PiBoSo Official Forum

Cast your vote :)

I hope for a leave but I'd bet on the stay.

hopefully they stay.

wouldn't want to pay taxes for ebay/amazon.co.uk bargains.

Leave.

Hi all. Just popped in as Jamoz has sent me a private message. Hope you are all well and having fun.

Brexit or Remain? That's an easy one to answer if you have a knowledge of geopolitics..

The E.U. is a creation and a "front-line" project of the CIA.

End of debate as far as I'm concerned. And this is fact not fiction..I'm very afraid to say.

Now before anyone accuses me of being a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist (which I'm not. I'm a researcher of the facts of history) the chap being interviewed is non other than Dr Paul Craig Roberts. For those who do not know him Dr Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for Economic Policy under the Reagan administration and later served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of Commerce. Dr. Roberts also held the position of associate editor and columnist for The Wall Street Journal and columnist for Business Week and the Scripps Howard News Service. So he is a senior and highly respected commentator in U.S. politics and global geopolitical affairs. Let's just say he can join a few dots..  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/v/9otn_5LVQq8

Of relevance to this same subject if you have the time is the following video presentation which connects important events of history to the present day scenario.  Worth a watch with an open mind if you have the time..

https://www.youtube.com/v/5hfEBupAeo4

Take care everyone and stay safe. I vote OUT.

grT  ;)

100% leave

Funnily enough i had this discusion woth some freinds last night and i'm not bothered either way.

I've got reasons why I would like us to leave but as many to why we should stay.

Although i'm not a fan of all the scaremongering being done by both sides. Ths is your country as well. Stop thinking of your wallets.

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 06:38:25 AM
Although i'm not a fan of all the scaremongering being done by both sides. Ths is your country as well. Stop thinking of your wallets.

Have to agree with that. The funny thing is that both camps put pseudo-economic reasons forward to support their idea: one is wrong because economically, you'd probably be better off staying; the other is wrong too because "my booze will be more expensive if we leave" is not a good reason to stay.

Personally I do believe Europe is a good thing (far from perfect, quite obviously), but if the only motivation for a country to stay is economical, then I'd prefer them to leave.

Leave vote - the EU has no intention of fixing its problems and it has no mechanism for allowing its citizens to force change upon it.

Europe is a collection of democracies ruled by a dictatorship - how can that ever work in the long term.

I'll be voting to leave for sure.  ;D

I'm all for a one world government, but right now it's obvious that the world is not ready for that kind of integration and probably won't be for another few hundred years yet.  ::)

Hawk.

To give the people the vote on an issue they know feck all about is totally ridiculous and has been done to save the PM in the hope his generosity gets votes for his next election.

The people will vote based on stupid crap reported in TheSun newspaper such as how the EU means we have to eat straight bananas.

I vote for a government, and I do it because I expect them to make the right decision because they know the facts.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 08:39:21 AM
To give the people the vote on an issue they know feck all about is totally ridiculous and has been done to save the PM in the hope his generosity gets votes for his next election.

The people will vote based on stupid crap reported in TheSun newspaper such as how the EU means we have to eat straight bananas.

I vote for a government, and I do it because I expect them to make the right decision because they know the facts.

This is exactly the problem, i didn't vote in our last election because i have no confidence in any of our elected goveners and there is no one i would still vote for. No one who matters (or makes sense and means it) has any power in this goverment.

It's the same shit on a difrent day, whoever's in charge. So long as we don't have Trump or the BNP in charge im happy. I don't want any of the current leads nor really thi parties

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 08:39:21 AM
To give the people the vote on an issue they know feck all about is totally ridiculous and has been done to save the PM in the hope his generosity gets votes for his next election.

The people will vote based on stupid crap reported in TheSun newspaper such as how the EU means we have to eat straight bananas.

I vote for a government, and I do it because I expect them to make the right decision because they know the facts.

"A Government"? Which government? Hehe!   ;D

Personally I certainly don't trust governments/politicians so blindly..... Yes, they certainly do know the facts but their agenda is often different to what they portray to the people.
But people should have their own convictions too and be able to make a decision on that basis. But for Christ's sake don't make a decision on what the government or the papers are telling you. Lol!  ;D

But I absolutely agree with most of what you say Nick about people basing their vote on what crap they read and hear from the newspapers, but I'd also add to that, that some are going to base their vote on some of the crap they are hearing from the politicians on both sides too! Lol!

People should take an interest in politics, at least to the extent where they can form their own opinions on these issues, and it saddens me that people who take no interest in world politics at all in their general lives are then expected and more importantly allowed to vote on such important issues based only on what they are hearing from agenda based political pre-election campaigns solely designed as philological brain washing campaigns that have very little to do with the actual real issues because politicians know that most people don't take an interest in real world politics and rely on scaring them into voting the politicians way. Now doesn't that fact just go to show that we cannot trust what is said in election campaigns? I say make your own mind up in which way to vote; do some proper research if you don't know what to vote for and find the real facts. If people can't be bothered to do at least that then they don't deserve to be able to vote on such important issues in my opinion.  :P :)

Hawk.
PS: Wow! This could develop into a very big political debate with some very passionate opinions! Love it!! Hehe  ;D ;D

I knew I should of written a disclaimer before people thought I think governments know best  ::)

Yeh but I have more confidence in them than my neighbour who only gets up on a Thursday to collect his dole payment and spends the rest of the week having his bed sores being treated for free at home by the NHS. Funnily enough he is voting to stay in cos his life is nice and easy just now, why risk changing it.

Anyway, I'm off to bed its nursery bed bath time and its free!

(https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/6/63/HappyMerchant.gif/200px-HappyMerchant.gif)
I wonder who's behind all this.

Well, not voting is unlikely to improve the situation tough, right ?

On that point, I like the french way: you go on strike (and you lock highways, airports, cities, petrol distribution, everything) and screw everybody's day up.
When it starts to have an economic impact, the ones in charge will start listening. Which is funny because listening (and acting in consequence) is their one and only mandate, the very only reason they are in charge of anything at all.

Unless you live in Scandinavia (where people and politicians seems to be able to speak), there's only one way: the hard way. You hit where it hurts. And eventually, you chop a few heads off in the process: it seems to be pretty effective :)

I've found this: it's probably the closest thing to truth I've found in the entire campaign :)

(http://i.imgur.com/I6cDP3p.jpg)

I do like the northern europe way things are run. From what im aware things are more transparant. People have mor control over what happenes.

Im not to sure about the french method. I creates madness sureley. And i know a lot of lazy bastard ho would want to strike for everything.

After max's second post- i dont agree with that. Our hands are tied on so many things europe introduces and we can do anything about it. Stupid little things like our agraculture and food industry are heavily regulated and it is killing our farms/fishering etc because of it.

Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.

The european goverment is not better or worse than any other goverment currently in power. There is corruption weather people like it or not. All i know is that the there are people at the bottem who are suffering from the effects of rule inplaced. Be they well informed, conpletly legimiet reasons or not. Blanket cover or a large scale doesnt always work.

Look at the USA if thy had one set of rules for the entire country they'd probably colapse. Instead each state can make their own laws dependant on the area affected. It might not be the best way to run it but it does work.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.

I do not think you need to be a genius to work out that it should be;

a) more accountable
b) less wasteful of the resources it has
c) less partisan towards certain countries and economies, look at its recent response to our own governments proposals

But it refuses to evolve - trapped in a 1970's view of the world and its issues

And leaving will make this better how? Hope and assumption? Its not geniuses that are needed it is facts.

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
I do like the northern europe way things are run. From what im aware things are more transparant. People have mor control over what happenes.

But for it to work you need scandinavian people, both as citizens and governmnet members :)

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
Im not to sure about the french method. I creates madness sureley. And i know a lot of lazy bastard ho would want to strike for everything.

That's a myth. When a silly bunch goes on strike (like taxi owners recently in FR, against Uber and similar), no matter what they do, they look silly.
But when you have 1M and more in the streets, then ... well, even if one can consider they are wrong, you have to listen.
And no, you don't have 1M people in the streets once per week. Not even here in france :)

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
After max's second post- i dont agree with that. Our hands are tied on so many things europe introduces and we can do anything about it. Stupid little things like our agraculture and food industry are heavily regulated and it is killing our farms/fishering etc because of it.

Actually your agriculture is said to be more than supported (some would go as far as "kept alive") by EU subventions ...

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.

I see your point, but then what ? At some point, if you accept democracy, you accept that to some degree people decide.
What would you want to do ? Elect a chap because he looks nice and talks smooth and smells good and then trust him to fight the fight for, say, the people collecting your rubbish from the roads ?
I guess that after 60 years of that, we can confidently say that this does not work. Except maybe in Scandinavia :)

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 10:22:37 AM
I do not think you need to be a genius to work out that it should be;

a) more accountable
b) less wasteful of the resources it has
c) less partisan towards certain countries and economies, look at its recent response to our own governments proposals

But it refuses to evolve - trapped in a 1970's view of the world and its issues

Lol h. This is why I think UK should be out (up to "sent out"): because it just doesn't fit with the general idea of European Union.

You (UK, not you personally of course) want to be in, but with your own currency, non-metric system and driving on the left.
Of course, you're very happy to touch all the money for the agricultural policies, and rather glad (if not proud) to have a fairly suspect tax policy towards large companies (without talking about your wee islands here and there, on which there's no tax policy at all). Immigrants ? No thanks. Please hold them in Calais. Forever if possible. Refugees ? Already discussed, in the Immigrants paragraph.

For every single decision to be taken in the EU, the UK position is always, systematically, ineluctably: I'm OK if it brings me money, else I'm against it. I kind of prefer the Swiss attitude: at least with them it's clear, they don't try to play on both sides. They say I don't like it, I don't join it.

Probably a very true assessment, maybe describes the 'in crowd' just as much as the 'out crowd' though.

Work for a multinational, i have global colleagues, worked in all over europe, switzerland (even have a permit  ;) ) and the globe for 30 years. I like europe, i like the idea of a united europe - i just find the way the EU is run and some of it policies totally mad - even faced with the facts they have got something wrong they plough on with their heads in the sand - the destruction of Greece is not a solution to its problems for example.

No no, I am not suggesting I have a solution or a way forward. I am saying we (the people) have the least insight into what is the right decision because we only have the facts we are told (spun), not the hands on accounting books. I expect (best use of this emo ever -  ::)) our politicians to have access to those facts and make the right decision for us. Nobody should be in a better position to make that decision. I am well aware they probably couldn't find the facts if they were dressed in sparkly costumes. So it all comes down to our guess or their guess. No-one can predict what will happen as a result. Their guess should be better but they have given that chance away.

Hence I am not putting here my decision or any 'facts' to support my decision - cos I know its bollox. You are welcome to have a guess at what I will vote. The same as my guess at the actual vote.

Unfortunately preferred option 1 - 'fix whats broken'  :)  is not on the poll card leaving the more unpleasant choice of 'in' or 'out'  :(

I cant quite all that :P

1 very true. 2 fair enough i don't know enough so thats where i stop on that discusion.

But 3, i live in North Norfolk, a very agracultral and fishing industry based reigon of the UK (i kid you not it is one giant farm apart from the towns. It is one very giant tightly nitted comunity despite what anyone says. And whenever I speak to them they are always moanong about this new rule or that new law. I enjoy sea fishing and some of the recent laws brought in are redicules (to restrictive too soon) but there nothing they (the fishermen) could have done. The law was passed before anyone could react.

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 11:14:56 AM
Unfortunately preferred option 1 - 'fix whats broken'  :)  is not on the poll card leaving the more unpleasant choice of 'in' or 'out'  :(

Hehe H ! Now that is a fact ! I would love to see a poll on what people think of that as a option. Inspired mate.

Hey Matty I thought you moved to Kent where all the people have short arms and deep pockets?

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 11:00:15 AM
I like europe, i like the idea of a united europe - i just find the way the EU is run and some of it policies totally mad - even faced with the facts they have got something wrong they plough on with their heads in the sand - the destruction of Greece is not a solution to its problems for example.

Totally agree with that h, I was in favor of greece leaving because I think it would have been better for them (more than for the rest of the EU to which, to be honest, the presence or absence of greece is overall irrelevant, except from the still important symbolic point of view).

Still doesn't change that for this kind of matters, there can't be "half in": either one joins, or not. The UK has been half-in since the start, ripping the benefits and avoiding (at least some of) the annoyances. So threatening to leave (when the referendum was put in place) and then campaigning to stay (the very same person !) is a bit too much.

When I read the paragraph "Didn't David Cameron try and change the rules of the UK's EU membership?" here: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887)
I really really really want you out of the EU for good (which is sad), no matter if it will be better or worse for you and us. Because, again, UK does not seem to fit in the concept of Union: special status, no-discrimination protection on the pound, no intention to cover bail-outs, special rules for London ... seriously ? The mere fact this requests were put forward just boggles me.

For a short recap of the main issues at stake, I find this kind of good (and neutral, both camps' arguments are presented): http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32793642 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32793642)

I think ordinary people should read it and make up their minds. You don't need an Eton boys to tell you what's right: and you know that because if you take 10 of them, 5 will probably say stay and 5 leave :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.

:D that's a good one and a lot of truth in it... but like Churchill said - democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others ;) somehow you have to get a collective decision. But maybe only members of the parliament should cast their vote because they are/should be better informed on that subject and do represent the country?

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:15:08 AM
Look at the USA if thy had one set of rules for the entire country they'd probably colapse. Instead each state can make their own laws dependant on the area affected.

That is similar to how Germany is run. I live in Germany and I have to say the federate organisation really hampers us. It is most obvious in how the educational system is run and how the federal police agencies work together (or rather lack thereof). Students have problems in being admitted to universities across the whole country because of lack of comparability of their respective A-levels, crimes that are comitted trans-state are less likely to be solved/take more time to be solved etc etc.

We could be much advanced if the federate system would be abolished. But since it is installed and there is a lot of power for decision makers and politicians at stake it is extremely hard to overcome (let alone that there is a constitional barrier). In my opinion, in most cases sectionalism is bad and may leave some regions behind.

I have been following the BBCs take on the discussion as my most neutral fact giver (not total, after all it is the BBC). Generally I would also recommend it. At least no tin foil hats are needed.

Wishing us out because of some Island protection clauses is a bit harsh isn't it? Even if more than that then surely that's clever negotiation. I don't remember wishing a certain nation out of NATO for having all for one, one for all unless-its-me clauses? Hmm maybe I did at the time it was a long while ago.

I suppose if we leave and it turns out to be for the best no-one else will want in on the action then.

Look, this matter concerning the EU is actually I would suggest very straightforward. There exists a Zionist controlled international banking cabal. This entity controls and administrates the system of international finance through the process of usury. This same entity through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913 is in control of the issuance of currency in the United States of America. One might argue, perhaps convincingly, that this same entity has significant control and influence over the U.S. economy. As a result this entity wields enormous power and influence over U.S. politics, the U.S. media and U.S. foreign policy.. Are you with me so far?

The CIA in reality many would argue is the intelligence wing of this very same entity. It's tentacles spread across the globe. The EU is. many would argue, based upon the evidence, nothing more than a system of control to maintain Washington's (and therefore the cabal's) influence over the continent of Europe. To maintain discipline amongst the vassal states who in turn are subservient to the same banking cabal. This scenario, it might be argued, has clear and obvious implications with regard to NATO. NATO being, as many would argue, the military wing of Washington and the cabal. Without the EU the alliance of countries that is NATO might falter..

Relatively speaking myself and others might argue that all these discussions concerning trade and economics relating to the EU are tantamount to being nothing more than fluff and nonsense..they are largely irrelevant. Or at least many would argue that they are..

Now where are we headed with all this? Well many independent financial experts now firmly opine that we are facing, at some stage in the foreseeable  future, the very real prospect of a dollar collapse and a resultant currency reset of some sort. This would of course, to all intents and purposes, prove calamitous to life as we know it. This is why countries such as Russia and China are busy installing firewalls against a dollar collapse. This is why these countries, amongst others, are engaging in an ongoing process of de-dollarisation. This is partly what BRICS is all about although as we know certain South American BRICS members are being clandestinely undermined at the present time. Brazil and Venezuela spring to mind..

Now let's move into the arena of conjecture. Let's think of the concept of "Problem, Reaction, Solution". Put simply if your system of finance is heading towards total collapse what would you do? As a member of the cabal if you will? Now if you enter the mind of a psychopath maybe, conceivably, the answer might be a war against Russia and/or China? Certainly the sabres are rattling and NATO troops are massing as we speak along the borders with Russia. The missile "defence" system is also being installed as we speak in Eastern Europe. Like the Cuban missile crisis but on a larger and more dangerous scale and settting..and in reverse. Things are also heating up considerably in the South China Sea. China have only recently raised their nuclear threat level to the point of readiness..as some of you may know? Maybe the unthinkable is not that unthinkable any longer..? So if the world survives..if the cabal survives..what's the next move? Who knows? This is just conjecture based upon an extreme and unthinkable scenario. Quite obviously. However, one possible solution might well be the declaration of a single world government and a single world currency.. Yes you've guessed it. A New World Order.

All sounds insane doesn't it? From the minds of psychopaths strange and dangerous agendas do cometh..

Without wishing to seem rude anyone who trusts in their governments without question risks receiving something they do not want and something they did not expect..

The ramblings of a lunatic? Quite possibly perhaps you may think so but is Dr Paul Craig Roberts equally and justly to be considered a lunatic for certainly the same possible worst case scenario is occurring to him..amongst others.

On the same general subject here's Karen Hudes who is a former Senior Legal Council at the World Bank.

https://www.youtube.com/v/N3zwrw7KUx4

I'll love you and leave you now I think..but just thought I might try to stimulate at least some additional thought on this subject..

grT




   

Fortunately too long a post to read for me. For political  discussions I have a one paragraph limit before my mind wanders to something interesting.   ;D

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
I have been following the BBCs take on the discussion as my most neutral fact giver (not total, after all it is the BBC). Generally I would also recommend it. At least no tin foil hats are needed.

Follow the BBC's take on anything at your peril Nick. The BBC are proven liars..

Collapse of WTC Building 7 announced live on the BBC 23 minutes before it collpased..
Faked chemical weapons attack in Syria two years ago in which the BBC were actively complicit.

No. No tin foil hats required with the BBC at all..

https://www.youtube.com/v/bHQPaAkIl0I

grT  :o ;)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
Wishing us out because of some Island protection clauses is a bit harsh isn't it?

Not really if you ask me, tax policies are a big big issue these days. For sure with far more impact than "how many foreigners I will accept on my soil next year" (that's valid for everybody, not only the UK).

But beyond that, the point is that if every member asks for a bunch of exceptions (all of course driven by personal interest), there's no more a union to speak of.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
I suppose if we leave and it turns out to be for the best no-one else will want in on the action then.

Like in poker: you'll have to pay to see.

My preferred option would be UK actually joining the EU, fully in. But as this is never going to happen (unless everybody aligns to the UK's idea of "union"), the next best is that it leaves.
Which I think will not happen, sending us back to square one. Yawn.

Brexit.

Been brainwashed by GRT  ;D ;D

I already added my disclaimer about the BBC GrT- "not total, after all it is the BBC" hehe I am a wily fox who learnt fast in this forum.

Even assuming all the conspiracy stuff (which I do enjoy but only as entertainment rather than fanaticism) was true, so what? Let em get on with it. To protest is wasted effort - as useful as a University Student trying to change the world (or other fanaticism we all endure these days).  Once you get old enough you realise all that part of your life was a monumental waste of the limited time you have here.

If I had my way and thought I could achieve it I would push for the United States of the World where group-hugs were the religion.

Feck 3 paragraphs.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 21, 2016, 12:26:49 PM
Brexit.

Been brainwashed by GRT  ;D ;D

Good man!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
PS: Nice to see you back GRT!  ;) 8)

This is all getting a bit deep for me.

I am not bothered either way (well i am but i too on the fence to decide). I will deal with what i am delt. I do not understand enough about the complex nature of polotics and the elite nature of it all. All i know is that is will be givenshit if we leave or stay by eveyone around the world.

Peace!

P.s. i knw i cant spell i am on my phone :P

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 12:33:30 PM
This is all getting a bit deep for me.

I am not bothered either way (well i am but i too on the fence to decide). I will deal with what i am delt. I do not understand enough about the complex nature of polotics and the elite nature of it all. All i know is that is will be givenshit if we leave or stay by eveyone around the world.

Peace!

"Peace doesn't come easy..... it's something that needs to be protected an if necessary to fight for", and it's certainly not something achieved by sitting your arse on the fence. Lol :P ;) ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 21, 2016, 12:26:49 PM
Brexit.

Been brainwashed by GRT  ;D ;D

LOL!

Make the most of it before I'm invited in for questioning by the U.K. intelligence services..  ;)

@Hawk: nice to be back for a visit.  :)

grT   

Good man Matty, curved or straight bananas are all bananas right!

I have a solution to choose what to vote - I will find out what my wife votes and go the other direction to ensure this unit is neutral. Come the sinking ship (or aliens) I can then say "you can't blame me".

And sitting on the fence would cure the world, if everyone did it there would be no need to fight.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 21, 2016, 09:26:41 AMOn that point, I like the french way: you go on strike (and you lock highways, airports, cities, petrol distribution, everything) and screw everybody's day up.
When it starts to have an economic impact, the ones in charge will start listening. Which is funny because listening (and acting in consequence) is their one and only mandate, the very only reason they are in charge of anything at all.

ah, yes, i wish more countries would do it like that (including mine :()....

The EU is anti-democracy. Why would any sane person want to stay...
We fought in 2 world wars to keep our freedom and voting to remain in the EU is pretty much saying fuck you to everyone who fought in them.

Also, a video with some good points in it.
https://www.youtube.com/v/g6fq0YUJ4xQ

Quote from: Yogivo on June 21, 2016, 03:42:18 PM
The EU is anti-democracy. Why would any sane person want to stay...
We fought in 2 world wars to keep our freedom and voting to remain in the EU is pretty much saying fuck you to everyone who fought in them.

Also, a video with some good points in it.
https://www.youtube.com/v/g6fq0YUJ4xQ

Very good point it's a shame that not so many people refer to these points.

I didn't see the very good point in the video above, but if the video helps the leave camp win, it's all good for me.

Leave asap, and don't forget to let the few chaps in Scotland and Wales to have a referendum of their own to leave the UK and rejoin back the EU. That would be very funny.
Claiming to be abused by the Bruxelles government and then abusing Scotland on a daily basis. Gotta love the coherence :)

really an amusing thread we have here ;)

i like this "the world is ruled by..."  way of thinking.
u really believe in these storys? and the americans wasnt on the moon, right?
hehe go on with this... very funny.

btw. in my opinion GB should stay in the EU. not for the rest of the EU but for themself, at lease in economical view.

Quote from: JJS209 on June 21, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
btw. in my opinion GB should stay in the EU. not for the rest of the EU but for themself, at lease in economical view.

Because the EU has a booming economy...
When the main worry for the EU is that if we leave the EU will fall apart then that is proof alone that it is a failing economy.

Quote from: JJS209 on June 21, 2016, 05:35:26 PMi like this "the world is ruled by..."  way of thinking.
u really believe in these storys? and the americans wasnt on the moon, right?
hehe go on with this... very funny.

you don't believe the world is ruled by money?

I don't think anything will fall apart after the brexit, neither for the UK nor for the EU.

But if 2 or 3 major banks leave the UK (which is quite likely, in case of leave), then ... Wouldn't you think that Cameron's attempt to protect London from EU financial regulations is just a confirmation of that ?

I doubt UK's economy will do so well without the financial sector: what does the UK actually export ? Seriously, I can't find a single product.
Even in terms of football hooligans exportation you've been left behind by the Russians :)

Quote from: JJS209 on June 21, 2016, 05:35:26 PM
really an amusing thread we have here ;)

i like this "the world is ruled by..."  way of thinking.
u really believe in these storys? and the americans wasnt on the moon, right?
hehe go on with this... very funny.

btw. in my opinion GB should stay in the EU. not for the rest of the EU but for themself, at lease in economical view.

Well the undeniable fact is that the EU was a creation of the CIA. So there is more going on with this than perhaps meets the eye when it comes to Washington's relationship with Europe do you not think? Or are you one of those individuals who just glosses over such facts JJS209? 

Now let's deal with the substance of your post shall we?

To answer your question re. the alleged moon landings no I do not believe, based upon a careful examination of the evidence, that NASA ever made it to the moon. Not with a manned mission in any case.  Do you?

https://www.youtube.com/v/xciCJfbTvE4

Now since you have raised some doubts over what people such as myself and indeed the likes of Paul Craig Roberts are suggesting let me take this just a small stage further with you if I may JJS209?  Let us consider, if we may briefly, the high profile 9/11 terror attacks on the U.S.A.

My question to you is straightforward. Do you personally believe the official narrative and explanation put forward by the U.S. government for the 9/11 attacks?

I'm genuinely curious.

You see my thinking on this sort of thing is that individuals such as yourself do perhaps have a tendency to believe most if not all you are told by officialdom when it comes to significant events of this nature..without any in-depth and critical investigation on your own part. If I am wrong in thinking this then fair enough. I am wrong. You see my own take on the official narrative of the 9/11 is that it is beyond ridiculous and that it defies not only logic but also the universally accepted laws of physics.

But what do you think? What is your opinion with regard to WTC Building 7? Do you feel its uniform free-fall collapse into its own "footprint" was as the result of an office fire? Or do you suspect it might have been taken down by a controlled demolition? As an ancillary point with regard to WTC 7 how do you account for the fact its collapse was announced on live television in the U.K. 23 minutes in advance of it falling?

I'm just curious in view of the nature and tone of your response.

As a final thought on this it does seem clear that the term "conspiracy theorist" has been "weaponised". If one examines the history of the term "conspiracy theorist" and how it came to be coined this is perhaps not that surprising. The term "conspiracy theorist" was coined by the CIA in 1967. More specifically in April 1967 the CIA wrote a dispatch which coined the term "conspiracy theories" ... and recommended methods for discrediting such theories. The dispatch was marked "psych" –  short for "psychological operations" or disinformation –  and "CS" for the CIA's "Clandestine Services" unit. We know this because the memo in question was produced in responses to a Freedom of Information Act request by the New York Times in 1976. The thinking is that the CIA decided upon the "weaponisation" of  the term in a response to growing calls for further investigation into the assassination of John F. Kennedy.  I suppose one could say this was a deliberate strategy on the part of the CIA to undermine and discredit those voices who were calling the whole affair into question. You can easily look up the full details of this internal "dispatch" online if you so wish. So I suppose this explains why the accusation of being a "conspiracy theorist" doesn't in reality really hold much water at all. Not if such an accusation is made against someone in a conversation or a debate of this nature. Put simply it doesn't wash.

