered by PB
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
Yes and to be fair it has also been discussed before not that long ago ( I'm turning into Jamoz).
For me I would like all the options in the offline settings to be individually selectable in the server dedicated.ini.

At the moment there aren't enough selectable options.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 11:18:55 AM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
Yes and to be fair it has also been discussed before not that long ago ( I'm turning into Jamoz).
I don't remember a discussion about separating stats for 1st/3rd person view ... but maybe it's just my memory failing miserably.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
For me I would like all the options in the offline settings to be individually selectable in the server dedicated.ini.

At the moment there aren't enough selectable options.
Example ?
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 11:32:55 AM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:12:32 AM
Yes and to be fair it has also been discussed before not that long ago ( I'm turning into Jamoz).
For me I would like all the options in the offline settings to be individually selectable in the server dedicated.ini.

At the moment there aren't enough selectable options.

Quick scan of the wishlist nothing on this subject, i do not think it was ever actually proposed as a game improvement.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
Yeh there was - it also went on to ask Ali if it was something that could be implemented but went dead when it was realised the servers don't send out the info. I might dig out the reference in fact here is one of the bits admittedly a long time ago (8 weeks ROFL). Somewhere on here was me saying about having individual dedicated.ini settings too for the server.
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1117.msg39505#msg39505

So unless we knock up a specific entry in the wishlist thread how can we expect PiB to remember if we can't lol.

Anyway, if the only place the information is shown is on the Best Laps server then if Ali won't implement it then having it as an option would still be great for race events but limited to that.

Other examples for the dedicated ini - any of the 'assists' (eg auto lean/wheeling help/clutch shenanigans) would be nice to individually choose what is and isn't allowed on the server.

H - exactly it was discussed but not wish listed, as I suggested. I think I didn't do it due to the lack of interest in riding 1st P anyway

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 11:49:29 AM
It would be a big improvement to the wishlist if one of the admins could somehow sort the 'completed wishes' into another archive area so that only the outstanding ones remained in the list, its already 10 pages long and i noticed quite a few of the older ones have been added/resolved for B7. Should i add this request to the wishlist though?  ::)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 11:57:28 AM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
Anyway, if the only place the information is shown is on the Best Laps server then if Ali won't implement it then having it as an option would still be great for race events but limited to that.
There's also the GPB stats page: http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php (http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 11:40:55 AM
Other examples for the dedicated ini - any of the 'assists' (eg auto lean/wheeling help/clutch shenanigans) would be nice to individually choose what is and isn't allowed on the server.
I see little value in that, as any aid makes you slower.  For me what we have now (force_cockpit = 0/1 and no_aids = 0/1) does the job OK.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 19, 2015, 12:16:33 PM
Maybe assists make you slower but why should someone using no assists be allowed to have the easy consistency in a race when a non-assisted person is working their balls off to get round. Its all about potential of mistakes not fastest laps ( in a race).

A visual interpretation - would you be happy using the left controller while others use the right? LOL "exaggeration for effect" is my Motto
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2ur5kcg.gif)

For hotlapping its fine as it is - maybe with the servers outputting view mode for the results.  But hot lapping is like qualifying - hardly the main event.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Stout Johnson on November 19, 2015, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 19, 2015, 06:37:19 AM
[...]A lot of that could be solved through a very good implementation of sound, and feel(through FFB on a controller). The only thing that can never be simulated viably is the forces(G-forces) you get while riding a bike, but even those can be substituted with feedback through the FFB in your controller to a certain degree.

Using a free-look system demonstrates spatial awareness problems in an obvious way - For example: When you come into a hairpin bend and look left into the apex you loose view(and therefore awareness) of your bike, and because there is no feedback to the position of the bike relative to the track and also no feel of what the bike is doing underneath you in this circumstance, it is very easy, when viewing to the front again to find that you have either overshot or undershot your racing line through the corner; and that's if your lucky.... a lot of times you will more than likely end-up crashing.

