PiBoSo Official Forum

World Racing Series => General Discussion => Topic started by: bison160 on April 22, 2016, 05:01:11 AM

Title: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: bison160 on April 22, 2016, 05:01:11 AM
Well Rfactor is seeing people leave like no other thanks to a cheating vulnerability that has been exposed. Not going to go into it but to s of people have been caught using it. It has caused quite the stir in the RF community and many are saying they are done. Now is the time to make WRS a viable option for THE dirt sim moving forward.

Looks like you may have finally caught a break PiBoSo! Let's do this!
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 06:40:00 AM
As soon as WRS (or whichever other game) becomes as popular as rFactor, cheats will join the party.
Sad but inevitable.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: matty0l215 on April 22, 2016, 09:29:06 AM
Can you really cheat this game? Nobodys found a way so far surley. Defenetly not in GP Bikes .
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: matty0l215 on April 22, 2016, 09:29:06 AM
Can you really cheat this game? Nobodys found a way so far surley. Defenetly not in GP Bikes .
Just because nobody has tried.

If I had to bet if GPB is more or less protected than rFactor, I'd surely put the money on rFactor (it's not a critic to GPB, of course).
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 09:52:58 AM
Quote from: matty0l215 on April 22, 2016, 09:29:06 AM
Can you really cheat this game? Nobodys found a way so far surley. Defenetly not in GP Bikes .
Just because nobody has tried.

If I had to bet if GPB is more or less protected than rFactor, I'd surely put the money on rFactor (it's not a critic to GPB, of course).

And you would lose the bet, for two simple reasons:
1) WRS has been designed from the start to avoid cheating
2) WRS, unlike rFactor, is still under development, and this means that it's possible to integrate countermeasures if someone tries to cheat
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 10:28:56 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:14:01 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 09:52:58 AM
If I had to bet if GPB is more or less protected than rFactor, I'd surely put the money on rFactor (it's not a critic to GPB, of course).

And you would lose the bet, for two simple reasons:
1) WRS has been designed from the start to avoid cheating
2) WRS, unlike rFactor, is still under development, and this means that it's possible to integrate countermeasures if someone tries to cheat
Losing bets happens, it's part of the game. I'd still take it though.

Point 1, nice to hear, but rFactor would just say the same.
Point 2 is mooth, sorry. Once WRS is in v1, it will be in the same situation as rFactor. Nothing prevents rFactor from sending out a patch if they want.
And by the way you're implicitly saying that the countermeasures are not yet in WRS ... which kind of proves my point.

But if people drop rFactor for WRS I'm anything but sad :)
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: Hawk on April 22, 2016, 10:36:32 AM
They say these RAM cheats are undetectable? Why is that?
Couldn't the sim periodically check certain values in RAM against the same value in the protected original files to check if there is anything fishy going on in RAM memory?

Cheats should be strung up by their balls as well as being named and shamed in the sim community...

Cheats make my blood boil big time!  >:( >:(

Hawk.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 10:39:02 AM
Quote from: Hawk on April 22, 2016, 10:36:32 AM
Cheats should be strung up by their balls as well as being named and shamed in the sim community...
Agreed.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 10:28:56 AM
Point 1, nice to hear, but rFactor would just say the same.

???
Do you have info to say that ISI designed rFactor with cheating in mind? Or are you implying that all developers just straight up lie? ???

Quote
Point 2 is mooth, sorry. Once WRS is in v1, it will be in the same situation as rFactor. Nothing prevents rFactor from sending out a patch if they want.
And by the way you're implicitly saying that the countermeasures are not yet in WRS ... which kind of proves my point.

No.
The message should be read as: even if cheaters find a way to exploit WRS ( and this is unlikely ), a patch can be released.
ISI will not send out a patch for rFactor1, since they moved to rFactor2.
bison160 is talking about dirt, and the dirt community is still on rFactor1.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:50:20 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 10:28:56 AM
Point 1, nice to hear, but rFactor would just say the same.

???
Do you have info to say that ISI designed rFactor with cheating in mind? Or are you implying that all developers just straight up lie? ???
Some developers lie for sure. But mostly, all the commercials, marketing and PR people lie. It's their job :)
No developer of a large scale game with online capability will ever come out and say "No, our game was not designed keeping cheating in mind. We forgot that, sorry.".

Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:50:20 AM
The message should be read as: even if cheaters find a way to exploit WRS ( and this is unlikely ), a patch can be released.
ISI will not send out a patch for rFactor1, since they moved to rFactor2.
It's all up to them and you could be in the same situation if you ever decide to release WRS 1 and then do a major overhaul for a WRS 2 (or even release WRS and after a while stop support for whichever reason). I'm not saying what you said is wrong, I'm just saying it's not a big argument for not taking the bet.

I'd go softly with statements about how strong WRS is: it has been proved in the past that this just attracts hackers that inevitably cracks the thing wide open (and I'm not talking games only here, but much heavier stuff).

@Hawk: if you want to check a value in RAM, against what will you check it ? Another copy of it in RAM ? That wouldn't help a lot.
Against a value in a file ? That's slow and the file could be modified on the fly too (eventually after the initial read).
There are things that can be done, but unfortunately hackers are good at what they do. Very good.
Most of the time I blame them less than the stupid players that do pay for a hack: at least a hacker has some technical skills.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 11:05:59 AM
I'd go softly with statements about how strong WRS is: it has been proved in the past that this just attracts hackers that inevitably cracks the thing wide open (and I'm not talking games only here, but much heavier stuff).

:facepalm:
Hopefully you understand how annoying you are with your attitude, treating everyone as liars or morons...  ::)
Of course WRS or any other simulator / game would be a piece of cake for any serious hacker. The point of "this is unlikely" is that it is very unlikely that hackers will even bother to try to hack WRS and, even if they do, they will find some resistance.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: Hawk on April 22, 2016, 11:19:10 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 11:05:59 AM

@Hawk: if you want to check a value in RAM, against what will you check it ? Another copy of it in RAM ? That wouldn't help a lot.
Against a value in a file ? That's slow and the file could be modified on the fly too (eventually after the initial read).
There are things that can be done, but unfortunately hackers are good at what they do. Very good.
Most of the time I blame them less than the stupid players that do pay for a hack: at least a hacker has some technical skills.

I'd have thought that if a dev programmed the checking on a lesser used thread(multi-thread programming) it surely wouldn't have any noticable slowing effect on the whole app?

Also if the original files have a signature that would change if any alterations are made to them, then surely the original files can be relied on for a comparison of any changes in RAM - I'm talking about comparing current simulated controller values(ie, brake controller input values) against the base sim formula factors(that stay the same) and see what the resultant value should be compared to what the value was shown in the running game? Just ideas off the top of my head with little knowledge of how things work in programming in reality.  ;) :)

EDIT: In effect a simulation within a simulation but only on a small part of the simulation run just periodically and randomly in the background to compare resultant values that the user has input against the value the background sim results show from original data.

Hawk.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 11:38:03 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
:facepalm:
Hopefully you understand how annoying you are with your attitude, treating everyone as liars or morons...  ::)
Yawn. Where exactly I treated you as a moron ? Nah, don't bother, it's OK. Another friendly poke I guess.

Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
The point of "this is unlikely" is that it is very unlikely that hackers will even bother to try to hack WRS and, even if they do, they will find some resistance.
All good then. But your original statement was a bit different (or at least could easily be interpreted differently):

Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:50:20 AM
The message should be read as: even if cheaters find a way to exploit WRS ( and this is unlikely ), a patch can be released.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 12:07:56 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 11:38:03 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
:facepalm:
Hopefully you understand how annoying you are with your attitude, treating everyone as liars or morons...  ::)
Yawn. Where exactly I treated you as a moron ? Nah, don't bother, it's OK. Another friendly poke I guess.

Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 11:18:56 AM
The point of "this is unlikely" is that it is very unlikely that hackers will even bother to try to hack WRS and, even if they do, they will find some resistance.
All good then. But your original statement was a bit different (or at least could easily be interpreted differently):

Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 10:50:20 AM
The message should be read as: even if cheaters find a way to exploit WRS ( and this is unlikely ), a patch can be released.

You are treating others like morons when you assume that no one else understands how cheaters and hackers work.
Anyway, this conversation is just a waste of time. The focus for me must be on releasing WRS beta9, not replying to someone who seems to entertain himself with pointless forum discussions.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: HornetMaX on April 22, 2016, 12:17:41 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on April 22, 2016, 12:07:56 PM
You are treating others like morons when you assume that no one else understands how cheaters and hackers work.
Anyway, this conversation is just a waste of time. The focus for me must be on releasing WRS beta9, not replying to someone who seems to entertain himself with pointless forum discussions.
You joined the discussion spontaneously, I didn't call you in.