By contrast of course if anyone chooses to debate facts, circumstances, the nature of historical events and their meaning or indeed such things as the laws of physics etc., in the context of such a debate, then I would suggest such an approach is probably more meaningful and relevant to the discussion.

Anyway, I would be interested in your response re. 9/11 if you are happy to provide it?

grT  ;)



 
     

Post too long alarm post too long alarm.

;) just kidding but I only got as far as CIA then I stuck my head back in the sand.

I want to know why our Max started this topic anyway - spying for the AISE or AISI probably. Don't tell him what you will vote or you might disappear.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 06:51:13 PM
My question to you is straightforward. Do you personally believe the official narrative and explanation put forward by the U.S. government for the 9/11 attacks?

Search no more, I know the truth about that. It's a Honda-led conspiracy: they faked the moon landing and the 9/11 and godknowswhatelse with the clear intent of killing 2 strokes in favour of the more boring, less performing and worse sounding 4 strokes. It's crystal clear, as unused 2 strokes oil.

And don't even get me started on GPB's online issues: everybody knows Milestone has installed rootkits in all USB devices of the world to make GPB crash randomly, to preserve MotoGP supremacy.

I know that because once, on a freshly assembled PC which had never been connected to a USB device, I played GPB for 10min and it didn't crash once. And the guy who originally assembled the PC died of hart attack at age 65 a few days after: proof enough.

P.S.
No, I no longer have the PC of course: it has been stolen the day after by the FBI. Which in fact was the KGB. Which in fact was a bunch of aliens. Which in fact was Microsoft. Which in fact was, unsurprisingly, Honda. Those bastards !

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 07:19:04 PM
I want to know why our Max started this topic anyway - spying for the AISE or AISI probably. Don't tell him what you will vote or you might disappear.

Because it's a barrel of fun, of course. Until the conspiracy-theorist joins in, that is  :P

Hehe its true haven't had this much fun since the great "is it a sim or arcade" debate.

We should have a voting form for that.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 07:32:30 PM
Hehe its true haven't had this much fun since the great "is it a sim or arcade" debate.

We should have a voting form for that.

The Simxit: should pCars be allowed to be called a sim ?
  Yes, because the more the merrier and united we stand.
  No, because if it stays then the sim-world economy will collapse and all your hardly-earned sim-rep-points will be worth nothing in no time at all.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 21, 2016, 07:36:26 PM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 07:32:30 PM
Hehe its true haven't had this much fun since the great "is it a sim or arcade" debate.

We should have a voting form for that.

The Simxit: should pCars be allowed to be called a sim ?
  Yes, because the more the merrier and united we stand.
  No, because if it stays then the sim-world economy will collapse and all your hardly-earned sim-rep-points will be worth nothing in no time at all.

I heard that everytime someone calls pCARS a sim, 3 baby kittens die somewhere on this earth!   :-[

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/c7/85/9b/c7859b2f156087af3e1f72cdc8b9cda8.jpg)

But you know who's *really* behind that internet kittens frenzy, right Jamoz ?

I'll tell you what's fucking not nice, seeing hard working family's on border-line poverty because of the EU. The eu is a fucking mess just dressed up to look nice and don't forget the rich they love this system cheap larbour means more for them. I say fucking leave and let's start looking after the people in the country already. There's a few people on here that would happily stay on the sinking ship... That's why we're using the lifeboat people.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 07:32:30 PM
Hehe its true haven't had this much fun since the great "is it a sim or arcade" debate.

We should have a voting form for that.

could send us into WW3 that one..  :D

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 21, 2016, 07:50:17 PM
I'll tell you what's fucking not nice, seeing hard working family's on border-line poverty because of the EU. The eu is a fucking mess just dressed up to look nice and don't forget the rich they love this system cheap larbour means more for them. I say fucking leave and let's start looking after the people in the country already. There's a few people on here that would happily stay on the sinking ship... That's why we're using the lifeboat people.

+1

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 21, 2016, 07:50:17 PM
I'll tell you what's fucking not nice, seeing hard working family's on border-line poverty because of the EU. The eu is a fucking mess just dressed up to look nice and don't forget the rich they love this system cheap larbour means more for them. I say fucking leave and let's start looking after the people in the country already. There's a few people on here that would happily stay on the sinking ship... That's why we're using the lifeboat people.

Exactly. The UK is forced to take quotas of migrants from the EU forcing Brits out of jobs because they cant afford to work on the wages Eastern Europeans will. Where I live in Boston, Lincolnshire is a fucking joke, i barely hear a single English voice when i'm in town and we have one of the highest murder rates in the UK because of scummy Polish murdering each other.
The morons who call Farage a racist because he wants control of our borders back and wants English people to have jobs really need to question their sanity.

I'll say one thing it's an interesting thread. It is always refreshing when people can discuss these matters in a reasonably sane and orderly fashion.

As regards the question of migration into the EU just to enliven this debate/discussion further those interested might wish to research the  "Kalergi Plan"?

As a final touch to confirm my unorthodox way of thinking have you ever noticed the similarity between these two structures?

(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/Tower%20of%20Babel_zpsqbmaizuw.jpg)

grT ;)

Well this debate has gone to shit ::) ;D

Bloody conspiracy theorist. Get back in your straight jacket ;) ;D

definitely an amusing thread!  :D  many very good points in here, many very strange points in here and the sarcastic post from MaX got me laughing very good.  ;D  best way to answer that conspiracy crap...

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 21, 2016, 07:50:17 PM
I'll tell you what's fucking not nice, seeing hard working family's on border-line poverty because of the EU. The eu is a fucking mess just dressed up to look nice and don't forget the rich they love this system cheap larbour means more for them. I say fucking leave and let's start looking after the people in the country already. There's a few people on here that would happily stay on the sinking ship... That's why we're using the lifeboat people.

You blame an organisation (the EU) for things it has little bearing on. Poverty in the UK comes from choices deliberately and purposely made by the UK government(s), not form the EU. I guess the incredibly smart bedroom tax has to be blamed on the EU too, right ?

Quote from: Yogivo on June 21, 2016, 08:04:05 PM
The morons who call Farage a racist because he wants control of our borders back and wants English people to have jobs really need to question their sanity.

I was under the impression that most morons call him a racist because, like many others across all Europe, he just is one.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 21, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
definitely an amusing thread!  :D  many very good points in here, many very strange points in here and the sarcastic post from MaX got me laughing very good.  ;D  best way to answer that conspiracy crap...

I put this sort of reaction down to cognitive dissonance. So too I suspect does Dr Paul Craig Roberts..

grT ;)

Poverty throughout Europe and the U.S. is a direct and insidious consequence of the private central banking system. It has little or nothing to do with the actions of the U.K. government.. Of course the imposition of austerity measures only serves to make things more difficult for those souls who had nothing to do with the financial crisis of 2007/8.

There is an argument that capitalism died when the banks were bailed out by the taxpayer. There is a cogent argument that as a result we now live in a plutocracy. Too big to fail doesn't fit terribly well with the definition of capitalism many would argue. And of course we now have agreed and ratified bail-in provisions within most/all of the countries of Europe..not to mention the U.S.A.

grT

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 08:40:37 PM
Poverty throughout Europe and the U.S. is a direct and insidious consequence of the private central banking system. It has little or nothing to do with the actions of the U.K. government..

probably true but it also has nothing to do with the EU.
unregulated capitalism simply doesn't work (anymore).

Im totally with GrT now. Both those buildings are definitely round. You cannot deny it.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 08:37:12 PM

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 21, 2016, 08:33:58 PM
definitely an amusing thread!  :D  many very good points in here, many very strange points in here and the sarcastic post from MaX got me laughing very good.  ;D  best way to answer that conspiracy crap...

I put this sort of reaction down to cognitive dissonance. So too I suspect does Dr Paul Craig Roberts..

Agree. I'm always dissonant when facing tin-foils. I'm unable figure out why. Yet.

But now look at that: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil)

First I though that some here just fall perfectly into the definition but then ... what if urbandictionary.com is just another gear in the world-wide conspiracy ? Oh boy, proofs are piling up at lightspeed. Now I'm tempted to kill myself before little green men abducts me.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 08:51:26 PM
Im totally with GrT now. Both those buildings are definitely round. You cannot deny it.

Rofl ! I guess you're cognitively dissonant too Nick: welcome to the club ! Let's dissonate !

Just wondering, what's the proper wording for the opposite camp ? I'm thinking cognitively assonant but it would be too good to be true.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 08:40:37 PMThere is an argument that capitalism died when the banks were bailed out by the taxpayer. There is a cogent argument that as a result we now live in a plutocracy. Too big to fail doesn't fit terribly well with the definition of capitalism many would argue.

I think plutocracy is the inevitable consequence of unregulated capitalism.
I don't see a conflict between the two.

ROFL - Assonant is quite close to Assassinate after a lager schnappes too, so another link.

But look
(http://i65.tinypic.com/vn048n.jpg)
This is an EU ruling on cat tree houses. I'm voting out if I can bring myself to stop watching this in time for Thursday, just so I can put a British ladder in not a slide.
(also notice the ROUND barrel mouse house in the rear)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 21, 2016, 08:59:56 PM

Agree. I'm always dissonant when facing tin-foils. I'm unable figure out why. Yet.

But now look at that: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil)

First I though that some here just fall perfectly into the definition but then ... what if urbandictionary.com is just another gear in the world-wide conspiracy ? Oh boy, proofs are piling up at lightspeed. Now I'm tempted to kill myself before little green men abducts me.

lol. Nothing like trying to "weaponise" an already weaponised term is there Mr HornetMax?  All rather predictable.

Now rather than indulge in exchanges of a personal nature what I would ask you to do, if you feel inclined, is to comment, meaningfully, on what Dr Paul Craig Roberts had to say in his interview. Perhaps elaborate on your own thoughts/reaction to the fact that the EU is a creation and project of the CIA and perhaps what you make of Dr Roberts' commentary on this fact pertinent to the EU referendum. Or are you merely capable of indulging in ad hominem attacks and nothing more?

At the moment if I am honest your pro-EU argument seems a little "light" in view of what Dr Roberts had to say.

Just being honest. Not looking for a confrontation. ;)

 

This is I believe an official European Poster promoting all the languages of Europe working on a modern Tower of Babel
(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/europe-tower_of_babel_zpsgpunpfkf.jpg)

Of course the question with this is why? What is the significance of the Tower of Babel and Babylon itself to the CIA project that is the EU?

Merely the stuff of conspiracy theory? Or something more possibly?

grT 

You posted your penultimate last message, GrT, after just a mere 4 minutes of watching that cat GIF. Even I took an hour checking if it was the same cat or not.

What kind of cold hearted woman are you?

;)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 09:26:24 PM
You posted your penultimate last message, GrT, after just a mere 4 minutes of watching that cat GIF. Even I took an hour checking if it was the same cat or not.

What kind of cold hearted woman are you?

;)

lol. Sorry. :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 09:12:19 PM
But look
(http://i65.tinypic.com/vn048n.jpg)

The almighty PCE, Perpetual Cat Engine !! In your face, people who believed it can't be done !

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 09:16:17 PM
Now rather than indulge in exchanges of a personal nature what I would ask you to do, if you feel inclined, is to comment, meaningfully, on what Dr Paul Craig Roberts had to say in his interview. Perhaps elaborate on your own thoughts/reaction to the fact that the EU is a creation and project of the CIA and perhaps what you make of Dr Roberts' commentary on this fact pertinent to the EU referendum. Or are you merely capable of indulging in ad hominem attacks and nothing more?

Sorry but for this year I've already wasted all the time I can afford to waste watching the video posted by Yogivo (nice ukulele background music by the way).

But if reassures you, in no time I can probably find a multitude of video interviews of academic people firmly believing that roughly two thousand years ago, a bearded chap born from a virgin mother and no father (in the ... hum ... biblical sense) whispered some mumbo-jumbo and nurrished thousands of people multiplying a bread loaf and lone fish on the spot. He also did a side show healing the sick ones and getting back to life after having been horribly killed by a bunch of non-believers. True story, I swear.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 09:24:33 PM
This is I believe an official European Poster promoting all the languages of Europe working on a modern Tower of Babel
(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/europe-tower_of_babel_zpsgpunpfkf.jpg)

Of course the question with this is why? What is the significance of the Tower of Babel and Babylon itself to the CIA project that is the EU?

Merely the stuff of conspiracy theory? Or something more possibly?

I'd say that the people who built the tower of babel were in fact an alien civilisation far more advanced then what we are today. Knowledgeable in time-travel, they had already visited Europe circa 2000ac so they were aware of the Strasbourg building and when the travelled back in time, they have built the tower just like the modern building. They dealt with the implication of altering the past while coming from the future by accurately sampling the right one of the multiple parallel universes (so don't bring that Doc Brown vs Marty McFly argument forward).

I hope you realise that my explanation of the fact is just as plausible as yours.

BTW, check this: German Late Medieval (c. 1370s) depiction of the construction of the tower.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Meister_der_Weltenchronik_001.jpg/394px-Meister_der_Weltenchronik_001.jpg)

OK it's a bit less round, but hey, a german did it so that's to be expected.
But look at the weird shape of the painting: it's an L ... like  LEAVE THE EU !! What more you need ?!

Well of course..academic "experts" bought and paid for (allegedly) or otherwise can be found everywhere at the moment commentating on the EU? So what?

What I am asking you to comment upon, however, more specifically is the revelation that the EU is a creation and project of the U.S. intelligence services and the implications of that fact to the forthcoming EU referendum. That is the point in question here if you so choose to address it. If you do not choose to address it then fair enough. That is your prerogative. But do you not think this is an important matter within the overall matter of the EU?

Now playing to the gallery aside Mr HornetMax, which possibly you might indulge in when things are not going to plan in a discussion, I am genuinely interested in your response..if that is you care to provide it? This matter, the EU referendum and the future of the EU, also has I would contend implications for the future of NATO. So it is quite important I would suggest.

As regards Babel, what I was seeking but failing to get you to ponder, are the possible links of the entity that owns a huge segment of the global wealth of this planet, back through time to its proximate place of origin. That was all. An interesting or not so interesting aside as it were, depending upon your perspective. Let's leave that one on the back burner shall we? ;)

So CIA, EU. What do you reckon? If that is you feel happy to respond?

grT  :)   

Lol loving this topic. Max  I've saved you a lifeboat mate give us a call and we're come and save ya, your probably want to remain and go down on that sinking ship.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 10:03:07 PM
What I am asking you to comment upon, however, more specifically is the revelation that the EU is a creation and project of the U.S. intelligence services and the implications of that fact to the forthcoming EU referendum. That is the point in question here if you so choose to address it. If you do not choose to address it then fair enough. That is your prerogative.

In case it wasn't yet clear to you, I decide to exercise my prerogative, your honour. Mostly because I find playing the gallery ultimately more useful in the grand scheme of things than discussing with nutters (no offence at large, some nutters are actually interesting to discuss with, but not this kind of nutters).

So yes, I will keep on laughing at all these "theories" and no I won't try to reply you on a serious tone due to lack of seriousness in the subject to start with.
Pondering about improbable conspiracies when your own not-so-secret services are screwing your civil rights on a daily basis in plain sight is like brushing your teeth to avoid cavities 5 minutes before walking the last mile in the death row. More concisely said, it's utterly useless. So I'll leave that to you.

But I'm sure you'll find plenty of other forums where plenty of other people will listen to plenty of your theories very seriously and provide plenty of even more intriguing ones: so why would you waste your time with me ? I'm a lost cause. Just give me the "I'm sorry for you, one day you'll understand"-look and move on.

CIA, EU what do I reckon ? I reckon one has 3 letters and the other has 2. Do you agree ?

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 21, 2016, 10:22:38 PM
Lol loving this topic. Max  I've saved you a lifeboat mate give us a call and we're come and save ya, your probably want to remain and go down on that sinking ship.

That's kind from you, but I won't be able to call you because post-brexit I may have to pay roaming fees to call the UK. And clearly I won't be able to afford that, as my job will be likely given to a turkish fella for a tenth of my salary. No problem though, as by then my kids will probably be murdered by some albanian so I could as well survive on my tiny pension. See ? All under control here :)

Jokes aside, you seem to be concerned about poor families: the funny thing is that if your family is poor, you're currently way better off if you are in FR, DE or even IT (!!)  than if you are in the UK.
And your solution is: get the UK out of the EU. So you put your destiny in the hand of the ones that when France announced to be about to tax (a lot) people with huge revenues (we're talking above 1mil Euros per year revenue, per person), openly said (openly = public declaration, facing the press and all) "Hey rich people in France, don't get taxed, don't give your money to the stupid french taxman, come to the UK: we won't tax you". I have hard time in seeing how they could take to much care of poor UK families. But if it's OK for you, be my guest.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 21, 2016, 10:43:51 PM

In case it wasn't yet clear to you, I decide to exercise my prerogative, your honour. Mostly because I find playing the gallery ultimately more useful in the grand scheme of things than discussing with nutters (no offence at large, some nutters are actually interesting to discuss with, but not this kind of nutters).

So yes, I will keep on laughing at all these "theories" and no I won't try to reply you on a serious tone due to lack of seriousness in the subject to start with.
Pondering about improbable conspiracies when your own not-so-secret services are screwing your civil rights on a daily basis in plain sight is like brushing your teeth to avoid cavities 5 minutes before walking the last mile in the death row. More concisely said, it's utterly useless. So I'll leave that to you.

But I'm sure you'll find plenty of other forums where plenty of other people will listen to plenty of your theories very seriously and provide plenty of even more intriguing ones: so why would you waste your time with me ? I'm a lost cause. Just give me the "I'm sorry for you, one day you'll understand"-look and move on.

CIA, EU what do I reckon ? I reckon one has 3 letters and the other has 2. Do you agree ?

So basically you haven't got a clue on this subject have you Max? That much now seems self evident.

Oh well. Over and out.

grT  ;)

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 10:52:39 PM
So basically you haven't got a clue on this subject have you Max?

Never tried to imply otherwise. And not willing to change that neither.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 21, 2016, 10:52:39 PM
Oh well. Over and out.

Roger.

Please do not confuse London and 'the City' with the rest of the UK - the situation is as big a mystery to us as it is the rest of Europe and all the political parties seem to be unduly influenced by the banking and service sectors that reside within the M25.

The rest of the country receives very little of this apparent wealth (although we are still waiting for our money back for bailing those successful international banks) and suffer constantly reducing public services with disintegrating Victorian infrastructure, the residents of the UK outside of London have little or no experience of the possible positives the EU is supposed to bring.  :(

https://www.youtube.com/v/9foi342LXQE
;D :) ;)

That is a truth H!

I live in Devon - IE: South west of Exeter. We have one train line (that broke the other year) and one road down which lost its Motorway status. The big cheese (Cameron) came down to look things over wearing a shiny yellow hard hat some London 'helmet holder' had given him - in the flood (after it had all been cleaned up) and said what are we moaning about every day is a holiday day in Devon isn't it?

The Cornish (even further south west) have gone back to their own language (we now have the first Cornish spoken TV advert for people to laugh at - oh and it is for Ice cream, confirming Camerons view). The Cornish want Independence more than the Scottish but don't go on about it so much because they are pretty independent anyway (no one south of Exeter knows they exist).

And to top it off none of us have ever received the Big red Leaflet explaining everything (yeh right) that every household in Britain is supposed to have received weeks ago! South of Exeter wasn't in the leaflet budget apparently and besides no one lives there it is just a holiday destination full of chalets and stocked with beach deckchairs.

So, we are already out of Europe down here and I recommend it. If the rest of the country leaves they will soon be soaking in the sun and eating ice cream every day like the rest of us! Hoorah!

@grT: Don't bear a grudge, MaX just saved you and himself much time which would have been wasted fruitlessly. You probably did not really hope to convince him, but probably would have loved the discussion itself. But some just don't see a reason to discuss things when the other party's point of view is obviously cemented already ;)

@MaX: I raise my hat on how you firmly, yet not impolitely cheated the gallows ;) very gallantly

Well what a rotten nights sleep thinking about all this.  :(

I mean what is wrong with those Kittens? Why are they not learning the slide is slippery? FFS!

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 22, 2016, 08:03:59 AM
@grT: Don't bear a grudge, MaX just saved you and himself much time which would have been wasted fruitlessly. You probably did not really hope to convince him, but probably would have loved the discussion itself. But some just don't see a reason to discuss things when the other party's point of view is obviously cemented already ;)

@MaX: I raise my hat on how you firmly, yet not impolitely cheated the gallows ;) very gallantly

I'm not one to bear grudges. I do not have on a personal level a "problem" with Max at all. I'm just rather incredulous at his stance on this subject that's all.

You see I presented for discussion not a conspiracy theory but an immutable fact that the EU is a creation of the CIA. This is not a theory. It is fact based upon official unclassified CIA documents.

So the raison d'etre of the EU is not what we have been led to believe. What I do find strange is Max's reaction. It's like a form of denial.


Every time someone makes fun of the idea of "conspiracy theories" they are exhibiting a conditioned response – like salivating when they hear a bell or believing a TV news program.

When asked if I am into conspiracy theories, I like to steal from Michael Moore and say, "Only the ones that are true." 

A ruder response (which I lifted from someone else) is perhaps: "Conspiracy Theorist? Now tell me the truth, where did you hear that term...on TV? (Laugh.) ...So let me get this straight. Are you saying that men in high positions of power are not capable of criminal activity and telling lies to the general public? That they are not capable of engaging in criminal agenda? Are you really that naive?" (Laugh as you say this.)

Anyway, look love and peace. Not that I was in anyway offended in the first place.

As a parting shot (a final parting shot) regardless of the referendum result I am personally not all that convinced we (the U.K.) would be allowed to leave anyway. Opps..there goes another conspiracy theory! ;)

Take care all,
grT  :)

(http://www.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/weirdalfoil_2322.jpg)

(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/sheeple-tv2_zps3bkq16ps.jpg)

grT  :P  ;)

grT, you not only presented the "EU is a pet project of the CIA" theory, but also the "Moon landing took place in Nevada" theory, the "9/11 is totally something else" theory and the "Babel tower vs Strasbourg building" theory. So I'm rather incredulous at your being rather incredulous at my stance on this "subject".

So no, I won't read any of this. Because if I do it then, for the sake of being fair, I'll have to read the "Earth is flat" theory, the "Nuclear fusion reaction at room temperature using a 9v battery and a glass of water" theory and the "I can cure your cancer on the tv/web, send me a payment and I'll show you" theory. And clearly, I prefer being punched in the face by a pro boxer for a few rounds than doing that.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 22, 2016, 08:03:59 AM
@MaX: I raise my hat on how you firmly, yet not impolitely cheated the gallows ;) very gallantly

She took me on a good day, but it won't last :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 22, 2016, 09:35:18 AM
grT, you not only presented the "EU is a pet project of the CIA" theory, but also the "Moon landing took place in Nevada" theory, the "9/11 is totally something else" theory and the "Babel tower vs Strasbourg building" theory. So I'm rather incredulous at your being rather incredulous at my stance on this "subject".

So no, I won't read any of this. Because if I do it then, for the sake of being fair, I'll have to read the "Earth is flat" theory, the "Nuclear fusion reaction at room temperature using a 9v battery and a glass of water" theory and the "I can cure your cancer on the tv/web, send me a payment and I'll show you" theory. And clearly, I prefer being punched in the face by a pro boxer for a few rounds than doing that.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 22, 2016, 08:03:59 AM
@MaX: I raise my hat on how you firmly, yet not impolitely cheated the gallows ;) very gallantly

She took me on a good day, but it won't last :)

Yawn.

As an aside surely you are not stupid enough to believe the official story of 9/11 are you Max? Are you Max????? Maybe you are..  :P

grT 

But seriously (yes I will try).

The EU 'continent' is the only continent in the world(!) that is currently in financial decline, fact.

Run by faceless bureaucrats stifling trade at every opportunity with their rules to prevent healthy competition, and capable of passing laws that don't need anyone's acceptance whilst being accountable to no-one (no voting)- the very antithesis of democracy. So to stay in Europe much longer actually means giving up your freedom, and your childrens freedom and watch as your people get poorer, the 'intellectuals'
get richer, and tension inside EU countries continues to rise..a cycle repeated by history and failed already.

By stifling the UKs fishing industry, agriculture, ship building and all major industry and providing some 'compensation' in return (which actually costs us more in tax than we get back) they have tried to reduce their dependency on the UK and have confirmed this further by agreeing to our 'special EU clauses'.

Even if initially the affect on the UK is detrimental, the gamble is still - stay in the EU and watch it collapse or leave with the possibility of gaining freedom like the other non EU countries. Hmm like the Swiss - one of the largest trading, richest, happiest countries in the World. That's a good gamble to me.

My opening gambit was that people will vote based on the SUN newspaper telling them they have to eat straight bananas due to EU directives.

And so they should.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 09:40:44 AM
Yawn.

As an aside surely you are not stupid enough to believe the official story of 9/11 are you Max? Are you Max????? Maybe you are..  :P

If I say I am stupid enough, will you stop spamming us with your enlightened theories ? Deal ?

If you really really insist, I'd suggest the admins to create a forum section called "The truth is in there" or "If you're stupid enough stay out of this section".
But again, I'm sure you can find much more empathy for your theories on other forums. And let us discuss "dumb" stuff here.
I mean, our stupidity could even start affecting you one day ... why insisting ?

let's talk brembo rather than brexit, lol      ;)

 ;D I find this very amusing, but at the same time I hope grT does not feel offended... grT, please realize MaX is not trying to drive you nuts - he just tries to save both of you valuable life time. I am serious about that...