So if I were Piboso; as soon as I'd finished all the major development implementations and and sorted the bugs, I would then concentrate on implementing very VERY good sound and FFB systems; and they have to be superb systems to come anywhere near giving the feedback that a bike rider needs(for 1st person view riding) when lacking real-life vital feedback such as G-forces, feel and sound that are vital for a rider to keep aware of what the bike is doing underneath them.

Just my thoughts on barriers to an excellent 1st person view riding experience.  ;)
Well put words mate, totally agree. I am a supporter of onboard view already, but I am with you on the things you mentioned: they would make onboard view that much more rewarding!

Quote from: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 08:22:06 AM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 18, 2015, 08:50:08 PM
Guys around here are even discussing about whether launch control or a sound slider should be made available or not - when it is allowed to use 3rd person view  ::) that just does not make sense. I hope there will be a change in policy in terms of view some time (even if I know the chances are slim).
Do you realize that if 1st person view is enforced, out of 100 potential new customers, GPB will probably lose 90 or more ?
Don't get me wrong, I do see your point and if 1st person was the only alternative, I'd be using it. But ...
I am well aware of that, that is why I wrote that I know the chances are slim. And I much rather have GPB as it is (with 3rd person view in order to widen the customer appeal) than not having GPB at all ;) But it is a concession towards arcade, that's just what it is - Period. And I do not understand other discussions which are far from a definite arcade-approach but still are being discussed (sound slider, launch control) while we do allow 3rd person view. That's the whole point.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 09:35:35 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 19, 2015, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 19, 2015, 08:22:06 AM
Do you realize that if 1st person view is enforced, out of 100 potential new customers, GPB will probably lose 90 or more ?
Don't get me wrong, I do see your point and if 1st person was the only alternative, I'd be using it. But ...
I am well aware of that, that is why I wrote that I know the chances are slim. And I much rather have GPB as it is (with 3rd person view in order to widen the customer appeal) than not having GPB at all ;) But it is a concession towards arcade, that's just what it is - Period.
We agree.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on November 19, 2015, 08:19:36 PM
And I do not understand other discussions which are far from a definite arcade-approach but still are being discussed (sound slider, launch control) while we do allow 3rd person view. That's the whole point.
It's simple though: these other concessions are discussed because they don't cause customers to run away if they are/are not implemented, whichever decision is taken on them.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2015, 09:56:46 PM
I do like using the onboard view though! But to me its just a different style of play.. Im around 1sec slower using onboard but with plenty of practice I think I could match my own pb laptimes. Im all for simulation and realism but apart from gpbikes.. Im not a hardcore ''sim racer'' .. Its more about the bike physics and handling for me..

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 10:04:19 PM
Slightly back on thread its nice to see the poll indicates an even spread of preference for forum members so far :)

Hopefully this will encourage the modders that they have a good appreciative audience for a realistic onbike view  :)

Slightly back off thread, i have noticed in the media section that for non edited movie type laps the onbike view seems very popular for replays in preference to 3rd person ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 19, 2015, 10:14:37 PM
Quote from: h106frp on November 19, 2015, 10:04:19 PM

Slightly back off thread, i have noticed in the media section that for non edited movie type laps the onbike view seems very popular for replays in preference to 3rd person ;)

Haha yeah even if I do some laps in 3rd person I prefer to record the replay in nose camera! Or just ride onboard.. Its all about the end result!! Like riding with a go-pro camera.. You watch it when you get back  ;) although I use 3rd person, I dont actually like it.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: davidboda46 on November 20, 2015, 10:48:28 AM
Always onboard, custum Max Hud helmet (stole the textures from MotoGP-game  :P ).
(Old pic but you get the idea)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3705/13907905121_3c9c3b6a3c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB)screen067 (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB) by David (https://www.flickr.com/photos/david46/), on Flickr

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 20, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Hmmm..... I find it interesting that although in the poll results we seem to have more riders saying they ride 100% 1st person view all the time and yet on-board race events seem to struggle to get the participation that 3rd person view events get?