As always, you've a goddamn real talent to turn good news for you (people leaving rFactor, WRS being strong on anti-cheat measures etc.) into hate towards (some of) your customers.
Just delete the posts, as always.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 22, 2016, 02:10:48 PM
I really like the fact P has made it so it is harder to cheat, I hate that kind of person. I do though have a question.

It is actually GPB related but it kinda fits in with the anti cheat function of your bike having to match the one on the server to stop cheating in performance of the bike. Please move where you think this should go.

As GPB is now it is great. It is for simulation of racing motorcycles in the more professional end of the racing scene. As has been said elsewhere GPB needs sales and a way to attract new customers. I dont mean something to implement right now but just wonder if it would be possible in the future.

My question is: Is it possible to have an OPEN class of bikes where ANY mod would be permitted and could be used online in races. What I am thinking of is the lower class of racing where the backstreet races are. The bikes are modded with whatever you can afford or fabricate and you put your mechanical skill to the test as well as your riding skills. Basically a class where we could mod them as we please knowing someone will get silly with a mod, but will it work against other modded bikes in a race.  There could be limitations made to stop it getting silly but leave it for people to really get personal with the bike they are riding. I think it would be of interest to many. It is not a gimmick, it is as in real life and it is fun.

I just wondered about the possibility of this on a server as you normally must have a bike with matching data. Could you make it so it could be variable to a limit like the bike setup is or the visuals are?

Thanks for any input and sorry its a bit off theme. It was the cheat thing got me thinking.

DD
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: Hawk on April 22, 2016, 02:45:53 PM

As far as I know DD, there is nothing stopping that right now.... Only trouble is that you would get bikes with 1000BHP and other bikes with 90BHP, what would be the point? I mean we saw what riders will choose when we tried to get riders to choose the 500 or the 1000cc bikes for an open race - 99.9% of riders will always choose the most powerful bike given the option - Most people have no sense of fun when there is a race to be won. Lol

The fun side of it would be seeing the different design of bikes modders came up with, but there's certainly nothing stopping that right now as far as I know?  :-\

Hawk.
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 22, 2016, 08:06:54 PM
Thats why I said modding WITH limitations to stop stupid over exaggerated power etc.

In real life a Suzuki 1000cc motor can only be so much bigger, if the limitations were as IRL it would be a very fun class and in would not be allowed to have 90hp vs 1000hp!!! I aint that stupid bro lol.

Think of Forza for bikes but not for silly pretty paintjobs, we can do that now lol, but for modding parts like exhaust etc. If someone could come up with the formula for say a yoshi or other pipe that you could edit into your bikes file, you could have a realistic ADDON system that we could all play with. Like going to a tuner and buying the parts and bolting them on in your combination.

Forza has it graphically, we could do it by editing bike files. Its possible now just not allowed and there are no know specifics for certain components, but we can sort it out for sure.

I think it would make a great personal class of racing.

DD
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: Napalm Nick on April 22, 2016, 09:17:58 PM
It would be another string to the gpbikes bow for sure.

Maybe call it something other than 'open' mode as we already have that.

As you know the current open mode means not only does the server have to have all the bikes of the player but also every player must therefore have every bike of the server and hence all the other players, so I can only see this being circumvented by Piboso having a mode where file checking is less strict.

For example: everyone has file checking for model type but not necessarily the engine file of that model or, as you suggest, more lax checking of some of the engine characteristics (eg: using Ballpark figures instead). Trouble is humans are cnuts and will just bang up everything to the Max limit like saddo's lol.

I'm sure it could be done why not stick it in the wishlist section? Everyone's entitled to 3 wishes I think? Rub that lamp  ;)
Title: Re: R.I.P. RFactor, Hello WRS?
Post by: doubledragoncc on April 22, 2016, 10:17:44 PM
I was thinking "StreetFighter" as thats almost what it is. I know the class is basically naked bikes but its a cool name and fits the bill.

As I said, if we had it so we figured out(some of you already have) the certain things we just edit in a set way for say a perticular exhaust or certain pistons, we could BUILD our motors, our whole bike technically, not graphically (YET) but enough to make it real fun and personal, a la forza.

If organized correctly it would be a blast and give 3D modders a larger scope to, plus custom name of bike=no license needed

DD