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 09:40:44 AM
As an aside surely you are not stupid enough to believe the official story of 9/11 are you Max? Are you Max????? Maybe you are..  :P

grT, given your suggestive wording, you cannot seriously expect MaX to answer earnestly, can you?! it shows how much you think you are ahead of anyone who could outrageously believe in something that is contradictory to what you believe. I have had numerous such discussions privately and professionally (back in the days I was young and illusionary enough to think that rational argumentation would always do the trick) and I have learned that in such cases it is just a waste of time for both sides...

On a sidenote (serious question): I wonder why you haven't brought up chemtrails in your list of things to discuss. Also I would like to know whether you use orgone stones and whether you only drink specific water or have a specific health diet?

I`m just happy noone discovered that it`s all actually a plan of emperor palpatine in order to reestablish the galactic empire....

(https://i.imgflip.com/11f8zo.jpg)

May the force be with you my young padawans.

(i really have no idea what this is all about, nor do i care enough. I`m just really, really bored at work :')

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 22, 2016, 10:11:18 AM
;D I find this very amusing, but at the same time I hope grT does not feel offended... grT, please realize MaX is not trying to drive you nuts - he just tries to save both of you valuable life time. I am serious about that...

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 09:40:44 AM
As an aside surely you are not stupid enough to believe the official story of 9/11 are you Max? Are you Max????? Maybe you are..  :P

grT, given your suggestive wording, you cannot seriously expect MaX to answer earnestly, can you?! it shows how much you think you are ahead of anyone who could outrageously believe in something that is contradictory to what you believe. I have had numerous such discussions privately and professionally (back in the days I was young and illusionary enough to think that rational argumentation would always do the trick) and I have learned that in such cases it is just a waste of time for both sides...

On a sidenote (serious question): I wonder why you haven't brought up chemtrails in your list of things to discuss. Also I would like to know whether you use orgone stones and whether you only drink specific water or have a specific health diet?

Stout, you have hit the nail bang dead centre on the head with that statement mate.... Being an old git myself with many hours throughout my life trying to rationally convince others of the way things really are in the world you are so right with that statement.  ;) 8)
Youngsters always think they can change the world by trying to convince others of what they perceive to be right, but unless you work hard to get yourself into a position of power in this current social system then they don't realise that they are just wasting their time and efforts. This we all only realise as we get older and realise that nothing has changed and never will while we have these idiots in power. I mean who here was crazy enough to vote conservative in the last election? You were conned guys, big-time! :o ::)

So I would say to others that if you know your mind then you will come to a decision on this subject quite easily; to the others who are sitting on the fence and dithering looking for a mummy to tell you which way to vote then just don't bother to vote at all, that way the UK will get a truer representation of the populations intent overall instead of certain people making a decision based on selfish and superficial reasons and not at all about what would be best for the country as a whole.  :P

The human race has certainly still got a lot of growing up to do. Lol  ;D

"The Truth is out there!"  ;D

Hawk.

Max I would like to apologise for my very brief words on the subject, yes I have my own opinion but I once loved this country for what it was and by no means am l a racist. Now from 1991 I served in the gulf war thought I would do something for this country at the age of 20 but now when I look back with all the government bullshit it just makes me sad......anyway just thought I'd apologise if anyone feels offended.

Don't worry Toomes, I didn't see any offence from you. And to be honest, I can understand that people are so frustrated by the current situation that whatever change is proposed, it looks tempting: it happens all around the world, not only in the UK.

I will just be so pissed if it fucks the price of eggs man!!!

DD

Quote from: doubledragoncc on June 22, 2016, 03:23:48 PM
I will just be so pissed if it fucks the price of eggs man!!!

DD

Lol, don't forget the bacon aswell man.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 22, 2016, 09:56:01 AM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 09:40:44 AM
Yawn.

As an aside surely you are not stupid enough to believe the official story of 9/11 are you Max? Are you Max????? Maybe you are..  :P

If I say I am stupid enough, will you stop spamming us with your enlightened theories ? Deal ?

If you really really insist, I'd suggest the admins to create a forum section called "The truth is in there" or "If you're stupid enough stay out of this section".
But again, I'm sure you can find much more empathy for your theories on other forums. And let us discuss "dumb" stuff here.
I mean, our stupidity could even start affecting you one day ... why insisting ?

Yawn.

Now this seems quite interesting. A CNBC poll suggests that nearly half of Brexit supporters think the referendum is rigged. Quite am interesting phenomenon.

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/nearly-half-of-brexit-supporters-think-the-referendum-is-rigged.html

grT

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 11:03:45 PM
Now this seems quite interesting. A CNBC poll suggests that nearly half of Brexit supporters think the referendum is rigged. Quite am interesting phenomenon.

How is this an interesting phenomenon?

I would have thought that was self-explanatory.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
Wishing us out because of some Island protection clauses is a bit harsh isn't it?

Just to reinstate how (not) harsh that would be: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/real-threat-britain-borders-flow-dirty-money-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/real-threat-britain-borders-flow-dirty-money-eu)

Disregard the conclusion (they guy wants you to stay), just soak-in the facts about money laundering, tax evasion, absence of mafia association crime, ...

In case you don't know who this guy is, he's done some pretty ballsy stuff when he was still in Italy (of course he had to flee it due to permanent death threats): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Saviano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Saviano)

Always thought that people that "play the gallery" just explain it better :)

Unfortunate that Coluche is no longer here to discuss this :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/iAgKHSNqxa8

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2016, 08:12:17 AM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 11:50:27 AM
Wishing us out because of some Island protection clauses is a bit harsh isn't it?

Just to reinstate how (not) harsh that would be: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/real-threat-britain-borders-flow-dirty-money-eu (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/23/real-threat-britain-borders-flow-dirty-money-eu)

Disregard the conclusion (they guy wants you to stay), just soak-in the facts about money laundering, tax evasion, absence of mafia association crime, ...

In case you don't know who this guy is, he's done some pretty ballsy stuff when he was still in Italy (of course he had to flee it due to permanent death threats): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Saviano (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Saviano)

But France get a worse corruption score than the UK in the links ???

Quote from: h106frp on June 23, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
But France get a worse corruption score than the UK in the links ???

I guess that was the point being made by the 1st paragraph: "True, the latest report from Transparency International, in 2015, put the UK in the top 10 cleanest countries in the world. Yet corruption has crept in, in the form of investments, many of which are the profits of illegal activity.". So on the surface all is clear and legal, but not so much when you dig.

True, the London property price bubble is fueled by 'foreign investors'

Again, not much of this 'wealth' feeds back to the rest of the country though  :(  It just another thing that is pricing the average citizen out of the country.

being as it's looking set to be an extremely close call, either way it goes, you're going to end up with half the country upset, and the other happy....  :(

The real issue for the UK will be the next general election - expect backlash voting especially as all the suppressed news from the last months starts to leak out.
The familiar government(s) only survived last time due to the peculiar way votes are converted into parliamentary seats in the UK and may not survive the next one if they anger too many of whichever side gets their way in the EU vote.

Brexit is 'not deliverable', says David Cameron's father-in-law

"Lord Astor, who is Samantha Cameron's step-father, has said that a Brexit would have "no legal standing" even if the public vote to leave the 28 member bloc in June."

"If the Brexiteers win, an exit from the EU is actually not deliverable. The EU referendum is merely advisory; it has no legal standing to force an exit."

"Parliament is still sovereign. We will need an Act of Parliament to revoke the European Communities Act 1972, by which Britain joined the EEC or Common Market, or perhaps a paving bill enabling the Government to start the Leave negotiations. But whatever, a vote will be required."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/brexit-is-not-deliverable-says-david-camerons-father-in-law/

Quote from: h106frp on June 23, 2016, 10:46:58 AM
The real issue for the UK will be the next general election - expect backlash voting especially as all the suppressed news from the last months starts to leak out.
The familiar government(s) only survived last time due to the peculiar way votes are converted into parliamentary seats in the UK and may not survive the next one if they anger too many of whichever side gets their way in the EU vote.

I think many people listened too much to the Tories in the last general election about the scare-mongering of the SNP winning the election. LOL  ;D

If people used their heads then they would realise that even in a general election they are only voting for their regional party and not for the whole country when polling their votes, so unless you lived in Scotland the SNP were never going to have any chance of winning their regional vote and yet a lot of people voted Tory because they thought that would stop any chance of the SNP gaining power.... How dumb can some people be! Lol   ::)   ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 23, 2016, 11:00:29 AM
Brexit is 'not deliverable', says David Cameron's father-in-law

"Lord Astor, who is Samantha Cameron's step-father, has said that a Brexit would have "no legal standing" even if the public vote to leave the 28 member bloc in June."

"If the Brexiteers win, an exit from the EU is actually not deliverable. The EU referendum is merely advisory; it has no legal standing to force an exit."

"Parliament is still sovereign. We will need an Act of Parliament to revoke the European Communities Act 1972, by which Britain joined the EEC or Common Market, or perhaps a paving bill enabling the Government to start the Leave negotiations. But whatever, a vote will be required."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/brexit-is-not-deliverable-says-david-camerons-father-in-law/

Well Cameron did state that the result of the referendum would have to go to a vote in parliament, so I guess that will be what that is about.... But that'll just be procedure.... I doubt any MP would be brave enough to defy the will of the British Public after a referendum has been made. Otherwise the whole political system would be regarded as a total joke! Not that it already isn't of course. Lol ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 23, 2016, 11:25:56 AM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 23, 2016, 11:00:29 AM
Brexit is 'not deliverable', says David Cameron's father-in-law

"Lord Astor, who is Samantha Cameron's step-father, has said that a Brexit would have "no legal standing" even if the public vote to leave the 28 member bloc in June."

"If the Brexiteers win, an exit from the EU is actually not deliverable. The EU referendum is merely advisory; it has no legal standing to force an exit."

"Parliament is still sovereign. We will need an Act of Parliament to revoke the European Communities Act 1972, by which Britain joined the EEC or Common Market, or perhaps a paving bill enabling the Government to start the Leave negotiations. But whatever, a vote will be required."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/07/brexit-is-not-deliverable-says-david-camerons-father-in-law/

Well Cameron did state that the result of the referendum would have to go to a vote in parliament, so I guess that will be what that is about.... But that'll just be procedure.... I doubt any MP would be brave enough to defy the will of the British Public after a referendum has been made. Otherwise the whole political system would be regarded as a total joke! Not that it already isn't of course. Lol ;D

Hawk.

Would be?!? ;D

Time will now tell.

I am a bit concerned the official 'marker' was a pencil??? Not even kidding!

seriously, Nick?
jeez, i'd be a little worried about that, especially with such a seemingly closely run referendum....  :o

Balls to that i've got a pen :o

If at first you don't succeed..

(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/Dont%20take%20no%20for%20an%20answer_zpsuqgvtibq.jpg)

Interesting there are no exit polls operating on this one. Oh well, we'll all just have to wait for the "grand" and "final" result to be officially declared.. ;)

grT 

Quote from: Hawk on June 23, 2016, 11:15:49 AM
I think many people listened too much to the Tories in the last general election about the scare-mongering of the SNP winning the election. LOL  ;D

If people used their heads then they would realise that even in a general election they are only voting for their regional party and not for the whole country when polling their votes, so unless you lived in Scotland the SNP were never going to have any chance of winning their regional vote and yet a lot of people voted Tory because they thought that would stop any chance of the SNP gaining power.... How dumb can some people be! Lol   ::)   ;D

Hawk.

"Single Party State" m8.. ;)

Opps..I might get told off by your Remain "spokesman" again..  :P

Have a nice polling day folks!

grT   

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 23, 2016, 12:58:12 PM
Time will now tell.

I am a bit concerned the official 'marker' was a pencil??? Not even kidding!

Exactly what I thought Nick..... You'd think they'd have a permanent marker pen at hand wouldn't you.  :o

But it does raise suspicions of possibly being able to rig the vote if they really wanted to, though it would be much easier for them to just dump a load of votes their way into the system rather than any possibility of rubbing out a pencil mark and remark how they want it so I don't really think their is any rational reason for us to be worried about it to be honest. Lol  ;D

Hawk.
PS:@grt: Single party state? No not at all..... Though a one world government would be good, though we are a few hundred years away from that yet..... We have a lot of growing-up to do before that could happen. Lol  ;D

Quote from: Hawk on June 23, 2016, 02:57:54 PM

PS:@grt: Single party state? No not at all..... Though a one world government would be good, though we are a few hundred years away from that yet..... We have a lot of growing-up to do before that could happen. Lol  ;D

I hear what you are saying Hawk. In idealistic terms I would be tempted to agree with you..and I think I understand where you are coming from with this. Sadly in this present existence where power dwells corruption and some would say evil intention dwells also. So I'm not quite sure humankind is ready for the experiment of a one world government quite as yet. As you say as a species we lack the maturity at this point in time to even contemplate such a venture. Which is part of the reason I stand steadfastly against the EU.. For myself and many others believe there is a push taking place at the moment for a form of one world government. If this is so I would venture to suggest it is not quite the form of governance that good people such as you might be envisioning..

Anyway look I do not wish to go all weird on you. So I will leave it at that.   

As regards the U.K. where I was really coming from with my flippant comment was that I feel in reality there is no essential difference between a "Blairite" Labour government and a Tory government. Both I would say dance to the same tune. Some might say the exact same is true of the U.S.A. ..

Anyway, have a good evening. If a Leave majority vote is declared in the morning I will fall off my chair in shock.

See you, grT  :)

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 23, 2016, 06:46:55 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 23, 2016, 02:57:54 PM

PS:@grt: Single party state? No not at all..... Though a one world government would be good, though we are a few hundred years away from that yet..... We have a lot of growing-up to do before that could happen. Lol  ;D

I hear what you are saying Hawk. In idealistic terms I would be tempted to agree with you..and I think I understand where you are coming from with this. Sadly in this present existence where power dwells corruption and some would say evil intention dwells also. So I'm not quite sure humankind is ready for the experiment of a one world government quite as yet. As you say as a species we lack the maturity at this point in time to even contemplate such a venture. Which is part of the reason I stand steadfastly against the EU.. For myself and many others believe there is a push taking place at the moment for a form of one world government. If this is so I would venture to suggest it is not quite the form of governance that good people such as you might be envisioning..

Anyway look I do not wish to go all weird on you. So I will leave it at that.   

As regards the U.K. where I was really coming from with my flippant comment was that I feel in reality there is no essential difference between a "Blairite" Labour government and a Tory government. Both I would say dance to the same tune. Some might say the exact same is true of the U.S.A. ..

Anyway, have a good evening. If a Leave majority vote is declared in the morning I will fall off my chair in shock.

See you, grT  :)

Until the time comes when people realise that this world can operate and co-operate without the need for money(and let's face it, most wars, troubles and crimes are committed because of money in one form or another), and believe me that time will come when certain technologies reveal themselves, or such a disastrous event occurs that forces us to do that to survive, then the powers that be will always want us to feel reliant on the current monetary system and consumer society and subsequent debt because that is were the BIG money is made in this current world order/system; unfortunately that also breeds massive greed, corruption and the fear of losing the power that comes with such personal wealth. That isn't going to change easily and is likely to take a good few generations yet before most people will even start to accept what has been going on.
But the change will come eventually for sure.  But at the moment the time is not right and trying to convince people otherwise is like trying to prove to people that they have met an extra terrestrial without any hard evidence to prove it. But the time will come when we so-called crackpots are proven right. Unfortunately I don't think I'll be around to see it happen, but I hope I am in some form or other. :)

As for the Election: After the result of the last general election it wouldn't surprise me at all if the final result was to remain, so I agree with you that it would be a very pleasant surprise if the referendum resulted in a mandate to leave the EU. Think positive! Let's all vote leave! ;D

Hawk.

..and on a lighter and more reassuring note at least things are under control on the other side of the Atlantic Hawk  ;)

https://www.youtube.com/v/t02uy57V95M

grT   

must say, i'm delightfully surprised to see that Brexit has won.
certainly wasn't expecting that, and - oh, btw, somebody please help grT up, i see she just fell out of her chair, LOL  :D

Damn I did not expect this.

So how long before Scotland has another independence referendum and decides to join the EU?

Well played David C. ! A true strategy masterpiece. I think he's gonna love the rest of his mandate. But it's OK, not sure it will last till 2020.

Quote from: Boerenlater on June 24, 2016, 06:06:02 AM
So how long before Scotland has another independence referendum and decides to join the EU?

The sooner the better (for Scotland, I mean). And Northern Ireland is surely pondering to be reunited with Ireland. Any news from Wales ? :)

Quote from: CapeDoctor on June 24, 2016, 04:19:02 AM
certainly wasn't expecting that, and - oh, btw, somebody please help grT up, i see she just fell out of her chair, LOL  :D

No, she's on the phone with the CIA to break them the news.

Oh boys, it's gonna be a long, funky day :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/B0ktojE6WQA

It's a shame that it wasn't a clear vicorty for either side. This is going to be a dificult situation to recover from as now half the fucking country is going to blame the other half for what evere happens next.

"Well if we hadn't voted to leave" "well if the EU-loyalist played ball"

I will be retreating to a dark cave with no internet or news outlets untill 2026 when we might strart to see people finally getting over this...

What a GREAT day this is..... and just loving the total despair being shown by some Tory "remain" mp's(it's like they think it's the end of the world! What dicks they are! Lol). What it is in reality is probably the end of their political careers!  ;D 8)

First casualty - Davide Cameron! WOO HOO!! Second casualty has got to be that smarmy git George Osbourne! WOO HOO! ;D 8)

Now we just have to deal with the inevitable stalling before they put article 50 into operation.  ::)

Hawk.

I'm as happy as Hawk for the smart boys that had the power.

But before calling it a great day, I'll suggest to take a look at the economic side of it: 120B GBP (billions) burnt on the London market since this morning. And counting ...

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 08:30:38 AM
What a GREAT day this is..... and just loving the total despair being shown by some Tory "remain" mp's(it's like they think it's the end of the world! What dicks they are! Lol). What it is in reality is probably the end of their political careers!  ;D 8)

First casualty - Davide Cameron! WOO HOO!! Second casualty has got to be that smarmy git George Osbourne! WOO HOO! ;D 8)

Now we just have to deal with the inevitable stalling before they put article 50 into operation.  ::)

Hawk.

Enjoy it while you can.

Goodbye UK...
So long, and thanks for all the fish and chips.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 08:37:16 AM
I'm as happy as Hawk for the smart boys that had the power.

But before calling it a great day, I'll suggest to take a look at the economic side of it: 120B GBP (billions) burnt on the London market since this morning. And counting ...

Don't worry about that Max.... It's just the bankers taking the opportunity to make big money.... It'll all calm down Max.
They cannot afford to let it fall too much so you just wait and see and it'll all calm down Max and surprise, surprise, it'll all start to stabilize again. Bankers love the opportunity to take advantage of these situations to make big trade deals and big money. I find it all SO FUNNY at how pathetic this system is, and just how much importance people hold to it! Hehe!  ;D

Now we've just got the pain of having to wait at least the two years of bureaucratic BS to actually leave the EU system.  >:(

But at least now we can look forward to Britain(the mother of the industrial world) being able to show the world how it's all done again!  ;D 8)

Well done UK for having the guts to do what's right! I was beginning  to doubt it but this result shows that the British spirit does indeed still live on! ;D 8)

As I just heard "Donald Trump" say: "It's a great day - the UK has took her country back". I'm not a fan of the guy but well said "Mr Trump"!!  You see Max, he knows how the financial system works more than most I would say, and he's not worried about what's going on in the markets. I've no doubt he's probably made another billion dollars from the financial turmoil that going on right now. Lol  ;D 8)


Hawk.
PS:@Borenlater: "Enjoy it while I can"? I presume you voted to remain. LOL!  :P ;D

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 09:07:35 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 08:37:16 AM
I'm as happy as Hawk for the smart boys that had the power.

But before calling it a great day, I'll suggest to take a look at the economic side of it: 120B GBP (billions) burnt on the London market since this morning. And counting ...

Don't worry about that Max.... It's just the bankers taking the opportunity to make big money.... It'll all calm down Max.
They cannot afford to let it fall too much so you just wait and see and it'll all calm down Max and surprise, surprise, it'll all start to stabilize again. Bankers love the opportunity to take advantage of these situations to make big trade deals and big money. I find it all SO FUNNY at how pathetic this system is, and just how much importance people hold to it! Hehe!  ;D

Now we've just got the pain of having to wait at least the two years of bureaucratic BS to actually leave the EU system.  >:(

But at least now we can look forward to Britain(the mother of the industrial world) being able to show the world how it's all done again!  ;D 8)

Well done UK for having the guts to do what's right! I was beginning  to doubt it but this result shows that the British spirit does indeed still live on! ;D 8)

As I just heard "Donald Trump" say: "It's a great day - the UK has took her country back". I'm not a fan of the guy but well said "Mr Trump"!!  You see Max, he knows how the financial system works more than most I would say, and he's not worried about what's going on in the markets. I've no doubt he's probably made another billion dollars from the financial turmoil that going on right now. Lol  ;D 8)


Hawk.
PS:@Borenlater: "Enjoy it while I can"? I presume you voted to remain. LOL!  :P ;D

I'm not a British citizen so I could not vote.

Quote from: PiBoSo on June 24, 2016, 09:07:11 AM

Goodbye UK...
So long, and thanks for all the fish and chips.

Why should it be good bye Pib? We can still all work together for a better world, and mark my words your country will probably be one of the next to do the same! :P;D

Hawk.

Quote from: Boerenlater on June 24, 2016, 09:15:56 AM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 09:07:35 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 08:37:16 AM
I'm as happy as Hawk for the smart boys that had the power.

But before calling it a great day, I'll suggest to take a look at the economic side of it: 120B GBP (billions) burnt on the London market since this morning. And counting ...

Don't worry about that Max.... It's just the bankers taking the opportunity to make big money.... It'll all calm down Max.
They cannot afford to let it fall too much so you just wait and see and it'll all calm down Max and surprise, surprise, it'll all start to stabilize again. Bankers love the opportunity to take advantage of these situations to make big trade deals and big money. I find it all SO FUNNY at how pathetic this system is, and just how much importance people hold to it! Hehe!  ;D

Now we've just got the pain of having to wait at least the two years of bureaucratic BS to actually leave the EU system.  >:(

But at least now we can look forward to Britain(the mother of the industrial world) being able to show the world how it's all done again!  ;D 8)

Well done UK for having the guts to do what's right! I was beginning  to doubt it but this result shows that the British spirit does indeed still live on! ;D 8)

As I just heard "Donald Trump" say: "It's a great day - the UK has took her country back". I'm not a fan of the guy but well said "Mr Trump"!!  You see Max, he knows how the financial system works more than most I would say, and he's not worried about what's going on in the markets. I've no doubt he's probably made another billion dollars from the financial turmoil that going on right now. Lol  ;D 8)


Hawk.
PS:@Borenlater: "Enjoy it while I can"? I presume you voted to remain. LOL!  :P ;D

I'm not a British citizen so I could not vote.

Then what were you talking about?  :)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 09:16:09 AM

Quote from: PiBoSo on June 24, 2016, 09:07:11 AM

Goodbye UK...
So long, and thanks for all the fish and chips.

Why should it be good bye Pib? We can still all work together for a better world, and mark my words your country will probably be one of the next to do the same! :P;D

Hawk.

Curiosity, which country you're referring to ?
I'm not sure you know which country Piboso is from, otherwise you wouldn't say that.

the world was doing just fine before the EU, and it'll do just fine after it.  ;)

Quote from: CapeDoctor on June 24, 2016, 09:38:57 AM
the world was doing just fine before the EU, and it'll do just fine after it.  ;)

???
Ever heard of a little thing called WWII?

Ah look, the Remains are already bandwaggoning the "oh look at the pound" feeble last gasp, "told you so" patheticness, "it was an immigration vote racist" and strangely yet more scaremongering.

Three things I can say for Cameron so far:

1. He seems genuinely upset which means he probably genuinely thought Remain was right. I can respect that.
2. He has the decency to leave and let someone who actually believes Brexit was right to lead us on. I can respect that.
3. He hasn't immediately started blabbing about imminent disasters and I told you so's. I can respect that.

Now all he needs to do is go and find a pleb job (if he can) which might bring him all the way down to earth.

It seems there are a few non-UK citizens here now wishing the UK breaks up and we are plunged into despair. I cannot respect that.
Maybe start looking closer to home (French right trying to gain momentum for a Referendum to leave already!  :o).

Sorry but even if the UK now sinks below the waves no-one hiding under their beds not voting, or outside of the UK  can slag it off for going the direction of its people and saving democracy.

Quote from: PiBoSo on June 24, 2016, 09:43:52 AM

Quote from: CapeDoctor on June 24, 2016, 09:38:57 AM
the world was doing just fine before the EU, and it'll do just fine after it.  ;)

???
Ever heard of a little thing called WWII?

Pib.... You surely don't honestly believe the bureaucracy of the EU has kept the peace in Europe for the last 51 years? You listen too much to the politicians.  :o ::)

@Max: I'm presuming from Piboso's statement that he is a resident of an EU country, otherwise what is he talking about?  Also I'd bet that Pib is an Italian from what we know of him(but I could be wrong. Lol).  Reveal yourself Mr Pib! Lol ;D

Hawk.

i always assumed PiBoSo to be Italian.....
so yes, tell us, dear PiB, where yo are living, mate...?   :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 09:46:01 AM
Three things I can say for Cameron so far:

1. He seems genuinely upset which means he probably genuinely thought Remain was right. I can respect that.

Or maybe he thought that calling a referendum will put him in a stronger positiojn to negotiate with the EU even looser conditions for the UK "membership".
And in the end he got screwed by his own tactic. And a few others with him.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 09:46:01 AM
2. He has the decency to leave and let someone who actually believes Brexit was right to lead us on. I can respect that.

Me too. Except maybe he didn't really have any other choice.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 09:46:01 AM
3. He hasn't immediately started blabbing about imminent disasters and I told you so's. I can respect that.

Likely because he can't care less (now). He's done, but he probably has enough set (safely) aside to buy a small Caribbean island and drink pinacoladas served in virgins' belly buttons until the end of time.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 09:46:01 AM
It seems there are a few non-UK citizens here now wishing the UK breaks up and we are plunged into despair. I cannot respect that.
Maybe start looking closer to home (French right trying to gain momentum for a Referendum to leave already!  :o).