I have to ask why all these 1st person view only riders don't seem to want to join online race events? You should... It's great fun! Plus that would also encourage others to move over to 1st person view riding if the majority of riders only participated in on-board view only events.  ;D

The power is in your hands to make it happen.  ;) 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: davidboda46 on November 20, 2015, 12:15:02 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 20, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Hmmm..... I find it interesting that although in the poll results we seem to have more riders saying they ride 100% 1st person view all the time and yet on-board race events seem to struggle to get the participation that 3rd person view events get?

I have to ask why all these 1st person view only riders don't seem to want to join online race events? You should... It's great fun! Plus that would also encourage others to move over to 1st person view riding if the majority of riders only participated in on-board view only events.  ;D

The power is in your hands to make it happen.  ;) 8)

Hawk.

I don't join race events because of "core.exe" and other stability issues (lag etc). If those things will be sorted, then I will definitely race online, both in 1st p-view and "open view"-events. Can't speak for other 1stPV-riders though... 

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46 
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 20, 2015, 12:41:27 PM
Quote from: Hawk on November 20, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
Hmmm..... I find it interesting that although in the poll results we seem to have more riders saying they ride 100% 1st person view all the time and yet on-board race events seem to struggle to get the participation that 3rd person view events get?

I have to ask why all these 1st person view only riders don't seem to want to join online race events? You should... It's great fun! Plus that would also encourage others to move over to 1st person view riding if the majority of riders only participated in on-board view only events.  ;D

The power is in your hands to make it happen.  ;) 8)

Hawk.

I wondered the same thing too Hawker. 24 possible riders and we got 6 with some who didn't like it last 1st P race lol. Nobody has to race of course, its just a shame  :'(
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 20, 2015, 12:59:37 PM
It would be nice to observe the response to a hotlap 1P event  ;)

Choice of track is important for starting with 1P, featureless flat tracks are not the easiest to remember your way around and where the turn in points are. Tracks with psychedelic track surfaces can get distressing after a while as well  :o

Only just getting used to having other traffic around as well - i think when you have a lot of 3P riders around they forget that you cannot see them until after they show you a front wheel and can try and force past when you would not really expect it to happen.

Do 'blue flags' operate for races?

I have enjoyed wobbling around some of the hotlap events recently, but never liked Cadwell (feels about as wide as my garden path) and the issues with the track surface on the 'normal' line at Combe make it difficult to enjoy in 1P (for me anyway), but it should be excellent once resurfaced.

The other issue is the 'old' respawn - i think a lot of people were/are put off by the fact you could easily ruin someone race - even as a backmarker. It should be better now but some tracks still have you materializing in the middle of the track.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 20, 2015, 01:09:04 PM
Yeh I cannot race at Suzuka due to the track surface causes me eye issues,

I am worried about a resurface of Castle Comb to be honest I think it ha a lot of character and some of the issues associated with ridges will be lessened by B8 up/downhill fixes.

Yep 3rd P players need to know a 1st P player with no headtrack/3 screen setup is vulnerable - I always use analogue head movement to be more spatially aware but it isn't ideal.

The new respawn wont make you spawn anywhere different but it wont respawn when other players are nearby. So the issue of crashing at respawn has gone even if in the middle of the track (but needs its effect testing in a race - you may never get back on!).
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 20, 2015, 02:11:10 PM
it's sad that i just can't seem to connect at all since b7, it's upsetting to hear how you guys are lacking for online competitors, and i'd love to join so badly - really getting a bit dull now, racing by myself offline only....
i honestly don't mind under what conditions, just being able to join when there's others around would be awesome for me.
oh well...here's hoping i can get it right someday....  ::)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 20, 2015, 02:23:14 PM
Yes Cape bad news  :(. If you cannot get on a server in your own country with your countrymen then there MUST be something wrong with your setup/internet (as you assume - internet needs a boost - get on that phone!). 