I mostly wish for Scotland to break for their own good, not to sink the UK: as a general rule, I tend to be in favor of splitting when you can't agree on 99% of the stuff you discuss.
It's funny how UK want's to be "independent" from the EU but when it's Scotland willing to be independent from the UK the speech is quite a bit different.

But I bear no grudge now that UK is out: I would have if it were to stay in the EU (at his own special conditions).

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 09:46:01 AM
Sorry but even if the UK now sinks below the waves no-one hiding under their beds not voting, or outside of the UK  can slag it off for going the direction of its people and saving democracy.

I absolutely agree that the referendum result must be honored (and that, whatever the outcome). But Cameron wanted to play the whole thing too smartly and got caught in his own trap.That's what  he's being slagged off.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 10:00:52 AM
Pib.... You surely don't honestly believe the bureaucracy of the EU has kept the peace in Europe for the last 51 years? You listen too much to the politicians.  :o ::)

The EU surely contributed a lot in keeping a relative peace around in Europe. Mostly, without the help of the US/UK.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 10:00:52 AM
@Max: I'm presuming from Piboso's statement that he is a resident of an EU country, otherwise what is he talking about?  Also I'd bet that Pib is an Italian from what we know of him(but I could be wrong. Lol).  Reveal yourself Mr Pib! Lol ;D

But what makes you think Italy will do the same as the UK ?!

Why do you think we oppress Scotland? Mel Gibson's version of history took quite a lot of liberties  ;)

The SNP only represent half of Scotland and the last Scottish minister who pinned his career on it is now unemployed.

I am happy for Scotland to do whatever it thinks is right for its own future, interestingly Wales voted out.

What did the Romans do for us? Hadrian's Wall  ;D

Is Spain intending to free Catalonia?

Few places France might consider giving back
n South American: French Guiana.
In the Atlantic Ocean: Saint Pierre and Miquelon and, in the Antilles: Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Martin and Saint Barthélemy.
In the Pacific Ocean: French Polynesia, the special collectivity of New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna and Clipperton Island.
In the Indian Ocean: Réunion island, Scattered Islands in the Indian Ocean, Crozet Islands, St. Paul and Amsterdam islands.
In the Indian Ocean: Kerguelen Islands.
In the Antarctic: Adélie Land.
Corsica

All in fun  ;)

England want Scotland to stay United of course! We love the Scots, our age old neighbours (with a few petty squabbles) for thousands of years. I don't remember any referendum asking the English if they wanted Scotland to go Independent? As I remember the Scottish people voted to remain realising we are still stronger together, as history tells.

Now I feel sorry for Scottish people really. Already the SNP are throwing away their peoples democratic decision of not wanting independence from the UK, under the guise of "but the EU said we had to stay in the UK to remain an EU trader". What a political spin  - another referendum is just their party's way of having another go at the Independence vote, ignoring the peoples choice - hmmm just like some other fascist countries we could mention.  - I can see them rubbing their hands with glee at the second chance this has brought - and to be honest it really smacks of the party's cowardice that exit scares them so much they want to fall back into the EU short term safety net. If I was Scottish I would be very angry at their 'leaders' for dismissing their peoples views so glibly and consider their position.
I hope the Scottish people don't fall for that one.

On a funnier note giving away our Sovereignty to Europe is an actual act of treason no matter how you look at it. I quite like the idea of rounding up the traitors (Remain camp), and spending the saved EU money building prisons.  Cutting the population roughly in half (well a poor 48%) and incarcerating them (treason still equals life imprisonment) will instantly cure any unemployment problems, housing problems, and a myriad of other problems (maybe not welfare problems but hey). Failing that, hopefully they will all 'migrate' into the EU safety net. Get ready for an influx of UK immigrants!

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 11:36:37 AM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 10:00:52 AM
Pib.... You surely don't honestly believe the bureaucracy of the EU has kept the peace in Europe for the last 51 years? You listen too much to the politicians.  :o ::)

The EU surely contributed a lot in keeping a relative peace around in Europe. Mostly, without the help of the US/UK.

I think you'll find that NATO is the main reason peace has reined in Europe since it's formation and not the BS bureaucratic economical system of the EU Max.  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 11:36:37 AM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 10:00:52 AM
@Max: I'm presuming from Piboso's statement that he is a resident of an EU country, otherwise what is he talking about?  Also I'd bet that Pib is an Italian from what we know of him(but I could be wrong. Lol).  Reveal yourself Mr Pib! Lol ;D

But what makes you think Italy will do the same as the UK ?!

Well already other countries are talking about having a referendum themselves now they've seen the result from the UK, so how long do you think it will be till Italy and the rest do the same?


A Scottish Ref on Independence: Go for it Scotland!  ;D

Now Northern Ireland want an independence ref too! Woo Hooo!!! Hehe!  ;D 8)

Sometimes people/countries need to jump into the fire before they realise systems need to change........ This is part of the major shift we needed, so  with all that's happened and is likely to transpire as a result then this is indeed a greater day than I ever dreamed off!  ;D  8)

Hawk.

Quote from: h106frp on June 24, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Why do you think we oppress Scotland? Mel Gibson's version of history took quite a lot of liberties  ;)

Because they very clearly want to stay in the EU and they won't be able to ?
Because when the last referendum was done (and they have chosen to stay), our friend David has been fairly explicit about this being some sort of final decision (like in "no new referendum in the next 10 years") ?
Because Scotland is much more sensible to social policies than the UK (but they still have to swallow UK decisions) ?
Because when they were very vocal about (just an example) the bedroom tax, the chaps in London said "Yeah yeah. Just swallow the pill pal, ok ? " ?

Quote from: h106frp on June 24, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Is Spain intending to free Catalonia?

Unlikely. Should they ? Probably. I'd say it's up to the Catalans to decide.
I can argue I think it's better for them to stay, but if they want to go then I'd let it be.

We've seen in the past that if you want people with different opinions to stay, you have to give them something.
If you don't intend to do so, it's better to let them go. For both.

Quote from: h106frp on June 24, 2016, 12:20:46 PM
Few places France might consider giving back
n South American: French Guiana.
In the Atlantic Ocean: Saint Pierre and Miquelon and, in the Antilles: Guadeloupe, Martinique, Saint Martin and Saint Barthélemy.
In the Pacific Ocean: French Polynesia, the special collectivity of New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna and Clipperton Island.
In the Indian Ocean: Réunion island, Scattered Islands in the Indian Ocean, Crozet Islands, St. Paul and Amsterdam islands.
In the Indian Ocean: Kerguelen Islands.
In the Antarctic: Adélie Land.
Corsica

Any of them (including Corsica) are very free to go if they want, if you ask me.
But none of them (including Corsica) actually really wants to go. Corsica is the only one where you have some sort of willingness to go (but even this, it's very minor). French DOM TOM are very happy to stay french as far as I know.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
I think you'll find that NATO is the main reason peace has reined in Europe since it's formation and not the BS bureaucratic economical system of the EU Max.  ;)

Yeah sure, the NATO ... our good american friends ... real pace-keepers. And I'm the one swallowing the bullshit ...

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
Well already other countries are talking about having a referendum themselves now they've seen the result from the UK, so how long do you think it will be till Italy and the rest do the same?

Which countries ? Nobody has even started discussing a potential referendum. You're picking up some noise about what could potentially happen and transforming it into "it's happening right now".
In Italy there's no discussion at all.

The only thing that is really happening is that a meeting of the (now) 27 EU nations is planned for next week to discuss (without the UK) how to handle the Brexit.
And the first signs do not seem to indicate the EU will be as tender as many of the leave leaders said it would be. The message is: out is out.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
A Scottish Ref on Independence: Go for it Scotland!  ;D

Now Northern Ireland want an independence ref too! Woo Hooo!!! Hehe!  ;D 8)

Sometimes people/countries need to jump into the fire before they realise systems need to change........ This is part of the major shift we needed, so  with all that's happened and is likely to transpire as a result then this is indeed a greater day than I ever dreamed off!  ;D  8)

:o
Do you realize SCo and NI are talking about independence from the UK, not from the EU ?

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 01:35:43 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
I think you'll find that NATO is the main reason peace has reined in Europe since it's formation and not the BS bureaucratic economical system of the EU Max.  ;)

Yeah sure, the NATO ... our good american friends ... real pace-keepers. And I'm the one swallowing the bullshit ...

Like it or not Max, it's a fact that it is NATO that has kept the peace in Europe and NOT the EU. The USA might well be the largest partner in NATO, but it is an Alliance of countries specifically to protect those countries from any military aggression from another country and without NATO we would probably have been involved in another world war by now with Russia's recent antics.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 01:35:43 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
Well already other countries are talking about having a referendum themselves now they've seen the result from the UK, so how long do you think it will be till Italy and the rest do the same?

Which countries ? Nobody has even started discussing a potential referendum. You're picking up some noise about what could potentially happen and transforming it into "it's happening right now".
In Italy there's no discussion at all.

I did say countries and not "Governments" and I personally class the people of a country as that country when talking about a country...... Though admittedly I'd probably be better understood by saying that the people of certain countries are talking about wanting a referendum to come out the EU, but that's just nit-picking really, because if the people want a referendum then eventually they have to have one.  :P

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 01:35:43 PM
The only thing that is really happening is that a meeting of the (now) 27 EU nations is planned for next week to discuss (without the UK) how to handle the Brexit.
And the first signs do not seem to indicate the EU will be as tender as many of the leave leaders said it would be. The message is: out is out.

All bluster and wind Max.... Of course they'll want to do a deal with the UK for trade.... Let's wait and see what actually happens, eh.  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 24, 2016, 01:35:43 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 12:57:30 PM
A Scottish Ref on Independence: Go for it Scotland!  ;D

Now Northern Ireland want an independence ref too! Woo Hooo!!! Hehe!  ;D 8)

Sometimes people/countries need to jump into the fire before they realise systems need to change........ This is part of the major shift we needed, so  with all that's happened and is likely to transpire as a result then this is indeed a greater day than I ever dreamed off!  ;D  8)

:o
Do you realize SCo and NI are talking about independence from the UK, not from the EU ?

Oh Christ! It's well known that Scotland and NI wanted to stay in the EU Max! Lol  ;D
Do I have to be so specific for you when I'm talking in context to what the SNP leader and Sinn Fein leader have talked about on the news, that they are looking for "Independence from the UK" as a result of the UK "dragging them" out of the EU..... Jesus! Your hard work sometimes Max. Lol    ::) ;D

Hawk.

In my estimation..Hawk is sort of right and so is Max.

The real reason that there has been peace on the continent of Europe since WWII is because all European nations are vassal states of Washington. A situation enforced not only through NATO but also through the uniformly imposed private banking system that applies without exception throughout the whole of Europe. Why would the European nations under such an arrangement fight amongst themselves when in reality there's nothing left to fight for?

Despite the commonly held belief that WWII was a war fought over invasions (expansionism on the part of Germany) and counter defence by the allies it was in reality a war fought over two opposing systems of finance and currency. As was the case in the early part of the 19th century with the "take-down" of Napoleon. Hitler dispensed with the incumbent Rothschild owned German central bank and introduced his own independent system of finance and currency issuance just as Napoleon did in earlier times with his "Infamous Decree" of 1808.

Post World War II quote - Winston Churchill, Bern 1960.

"Germany's unforgivable crime before the second world war was its attempt to loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up her own exchange system from which the world-finance couldn't profit anymore...We butchered the wrong pig."

The sad reality of course is that whilst there has been no significant wars on the continent of Europe since 1945 we have however waged war elsewhere upon Asians and Arabs (amongst others) and such peoples have died in their millions. We now have the post millenium phenomenon of PNAC and the planned conquest of 7 nations by Washington to which 9/11 was the precursor- google General Wesley Clarke plan to invade 7 nations in 5 years), the Oded Yinon plan and the phenomenon of petrodollar/currency warfare in the Middle East and North Africa. So all in all it's not a pretty sight EU or no EU, NATO or no NATO. We are now instigating at our volition a potential military/nuclear confrontation with Russia and possibly China..so no I wouldn't say the world has necessarily become a safer place since WWII. To the contrary we now exist in reality in a state of perpetual war.

I am of course delighted by the Brexit result. The markets will speculate as they would always do against sterling (my late father was a City of London broker and would have expected nothing less I think) but it is the longer term perspective that will be the acid test for this exit vote. 

I didn't fall off my chair but I did trip over my pyjama bottoms rushing to the tv this morning though when my flat-mate told me the result..  :)

https://www.youtube.com/v/z8ityb0Ips4

grT




   

Trump says its a good choice and he is half Scottish . 

PiB buys his domains from Belgium. But I guess it's all the same with the EU and what not, hard to tell where someone is hiding inside of it.

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 02:23:12 PM
All bluster and wind Max.... Of course they'll want to do a deal with the UK for trade.... Let's wait and see what actually happens, eh.  ;)

Of course like in:
(http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7943774.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/JS89532410.jpg)

Followed by:

https://www.youtube.com/v/B0ktojE6WQA

I didn't see your comment about that, but that's fine I guess.

Of course there will be a deal, but you can be sure it won't be as favourable for you as it was before.

Anyway, the referendum outcome is what it is. People voted, result is confirmed. I'm happy, you're happy. All good.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 24, 2016, 02:31:11 PM
Trump says its a good choice and he is half Scottish .

This Donald Trump ? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/donald-trump-says-its-great-8271738 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/donald-trump-says-its-great-8271738)

"Donald Trump says it's a "great thing" Britain has "taken back their country" as he arrives in Scotland"

Not sure the Scots were exactly enchanted by that declaration :)

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 02:23:12 PM
rotect those countries from any military aggression from another country and without NATO we would probably have been involved in another world war by now with Russia's recent antics.

What has Russia done? Aside from looking after her own national security interests in the Crimea  in response to Washington's "Playbook" CIA Coup d'état against the democratically elected government of the Ukraine in 2014?

Who is siting nuclear missiles along the length of who's border (and installing a "defensive" missile system alongside its offensive missiles at the same time to compliment each other)? Answer: Not Russia.

What would be the reaction in Washington I wonder if Russia or China installed nuclear missiles in Mexico alongside the borders of the U.S.A.?

NATO troops are also massing along Russia borders as we speak. And conducting large scale and potentially highly provocative military exercises at the same time. Again right alongside Russia's borders..

I would politely suggest the real aggressor here is Washington/NATO. Not Russia.

One could make the same claims against Washington in the South China Sea also..

I am tbh confused how anyone might interpret the current situation in the world as anything other than aggression and provocation on the part of Washington and the banking interests which seem to influence Washington in its foreign policy agenda. 

My genuine concern is that mainstream media propaganda in the West has now overtaken reality. The reality concerning Russia, one might argue, is presently a sort of re-run of the Cuban missile crisis of 1962 but on a much larger scale and with the relative positions reversed. It seems funny to me how when Russia placed missiles on the island of Cuba in 1962 this was seen as dangerous and highly provocative (which it was although there was an explanation at least for this happening) but when Washington/NATO does the same thing on a much "grander" scale in 2016 it is immediately portrayed as "defensive" and "non-provocative" by the Western mainstream media. Really I think the hypocrisy involved in this is absurd. I do accept however that my personal opinion on this represents a minority viewpoint in the West.

I can't help but think that it is a very dangerous and a very funny old world that we presently live in. I suppose Russia taking the initiative to de-dolarise and seek its own currency and trading initiatives outside of the dollar frame-work might be considered a step too far as far as Washington and Washington's "owners" are concerned? I suppose one could suggest similar contradictions apply with regard to the U.S.A.'s heightened tensions with China also? Certainly I think there are two sides to every story at the very least..

Throw into the mix the proxy war in Syria and things do seem to be very precariously balanced at the moment to say the least.

I think this is why I don't take that much notice of the Western mainstream media these days if I'm honest.. ;)

grT

 

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 24, 2016, 02:24:19 PM

I didn't fall off my chair but I did trip over my pyjama bottoms rushing to the tv this morning....

i'm not going to ask how you managed that, lol....  ;D

Happy for the decision, personally I think it's the right one and one more thing" grT your just to deep for me where do you get this information from... Do I need to get an elite team of soldiers together to fight off the aliens when they invade the planet.

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 24, 2016, 05:46:56 PM
Happy for the decision, personally I think it's the right one and one more thing" grT your just to deep for me where do you get this information from... Do I need to get an elite team of soldiers together to fight off the aliens when they invade the planet.

lol. Yes they're coming for us all.. We're all doomed you know? They want to breed with us (every one of us) and create a new race of hybrid lizards with even larger wings.. It will happen this year.

grT

Well if they stop me from watching MotoGP their gonna get their asses kicked back to Mars.

@grt:
Oh.... I think all major world governments are as bad as each other with all this geo-political manoeuvring and trying to secure the Earths wealth and resources to secure their own futures, so I don't think defending any of them is worth it at all. We all know they are up to no good in one form or another.  ;)

The fact is that the Earth hasn't the resources to provide everyone in this world with the living standards that the major powers on this planet enjoy, and sooner or later conflict will be inevitable unless the system changes or technologies are revealed that will solve a lot of the resource problems. But while a monetary system is what is worshiped on this world and resources become increasingly harder to find then conflict will always be a danger. :)

@Max: I've never really given a monkeys how much we send to the EU each year or how much we get back - the issue for me was about getting control of our country back from those bureaucrats in Brussels.  :P
I think most are intelligent enough to know that politicians lie and cheat in campaigns in an attempt to brainwash the electorate to vote their way. So it's nothing new to me Max and certainly something I'm well aware of.  :)

But this referendum vote wasn't against the people of Europe(some seem to be getting the wrong impression), it was simply against the way the European Government was slowly but surely taking away our sovereignty and rights to make our own laws and make our own futures in this world. We don't need a nanny state to guide us all.  They should've left well alone. :P

Hawk.
PS: Don't start me off about E.T.'s. LOL   ;D

Well if Scotland leave.. We gonna need a castle black and a large wall  :D

to be honest, i dont really care about this topic all that much, certainly not like you guys do.
you do what you want and see if it works for you.
this (http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/683003/Brexit-shock-France-overtakes-UK-worlds-fifth-largest-economy-pound-plunges) obviously isn't a surprise but let's see how long it stays that way.

still, i would like to know where exactly the EU took away your sovereignty?
i'm sure there are many examples, so a short list shouldn't be hard to compile.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 11:03:45 PM
Now this seems quite interesting. A CNBC poll suggests that nearly half of Brexit supporters think the referendum is rigged. Quite am interesting phenomenon.

since the election was obviously not rigged, it means that half of the brexit supporters are probably people who prefer believing in unproven speculation instead of facts.

Pound/Dollar is about where it started trending to this time last year and is probably more closely linked to QE than anything else, when the US stopped printing money we carried on and thus devalued our own currency.

Despite all the alarm the FTSE is higher than it was at the start of the week and significantly higher than when the banks destroyed the economy for us

Quote from: vin97 on June 24, 2016, 06:58:01 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 22, 2016, 11:03:45 PM
Now this seems quite interesting. A CNBC poll suggests that nearly half of Brexit supporters think the referendum is rigged. Quite am interesting phenomenon.

since the election was obviously not rigged, it means that half of the brexit supporters are probably people who prefer believing in unproven speculation instead of facts.

;D

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 06:38:56 PM
The fact is that the Earth hasn't the resources to provide everyone in this world with the living standards that the major powers on this planet enjoy, and sooner or later conflict will be inevitable unless the system changes [...]

That is where I totally agree. But sectionalism like Brexit surely won't help with this problem. The EU in general (with all its problems) is something very much advanced imho and I think it is a sad day to have Britain opt out of it. In some age in the future, things like national borders, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, language etc will only be marginal important - in some hundred years there will be something like a collective government, collective laws and collective rules for distribution of wealth in the world - something like a WU world union, I am pretty sure about that. Either that or mankind will be exterminated due to some religious war or a war over resources in the meantime. I hope for the former... and the EU is something like a prototype of something like that. I just think everybody who is in favor of Brexit is thinking just very short-term and very provincialistic. In the long run, only united solutions can prevail... the problems of EU should for sure be tackled - but the idea of the EU itself is without alternative in the long run in my opinion... just my 2 cents.

nicely written, stout, i agree.
the (political) problems of most western democracies are very similar, no matter if isolated or united. i think the chance of fixing them is higher when all people see themselves as part of the same thing, though.

Quote from: vin97 on June 24, 2016, 06:58:01 PM


since the election was obviously not rigged, it means that half of the brexit supporters are probably people who prefer believing in unproven speculation instead of facts.

Of course it is not unproven speculation to suggest that vote rigging and election fraud can and does take place throughout the world. That's an accepted fact.  ;)

Just as it is factual to state that aerosol geoengineering (weather modification) projects exist and are ongoing and that contracts and patents are being set with the involvement of NASA and U.S. government agencies. So the phenomenon of chem-trails is real..  (pulling Stout's leg..)  ;D

A world collective government?  ;D

Sorry to say , but keep dreaming Stout, that will never happen. Countries culture are too different each other. Can you imagine North Corea working toghether with the rest of the world?

Should've left your comment unedited, grT :D

The statistic was speficially about the referendum (not election, sorry for that) and it turned out that it was not rigged.

Quote from: vin97 on June 24, 2016, 06:58:01 PM
since the election was obviously not rigged, it means that half of the brexit supporters are probably people who prefer believing in unproven speculation instead of facts.

Main part of my post went missing. My fault.

What I was trying to say was that the level of general mistrust witnessed in the U.K. population over this referendum was quite unprecedented. Mistrust not only in the government itself but also in its agencies and intelligence services. Fear of the government fixing the result was widespread. Really quite unprecedented.  Hence I posted the link.

To illustrate the "mood" even Nigel Farage himself (leader of the anti-EU UKIP party) within minutes of the polls closing last night (before 1st result even declared) publicly accused the government of fixing the result in their favour by extending the deadline for voter registrations by 24 hours. He made this accusation on live t.v.  Again unprecedented for a senior politician to do this.

Also inadvertently the BBC caught on camera some apparent vote rigging in action albeit on a small scale during live coverage of an official count. A person was seen in the background of one of the live shots apparently changing the vote on a ballot paper. Within minutes the BBC switchboards were jammed by concerned viewers phoning up to report the crime..!

Quite a night! lol.

Rubbing out my pencil X  >:(

Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2016, 02:23:12 PM
Protect those countries from any military aggression from another country and without NATO we would probably have been involved in another world war by now with Russia's recent antics.

:D, did you know — official russian army staying in Crimea since 1778 and NEVER after leaved it? State "Ukraine" firstly was organized in 1917 on the territory of one city (Kiev) and died after 4 monthes. What russians thinking about ukrainians at this moment — madness zoo with regular Darwin awards.
Open the map — is anyone really believe the russians need more territories? For what?!

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 24, 2016, 04:58:08 PM

Totally right, with little addition — final point of the Russia initiatives is to make the multipolar world, where all the countries are equal. No more superpowers.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 24, 2016, 09:01:33 PM
Just as it is factual to state that aerosol geoengineering (weather modification) projects exist and are ongoing and that contracts and patents are being set with the involvement of NASA and U.S. government agencies. So the phenomenon of chem-trails is real..  (pulling Stout's leg..)  ;D

now this is why arguing with someone like you is futile. you just write sth without any proof and act like it is undisputable - and then you feel superior in the argumentation although you did not prove anything... the theory on chemtrails is much much extensive than mere aerosol geoengineering (weather modification) - the latter exists and is not neglected by anybody whereas the extensive theory on chemtrails is just a myth

Quote from: Warlock on June 24, 2016, 09:27:45 PM
A world collective government?  ;D

Sorry to say , but keep dreaming Stout, that will never happen. Countries culture are too different each other. Can you imagine North Corea working toghether with the rest of the world?

For an artist that you are, you seem to be narrow-minded buddy. Do you really think North Corea will be a dictatorship forever? Your question is similar to asking a person in 1914 or 1938 whether he/she could ever imagine France and Germany ever to be part of a collective european organisation like the EU. I don't say it will happen within the next hundred years, it might take several hundred years but in the end countries/governments will move closely together and differences will be marginalized.

I agree it won't come easy and it might only be due to catastrophies, crisis and wars that it will eventually happen (e.g. WW II and Cuban Missile Crisis were important factors in multinational peace treaties) but it will happen sooner or later.

"Countries" are not really different to each other - it is perceptions, religions, languages, political ideologies of people in charge that make a difference. Just look at your country Spain - just compare it 50 years ago with what is Spain now - it is a sharp contrast. Or just look at the world. 500 years ago the most important question was which religion would prevail, 100 years ago the most disputed question was whether socialism or capitalism would prevail. Although those questions still do exist to some degree, they are being marginalized over time. And I think this process will continue over time (although it might be a rocky road), people will sooner or later realize that we all are not that different... I am not naive, I am just analyzing history  ;)

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 25, 2016, 07:23:48 AM

now this is why arguing with someone like you is futile. you just write sth without any proof and act like it is undisputable - and then you feel superior in the argumentation although you did not prove anything... the theory on chemtrails is much much extensive than mere aerosol geoengineering (weather modification) - the latter exists and is not neglected by anybody whereas the extensive theory on chemtrails is just a myth

This is why conversing (not arguing) with individuals such as yourself can at times feel somewhat futile. There's now overwhelming evidence that the chem-trail phenomenon is widespread and very real. There are emerging academic papers and published opinion from independent scientific experts in all relevant fields to support this fact. Moreover there is now formal admittance from governmental bodies that geo-engineering programmes are active, "live" and that the technology is moving forward.

Now your inference Stout, a number of posts back. was that chem-trails were the stuff of conspiracy theory (implication being I suppose that such a phenomenon didn't necessarily exist?). Your post and your words Stout not mine. I can't recall your exact wording. However, as I say, things have now moved on considerably from the position of mere conjecture or theory. The fact now is that a cocktail of heavy metals (including barium, strontium and aluminium) as part of an extended weather modification programme, is being released on a regular basis into our atmosphere. Fact not fiction.