Why don't you make a server and let us know and we can see if we can get on it???????  :o
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 20, 2015, 02:27:05 PM
will try that over the weekend, Nick.
busy today, but will give a headsup once i set it up   ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 20, 2015, 02:28:11 PM
Perfick - if you need me fast send me a PM I will get that on my phone and I can pretty much drop everything (except pants) to be there.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: CapeDoctor on November 20, 2015, 03:10:40 PM
by all means, hold onto your pants, lol  ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 20, 2015, 04:41:29 PM
Quote from: davidboda46 on November 20, 2015, 10:48:28 AM
Always onboard, custum Max Hud helmet (stole the textures from MotoGP-game  :P ).
(Old pic but you get the idea)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3705/13907905121_3c9c3b6a3c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB)screen067 (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB) by David (https://www.flickr.com/photos/david46/), on Flickr

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

Cool! is that just a picture or do you actually have the gp textures on the track?
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Blackheart on November 20, 2015, 05:31:49 PM
I use both, but in multiplayer always 3p, I like to see in real time my skins  ;D and in singleplayer always 1p...  I do not see that's wrong to use both in a simulator.  ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: davidboda46 on November 20, 2015, 06:39:04 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 20, 2015, 04:41:29 PM
Quote from: davidboda46 on November 20, 2015, 10:48:28 AM
Always onboard, custum Max Hud helmet (stole the textures from MotoGP-game  :P ).
(Old pic but you get the idea)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3705/13907905121_3c9c3b6a3c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB)screen067 (https://flic.kr/p/nbZDDB) by David (https://www.flickr.com/photos/david46/), on Flickr

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

Cool! is that just a picture or do you actually have the gp textures on the track?

I do. :) In the Maxhub_data folder you'll find the image files "helmet-bot" and "helmet-top". Use them as base (backup original files incase something goes wrong), open in photoshop or something similar and play around. :) For the textures, I took a screenshot of MotoGP ingame, removed everything except the helmet part and then I inserted the extracted top and bottom part respective Maxhud top and bottom part. Originally I wanted to have texture from a real helmet but it is impossible to find good photos (or take them, for me at least :) ). And with Maxhub you can lower or raise them individually so you don't have to adjust the image itself if you want to change their position. Maxhub is bloody brilliant!

Video: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1075.msg41018#msg41018 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1075.msg41018#msg41018)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 20, 2015, 10:15:13 PM
Oh dear I find things interesting then start playing but I couldn't figure how to save a TGA with the white bit transparent. FAIL.  ::)

(http://i66.tinypic.com/2dv74fq.jpg)

LOL  8)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: davidboda46 on November 21, 2015, 01:11:04 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: IsacHunter on November 25, 2015, 11:45:52 AM
I use 100 % onboard with a g27 wheel set on 37% ffb and 82 degrees of rotation
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 25, 2015, 11:51:59 AM
Well the voting closed with onboard being slightly ahead, i suppose the 'use both' onboard/3rd person split might balance it out a bit but it would seem that hardcore simulation mode has a decent following among forum members.

Which will probably lead me to conduct another different poll out of further curiosity...  ;)

Thanks for the input, i must admit i was surprised at the result  8)

Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 11:55:58 AM
I'm more surprised (if not scared) by the very low number of votes  :-\
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 12:00:57 PM
I thought it was quite high compared to previous polls lol!

But I don't believe it, I think the question was not understood lol. Pessimistic day for me it seems  ::)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 25, 2015, 12:41:21 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 11:55:58 AM
I'm more surprised (if not scared) by the very low number of votes  :-\

I think the low number of votes comes from 2 things:

  • There could be quite a large number of non-English speaking forum members and subsequently didn't understand the meaning of the poll?
  • We have a core number of forum members(probably around 15 - 25 members at very best) that are active on a daily/weekly basis, but the majority of members of the forum seem to only login once in a while to probably see if GPB has made any big progressions in development? I think most are probably awaiting a bug-free GPB version 1.0 before they feel they can get deeply, or should I say, "enthusiastically" involved with online racing with GPB?