In Australia quite an intriguing new development is also being discussed. The Office of the Gene Technology Regulator (OGTR) is looking at a licence application from PaxVax Australia (PaxVax) for the intentional release of a GMO vaccine consisting of live bacteria into the Australian environment. According to the regulator, it qualifies as a limited and controlled release under section 50A of the Gene Technology Act 2000. So an aerosol atmospheric release of something constituting a GMO vaccine is now actively being pursued. Now quite a lot of conjecture exists, unsurprisingly, as to how such a new application for aerosol spraying might be used and developed in the future.

My honest and well meant advice if you hold an interest in subjects that are not covered in the mainstream media is to seek reliable and accurate sources elsewhere. If all one does is listen to the MSM one's view of the world might end up being slightly blinkered. I know I've been there myself..  ;)

grT

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 25, 2016, 08:37:07 AM
Moreover there is now formal admittance from governmental bodies that geo-engineering programmes are active, "live" and that the technology is moving forward. [..]

Now your inference Stout, a number of posts back. was that chem-trails were the stuff of conspiracy theory (implication being I suppose that such a phenomenon didn't necessarily exist?).

It would be helpful if you would actually read what I am writing ::) It would be helpful if you would not just take the possibility of adressing something I wrote as a possibility for self-manifestation but rather really look into what I am expressing...

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 25, 2016, 07:23:48 AM
the theory on chemtrails is much much extensive than mere aerosol geoengineering (weather modification) - the latter exists and is not neglected by anybody whereas the extensive theory on chemtrails is just a myth

In short: Only the aerosol geoengineering as part of the chem-trails theory does happen (again: I don't doubt that, never did), whereas the extensive theory on "chem-trails" is just a conspiracy theory. To be absolutely sure, we don't talk about different things here: "aerosol geoengineering" is the effort to influence weather phenomenons via chemical exposure. The theory on "chem-trails" is more extensive and also includes the belief that governments secretly spread chemicals to e.g. influence birth rates or do psychological manipulation. This (at least for western civilizations today) is totally nuts. I myself know people who believe in this stuff and they even see normal condensation trails as proof for chem-trails...

@Stout: Don't you roll your eyes at me young man..!!

lol. Only joking..

Having checked back on your posts to be fair to us both you didn't really amplify on what you were getting at, or alluding to, with regard to chem-trails at all. Your earlier post in turn followed on from another post in which you did seem to be dismissing "carte blanche" the conceivable legitimacy of any and all conspiracy theories. So anyway, no harm done..  :)

I am aware of the possible theoretical links put forward by some between aerosol spraying and eugenics..but of course this constitutes nothing more than imaginative speculation at this time. So I take your point in that regard.

As an observation what I find interesting is that officialdom, it could be argued, has it's own conspiracy theories. Take for example the official story relating to 9/11..inconsistent and as dubious in circumstantial and scientific supportive evidence as this particular "official" conspiracy theory might seem..  Yet many people unquestioningly believe "official" conspiracy theories whilst at the same choose to dismiss all and every non-official conspiracy theory..irrespective of the breadth and depth of the supportive evidence. As I say just an observation. 

As an aside Stout how do you feel about the possible uniform imposition of TTIP upon the EU member states?

grT



 

Well i am even more disillusioned with politicians this morning;

Dave throwing his dummy and calling the job we elected and pay him to do 'sh%t' and Osbourne and his disappearing act. Note to both - you are paid civil servants, grow up and deal with it.

The EU leaders are having an emergency meeting to decide how best to punish the UK for exercising a democratic vote and to deter its own citizens for asking for any type of reform; looks like 'project fear' is regrettably going to be one of our last exports to the rest of europe then. Notte to them - the rules for exit are the ones you approved - grow up and deal with it.

Its sad but it looks like the ruling elite of europe is finally pinning its true colors to the mast.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 25, 2016, 10:34:01 AMchem-trails

ok, i'm out.

Quote from: h106frp on June 25, 2016, 11:53:24 AM
The EU leaders are having an emergency meeting to decide how best to punish the UK for exercising a democratic vote and to deter its own citizens for asking for any type of reform; looks like 'project fear' is regrettably going to be one of our last exports to the rest of europe then. Notte to them - the rules for exit are the ones you approved - grow up and deal with it.

As far as I know they are not going to discuss or alter the exit rules, that's just not possible. They just have to roughly settle the guidelines for the comm on the plan (what and when) and the conditions of the future deal with the UK.

Of course, you can't expect them to cut you a deal that is equal or better then the one you currently have: said otherwise, the deal will be worse.
I find this totally normal and not retaliation at all. Joining the EU comes with some burden and some advantages: you leave, you lose both.
As they say in France "On peut pas avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre" :)

Probably the biggest lie (set aside the 350m GBP/week stuff) that the leave camp has told everybody: don't worry, when we leave we'll negotiate a deal, same as before hands down, maybe even better.  Of course, this won't happen. There will be a deal for sure, but the conditions will be worse, because:

• the EU is a club. Like any club, paying members must have some sort of advantage.
• that's what you get when a 60m population state negotiates with a 400m population "state".

There's no punishment, it's just business and common sense. And the fact that this would be the course had been announced multiple times before the ref day: multiple EU leaders made it clear, out is out. No more space for "let's negotiate something special for me because you know, I'm the UK".

Quote from: vin97 on June 25, 2016, 12:14:57 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 25, 2016, 10:34:01 AMchem-trails

ok, i'm out.

Stay, just skip "some" messages :)

Quote from: vin97 on June 25, 2016, 12:14:57 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 25, 2016, 10:34:01 AMchem-trails

ok, i'm out.

Mentioned by Stout in the first instance not I.

I tend to skip through posts in any forum thread that don't particularly interest me also. I think that's pretty much standard practice these days. Broadening the discussion can sometimes bear some fruit though. That's sometimes how we can learn new facts about the world we live in.  :)

grT

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 25, 2016, 07:23:48 AM

Quote from: Warlock on June 24, 2016, 09:27:45 PM
A world collective government?  ;D

Sorry to say , but keep dreaming Stout, that will never happen. Countries culture are too different each other. Can you imagine North Corea working toghether with the rest of the world?

For an artist that you are, you seem to be narrow-minded buddy. Do you really think North Corea will be a dictatorship forever? Your question is similar to asking a person in 1914 or 1938 whether he/she could ever imagine France and Germany ever to be part of a collective european organisation like the EU. I don't say it will happen within the next hundred years, it might take several hundred years but in the end countries/governments will move closely together and differences will be marginalized.

I agree it won't come easy and it might only be due to catastrophies, crisis and wars that it will eventually happen (e.g. WW II and Cuban Missile Crisis were important factors in multinational peace treaties) but it will happen sooner or later.

"Countries" are not really different to each other - it is perceptions, religions, languages, political ideologies of people in charge that make a difference. Just look at your country Spain - just compare it 50 years ago with what is Spain now - it is a sharp contrast. Or just look at the world. 500 years ago the most important question was which religion would prevail, 100 years ago the most disputed question was whether socialism or capitalism would prevail. Although those questions still do exist to some degree, they are being marginalized over time. And I think this process will continue over time (although it might be a rocky road), people will sooner or later realize that we all are not that different... I am not naive, I am just analyzing history  ;)

I can look through the history Stout. You are forgetting we are the human race. North Corea its just an example of how we are. There will always be people that wont agree with common rules.
Being an artist doesn't mean i have an utopic mind. I'm not saying i wouldn't like a perfect world but we all can see how the human race is.
We don't kill each other like in medieval wars but our society is in my opinion going worse and worse. More unconcscious and selfish than ever.

(https://i.redd.it/o699tlcene5x.jpg)
:D :D

Sometimes mere tears are never quite enough..   ;)

The unexpected consequences of a Club "Bilderberg" exit?


"The Real Brexit "Catastrophe": World's 400 Richest People Lose $127 Billion"

"For all the scaremongering and threats of an imminent financial apocalypse should Brexit win, including dire forecasts from the likes of George Soros, the Bank of England, David Cameron (who even invoked war), and even Jacob Rothschild, something "unexpected" happened yesterday: the UK was the best performing European market following the Brexit outcome."

"This outcome was just as we expected three days ago for reasons that we penned in "Is Soros Wrong", where we said "in a world in which central banks rush to devalue their currency at any means necessary just to gain a modest competitive advantage in global trade wars, a GBP collapse is precisely what the BOE should want, if it means kickstarting the UK economy."

Britain's 15 wealthiest citizens had $5.5 billion erased from their collective fortune Friday after the country voted to leave the European Union. Britain's richest person, Gerald Grosvenor, led the decline with a loss of $1 billion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. He was followed by Topshop owner Philip Green, fellow land baron Charles Cadogan and Bruno Schroder, majority shareholder of money manager Schroders Plc.

It wasn't just Britain: as Bloomberg added overnight, the world's 400 richest people lost $127.4 billion Friday as global equity markets reeled from the news that British voters elected to leave the European Union. The billionaires lost 3.2 percent of their total net worth, bringing the combined sum to $3.9 trillion, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index. The biggest decline belonged to Europe's richest person, Amancio Ortega, who lost more than $6 billion, while nine others dropped more than $1 billion, including Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos and Gerald Cavendish Grosvenor, the wealthiest person in the U.K.

Ironically, it turns out that when George Soros threatened "The Brexit crash will make all of you poorer – be warned", what he really meant is "it will make me poorer." And yes, George, the people were warned which is why they voted the way they did. "

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/real-brexit-catastrophe-worlds-400-richest-people-lose-127-billion

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 25, 2016, 12:20:58 PM

Quote from: h106frp on June 25, 2016, 11:53:24 AM
The EU leaders are having an emergency meeting to decide how best to punish the UK for exercising a democratic vote and to deter its own citizens for asking for any type of reform; looks like 'project fear' is regrettably going to be one of our last exports to the rest of europe then. Notte to them - the rules for exit are the ones you approved - grow up and deal with it.

As far as I know they are not going to discuss or alter the exit rules, that's just not possible. They just have to roughly settle the guidelines for the comm on the plan (what and when) and the conditions of the future deal with the UK.

Of course, you can't expect them to cut you a deal that is equal or better then the one you currently have: said otherwise, the deal will be worse.
I find this totally normal and not retaliation at all. Joining the EU comes with some burden and some advantages: you leave, you lose both.
As they say in France "On peut pas avoir le beurre et l'argent du beurre" :)

Probably the biggest lie (set aside the 350m GBP/week stuff) that the leave camp has told everybody: don't worry, when we leave we'll negotiate a deal, same as before hands down, maybe even better.  Of course, this won't happen. There will be a deal for sure, but the conditions will be worse, because:

• the EU is a club. Like any club, paying members must have some sort of advantage.
• that's what you get when a 60m population state negotiates with a 400m population "state".

There's no punishment, it's just business and common sense. And the fact that this would be the course had been announced multiple times before the ref day: multiple EU leaders made it clear, out is out. No more space for "let's negotiate something special for me because you know, I'm the UK".

Quote from: vin97 on June 25, 2016, 12:14:57 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 25, 2016, 10:34:01 AMchem-trails

ok, i'm out.

Stay, just skip "some" messages :)

Do not want any special treatment, never did and your welcome to it all. 

Quote from: Reactive on June 25, 2016, 01:04:32 AM
— final point of the Russia initiatives is to make the multipolar world, where all the countries are equal. No more superpowers.

You nailed it in one imo.

One seemingly seeks dominance through global hegemony and the imposition of a single dollar backed monetary system.  The other seeks cooperation between nations based upon international law and supports the freedom of independent currency issuance and independent systems of financial transaction. I  agree unipolar vs multipolar sums up the differences in ideological thinking quite well.

grT

Quote from: h106frp on June 25, 2016, 03:11:47 PM
Do not want any special treatment, never did and your welcome to it all.

i didn't mean "you" personally of course, it was about the UK. You mean the UK hasn't been asking (and getting) special treatment from the EU ?

One of the problems that has led to this situation is that the 'special measures' are not things that UK citizens have asked for but have come from the businesses and banking/service sector that influence government. Most of the opt outs have disadvantaged normal working people compared to their mainland counterparts and it really has not mattered which party and their election promises we have voted in.

I think the only one people agreed we did not want to be a part of was the euro and arguably that is probably justified - in its current form it is causing problems and needs a re-think in a europe where member states economies are so unbalanced.

Quote from: h106frp on June 25, 2016, 06:13:40 PM
One of the problems that has led to this situation is that the 'special measures' are not things that UK citizens have asked for but have come from the businesses and banking/service sector that influence government. Most of the opt outs have disadvantaged normal working people compared to their mainland counterparts and it really has not mattered which party and their election promises we have voted in.

I can agree with that, but you'll have to see this with your government :)

Highly respected and world renowned journalist John Pilger on Brexit and why the British said "No".

"The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media."

"This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the "remain" campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life. "

"A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain's ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale."

"In the week of the referendum vote, no British politician and, to my knowledge, no journalist referred to Vladimir Putin's speech in St. Petersburg commemorating the seventy-fifth anniversary of Nazi Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June, 1941.  The Soviet victory - at a cost of 27 million Soviet lives and the majority of all German forces - won the Second World War."

"Putin likened the current frenzied build up of Nato troops and war material on Russia's western borders to the Third Reich's Operation Barbarossa. Nato's exercises in Poland were the biggest since the Nazi invasion; Operation Anaconda had simulated an attack on Russia, presumably with nuclear weapons. On the eve of the referendum, the quisling secretary-general of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering "peace and security" if they voted to leave the EU.  The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe."

http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe

Quite interesting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/167D6/production/_90081129_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

George Soros: "Brexit Makes EU Disintegration Irreversible".

"Just four days ago, the "big guns" when George Soros wrote a Guardian op-ed titled  "The Brexit crash will make all of you poorer – be warned" in which he said that "as opinion polls on the referendum result fluctuate, I want to offer a clear set of facts, based on my six decades of experience in financial markets, to help voters understand the very real consequences of a vote to leave the EU." We promptly countered that Soros' set of "facts" may be clouded by his far greater equity stake in interests around Europe, and the globe, which would be drastically impacted by not only a Brexit, but by a European Union which is suddenly on the rocks.  That's precisely what happened when, as we wrote earlier, the world's 400 richest people lost $127.4 billion Friday following the Brexit vote.

Soros was among them.

However, seemingly unhappy that his generously altruistic warning was so roundly ignored by the peasants, not to mention his sudden concern about the future of the European Union whose collapse would also destroy the premise behind Soros' Open Society globalization initiative, the 85-year-old billionaire has decided to follow up with a case of sour grapes and go all in, making another forecast - since his first one was so clearly rejected - and in what may end up roiling markets even more, moments ago Soros said in his second op-ed of the week that the "catastrophic scenario that many feared has materialized, making the disintegration of the EU practically irreversible. Britain eventually may or may not be relatively better off than other countries by leaving the EU, but its economy and people stand to suffer significantly in the short to medium term. The pound plunged to its lowest level in more than three decades immediately after the vote, and financial markets worldwide are likely to remain in turmoil as the long, complicated process of political and economic divorce from the EU is negotiated. The consequences for the real economy will be comparable only to the financial crisis of 2007-2008."

But while Soros is lukewarm on the UK, his forecast about Europe is far more dire.."

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/george-soros-brexit-makes-eu-disintegration-irreversible

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 26, 2016, 08:45:31 AM
Quite interesting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/167D6/production/_90081129_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

Very interesting MaX. I would not have expected it to be that heterogeneous. So the same referendum in 1-2 years time would probably have had a different outcome... due to natural reasons...  :D

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 26, 2016, 11:51:59 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 26, 2016, 08:45:31 AM
Quite interesting:

(http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/167D6/production/_90081129_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)

Very interesting MaX. I would not have expected it to be that heterogeneous. So the same referendum in 1-2 years time would probably have had a different outcome... due to natural reasons...  :D

It's also very interesting that those that voted remain have never known anything different than life under the EU, so what does that tell you?  :)

But to be honest I'm disgusted with the way the MP's and journalists that are obviously pissed off with the result to leave are trying to spread SO much doom and gloom now as if to prove that what they were saying in the campaign is true!!  >:(
If I had my way I would dissolve the government and go for a general election right now to get rid of those MP's that are currently throwing their toys out of the pram in protest at the result of the referendum........  And I've also noticed that these people are all of a sudden saying that they represent the people who voted to remain - Haha!! I mean what's happened to democratic decisions all of a sudden, eh! Suddenly they want to act like there is proportional representation yet when that was proposed they all slapped it down! BLOODY HYPOCRITES!!! Let's go for a general election and get rid of these B*stards and get people into government who really want to work for a better UK outside the EU!  >:(

Personally I'd string those vindictive MP's up on London Bridge for spreading so much doom and gloom.... It's tantamount to TREASON!!  >:(

And were is that disgusting little Tory Chancellor(Osbourne) since the result was announced? He should have been kicked down the road by now just like Cameron - at least Cameron had the balls to dip out when he should've done.  ;D

But the Media is really showing the difference in attitudes between the financial lepers that dominated the London Remain vote and the rest of the country.... The media need to start interviewing people who live outside of London then we may start getting a balanced outlook on how the country as a whole is feeling!

But yeah... I really wonder why the media is not hounding for the Chancellors head too; it's not like the media to not go after an MP's head like this... something is very amiss there as hardly anything is being made of wanting the chancellor to resign too like they should be doing, WTF is going on there, eh?? Probably been told to leave him alone because the financial institutes have warned of financial collapse if the chancellor has to resign? Kick his arse down the road I say!! LOL!  ;D

Hawk.

Agree Hawk. Disgusting. Even London select asking for independance and to stay in EU.  Really shows what we all know that they dont give a shit about people outside of London.

Posting quotes from media spinners is a waste of time for everyone.

Ages? Don't remember my vote being linked with my age how did they know? So I guess it is a statistic borne from geolocation? More statistical spin and bollox.
If anything it shows older people understand what democracy means. What was sacrificed to even allow these people to have the freedom to vote. Seems by those results the youngsters admit they don't really give a shit about any of that.

These people asking for a rerun of the vote - disgusting! As they don't believe in democracy might as well take their vote count off them altogether.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 26, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Agree Hawk. Disgusting. Even London select asking for independance and to stay in EU.  Really shows what we all know that they dont give a shit about people outside of London.

Posting quotes from media spinners is a waste of time for everyone.

Ages? Don't remember my vote being linked with my age how did they know? So I guess it is a statistic borne from geolocation? More statistical spin and bollox.
If anything it shows older people understand what democracy means. What was sacrificed to even allow these people to have the freedom to vote. Seems by those results the youngsters admit they don't really give a shit about any of that.

These people asking for a rerun of the vote - disgusting! As they don't believe in democracy might as well take their vote count off them altogether.

Totally agree Nick..... and those asking for a re-run of the referendum now need to ask themselves if they want to live under a democratic system or a dictatorship! They should be ashamed of themselves for even contemplating such a thing after a referendum has been held!  ::)

Maybe just media bias, but seems every young person they interview voted to remain and are seemingly disgusted with the older generation for forcing them to leave the EU...... It's just typical of the younger generation these days to only think of themselves instead of what's best for the majority of the UK.... What sort of kids are we raising these days I ask myself?!  ::)

Hawk.
PS: Nearly forgot.... I do hope the Scots hold another indie-referendum(sounds like they may well do that) so they will finally split from us and then come crawling back on their hands and knees after 3 years after failing to survive on their own.... At least that will destroy that stupid nationalist Nicola Sturgeons political career, so we'll get rid of her too!...Go for it Scotland!. Lol  ;D

Quote from: Hawk on June 26, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
It's also very interesting that those that voted remain have never known anything different than life under the EU, so what does that tell you?  :)

It tells maybe that people with higher education and a more open mind voted stay (rightfully or not, that we don't know, yet).
I think the youngsters simply believe more in the EU ideals than the rest of the UK (who only sees the business and sovereignty aspects).

Quote from: Hawk on June 26, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
If I had my way I would dissolve the government and go for a general election right now

I can agree with that. I'm convinced the outcome would be a real catastrophe for the UK, far worse than the brexit stuff, but I don't see any solid argument to avoid an anticipated general election.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 26, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
Ages? Don't remember my vote being linked with my age how did they know? So I guess it is a statistic borne from geolocation? More statistical spin and bollox.

It's written in the bottom part of the image: "Lord Ashcroft Polls". I don't see any reason to doubt what the image says (except the usual CIA stuff).

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 26, 2016, 05:04:00 PM
These people asking for a rerun of the vote - disgusting! As they don't believe in democracy might as well take their vote count off them altogether.

Agreed. Re-running the referendum would be a totally embarrassing joke. Asking for a re-run is childish at best.

WHY even talk about it......................

Its done you never had a choice and its finished with!!!

Politics and bikers dont work well!!!

Now lets see how the "new" (cameron will retire in october?!) brit. goverment will handle their home-made, intern seperation.
what is with scottland and more important, northern ireland? didnt they voted in majority for a stay?
what would happen when scottland will, somehow, split themself from the united kingdom? what about the "peace" in ireland in such a setting?
many questions and only time will tell us the answers...

It tells maybe that people with higher education and a more open mind voted stay 

LOL!

Have you met any of our youth?

The remain petition has just had over a million fraudulent names removed, so much for on-line statistics.

Maybe you have a preference what will happen JJ?

Gotta agree H - some very strange comments coming from our European 'Remain' friends.

Quote from: h106frp on June 26, 2016, 06:25:49 PM
It tells maybe that people with higher education and a more open mind voted stay 

LOL!

Have you met any of our youth?

Yes. And my wife still teaches to them.

But the remark was simply based on the fact that all across the world, education levels have been raising.
Once again, it doesn't imply that the youngsters voted right (or wrong).

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 26, 2016, 06:36:24 PM
Gotta agree H - some very strange comments coming from our European 'Remain' friends.

Uh, I actually stated for the start that I was hoping for the UK to leave (albeit expecting the stay to win). So somehow, I was aligned to Hawk :)

But I don't see a big trouble about Scotland and Northern Ireland: Scotland will probably push for a vote as soon as possible.

And if Northern Ireland asks to rejoin Ireland, well this sounds like an happy ending to a painful story, no ?
How strong  a symbol it is when people with different (and pretty strong) religious orientations are both unanimous in voting for the stay ?

This is the message that has never reached England (despite the efforts): the EU is more than a common market and a trade treaty. And yes, it goes beyond laws abut the right curvature for premium quality bananas. If you (the UK) are fundamentally against a common government, a common military force, a common immigration policy, a common set of fiscal laws, then you should be out. Which is why I was hoping for the leave to win. Because while the UK was in, it was essentially working against all EU's projects, except the commercial ones.

But no grudge: EU membership is not imposed to anybody. UK decided to get out, I can respect that of course.

Quote from: doubledragoncc on June 26, 2016, 06:20:12 PM
WHY even talk about it......................

Its done you never had a choice and its finished with!!!

Politics and bikers dont work well!!!

I tend to agree with you DD. I remember my late father telling me that a famous "sim" racing forum (the precursor to race department? I'm not sure) had an a general "off-topic" section for all non "sim"racing related discussions. In the lead up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003 it got really active and quite heated in the "Iraq war debate" section. Like really heated. The site admin.s has to close the off topic part of the forum down as a consequence according to my Dad. So yes debates can and do get "charged" when these sort of serious issues are discussed. People have different perspectives depending upon where they live in the world and how closely they follow the mainstream media.

As regards the younger generation in the U.K., the students and so on, the people of my age-group, far from having open and inquiring minds from my honest experience they have a tendency to "lap-up" the MSM..what attention they pay to these matters. Then they're off to a music festival to get drunk and try to pitch their tent in the mud. In between taking "selfies" and looking out for some "love and adventure". A liberally minded pro Europe stance is very popular (similar to the popularity amongst the young of gay rights etc. )  without them making much personal inquiry, if any at all, into the background and facts of the matter in hand. So off they trot to facebook to voice their support in the absence in the majority of cases of having performed any meaningful research of their own. This general trait amongst my peers does genuinely worry me if I'm honest. Not all of them are like that but most are.. Where has the radical and incisive thinking of previous student generations disappeared to one has to ask? I wish I knew tbh. Politics doesn't seem to be very popular amongst the younger generation these days. It's deemed in many quarters of this age-group to be a less than exciting subject for discussion. It is deemed to have limited relevance to their lives and limited relevance to their professional or private futures. Which is altogether rather sad really. So from my experience I don't believe that across the board the "young" in the U.K. are actually that well informed at all these days on world events and politics.. That's my honest take having lived in the U.K. for 3 years now.

In case people might be interested here's a link to an article  by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard of the U.K. Daily Telegraph regarding the CIA's links to the EU.  The same journalist, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, was the Telegraph's Washington based correspondent in the year 2000 when these links were first discovered. This article is from April this year and brings the subject up to date in light of the EU referendum.

"The European Union always was a CIA project, as Brexiteers discover"
AMBROSE EVANS-PRITCHARD

Brexiteers should have been prepared for the shattering intervention of the US.  The European Union always was an American project.

It was Washington that drove European integration in the late 1940s, and funded it covertly under the Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations.

The key CIA front was the American Committee for a United Europe (ACUE), chaired by Donovan. Another document shows that it provided 53.5 per cent of the European movement's funds in 1958. The board included Walter Bedell Smith and Allen Dulles, CIA directors in the Fifties, and a caste of ex-OSS officials who moved in and out of the CIA.

..."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/27/the-european-union-always-was-a-cia-project-as-brexiteers-discov/

Take care all and have an enjoyable Sunday evening.

grT  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 26, 2016, 07:10:16 PM
This is the message that has never reached England (despite the efforts): the EU is more than a common market and a trade treaty. And yes, it goes beyond laws abut the right curvature for premium quality bananas. If you (the UK) are fundamentally against a common government, a common military force, a common immigration policy, a common set of fiscal laws, then you should be out. Which is why I was hoping for the leave to win. Because while the UK was in, it was essentially working against all EU's projects, except the commercial ones.

+1

No-one disagrees the EU 'ideal' is a really great idea but it isn't working. The trouble is how long do we wait until it starts working then? Another 50 years? 100? You are kidding yourselves, protecting your faceless governors with the hope the EU 'ideals' are being worked towards.

It has turned into a dictatorship. The people now in charge of the EU (can you name them/recognise their picture?) make laws behind closed doors and have to answer to no-one about them. If they do something you don't like - lets say by making competition in business illegal, stifling all small business, taking the livelihood of one country and give it to others but offer compensation instead (IE: take control of everything (a dictatorship masterplan)), then you can like it or lump it because you certainly cant have a democratic vote about it. Maybe the Law will be to honour the EU God with your firstborn? Don't like it? Unlucky!