I therefore put it forward that most of the forum membership probably have not even seen this poll? Hence the relatively low number of votes compared to the total forum membership.

But the current end result of the poll has surprised me considering that a good few server admins in the past have tried to promote 1st person race events with very little enthusiasm from GPB users.... So I have to ask, "Why is this so when most are saying that they ride 100% 1st person view only?" Something doesn't add-up here guys.  :P

"Actions really do speak louder than words"..... So it seems to me, from all the evidence, that most are just saying they ride only in 1st person view when they actually do not?
I think a truer result would've probably stated that majority ride both 1st and 3rd person views.... That result would've made sense when you take into consideration the real evidence as a whole and the lack of participation in any 1st person events when held.  :)

So c'mon guys! Lets see all 1st person riders in the next 1st person only event and support the events you want to see! ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 25, 2015, 12:46:01 PM
It would seem even in these modern politically correct and liberal times;

''Real men (and women) only ride first person'' - at least thats all we will admit to in public anyway  ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 25, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
Quote from: h106frp on November 25, 2015, 12:46:01 PM
It would seem even in these modern politically correct and liberal times;

''Real men (and women) only ride first person'' - at least that's all we will admit to in public anyway  ;)

I think you've "hit the nail on the head" there H. ;D

Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 01:06:32 PM
they do haha

I voted both, because even if my preference is 1st Person I also want to race with others and see my skins and stuff and I have compromised my hardline views to get the most out of this sim. (I didn't think anyone used 3rd person when I was a noob (noobier) and I did all the M3 championship in 1st person lol. Now I use that as my excuse for coming at the back each race).

I think if people are saying they use 1st person all the time because they are embarrassed to say otherwise, we have some sorry-ass people here lol.
(http://www.caterer.com/careers-advice/life-at-work/~/media/ct/jobseekers/careers-advice/life%20at%20work/loser-2.ashx)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 01:51:57 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 01:06:32 PM
I think if people are saying they use 1st person all the time because they are embarrassed to say otherwise, we have some sorry-ass people here lol.
I can grant you that, given the number of users we have here, the probability of the above event is equal to 1 :)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Desteban on November 25, 2015, 02:02:52 PM
Cry me a river...

3rd person is for girls, last time I checked I still had my balls so...
I ride onboard and I am pretty sure I know of a few others who do too.




Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 25, 2015, 02:11:57 PM
I have dabbled in 1st person view riding, even worked on riding with Direct-Steer-with-Torque with Klax's tuition(If you think 1st person is hard then DST is SUPER HARD! Lol. ), but I would like to see more DST servers when GPB is more developed, because when you really start to get the feel for DST there is no better feeling of fulfilment and achievement; just that at the time there was still a few bugs that made it frustrating to ride with DST; not sure if those bugs have been ironed out yet either?

But yeah.... I voted for 3rd person all the time for me because 99% of the time I have ridden with 3rd person view even though I have participated in most 1st person events in the past....
But I really would like to see 1st person and particularly DST become "THE" way to control and participate in online events. I think that would be great!  ;D ;D 8).

But I think above all.... The barriers to the majority riding in 1st person is the lack of a riders spatial awareness and rider controller feedback, be they sound cues or movement cues to know what the bike is doing underneath you, and the sheer amount of time to practice to keep your 1st person skills well honed is a drawback to this type of riding.