So the beurocrats' (renamed Eurocrats cos no-one likes beurocrats) (or 'highly educated people' groomed to actual believe they are better than the working people and it their duty to 'direct them') make lots of 'Directives' and generate paperwork to stamp and accept advertising money from the big business to secure trade preferences and the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The ideals of the European Union are lost ages ago behind  (for example) the 23 EU Directives affecting your Toilet brush that have to be complied with to ensure only one business can make them).

Nah, get out and stand on your own two feet and hope (er) Dolphins, form the next World Alliance and aren't up their own a*rses and greed orientated they can focus on the whole point of the Union in the first place not how much free Viagra they can get. Then I will vote back in (not that anyone would have us cos the butt-hurt will last a decade at least).

EU Ideals pffff - come on that is for the youngsters, a dream long gone.

I wonder how many readers believe their government would hold a fair beurocratic referendum.??    Put your hand down Scotland I just watched the news...

I cannot wait for you to try and sell this idea to the new eastern european members- i have worked there (away from the tourist destinations) and i can tell you first hand they are far more insular than the UK ever was.

OK Nick, that confirms you wanted to be out. And now you are, so it's all good. Where's the problem ?

But if you are in the UK and you run a business that happens to make toilet brushes, then don't expect to come overseas and sell them in the EU.

I'm sure no EU citizen will tel you EU is perfect or even half-perfect, but I'm sure a fair majority wants to improve it, not to kill it: that makes all the difference between who's willing to stay and who's willing to leave.

But again, leaving the EU is not a crime, I don't blame the UK at all: if leaving is what people want, then be it.
At worst, it's a strong message to the people in charge of the EU right now that a change is needed. Another reason to thank you for the call.

Quote from: h106frp on June 26, 2016, 08:57:58 PM
I cannot wait for you to try and sell this idea to the new eastern european members- i have worked there (away from the tourist destinations) and i can tell you first hand they are far more insular than the UK ever was.

This can be true, but they are willing to make the necessary efforts to join because the do see the benefits: if the EU can improve a country standards by setting the bar to join to some height, then that's all good.

My wife is from eastern Europe (Romania), we have family there and we go there from time to time: it's still a bit of far west (errr, east), but it's improving quickly. Way more than North Korea :)

Oh yeh I wanted to add that all the BBC news did here was interview youngsters at the Glastonbury Festival over those days. They strangely never asked one of them if they actually voted or had set up a proxy vote while they were in the muddy fields smoking pot all week lol. The only people the Remain Camp can moan about is those who never voted.

Ultimately, we made our decision and I am glad some people can respect that. I don't understand why anyone in the UK would moan about having the freedom to a democratic vote, even if they lost. I can understand a lot of countries being quite jealous. Funnily enough that kind of freedom is what the EU was probably formed to protect, shame they are doing the opposite.

Max - I don't have a problem (not sure why you said that but never mind), only with our own people who don't understand how a referendum works and the point behind it and what it means to actually be able to have that vote, and with non UK people wishing us bad tidings because of it (not implying anything there).

QuoteBut if you are in the UK and you run a business that happens to make toilet brushes, then don't expect to come overseas and sell them in the EU.

Why not? Trade to us will still want to continue no? Or will all these countries now be happy to lose all those sales ( think Germany is 6 Billion just from the Cars?) Lose that and all the other countries will have to support their loss. Or is that a punishment from the EU for leaving? Remember the Eurozone is the only continent financially diminishing. I will take my bog brushes to the developing word then!

And remember I am the Devils 1st Advocate.

It seems to me if I am honest that the future system of governance of the EU Superstate is built upon the concept of a child-like trust of authority..

That's my honest take on this. My first rule of life is that I do not blindly trust my own sovereign government let alone the unaccountable system of governance of a federalised EU Superstate.

Do the citizens of the United States of America feel trust in their centralised federal government? Do the citizens of the U.S. Superstate feel that their federal government  is properly accountable to them? From what I have heard the answer is a a resounding no. Levels of confidence and trust in the U.S. Federal Government have never been lower and more imperiled.

So no personally the EU is not for me. In an ideal world in an ideal future in a distant universe maybe. But here and now no way Jose..! ;) Not in this world and not with the potential dangers that this world faces. We need to make those who govern us more accountable for their actions..not less. In my honest and personal opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

If Europe is happy to go forward with the concept of a Single Government, a single military force and a single set of fiscal laws then good for them.. I'm not buying. :)

I guess at the end of the day people just "tick" differently. We I suppose will just have to learn to respect and get along with the two different systems of governance and the two different systems of ideology. I guess there will have to be room for both? That's the way it's looking..

grT :)

P.S. good luck with TTIP..! Although having said that you never know with the obedient and compliant "puppets" we have in government in the U.K. we'll probably have the wretched thing here also.. lol.

Did you hear about the Brits who have all cancelled their holidays "because now the borders are shut they wont be able to go" ?

Maybe there should be some kind of pre-vote IQ test lol.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 26, 2016, 09:28:23 PM
Did you hear about the Brits who have all cancelled their holidays "because now the borders are shut they wont be able to go" ?

Maybe there should be some kind of pre-vote IQ test lol.

Funny enough, I work for a company in the travel IT business right now.
We have an internal system to report issues and one of my british colleagues opened an "incident" with the following text:

QuoteIt has become clear that 52% of the UK population are blithering idiots
and should not be allowed to travel.

Please add them to as many blacklists as you can find. And then invent
some more blacklists and add them to those too.

[Take it as a joke of course]


And believe it or not, when I went to scotland for a year, my colleagues gave me this:

(http://images2.corriereobjects.it/methode_image/2016/06/23/Tecnologia/Foto%20Gallery/regina.gif?v=201606241940)

I trashed it two months ago: guess I should have kept it :)

Gerald Celente -Trends in the News SPECIAL Brexit Episode

https://www.youtube.com/v/DhfPRMJoZmY

grT

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 26, 2016, 09:22:23 PM
It seems to me if I am honest that the future system of governance of the EU Superstate is built upon the concept of a child-like trust of authority..

That's my honest take on this. My first rule of life is that I do not blindly trust my own sovereign government let alone the unaccountable system of governance of a federalised EU Superstate.

Do the citizens of the United States of America feel trust in their centralised federal government? Do the citizens of the U.S. Superstate feel that their federal government  is properly accountable to them? From what I have heard the answer is a a resounding no. Levels of confidence and trust in the U.S. Federal Government have never been lower and more imperiled.

So no personally the EU is not for me. In an ideal world in an ideal future in a distant universe maybe. But here and now no way Jose..! ;) Not in this world and not with the potential dangers that this world faces. We need to make those who govern us more accountable for their actions..not less. In my honest and personal opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

If Europe is happy to go forward with the concept of a Single Government, a single military force and a single set of fiscal laws then good for them.. I'm not buying. :)

I guess at the end of the day people just "tick" differently. We I suppose will just have to learn to respect and get along with the two different systems of governance and the two different systems of ideology. I guess there will have to be room for both? That's the way it's looking..

Quote from: vin97 on June 24, 2016, 08:48:56 PMthe (political) problems of most western democracies are very similar, no matter if isolated or united. i think the chance of fixing them is higher when all people see themselves as part of the same thing, though.

Quote from: vin97 on June 26, 2016, 10:35:27 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 26, 2016, 09:22:23 PM
It seems to me if I am honest that the future system of governance of the EU Superstate is built upon the concept of a child-like trust of authority..

That's my honest take on this. My first rule of life is that I do not blindly trust my own sovereign government let alone the unaccountable system of governance of a federalised EU Superstate.

Do the citizens of the United States of America feel trust in their centralised federal government? Do the citizens of the U.S. Superstate feel that their federal government  is properly accountable to them? From what I have heard the answer is a a resounding no. Levels of confidence and trust in the U.S. Federal Government have never been lower and more imperiled.

So no personally the EU is not for me. In an ideal world in an ideal future in a distant universe maybe. But here and now no way Jose..! ;) Not in this world and not with the potential dangers that this world faces. We need to make those who govern us more accountable for their actions..not less. In my honest and personal opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

If Europe is happy to go forward with the concept of a Single Government, a single military force and a single set of fiscal laws then good for them.. I'm not buying. :)

I guess at the end of the day people just "tick" differently. We I suppose will just have to learn to respect and get along with the two different systems of governance and the two different systems of ideology. I guess there will have to be room for both? That's the way it's looking..

Quote from: vin97 on June 24, 2016, 08:48:56 PMthe (political) problems of most western democracies are very similar, no matter if isolated or united. i think the chance of fixing them is higher when all people see themselves as part of the same thing, though.

If you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

It's a nice thought I have to say.

Anyway, I wish you good luck with it all. Interesting times are ahead of us all. Particularly with the heightened tensions on Russia's borders..

Peace and love.

grT

Quote from: h106frp on June 26, 2016, 08:57:58 PM
I cannot wait for you to try and sell this idea to the new eastern european members- i have worked there (away from the tourist destinations) and i can tell you first hand they are far more insular than the UK ever was.

I live in one of those new eastern european members. Our lifes haven't changed all that much since we joined. Only the people who wanted to leave got their wish granted.
Overall small and medium business took an impact with more imported products on she shelfs, and only the big companies had success with exports. Of course there are always exceptions.

People had big expectations (specially regarding corruption and law making) when we joined and got disappointed overall, so no surprise about the lack of "european spirit".
This is turning out to be just another shit in a long history of shits being served to us under the label of a premium steak. 

As expected: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/27/brussels-rejects-boris-johnson-pipe-dream-over-single-market-access)

I think it's in the UK interest to find somebody with some brain and put him/her in charge immediately: a lot of damage is already done, but there's some serious potential for much more.
The more I read the UK news, the more I fear for you guys. It doesn't look good. At all ...

This is fresh:
#Merkel warns UK against cherry-picking 'you cannot expect that duties go away but privileges remain'
#Merkel tells MPs 'Free access to the single market to whichever country accepts the 4 freedoms of people, goods, services and capital'

Lol the interesting part of this discussion is complete for me now. Posting 'press' links indeed.  Why even waste your time reading that?   Max the troll? ;)

Edit: adding that my comment is not supposed to come off rude  :-[ that is not what I am about. Please don't give me an 'ugh' lol.
Just that our press is just the usual biased sensational rubbish that really is not worth reading. The next interesting time will be in about 2 years.  I suppose it is kind of interesting to other people outside the UK (who are drowning in 24/7 press opinions) but keep an open mind and remember democracy rules over everything.

Here is a last thought - Germany alone exports direct to us 700billion of trade and imports a couple of billion. Who needs who?

Rhetorical  question, Merkel is already saying she respects our decision. Hmmm I wonder why!

More interesting is the slipped out release about France and Germany taking over the economies of the whole of Europe - guess we now know how they are going to fund themselves going forward.

@Nick: I still have to see anybody questioning the legitimacy of the result, don't know why you ask to remember that democracy rules over everything.

Merkel respects your decision (as essentially everybody does): that's why she's saying that 1 the UK is out of the EU and there's no "out but still a bit in" discussion. And 2, the sooner the UK formalizes the fact, the better.

I don't know which press you read, but what I posted above are mostly declarations (so no specific comment or side taken by the journo).
So skip the comments, just read what the big guns said. It's on record, unaltered.

Quote from: h106frp on June 28, 2016, 11:35:42 AM
More interesting is the slipped out release about France and Germany taking over the economies of the whole of Europe - guess we now know how they are going to fund themselves going forward.

No wait, wasn't the EU a CIA thingy ?

Dont know about that but apparently Poland is a bit miffed by the idea

@Max: Unless you see it on video or live on the news then you can disregard the print in any newspapers as it's well known that journalists of any media these days will twist and take out of context anything they print in an attempt to sensationalise their piece... Just look and listen to the doom-mongers dominating the press and media and very little being covered about the positives and the fact that the markets will settle down and everything will in reality be okay.

There has been many of those that are disappointed with the result calling for a possible second referendum because they believe that a lot of voters now regret voting leave.... I mean how pathetic can people get that they think they are so right that they cannot believe the result from one of the highest voter turn-outs in history.... As I said before, the sooner we dissolve the current parliament and go for a early general election so we get MP's into parliament who actually represent the people the better.... SACK the LOT of EM!  :P

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 01:06:43 PM
@Max: Unless you see it on video or live on the news then you can disregard the print in any newspapers as it's well known that journalists of any media these days will twist and take out of context anything they print in an attempt to sensationalise their piece... Just look and listen to the doom-mongers dominating the press and media and very little being covered about the positives and the fact that the markets will settle down and everything will in reality be okay.

The declarations above are on video, reported by dozens of journos all around Europe and written (in multiple EU languages) in the official proceedings of the session.

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 01:06:43 PM
There has been many of those that are disappointed with the result calling for a possible second referendum because they believe that a lot of voters now regret voting leave.... I mean how pathetic can people get that they think they are so right that they cannot believe the result from one of the highest voter turn-outs in history.... As I said before, the sooner we dissolve the current parliament and go for a early general election so we get MP's into parliament who actually represent the people the better.... SACK the LOT of EM!  :P

That was my advice too:

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 26, 2016, 05:47:04 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 26, 2016, 01:49:13 PM
If I had my way I would dissolve the government and go for a general election right now

I can agree with that. I'm convinced the outcome would be a real catastrophe for the UK, far worse than the brexit stuff, but I don't see any solid argument to avoid an anticipated general election.

BTW, our pal Nigel F. just told all the EU MEPs (face to face) that they have never worked a single day of their life nor created a single job (yes, you can find that on video): how does that sound as a start for a negotiation of a commercial deal ? I'd go for "suicidal", but if it's OK for you ...

On a lighter note: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/romanians-for-remainians-an-adoption-offer-for-bewildered-brits (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/28/romanians-for-remainians-an-adoption-offer-for-bewildered-brits)

When you think it out in fact, it's not a dumb solution: France for example could take in the some of the UK citizens that want to stay in the EU and send you in exchange a bunch of extreme-righters, anti-EUs, nationalists, royalist etc. I think it's doable: Scotland and N.Ireland could split, so how many are left in the UK ? Let's round to 50M and say half are for the leave and hence will stay in the UK. That makes 25M going out (to France, Germany, Spain etc) and 25M to go in: I have little doubt that across the EU we can find 25M that share the vision put forward by the leave camp. So it sounds doable :)

It would be nice to hear from someone here with a firm Remain belief to spice the thread up. I would like to think most of us are mature enough not to let it get to a shit flinging contest! (possibly the only forum EVER to achieve that?)

I struggle to see how it was so close at 48:52 when I can count the people in my social circle who voted Remain on one hand, only 3million signed the "can we have best of 3 " petition (with a lot of hacker/filler help too), and the finest forum in the World hasn't got a single one?  :o

Hehe yes Guimengo you are correct  :) If that product happens to be cars I guess we can all go back to Japan now and get some of them. Not like there aren't any non-EU choices. I would say America but not until Trump gets in lol.  I have my eyes set on a nice Chevrolet next (er made in Korea).

I must admit Max when I heard Nigel rubbing it in to the EU like he did my head was in my hands.... Like you say, it's not a good grounding for negotiation talks. But I did enjoy it.... in fact loved it when Nigel told them some home truths about hardly any of them having had a real job in their lives! Hehe!  ;D
We can't really blame Nigel for telling them "I told you so" after the way they ridiculed him for saying the UK would leave the EU 17 years ago.  ;)

But if the UK had anything about them they'd also be pushing just as hard if not more so to get more trade deals from the other countries in the world besides the EU.... The EU isn't the only country we can deal with. In fact I would put more emphasis on bigger and better trade deals with all the other countries in the world besides the EU because despite us getting out of the EU, the EU is still a bunch of pratts when it comes to negotiations; they will always want anyone who trades with them to allow free movement of EU workforce in return..... BOLLOCKS to them I say!! If all other countries said them the same them they'd soon change their attitude..... I mean they talk about other countries wanting special concessions, well seems to me the EU wants a MASSIVE special concession just to even begin trading with them! Hypocrites!!  :P

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 03:01:43 PMIn fact I would put more emphasis on bigger and better trade deals with all the other countries in the world besides the EU

i'm sure the us will come up with a wonderful version of ttip for you then.

not too worried about this shit coming to the eu, if the recent past (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Counterfeiting_Trade_Agreement) is any guide.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 26, 2016, 10:55:09 PMIf you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

how exactly does isolation solve those problems, though? do you think unity caused them?

Why don't we give this subject a fucking rest, it's boring now.

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 03:01:43 PM
I must admit Max when I heard Nigel rubbing it in to the EU like he did my head was in my hands.... Like you say, it's not a good grounding for negotiation talks. But I did enjoy it.... in fact loved it when Nigel told them some home truths about hardly any of them having had a real job in their lives! Hehe!  ;D
We can't really blame Nigel for telling them "I told you so" after the way they ridiculed him for saying the UK would leave the EU 17 years ago.  ;)

Hope you enjoyed it all the way, because it may have been the most expensive 10min rubbing in the entire history of trade.
Germans are usually pragmatic, but past a given point they become quite ruthless.

I'd be very curious to see NF (or his pal BJ) getting the power now and show the world how he can make all his other predictions happen ...  I'd expect a lot of backpedalling, which in fact already started.

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 28, 2016, 05:31:23 PM
Why don't we give this subject a fucking rest, it's boring now.

Don't feel obliged to read it, especially if it bores or annoys you. I find it interesting overall.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2016, 07:00:30 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 03:01:43 PM
I must admit Max when I heard Nigel rubbing it in to the EU like he did my head was in my hands.... Like you say, it's not a good grounding for negotiation talks. But I did enjoy it.... in fact loved it when Nigel told them some home truths about hardly any of them having had a real job in their lives! Hehe!  ;D
We can't really blame Nigel for telling them "I told you so" after the way they ridiculed him for saying the UK would leave the EU 17 years ago.  ;)

Hope you enjoyed it all the way, because it may have been the most expensive 10min rubbing in the entire history of trade.
Germans are usually pragmatic, but past a given point they become quite ruthless.

I'd be very curious to see NF (or his pal BJ) getting the power now and show the world how he can make all his other predictions happen ...  I'd expect a lot of backpedalling, which in fact already started.

Well I think they should realise that NF wasn't part of the official leave campaign and is still a bit of a maverick aside from the government of the UK, so let's see if the EU commission is as forward thinking as they like to believe shall we. If they are then they won't hold NF's comments/attitude against the UK government when it comes to start negotiations.  ;)

But still greatly disappointed with all the doom and gloom mongering going off in the media, it's totally disgusting considering that we need to be now more than ever a positive and get going nation to prove the EU wrong, and the media will play a big part in giving the nation that good feeling by telling the truth in a positive way rather than solely concentrating on the negative side of this issue all of the time. Seems to me the doom-mongers(remain campaign voters) want us to fail badly in the vain hope of another referendum... It isn't going to happen!  ::)

Hawk.

I do feel obliged to read it, I did vote to leave and the only part that's interesting is seeing what cowards look like on the political front who voted remain, but not to worry we're clear the way for them assholes. Who knows they might even grow a pair in the process....o yes Maximillion, good times are ahead there's no stopping it. We're pushing forward that's it.

(https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13528805_776668572435549_5567533316629560354_n.jpg?oh=70f3233630feed66690917eb0b9c332b&oe=580AD770)
:D :D

Quote from: vin97 on June 28, 2016, 08:26:05 PM
(https://scontent.ftxl1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13528805_776668572435549_5567533316629560354_n.jpg?oh=70f3233630feed66690917eb0b9c332b&oe=580AD770)
:D :D

Don't worry about it vin, that's called a picture👏👏👏

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 08:00:13 PM

But still greatly disappointed with all the doom and gloom mongering going off in the media, it's totally disgusting ........

Hawk.

Couldn't agree more Hawk, the press are feeding the problem terribly - always blaming everything on a racist vote, or financial doom and gloom. I was thinking this myself today. I mean come on, we know the press feed like vultures on sensationalism, but its time they stopped being part of the problem and started being part of the solution. What little respect I had for them is waning away each day and what do we see as a result - no brains joe and his wife regurgitating the problems the press have put into their heads when interviewed.

Another example - "But Boris said all the money would go on the NHS"  I mean wake up people - who thought in the last two weeks before the vote that all the 350m paid each week into the EU would go on the NHS instead?  Mr and Mrs Shared Brain Cell - that's who. "But it was written on a bus".  ::)  Fair play to Boris for getting some votes from the people who no doubt needed help writing X in the box.

UK press is indeed disgusting. Maybe we can vote to have EU press instead which I am sure are far more objective (pfff) >:(

So it continues..our minds distracted from the lack of PiB daily updates specifically focussed on GPB lol! Max might be PiBs right hand customer services man!

hehe good pic Vin. The man has 'special skills' shall we say.

Quote from: Hawk on June 28, 2016, 08:00:13 PM

But still greatly disappointed with all the doom and gloom mongering going off in the media, it's totally disgusting ........

Hawk.

But doom and gloom has been the basis of the leave campaign, no ? I mean, Independence Day, Polish invasion, banana's curvature, 109 EU laws about pillows etc.

If the stay had won, what would you think would be the message right now from the stay camp ? Let me answer: doom and gloom.

But at any rate, me too I disregard the ones talking about forecast and predictions, mostly because  they may be wrong. Or biased. Or both.
I just look at the events unfolding right now (events, not predictions): it doesn't look good man.

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 28, 2016, 08:05:20 PM
I do feel obliged to read it, ....

Well sorry then, but it's your problem: I surely won't stop discussing because it bothers you.

It looks fine and nothing unexpected to me. In fact much less for this early period. Judging by what I hear, few Exit voters thought there wouldn't be a lot of turmoil at first IE: most were ready and prepared to sustain high casualties - Whether that was political, financial, or panic on the streets (of Glastonbury).

In fact the financial stuff the press have tried so hard to use, quoting 'billions lost on stock markets', affects average joes by nothing and works out at 3pence against the dollar. Wowee that happened the last time the Queen farted.

The events unfolding now might seem bad but as collateral goes, so far at least, much better than expected. But then the events are also only what we are fed in news and we already discussed that. Honestly, I feel the press are disappointed there isn't riots up and down the country and that the sky hasn't fallen down. Sometimes I think the EU members might think the same.

What does make an interesting read (cos we is humans and we like conspirational amusement) is all the right wing news from other EU countries that is starting to circulate. General consensus - The EU will crumble within 5 years. Ay carumba the cat is out of the bag lets hope the right doesn't move to the middle lol.

You can go on as  much as you like till your blue in the face. I got the decision I wanted so please feel free to entertain me Max.

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 28, 2016, 09:22:23 PM
You can go on as  much as you like till your blue in the face. I got the decision I wanted so please feel free to entertain me Max.

Doh, I though you asked something else not long ago:

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 28, 2016, 05:31:23 PM
Why don't we give this subject a fucking rest, it's boring now.

And there's a big misunderstanding here: I do think the leave is bad for UK (personal opinion, I do get many can disagree), but I stated clearly before that I was truly hoping for a leave.
So I'm still far from being blue in the the face at the moment, on the contrary, I'm pretty happy for me. But not so for the ones in the "UK" that were more hoping for a stay. But then, not much can be done about that right now: majority wins, rightly so.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
What does make an interesting read (cos we is humans and we like conspirational amusement) is all the right wing news from other EU countries that is starting to circulate. General consensus - The EU will crumble within 5 years. Ay carumba the cat is out of the bag lets hope the right doesn't move to the middle lol.

(Extreme) Right-wing here in France has been predicting the implosion of the EU during the last 20 years, so yeah ... nothing to be scared about.
But if you have evidence of that "general consensus", I'd like to read that.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
In fact the financial stuff the press have tried so hard to use, quoting 'billions lost on stock markets', affects average joes by nothing

That, unfortunately, is false.

i think the doom and gloom is right above your head max along with that sinking ship your standing on. Come...take my hand.

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 28, 2016, 10:33:44 PM
i think the doom and gloom is right above your head max along with that sinking ship your standing on. Come...take my hand.

Who knows, you may be right. Or not.

At any rate, if I ever get bored of you discussing this here, I won't ask you to shut up: I'd simply stop reading.

Know Max, somebody told you to shut up...who,tell me, I'm not standing for that. We're meant to be watching these events unfold through your eyes.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2016, 09:48:09 PM
And there's a big misunderstanding here: I do think the leave is bad for UK....

Lets be clear - the leave IS bad for the UK no-one should think otherwise. But hopefully that is the short term affect not the long. Time will tell.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2016, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
What does make an interesting read (cos we is humans and we like conspirational amusement) is all the right wing news from other EU countries that is starting to circulate. General consensus - The EU will crumble within 5 years. Ay carumba the cat is out of the bag lets hope the right doesn't move to the middle lol.

(Extreme) Right-wing here in France has been predicting the implosion of the EU during the last 20 years, so yeah ... nothing to be scared about.
But if you have evidence of that "general consensus", I'd like to read that.

I have a problem with that in that it would need me to post press links and that's the road to hell yet again. But use the keyphrase 'EU crumble within 5 years" and you should find some amusement.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2016, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
In fact the financial stuff the press have tried so hard to use, quoting 'billions lost on stock markets', affects average joes by nothing

That, unfortunately, is false.

Is it now, I didn't notice anything but you make a convincing case so maybe , but no worries it will probably rocket up later on higher than ever and offset whatever it is affecting.

Who knows? That's half the charm of it. Into the unknown, leading by example, sink or swim, and fate is back in our hands.

G'night all. ;)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 11:38:04 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2016, 09:48:09 PM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 28, 2016, 09:14:23 PM
What does make an interesting read (cos we is humans and we like conspirational amusement) is all the right wing news from other EU countries that is starting to circulate. General consensus - The EU will crumble within 5 years. Ay carumba the cat is out of the bag lets hope the right doesn't move to the middle lol.

(Extreme) Right-wing here in France has been predicting the implosion of the EU during the last 20 years, so yeah ... nothing to be scared about.
But if you have evidence of that "general consensus", I'd like to read that.

I have a problem with that in that it would need me to post press links and that's the road to hell yet again. But use the keyphrase 'EU crumble within 5 years" and you should find some amusement.

Done that just now. Came up with a metric ton of deep fried air like "Sweden, Germany, Italy and France all under pressure to hold referendums".
Which pressure ? Nobody knows at the moment. Talk about "doom and gloom mongering" ...

Sounds more like the UK has left and finding somebody else willing to follow suite would be some sort of relief for somebody who after a lot of blabbing is now facing a problem much bigger than expected.

At the moment, the support is coming from the likes of Marine LePen: trust me, you're far better off if you stay away from her and the likes.
I'm fairly sure that if you dig a bit into who she is what she thinks, most of you wouldn't touch her with a barge pole.

And the cherry on top for today, from the very man that made all this a reality: "Cameron tells EU leaders they must offer UK more control over immigration". Must ? Really ?  :o Now that's an interesting choice of words. I'll make a mental note to ask him if there's something else the EU must do. It is true he played his cards out like a real strategy wizard so we should all listen to his invaluable advice.

And he goes on: "Setting out the basis for a future British deal with the EU, he said that Britain will only be able to maintain access to the single market if the bloc agrees to look again at its policy of open borders.". Uh, I think there's a little misunderstanding here ...

Told ya. Press Doom and Gloom. People take that info and make it their religions, that's what scares me.

I watched the film Idiocracy the other day (yes right to the end!) and that was set 500 years in the future. I reckon they might be out by about 495 years.

1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

Dolphins must evolve quicker, hopefully before God throws that asteroid at us. Hey there is a discussion worth having - how come all these meteors and asteroids have nearly touched down recently yet absolutely NONE of them were forecast? I think that Russian one was a case of the gov't making a decision not to tell anyone to avoid panic, cross their fingers and hope it burnt up. Don't hold your breath if you think they would let us know about the big one.

This discussion is very interesting, if only for the psychological implications ;) I wonder why some of the guys I always perceived to be rather relaxed seem to have a tendency to get so grumpy here. If I was in the shoes of a Brexit-supporter at the moment (who truly is believing in the validity of the decision), I'd probably be totally relaxed and tell the press and everyone else to go and f..k themselves - future will prove you wrong.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 29, 2016, 07:40:53 AM
1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

I am pretty much there with you Nick - EU should definitely be optimized. But only because one realizes the gasoline engine is not perfectly optimized does not mean going back to a wood carburator engine is the best solution (sorry couldn't come up with a better figurative comparison ;)). But maybe on the bright side, the Brexit did show the people in Brussels that there in fact is stuff that creates frustration and some changes are about to happen? I hope so.

I realize that you are in favor of Brexit for specific reasons. I won't argue that, it is a valid position (but please realize other positions might also be valid if certain values are prioritized differently). But what I do find hard to understand is that you guys also seem to be contra further de-centralization...

Quote from: Hawk on June 26, 2016, 05:31:58 PM
I do hope the Scots hold another indie-referendum(sounds like they may well do that) so they will finally split from us and then come crawling back on their hands and knees after 3 years after failing to survive on their own....

Did it ever occur to you that the reasoning for autonomy efforts of certain regions (not only Scots) are generally very similar to those of the Brexit?

Again, I don't want to fuel the fire  ;) I just would like to make a case for open-minded-ness. If someone is talking crap, then disagree. But sometimes people just do have different opinions because they value certain aspects differently. I am pretty sure I could talk to an intelligent person in favor of Brexit for one hour and be shown valid aspects that I did not see before, but I also do think the same of a conversation with an intelligent con-Brexiteer... a singular claim for truth is almost always an illusion.

@Stout: I was just being flippant.  Lol  ;D
How can you respect anyone who blatantly ignores the democratic process they say they hold so dear... What a joke they are!  ::)

But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol  ;D :P

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol  ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 29, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
This discussion is very interesting, if only for the psychological implications ;) I wonder why some of the guys I always perceived to be rather relaxed seem to have a tendency to get so grumpy here. If I was in the shoes of a Brexit-supporter at the moment (who truly is believing in the validity of the decision), I'd probably be totally relaxed and tell the press and everyone else to go and f..k themselves - future will prove you wrong.

Me? Grumpy! Never!  just passionate in what I believe in. I already invited anyone in from the Remain Camp but not a soul turned up. I consider myself a good diplomat and able to listen to and evaluate both points of view without sticking my fingers in my ears at bits I don't like. In fact I did that all the way up to the referendum vote day (Evaluate stuff not the fingers in ears stuff). Between me , you and the bedsheets, I was an Innie for much of the campaign period strongly defending how far we had come in the (er) petrol engine design and if we kept pushing ahead it would all turn out nice and the ideals we signed up for 40 years ago would be achieved. Then I woke up and realised if 40 years wasn't enough to get nowhere near the ideals we joined for, then it was time for a change in direction. Just my choice and seems a few others agree.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 29, 2016, 01:27:54 PM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 29, 2016, 07:40:53 AM
1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

I am pretty much there with you Nick - EU should definitely be optimized. But only because one realizes the gasoline engine is not perfectly optimized does not mean going back to a wood carburator engine is the best solution (sorry couldn't come up with a better figurative comparison ;)). But maybe on the bright side, the Brexit did show the people in Brussels that there in fact is stuff that creates frustration and some changes are about to happen? I hope so.

Unfortunately I don't think it is heading in the right direction to ever be fixed. Better to start looking at non-fossil fuelled designs. (Ha fossils lol now I see where you are going)

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 29, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
I realize that you are in favor of Brexit for specific reasons. I won't argue that, it is a valid position (but please realize other positions might also be valid if certain values are prioritized differently). But what I do find hard to understand is that you guys also seem to be contra further de-centralization...

I do I do! It has been a long hard slog to get to this decision and isn't a whim. Like I said I was in the other position then as I learnt more I prioritized my decision.  Not sure what you mean on the last bit - you think we want the EU to fall apart now? Not at all I would love them to now think OK we need to change and get back on track to the ideals we were formed from. Do that and I might even come crawling back cap in hand. And I would hope to be let back in with a "yeh you made us see the light, sorry". OK I know - no-one is ever gonna say sorry.

Quote from: Hawk on June 29, 2016, 02:45:55 PM
But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol  ;D :P

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol  ;D

This is exactly the kind of bossiness that makes the Scots wanna leave you.

Under normal conditions a 2nd independence referendum would not be an option. But the current situation in the UK is not really what one could call normal condition.
So yes, as a consequence of the recent events and changes, I think a 2nd Scottish referendum is legitimate.

@Nick: your comments read much better without the grumpiness  :D in fact, I can now comprehend your situation better. And maybe one day it will all happen like you outlined... including the crawling back and the resumé that Brexit might have changed sth within the EU  ;)

@Hawk: I know what you mean. But I wanted to lead somewhere else - don't if you did not see it or did not want to see it  ;D  you could pretty much exchange 1) EU=UK and 2) UK=Scots and you'd have two similar situations. In one situation you are pro-exit in the other you are not although (at a rough level) the situations are similar - seems rather inconsistent ;) 

PS: off to watch now something very british, yet universally funny - Fawlty Towers  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 29, 2016, 05:21:23 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 29, 2016, 02:45:55 PM
But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol  ;D :P

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol  ;D

This is exactly the kind of bossiness that makes the Scots wanna leave you.

Under normal conditions a 2nd independence referendum would not be an option. But the current situation in the UK is not really what one could call normal condition.
So yes, as a consequence of the recent events and changes, I think a 2nd Scottish referendum is legitimate.

Bossiness Max? What you talking about?   :o
The Scottish MP's are acting like they are already an independent country, they are not, so don't you think the referendum result applies to Scotland too? Of course it does so they should abide by it and accept it honourably; that's what democracy is about Max... Though maybe the Scottish MP's are SO arrogant that they feel it doesn't or shouldn't apply?  They sure are acting like it. :P

And what isn't normal?
We had a referendum to remain or leave the EU, the majority like always won the vote and everyone else should accept it with grace and honour it with dignity don't you think? And that includes the Scots.  :P
Calling it abnormal is a total front to the democratic system.... I suppose you'd also support London going for an independence vote too because the majority in the London area voted to remain? Though I have heard rumours that someone was actually looking into that so the financial sector in London would benefit. Haha!
It's Just SO ridiculous Max how the remain supporters are treating the final result. The immaturity of those people in power just makes for super entertainment! I've not laughed SO much at supposedly responsible people in a long time! ;D

Anyway the Scots won't get an independence referendum vote anytime soon, that's for sure, and why should they when they've proven beyond a doubt that they cannot be trusted to uphold a democratic decision.  :)
If I had my way I'd dissolve the Scottish Parliament and put them back under total English rule. LOL!!  ;D

And then they say if there were Extra Terrestrials keeping watch on us then why don't they make themselves known.... Would you, seeing the way we conduct ourselves?! Hehe!  ;D

Hawk.

Yeah, right Hawk.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 29, 2016, 08:33:21 PM
Yeah, right Hawk.

;D

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 29, 2016, 06:28:40 PM
@Hawk: I know what you mean. But I wanted to lead somewhere else - don't if you did not see it or did not want to see it  ;D  you could pretty much exchange 1) EU=UK and 2) UK=Scots and you'd have two similar situations. In one situation you are pro-exit in the other you are not although (at a rough level) the situations are similar - seems rather inconsistent ;) 

PS: off to watch now something very british, yet universally funny - Fawlty Towers  ;)

Great programme "Faulty Towers"! One of the all time great comedies... Timeless!  ;D
Shame we don't get those sort of programmes made anymore.

Are you playing Devils Advocate here Stout?  ;D
As you know, the UK is Scotland, England, Wales and N.Ireland...... Legally it is the UK that was a member of the EU. So rightly so, the referendum was held for the UK as a whole. The fact that the majority of Scots voted to remain and therefore should be able to remain in the EU is total nonsense.... If they want to be part of the EU then they should act sensibly to get their independence and then apply independently to join the EU themselves.
Besides all Scots didn't vote to remain, so if we take the Scottish attitude, then what about the Scots who voted to leave? Don't they deserve just as much representation as those that voted to remain? You see how silly this all is when people try to twist things for their own gains?  :)
I mean were would it all stop? Would London declare independence and re-join the EU? And what about all the other UK counties that voted to remain too? I hope you can see how crazy the Scottish argument is?
The vote was a democratic vote and should be honoured with some dignity, and that is far from happening right now. ;)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 29, 2016, 09:09:20 PM
Great programme "Faulty Towers"! One of the all time great comedies... Timeless!  ;D
Shame we don't get those sort of programmes made anymore.

That's what I thought when I watched the programme. It is such a nice and discreet humor, it works without anything special, just very good and only slighty accentuated portrait of human character. It needs an intelligent viewer though - which might be the reason we don't get to see this kind of programme anymore these days... 

Quote from: Hawk on June 29, 2016, 09:09:20 PM
Are you playing Devils Advocate here Stout?  ;D
As you know, the UK is Scotland, England, Wales and N.Ireland...... Legally it is the UK that was a member of the EU. So rightly so, the referendum was held for the UK as a whole.
[...]
I mean were would it all stop? Would London declare independence and re-join the EU? And what about all the other UK counties that voted to remain too? I hope you can see how crazy the Scottish argument is?
The vote was a democratic vote and should be honoured with some dignity, and that is far from happening right now. ;)

I am aware of all that stuff, Hawk. But I realize I was not precise enough. I am trying to create a hypothetic situtation, please don't think within the actual political and legal circumstances. Just abstract a simplistic and hypothetical situation where the Scots are eligible to vote for either remain or exit the UK. Still I'd think you would rather tell them to bugger off and realize they are part of the UK, eventually it will also be for the benefit of themselves etc... although many reasons for them to leave would argumentally be similar to the Brexit arguments (imposed will by the central government, not really represented in government, legislature etc, certain regional and cultural aspects not represented etc etc.)

Again, I am aware I am being very simplistic in creating such a hypothtical situation ans also in my resumé of supposed argumentation being brought forward. It should just try to prove the point that the position one is taking very much depends on the perspective... ;)

@Stout: Well yes I understand what your saying, but people can look at the situation from any perspective if they want to justify their own opinions, but at the same time we have to stick to reality, and the reality is that the UK is coming out of the EU.

But I think we all know the reality to exactly why Nicola Sturgeon is creating so much fuss about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU and visiting the EU commission and doing all her supposed talks to try and find a way for Scotland to stay in the EU despite the referendum result...... She knows full well she won't get a deal with the EU for Scotland to stay; she's just playing classic politics to gain Scottish support for if/when Scotland get another chance for an indie referendum. She wants to make sure that this time she has almost universal Scottish support for going indie because she also knows that if she somehow convinces the UK parliament to give them another indie ref and she again loses like she did last time then that will likely be the end of her political career. She's not daft..... She's portraying one thing while in reality trying to consolidate support from the Scottish people for what she really wants(independence for Scotland). She knows that if she can get all those that voted to remain in the EU to support her Scottish indie aspirations then she'll likely get the result she really wants, and what better way to do that than to deceive the Scottish people into thinking that she supports and is working hard to keep Scotland in the EU when she knows full well that due to the BREXIT result all the UK will be coming out of the EU.... She knows full well already!
Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU.  :)

Hawk.

Another day of fun: so the UK was initially very keen to take its time before starting the article 50 procedure (Cameron declaring "it's UK sovereign decision to decide when and how").

EU leaders not very happy about that (uncertainty is bad), so they turn the pressure on and Cameron anticipates the designation of his successor to 9th Sept 2016, saying it will be up to him/her to do the job.

Now the EU clarifies a bit further: the UK has up to 16 Sept 2016 to start the art 50 process. If at that time it's not yet done, the EU could start a process to suspend UK rights, including vote (in simpler words, kick the UK out). Lawyers have established that if the UK bides his time despite the EU request to proceed, that's a violation of one of the articles of the Lisbon treaty (article 4, the bit about "sincere cooperation"): that violation seems to qualify as a "violation of fundamental principles", which in turn allows the other EU states to vote (majority) the suspension of rights for the offending state.

At this point you may ask: so where's the funny part ? Here it is: let's for a second imagine all this happens (UK not using art. 50, UK rights suspended) and the UK is not happy about that. What would be the only way for the UK to defend itself (except a military action I mean) ? The European Court of Justice, i.e. one of the EU institutions most despised and laughed at by brexiters.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 07:32:20 AM
Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU.  :)

So let me recap: Sturgeon brainwash people while Farage/Johnson expose facts. Alyn Smith's speech in the EU parliament is laughable while and Farage's speech in the EU parliament is enjoyable.
It seems to me your point of view is so far from the ones of Scottish people that you should have no problem at all in letting them go. What's the problem then ? Why you don't like the idea of Scotland breaking apart for the UK ?

The EU has already made very clear that the EU deals with states: SCO at the moment is not a state. End of the discussion. Anybody knows this. And the way out of that.

Crikey are you guys still going with this? Here's an alternative viewpoint..

The Collapse of Western Democracy

Democracy no longer exists in the West. In the US powerful private interest groups, such as the military-security complex, Wall Street, the Israel Lobby, agribusiness and the extractive industries of energy, timber and mining, have long exercised more control over government than the people. But now even the semblance of democracy has been abandoned.

In the US Donald Trump has won the Republican presidential nomination. However, Republican convention delegates are plotting to deny Trump the nomination that the people have voted him. The Republican political establishment is showing an unwillingness to accept democratic outcomes. The people chose, but their choice is unacceptable to the establishment which intends to substitute its choice for the people's choice.

Do you remember Dominic Strauss-Kahn? Strauss-Kahn is the Frenchman who was head of the IMF and, according to polls, the likely next president of France. He said something that sounded too favorable toward the Greek people. This concerned powerful banking interests who worried that he might get in the way of their plunder of Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy. A hotel maid appeared who accused him of rape. He was arrested and held without bail. After the police and prosecutors had made fools of themselves, he was released with all charges dropped. But the goal was achieved. Strauss-Kahn had to resign as IMF director and kiss goodbye his chance for the presidency of France.

Curious, isn't it, that a woman has now appeared who claims Trump raped her when she was 13 years old.

Consider the political establishment's response to the Brexit vote. Members of Parliament are saying that the vote is unacceptable and that Parliament has the right and responsibility to ignore the voice of the people.

The view now established in the West is that the people are not qualified to make political decisions. The position of the opponents of Brexit is clear: it simply is not a matter for the British people whether their sovereignty is given away to an unaccountable commission in Brussels.

Martin Schultz, President of the EU Parliament, puts it clearly: "It is not the EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate."

The Western media have made it clear that they do not accept the people's decision either. The vote is said to be "racist" and therefore can be disregarded as illegitimate.

Washington has no intention of permitting the British to exit the European Union. Washington did not work for 60 years to put all of Europe in the EU bag that Washington can control only to let democracy undo its achievement.

The Federal Reserve, its Wall Street allies, and its Bank of Japan and European Central Bank vassals will short the UK pound and equities, and the presstitutes will explain the decline in values as "the market's" pronouncement that the British vote was a mistake. If Britain is actually permitted to leave, the two-year long negotiations will be used to tie the British into the EU so firmly that Britain leaves in name only.

No one with a brain believes that Europeans are happy that Washington and NATO are driving them into conflict with Russia. Yet their protests have no effect on their governments.

Consider the French protests of what the neoliberal French government, masquerading as socialist, calls "labor law reforms." What the "reform" does is to take away the reforms that the French people achieved over decades of struggle. The French made employment more stable and less uncertain, thereby reducing stress and contributing to the happiness of life. But the corporations want more profit and regard regulations and laws that benefit people as barriers to higher profitability. Neoliberal economists backed the takeback of French labor rights with the false argument that a humane society causes unemployment. The neoliberal economists call it "liberating the employment market" from reforms achieved by the French people.

The French government, of course, represents corporations, not the French people.

The neoliberal economists and politicians have no qualms about sacrificing the quality of French life in order to clear the way for global corporations to make more profits. What is the value in "the global market" when the result is to worsen the fate of peoples?

Consider the Germans. They are being overrun with refugees from Washington's wars, wars that the stupid German government enabled. The German people are experiencing increases in crime and sexual attacks. They protest, but their government does not hear them. The German government is more concerned about the refugees than it is about the German people.

Consider the Greeks and the Portuguese forced by their governments to accept personal financial ruin in order to boost the profits of foreign banks. These governments represent foreign bankers. not the Greek and Portuguese people.

One wonders how long before all Western peoples conclude that only a French Revolution complete with guillotine can set them free.


Dr Paul Craig Roberts

(Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for Economic Policy under the Reagan administration and later served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of Commerce. Dr. Roberts also held the position of associate editor and columnist for The Wall Street Journal and columnist for Business Week and the Scripps Howard News Service.)

1980's :
https://www.youtube.com/v/EkpS-yBj7gY

@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from?  ;)

It's like another news outlet round here now. Regurgitating press releases and predicting gloom and doom. I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people. Sorry if that comes off as grumpy but try living here surrounded by the soothsayers and hind-sighters, then have to read it all again on my second favourite forum! So its best I step out for a bit now or it might make me.....

<grumpy emoji>
;D

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 30, 2016, 09:00:09 AM
It's like another news outlet round here now. Regurgitating press releases and predicting gloom and doom. I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people. Sorry if that comes off as grumpy but try living here surrounded by the soothsayers and hind-sighters, then have to read it all again on my second favourite forum! So its best I step out for a bit now or it might make me.....

<grumpy emoji>
;D

Joking apart Nick, I suppose that's all we can really do at the moment. Regurgitate press releases and commentary from the mainstream media or cite independent voices that may be out there.

It's quite an unprecedented situation that Europe and greater humanity faces over this "hiccup" caused by a majority vote in the U.K. to exit the European Union.

My own very take on this is that if Britain is allowed to stand alone in Europe then the true significance of this situation, the real difference that it might make, will be eroded to the point, both politically and economically, that it won't constitute that much difference to the chessboard anyway..  Just my personal opinion of course.

I suppose what I'm saying is that one's view of the world, notwithstanding the ingestion of "space cookies" by either side in this debate, is formed by one's personal perspective on the greater matters of mankind.  I suppose we all have our own perspective on life and the universe based upon the information and commentary we choose to give credence to. The MSM has its take and independent voices and minds have theirs..

https://www.youtube.com/v/jVzccbfmcus

grT

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 30, 2016, 09:00:09 AM
I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people.

To discuss solutions the first thing needed is for the UK to be officially out. So let's get that done ASAP, it's the only way forward.

If one is sure enough about his decision, doom predictions should not affect him at all. He should actually be quite happy, because if everything goes as he so firmly thinks, in a few months/years he will be able to backfire in style.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 07:51:38 AM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 07:32:20 AM
Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU.  :)

So let me recap: Sturgeon brainwash people while Farage/Johnson expose facts. Alyn Smith's speech in the EU parliament is laughable while and Farage's speech in the EU parliament is enjoyable.
It seems to me your point of view is so far from the ones of Scottish people that you should have no problem at all in letting them go. What's the problem then ? Why you don't like the idea of Scotland breaking apart for the UK ?

The EU has already made very clear that the EU deals with states: SCO at the moment is not a state. End of the discussion. Anybody knows this. And the way out of that.

I have no problem at all with the Scots having their independence(though any Scot who honestly believes Scotland could survive on it's own income and resources is not living on this planet). But I love to encourage misguided people who don't listen to sense to do what they want to do so that they learn their lesson the hard way which is always the best way for those who always think they know best.  ;)

But I was just saying that Sturgeon isn't being honest about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU, she's only saying and acting on that to gain extra support for a possible Scottish indie referendum. You say end of discussion yet she already knew from the start she couldn't do anything for Scotland to stay in the EU so why did she pursue it in the first place? Just proves she is playing with the minds of Scottish people.
And yes all politicians do the same thing(I never said anything different), but I've a feeling the Scots will fall for it this time round, especially if the UK Gov is silly enough to grant their wishes for a ref anytime soon.....  So I say let the Scots go and do their thing and then come crawling back to the UK on their hands and knees begging to be let back into the UK community..... Boy I'd make them grovel big time! Hehe!  ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 08:51:30 AM
@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from?  ;)

The problem when trying to discuss with people like you (or Dr. Whatever) is always the same: you feel obliged to decorate a few ideas that may have some interest with a load of world-scale conspiracy (and a few random videos from youtube).

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 12:16:06 PM
I have no problem at all with the Scots having their independence(though any Scot who honestly believes Scotland could survive on it's own income and resources is not living on this planet).

That's very funny because the scots are very convinced that can do that. From what I've seen there, I'd say they are right too.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 12:16:06 PM
But I was just saying that Sturgeon isn't being honest about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU, she's only saying and acting on that to gain extra support for a possible Scottish indie referendum.

What's the problem ? it's not as if they started talking about independence just now ... The brexit is just another reason (a quite big one) to ask for an ukxit (or whatever they are going to call that).

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 12:16:06 PM
So I say let the Scots go and do their thing and then come crawling back to the UK on their hands and knees begging to be let back into the UK community..... Boy I'd make them grovel big time! Hehe!  ;D

Says the ones complaining about doom mongering, retaliation, finger pointing etc.

Enjoy your independence, now that you have it.
If in the process you manage to let the Scots get their own one (and N.Ireland too, if that's what they want), they'd be grateful.

Well Max lets see if the Scots could handle their own independence first, but to be honest it isn't going to happen in my opinion. The Scots are not that stupid when it comes to the crunch.

As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

The Brexit result is not a good reason to ask for a Scots independence ref just because the UK voted to exit the EU. Scotland is part of the UK, so why are you saying it's a good reason for an indie vote? Don't you believe in democracy?
Scotland has already had an indie vote and voted against it. Just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU doesn't give them a good reason to then try and get another indie vote anymore than it gives London the right to an indie vote, both regions of the UK voted to remain... So I ask you - What's the problem? Isn't the democratic system good enough for the Scots? How arrogant is that I ask?  :)

I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us.  ::)

Hawk.

When Scotland voted last time was it proposed that they become insignificant members of europe instead? (actually i do not even remember a plan proposed post UK) I think that is the more important question that they would be asked this time and i am not sure you would get the same vote. Spain has unsurprisingly said it will veto anyway - they could end up genuinely independent which should make them even happier.

As for ireland - glad to see the back of the problem. It should have been left to the UN to sort that mess out in the first place and how long do you think before the troubles flare up again and would the EU step in to keep the peace this time?

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 12:43:08 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 08:51:30 AM
@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from?  ;)

The problem when trying to discuss with people like you (or Dr. Whatever) is always the same: you feel obliged to decorate a few ideas that may have some interest with a load of world-scale conspiracy (and a few random videos from youtube).

Oh Max..where does one begin? lol.

Look, the truth is that you and people like you are always the same. You are predictable in that you form your whole perspective on the geopolitics of this world from what you are spoon fed on a daily basis by the mainstream media. The irony of this is that you formulate your thinking based upon a "presstitute" media that is owned by the same interests that own the international banking system including such spin-offs as the the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the European Central Bank. To name but a few.. The same private banking interests that control and influence governments. Hence your outlook on the world might seem a little naive. At least to some of us..

As for your attempted denigration of Dr Roberts, someone who has held high office in U.S. politics, U.S. journalism and U.S. academia, I'm afraid such denigration falls flat on its nose even before it's reached the runway.. I suppose you might seek to rubbish the reputation of highly respected and world renowned journalists of the likes of John Pilger also? Who knows? You might. But again I would say to you that shooting the messenger in this way merely serves to loosen the ground beneath your own feet.

So all I would say to you is rather than engaging in weak and predictable ad hominem attacks against such high profile individuals perhaps you might strive to present a more meaningful and coherent response to counter what they are claiming..?

People agree to differ over subjects like this all the time but that should mean that the standard of the conversation should decline.

Again just my honest opinion and I do not mean to seem rude in voicing it. I really don't.

grT  ;)

Quote from: h106frp on June 30, 2016, 01:41:35 PM
When Scotland voted last time was it proposed that they become insignificant members of europe instead? (actually i do not even remember a plan proposed post UK)

Membership of the EU was one of the argument of the "leave the UK" camp in the last scottish referendum.
At the time however, it was not a powerful argument because most were convinced that the UK will not leave the EU. Gotta admit the situation is a bit different now.