Also just as important I feel is the need for a proper quality motorcycle controller-set-up at the right price; something I feel DD is determined to crack and has come up with fantastic results in that area. Keep up the great work DD!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
PS @ Desteban: I'd regard DST as the pinnacle of controlling GPB not 1st person view...... Master DST, and only then will you be a man my son! Hehe!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Desteban on November 25, 2015, 02:50:57 PM
There you have it people, DST is the new "Hardcore" no need to hide your 3rd person view preferences anymore since it is as far away from DST difficulty as is onboard view.  ;D


Been joking anyway, I started with 3rd person and couldn't ride then I switched to onboard and it worked a lot better. So all preference I think  ;)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 02:54:08 PM
heehee  ;D

DST is more Hardcore than riding my real bikes.  :o
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 03:10:18 PM
Pfff ... I use rider view + DST, on a real bike connected to GPB, wearing leathers and helmet, air coditioning at 35deg (to simulate sepang-like conditions) and I occasionally ask my wife to throw an half-thawed chicken at my head. I wish I had more people playing with these exact conditions, instead of teenagers with joypads  ;D

Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 02:54:08 PM
DST is more Hardcore than riding my real bikes.  :o
Lol !!

Desteban, stop your silly real life racing and come play with the real men on GPB with DST :) :)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: BOBR6 84 on November 25, 2015, 03:32:05 PM
Lol!!!

And Desteban is right! 3rd person is for girls... I use 3rd person mainly! 1st person view makes me feel sick.. Like a big girl pffft  ::) :(
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
I like big girls,

but the facts speak for themselves,.....IRL  there are lots of girls racing real bikes.......in GPB there are none.
I know there was one but it was too hard for her (alledgedly). <cough>

You can't argue with statistics they are always right.  ;)

I shall await the response pain......

Edit: If a girl comes and uses DST I will have to rethink this.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 03:50:38 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
Edit: If a girl comes and uses DST I will have to rethink this.
Enough if Hawk undergoes a little surgery ?
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 03:54:07 PM
hahaha OMG nobody mention 2 or 4 strokes or the thread is lost.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 04:03:27 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 03:54:07 PM
hahaha OMG nobody mention 2 or 4 strokes or the thread is lost.
Thread ? Which thread ?
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Desteban on November 25, 2015, 04:06:38 PM
(http://cdn.ymaservices.com/editorial_service/media/images/000/054/977/original/wellthatescalatedquicklymeme.png.png?1406851523)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: Hawk on November 25, 2015, 04:29:05 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 03:50:38 PM
Quote from: Napalm Nick on November 25, 2015, 03:46:21 PM
Edit: If a girl comes and uses DST I will have to rethink this.
Enough if Hawk undergoes a little surgery ?

:o :o  Nhaarr.... I'll take a rain-check on that idea Max. Lol!  ;D

Hawk.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: h106frp on November 25, 2015, 04:45:28 PM
Going hardcore and no turning back !:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6SEqRUIjAwc/VlXkvpMJl5I/AAAAAAAAAew/NMAdW6QFEbk/w189-h224-no/hardcoreKB.jpg)

So don't call me Shirley, or anything with a \/ in it for that matter (didnt think that plan through)  ;)  ::)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: HornetMaX on November 25, 2015, 06:39:15 PM
Quote from: h106frp on November 25, 2015, 04:45:28 PM
Going hardcore and no turning back !:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6SEqRUIjAwc/VlXkvpMJl5I/AAAAAAAAAew/NMAdW6QFEbk/w189-h224-no/hardcoreKB.jpg)

So don't call me Shirley, or anything with a \/ in it for that matter (didnt think that plan through)  ;)  ::)
Can't be hardcore, Shirley. That's a non-mechanical keyboard :)
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: -aGy- on November 26, 2015, 06:59:18 AM
100% onboard of course because its a sim. if you want arcade feeling you play chase view or milestones shit games. i prefer disabling the 3rd person view.
Title: Re: Which view do you use?
Post by: finpower on November 26, 2015, 08:38:47 AM
Wrote 6 pages, which view be driven sollten.gähn. ::)

there is a key on the keyboard you can press which view you want to go. 8)

but everyone should go as it amuses him. :)

has still not been found? :o