Quote from: h106frp on June 30, 2016, 01:41:35 PM
I think that is the more important question that they would be asked this time and i am not sure you would get the same vote. Spain has unsurprisingly said it will veto anyway -

Wrong. Spain has vetoed any discussion with Scotland right now, because Scotland is not an independent state. So there cannot even be a discussion between the EU and Scotland, just as there can be no discussion between the EU and the Catalans. If Scotland becomes independent, it's another story.

Quote from: h106frp on June 30, 2016, 01:41:35 PM
As for ireland - glad to see the back of the problem. It should have been left to the UN to sort that mess out in the first place and how long do you think before the troubles flare up again and would the EU step in to keep the peace this time?

Don't know, but again, if they want to go and rejoin Ireland what do you want to do ? Keep them in the UK with the force ? It sounds like more trouble to me. They would just be a burden for you (and you for them).

Rule #1 of team playing: the ones that do not want to be in the team, should not be in the team.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us.  ::)

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 01:41:57 PM
You are predictable in that you form your whole perspective on the geopolitics of this world from what you are spoon fed on a daily basis by the mainstream media. The irony of this is that you formulate your thinking based upon a "presstitute" media that is owned by the same interests that own the international banking system including such spin-offs as the the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the European Central Bank. To name but a few.. The same private banking interests that control and influence governments. Hence your outlook on the world might seem a little naive. At least to some of us..

noise ... geopolitics ... noise ... spoon fed ... noise ... mainstream media ... noise ... presstitute ...

I can't judge Mr. Roberts, I've only said that when discussing if an apple is red or green there's no need to bring arguments involving world domination, banks conspiracy or the tower of babel.
Because if you do so, people will stop listening to you. Even if a little part of what you're saying may have sense.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM

noise ... geopolitics ... noise ... spoon fed ... noise ... mainstream media ... noise ... presstitute ...

I can't judge Mr. Roberts, I've only said that when discussing if an apple is red or green there's no need to bring arguments involving world domination, banks conspiracy or the tower of babel.
Because if you do so, people will stop listening to you. Even if a little part of what you're saying may have sense.

I'll be honest with you Max..you make a valid point. Insofar as if one expands upon a possible conspiracy to the man in the street too much then indeed in his eyes it does become unbelievable. That's very true. If you are engaged in an effort to wake up the masses, as Dr Roberts and others I think clearly are, then it is advisable perhaps to only reveal so much to them. Otherwise rather than waking up (if indeed there is any waking up to be done..) you will engender the opposite effect. So yes in that respect I understand what you are saying and I do agree with you. I do, however, consider that Dr Roberts is genuine and well meaning in trying to spread the message that he attempts to spread..

As regards the Tower of Babel..well I'm sure you and I do not want to delve into that one any further here and now. What I would say, however, is that sane and rational individuals have made the same observation..even Reuters carried a piece on this a while back..upturned stars and all. So I'm in some quite good company on that one including the P.R. department of the EU themselves. ;)

Conspiracies of an arguably sinister nature do exist. Sadly. One only has to research such matters as the Gulf of Tonkin incident or Operation Northwoods to appreciate and realise that this is so.

So look, I respect your viewpoint Max. As I respect the viewpoint of others on this thread and elsewhere in the wider world but there will always be those who see life through different eyes..

Love and peace.

grT ;) 

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 02:38:36 PM
As regards the Tower of Babel..well I'm sure you and I do not want to delve into that one any further here and now. What I would say, however, is that sane and rational individuals have made the same observation..even Reuters carried a piece on this a while back..upturned stars and all. So I'm in some quite good company on that one including the P.R. department of the EU themselves. ;)

Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 03:03:01 PM
Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

I was presuming this was a specific subject that held no interest for you Max..bearing this in mind I do not feel any such further discussion on this would prove fruitful.

Having said that it is perhaps reasonable to conjecture that there might be more than just a vague similarity between the EU Building and Bruegel's Tower of Babel. Based upon the EU Official Tower of Babel Poster Printed 1992. Others, yourself included, might reasonably suggest this is nothing more than mere coincidence. Certainly there does seem to be some undeniable symbolism involved with the matter of the poster.   

(http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j410/tracey_roberts1/eu%20poster%20006_zps0xywoj0s.jpg)

grT

Quote from: vin97 on June 28, 2016, 03:49:15 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 26, 2016, 10:55:09 PMIf you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

how exactly does isolation solve those problems, though? do you think unity caused them?

Quote from: vin97 on June 30, 2016, 03:34:47 PM

Quote from: vin97 on June 28, 2016, 03:49:15 PM

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 26, 2016, 10:55:09 PMIf you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

how exactly does isolation solve those problems, though? do you think unity caused them?

Well look, at the risk of being categorised as someone who would be better cared for in an asylum, if you follow the thinking of someone like Dr Paul Craig Roberts through to its conclusion then by extricating yourself, as a an independent sovereign state, from the union it serves to position your nation as a check and a balance to what is going on in Europe and the greater world. Envision, perhaps, a declaration of war by Washington against Iran. God forbid. If you rest independent then one's independent parliament might have the ability to exercise some influence and independence against such a decision to go to war. If your nation was part of an EU Superstate perhaps your nation's people and parliament (if such a thing existed) might not be able to bring the same independent influence to bear. Same goes for any action against Russia I suppose. Take the example of the U.K.'s parliament's decision in 2013 not to accede to Washington's request to participate in an aerial bombing campaign against the sovereign state of Syria. The U.K. parliament voted overwhelmingly against such action and the planned bombing campaign did not as a consequence take place.

I suppose what I am espousing here is the ability to indulge in independent thought and decisions as an independent sovereign nation. You might, just might, be able to avert an unnecessary and dangerous war that might have the potential to escalate into a much wider and more dangerous conflict.   

All I can suggest vin is that perhaps you give Dr Robert's video (radio interview) a listen (I'm not quite sure how easily you might follow the spoken conversation though as English is your second language). He expands upon this theme to quite an extent. As does John Pilger in his recent press interviews.

However, I suppose war is only one aspect of this. There are other potential advantages in the ability to have an independent sovereign voice heard on the world stage.

grT 

@So your hiding in here now Tracey lol

Check your YouTube btw, it might interest you.

DD

Ok, you explained why being a sovereign nation has advantages but I still don't see how it solves fundamental problems of capitalism (like the ones I originally quoted from your post).

Might watch the video if it's not too long.

Gpbikes beta9 has just been released

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 30, 2016, 04:49:27 PM
Gpbikes beta9 has just been released

Nearly spat my coffee out........  ;D

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 30, 2016, 04:56:45 PM

Quote from: Toomes1 on June 30, 2016, 04:49:27 PM
Gpbikes beta9 has just been released

Nearly spat my coffee out........  ;D

Lol🖖

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 03:31:39 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 03:03:01 PM
Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

I was presuming this was a specific subject that held no interest for you Max..bearing this in mind I do not feel any such further discussion on this would prove fruitful.

Having said that it is perhaps reasonable to conjecture that there might be more than just a vague similarity between the EU Building and Bruegel's Tower of Babel. Based upon the EU Official Tower of Babel Poster Printed 1992. Others, yourself included, might reasonably suggest this is nothing more than mere coincidence. Certainly there does seem to be some undeniable symbolism involved with the matter of the poster.   

It's not a coincidence, it was made on purpose. Maybe to stress the fact that the EU wants itself to be multi-language and multi-cultural (concepts hard to swallow for some, I know).
No wait, I've just read the text in the yellow square on the lower right corner of the image ...

BTW, I can also see people with square heads in the image. I'm sure some will have a perfectly conspiratorial explanation for that too. Not that I want to hear it though ...

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 05:36:29 PM

It's not a coincidence, it was made on purpose. Maybe to stress the fact that the EU wants itself to be multi-language and multi-cultural (concepts hard to swallow for some, I know).
No wait, I've just read the text in the yellow square on the lower right corner of the image ...

BTW, I can also see people with square heads in the image. I'm sure some will have a perfectly conspiratorial explanation for that too. Not that I want to hear it though ...

I'm not saying you are wrong Max. Only comment I would venture is that an upside down star is of course a symbol associated with ancient Babylon. Which just as an observation does seem a little odd. Also it is notable that the baby infant cradled by the woman in the poster is the only human character in the poster depicted as having a normal "roundish" human head. Following complaints from members of the public and religious organisations this poster was promptly removed from circulation. Which again does strike one as being just a little odd.     

grT

Quote from: vin97 on June 30, 2016, 04:37:26 PM
Ok, you explained why being a sovereign nation has advantages but I still don't see how it solves fundamental problems of capitalism (like the ones I originally quoted from your post).

Might watch the video if it's not too long.

I no longer perceive the Western financial system as being capitalism vin. Not in the true sense of what capitalism is understood to mean. Bank bail-outs on a far reaching and mammoth scale do not fit with the definition. Nor do "bail-ins" for that matter. I think the present system is more akin to what I would describe as rampant "corporatism" and to many intents and purposes is arguably a kleptocracy in how it functions and operates. If 1% (some would say 62 families) own over 50% of the world's financial wealth then something has gone slightly askew with the concept of capitalism I think many would argue. The corporate interests that actively lobby at the EU are no different from the corporate interests that lobby elsewhere in the Western world and in particular in Washington.

So what I am suggesting is if you're out at least as a nation you might have more of a chance, to a small degree at least, of trying something a little different. Maybe you might have more of an opportunity to change and alter the financial system that operates in your country to the benefit of the majority. Take Iceland for want of a better example..

grT

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us.  ::)

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol  ;)

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting.  :P

Hawk.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 01:20:37 PM
I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us.  ::)

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol  ;)

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and the losers should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting.  :P

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I think the 2 yrs limit is written down in the art 50 rules. It's 2 years starting form when you invoke the art 50. Which, as said above, is likely to come fairly soon, which by the way I think is good for the UK too: the sooner you clarify the situation, the more you avoid wild speculations.

But notice that the 2 years are to complete the process: as soon as you invoke art 50, you're already partially out (e.g. you can't participate in any EU decision).
2 years are the technical time needed to straighten out all the details, nothing more.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM
I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol  ;)

It wasn't a "you" in the sense "you Hawk" of course. But the point stands: many in the UK are against a new scottish referendum because they fear its outcome, especially right now.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting.  :P

That's the very problem for Scotland: they have quite a different view on many aspects compared to the rest of the UK, but as they are just a few millions, their vote is almost always totally irrelevant.
From your point of view, they just have to accept every decision that the UK takes on their behalf.

As Stout pointed out, your claims versus the EU are fairly similar to the claims of Scotland versus the UK. You want to be free from the EU (which is totally your right, no doubt), they want to be free from the UK.

I do support any democratic system: that's why I'm utterly against a revote for the brexit. The UK has spoken, the result is there.
But at the same time, Scotland will never be able to do what they want until the day they separate from the UK.

Now you answer me:

1. A few messages ago you said you have nothing against Scotland leaving the UK. You even said above that Scotland won't be able to survive alone, somehow implying that he UK is paying money to Scotland to keep it afloat. But now you say "but no referendum right now, or the leave-UK will win". But what would be the problem for the UK if Scotland leaves ? You think Scotland is a burden for the UK, so you should be happy if they leave, no ? Just like me being happy for the UK leaving the EU.

2. How does it come that the brexit referendum is the biggest example of democratic process in the history of humanity but a Scottish referendum is totally un-democratic ?! I'm a bit lost.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I think the 2 yrs limit is written down in the art 50 rules. It's 2 years starting form when you invoke the art 50. Which, as said above, is likely to come fairly soon, which by the way I think is good for the UK too: the sooner you clarify the situation, the more you avoid wild speculations.

But notice that the 2 years are to complete the process: as soon as you invoke art 50, you're already partially out (e.g. you can't participate in any EU decision).
2 years are the technical time needed to straighten out all the details, nothing more.

As far as I understand article 50, the UK will only officially exit the EU after the period stated in the article(up to 2 years, longer if member states agree). Until that period is complete then the UK will remain a member of the EU with all it's rights, privileges and costs.
But your right in that the quicker the better... So make no mistake, I personally don't want the UK in the EU any longer than is absolutely required.  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 02:23:46 PM
I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol  ;)

It wasn't a "you" in the sense "you Hawk" of course. But the point stands: many in the UK are against a new Scottish referendum because they fear its outcome, especially right now.

That was just me having a little fun with you..... I did actually realise that you were not referring to me personally.   ;D 8)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 09:13:02 PM

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 08:41:04 PM
But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting.  :P

That's the very problem for Scotland: they have quite a different view on many aspects compared to the rest of the UK, but as they are just a few millions, their vote is almost always totally irrelevant.
From your point of view, they just have to accept every decision that the UK takes on their behalf.

As Stout pointed out, your claims versus the EU are fairly similar to the claims of Scotland versus the UK. You want to be free from the EU (which is totally your right, no doubt), they want to be free from the UK.

I do support any democratic system: that's why I'm utterly against a revote for the brexit. The UK has spoken, the result is there.
But at the same time, Scotland will never be able to do what they want until the day they separate from the UK.

Didn't the Scots vote to remain in the UK when we had a Scottish referendum recently? Isn't that the Scots voting to do what they wanted?
So why do you think us Brits are against the Scots or that the democratic system is unfair for Scotland? It's no more unfair than Londoners squealing like they are doing right now about having to leave of the EU against their wishes because the majority of the country voted to remain, surely.
So according to your thinking Londoners should also have a right to an indie vote too so that they can then join the EU. Lol  ;D
Okay, a little flippant, but you get my drift, right?  :)

Of course now is not the time to have a referendum for Scotland to leave the UK. Do you think it would be a good idea? This referendum should be given to the Scots when everything has calmed down and we've left the EU and given the UK a chance to see where she's heading. Anything earlier would be a decision made with pure emotion and that is never a good thing to make decisions with.
Of course Nicola Sturgeon will be pushing harder now than she ever has done before and trying to also whip-up Scottish Nationalism for her cause because she knows full well that this is likely to be the best chance that she'll get the majority support from the Scottish people to leave the UK(Stupid Bitch!).
But honestly now is not the time for that referendum, and I'm sure if you thought about it sensibly then you'd agree?  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 30, 2016, 09:13:02 PM
Now you answer me:

1. A few messages ago you said you have nothing against Scotland leaving the UK. You even said above that Scotland won't be able to survive alone, somehow implying that he UK is paying money to Scotland to keep it afloat. But now you say "but no referendum right now, or the leave-UK will win". But what would be the problem for the UK if Scotland leaves ? You think Scotland is a burden for the UK, so you should be happy if they leave, no ? Just like me being happy for the UK leaving the EU.

2. How does it come that the brexit referendum is the biggest example of democratic process in the history of humanity but a Scottish referendum is totally un-democratic ?! I'm a bit lost.

1. To be honest I personally think it would be a shame if Scotland decided to leave the UK.... believe it or not I actually like the Scots, and I think the majority of the UK does too. And so far as I'm concerned the Scots are certainly no burden to the UK whatsoever and just add to the UK's world famed cultural diversity from both sides of the border. But I do still think that if Scotland decided to leave the UK then within a decade the majority of Scottish people would want to return to the UK.

2. I'm not saying a Scottish indie referendum would be undemocratic..... In fact the Scots have already had a Scottish independence referendum recently and voted to remain.... How many more referendums do they want?
Maybe the Scots would've been better to listen to the UK government at the time instead of supporting the SNP in wanting that vote? At least then they'd be more likely to get one now don't you think?

But just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU against the majority result doesn't then automatically give the Scots the right to another Indie Referendum just so that they can suit themselves when a democratic result goes against them.
I'm sure they will get their chance again at some stage in the future, but as I've already said, now would not be a sensible time to hold a Scottish Indie Ref vote, not because I know better, but because of the reasons I've already stated in a paragraph above in this post. It's about being rational and not making emotional decisions Scotland would probably come to regret later.

What Nicola Sturgeon isn't telling the Scottish people is that even if they did get a ref indie vote right now and voted to come out the UK, then Scotland would still not be able to join the EU for many years afterwards, and even then only if they could meet certain criteria's with their new independent economy and agree to adopt the Euro financial system(the Scots wanted to keep the pound as their currency if I remember rightly last time out)... I mean look how long Turkey have wanted to join the EU and yet they are still saying that it will be at least 2030 before they even get a sniff at it, and Turkey is a lot richer country than Scotland would ever be.
There's a lot of things the SNP haven't told the Scottish people about what it would actually mean to go independent.... I honestly believe they wouldn't be able to afford it without another countries financial support?

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
As far as I understand article 50, the UK will only officially exit the EU after the period stated in the article(up to 2 years, longer if member states agree). Until that period is complete then the UK will remain a member of the EU with all it's rights, privileges and costs.

Then you understand it wrong I fear.

"The form of any withdrawal agreement would depend on the negotiations and there is therefore no guarantee the UK would find the terms acceptable. The EU Treaties would cease to apply to the UK on the entry into force of a withdrawal agreement or, if no new agreement is concluded, after two years, unless there is unanimous agreement to extend the negotiating period. During the two-year negotiation period, EU laws would still apply to the UK. The UK would continue to participate in other EU business as normal, but it would not participate in internal EU discussions or decisions on its own withdrawal."

So it could take less than 2 years but no more, and you lose your right to participate in any EU decision as soon as art 50 is invoked. Details here: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/ (http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/)

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
So according to your thinking Londoners should also have a right to an indie vote too so that they can then join the EU. Lol  ;D
Okay, a little flippant, but you get my drift, right?  :)

I do get it and in your shoes I'd start pondering if this could really happen (not that I hope for it of course).
We all know that UK decisions are taken in London considering only London's interests, so ...

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
Of course now is not the time to have a referendum for Scotland to leave the UK. Do you think it would be a good idea?

Yes. Because the result would be leave, which I think is good for Scotland, even more after the recent facts.
Right now doesn't mean tomorrow. It cannot happen before a year or more, so the decision won't be emotional at all.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
2. I'm not saying a Scottish indie referendum would be undemocratic..... In fact the Scots have already had a Scottish independence referendum recently and voted to remain.... How many more referendums do they want?

The recent events are a big game-changer, that's why I think another referendum is legitimate. If brexit hadn't won, I would not be in favor of another Scottish referendum that soon of course.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
But just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU against the majority result doesn't then automatically give the Scots the right to another Indie Referendum just so that they can suit themselves when a democratic result goes against them.

Scotland will never ever have something they like voted, because they can't have the majority. This is they very reason why they want to split.
If SCO wants a law to prevent drinking between 9pm and 2am and LON is against, then they are screwed.
If they want a law to prevent 2 strokes and LON is against, they are screwed.
If they want a law to protect the original fish and chips and LON is against, they are screwed.

Now you can say this is democratic, but only because you oblige them to be part of the UK.

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
I'm sure they will get their chance again at some stage in the future, but as I've already said, now would not be a sensible time to hold a Scottish Indie Ref vote, not because I know better, but because of the reasons I've already stated in a paragraph above in this post. It's about being rational and not making emotional decisions Scotland would probably come to regret later.

The referendum could not take place before 1 year or more, emotion will be over. What's the other argument ?

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
What Nicola Sturgeon isn't telling the Scottish people is that even if they did get a ref indie vote right now and voted to come out the UK, then Scotland would still not be able to join the EU for many years afterwards, and even then only if they could meet certain criteria's with their new independent economy and agree to adopt the Euro financial system(the Scots wanted to keep the pound as their currency if I remember rightly last time out)...

Could be true. But if they do want to join, the sooner they start the process the better (for them I mean).

Quote from: Hawk on June 30, 2016, 10:43:00 PM
I mean look how long Turkey have wanted to join the EU and yet they are still saying that it will be at least 2030 before they even get a sniff at it, and Turkey is a lot richer country than Scotland would ever be.

You see, you (UK) put always the economic arguments before anything else.
In the EU I prefer a "poor" country with a true European spirit to a "rich" country that only works to sabotage the EU from the inside.
As soon as Turkey meets all the criteria (on freedom, human rights etc), I'm more than glad to have them in the EU.

And a bit of fun: http://thebrexitplan.com/ (http://thebrexitplan.com/) :)

Too much free wine for lunch at the U.K. tax payers' expense Jean-Claude?  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/v/XPgiI46FCDU

grT

Drinking to forget maybe :)

Like he forgot to complete the investigation into organised tax avoidance in Luxembourg? 

Quote from: h106frp on July 01, 2016, 12:05:36 PM
Like he forgot to complete the investigation into organised tax avoidance in Luxembourg?

Do you mean it would be nice to have a common European tax policy ?

It would be nice if the guy preaching to the rest of us was not responsible for the largest organized tax avoidance scam within Europe where the investigation was stalled the day he became supreme ruler.

While the UK is still in, your MEPs could use their time in the parliament to raise that interesting objection, instead of ... less productive chat.

But curiously I've never heard the UK even barely comment stuff around taxation or fiscal policies ... wonder why ...

They did and tried to stop the presidency but got sidelined, the UK closed the loopholes while Luxembourg sent the whistle blowers to prison and carried on as before

Closed the loopholes ?  :o But if just a few weeks ago Cameron tried to get a "London exemption" for any current and future EU fiscal/tax policy ?

But yes, the Luxleaks stuff is very fishy at best. But don't worry, the thing is not over. In the recent past some very good progress has been made by the EU with respect to evasion in some countries (e.g. Switzerland, I know first hand I have an account there, with little to no money, but still ...). Of course, fighting that battle is much easier if you're a union of 20+ states ...

Yeh I know it isn't funny to post press stuff so I went to the EU website:

3rd Main Aim of the EU:

3.Citizenship, freedom, security and justice

3a. Freedom, security and justice 

– justice and home affairs, border protection, immigration and asylum policy.

3b. Citizenship 

– public health, consumer protection, culture, youth, information and dialogue with citizens.

Part of the EU 144bn budget : 1.3%

5.Administration

Covers the administrative expenditure of all the European institutions, pensions and EU-run schools for staff members' children ("European Schools"), +health care, travel, and Leisure expenses (includes free Viagra).

Part of the EU 144bn budget : 5.8%

Nice ! I expect a lot of people would object to that but don't bother complaining cos you aren't allowed to. You could take a vote against it...oh wait. Why can't these people just go to work every day and pay their way like the rest of us do?

Just thought I would pop back and stir the pot a bit.  :) Now I will pop off again until I read something else shocking.

Nice post Nick..... What lepers they are.... It's a shame part of the leave campaign didn't concentrate on the MEP expenses scandals as I think even more people would've come over to the leave EU campaign.... but then they were probably afraid of rebooting the still disgusting expenses claims from themselves too?

On another note: If the Tories vote in that typical remain voter Tory bitch(Theresa May) then mark my words - when it comes to the negotiations the UK will end up with a deal that will basically make leaving the EU and having the referendum having been a pointless task..... We'll end up with an EU market access deal which is basically the same as we already have now in the name of supposedly "what's best for the UK and business".... You mark my words guys because this is what the Tories are trying to do now.
If they had any intention of fulfilling the result of the leave campaign then they'd make sure that a true believer in leaving the EU was at the helm. If you've noticed they have conveniently manoeuvred any leave campaigners out of real contention for the Tory leadership.

Hawk.

@Nick: You did something very tabloid-ish... you wrote down some info - out of context, without providing the whole information, mixing source text with your own edits - supposedly providing hard facts and proving something. For someone who is (rightfully) criticizing the methods of the majority of the media you do not seem to follow your own principles very strictly.

I agree Hawk. How can someone who voted to stay in be considered as the right person to take us forward? Makes no sense whatsoever.
I admit this is my single and most worrying thought now. Who the feck do I want to lead us on?
Actually can't think of anyone.
Time to put myself up for election I think!   ;D whatdya say? Are you with me or are you part of the problem! Vote Napalm, the non beaurocratic/ intelectuals  choice, referendums about all major political decisions guar-an-teeed.  ;)

Stout - the facts stated are 100% and 90% copy and paste amended for clarity and expanded where I see fit in my opinion (ie to make each side have an equal number of facts, which is what forum posts are or I would have just put a link and said "make up your own mind"  People can go read up on it themselves after all.
I don't see why you have to attack peoples posts for content or the way they are expressed. We are not politicians or even semi professional journalists. In fact if we are going to start that i can reply your post is biased to try and make people believe I am trying to deceive people. Which funnily enough is a politicians trick - ignore the facts and attack the person to take the heat off. Are u an MEP? Lol. So there!  :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 02, 2016, 09:42:51 AM
I don't see why you have to attack peoples posts for content or the way they are expressed.
[...] ignore the facts and attack the person to take the heat off.

Wow.... not really sure what made you think I was attacking you? This whole topic really does make your blood boil over. Try to read my post above again tomorrow and you will probably see it in a totally different light.

All I wanted to say is, that whoever reads your post cannot distinguish which information you took from the website of the EU and what your comments are. There is a good reason why academic articles and good newspaper articles always indicate which info is cited and which is the commentation of the author. I guess it would not have been much of a hassle to make it somehow distinguishable what your comments are...

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 02, 2016, 09:42:51 AM
[...]which is what forum posts are or I would have just put a link and said "make up your own mind"  People can go read up on it themselves after all.

You are right, that is what forum posts are about. But with the way you wrote your post, that is not possible. People have to go and read up on it themselves to be able to distinguish what your opinion is and what really 'the facts' are...

Maybe it is now more clear what I was aiming at.

Sorry Stout but to imply I should calm down and read your post tomorrow as if I am impaired is frankly insulting. Maybe you could try and see that instead - I dont know lets think how.....hmm maybe go read it tomorrow after the high and mighty Sunday school teacher fog has cleared? See? Not nice is it.  ;D Last time it was your interpretation that my comments were 'grumpy', now that my blood is boiling and after this post you will assume my head has totally exploded. All wrong and more importantly irrelevant to the discussion. Fighting facts and opinion with more facts and opinion is how a healthy fun discussion goes, I think people here are generally past the how to debate 101 classes.

It will shock everyone to know the post is a direct cut and paste with % costs of each added. Funnily enough though the administration paragraph was only a short sentence ending at "European schools" so I went to find out what else the admin expenses include and expanded more info into it to try and make it as lengthy as the paragraph they allowed on Citizenship, freedom, security and justice which is considerably longer, unsurprisingly. No doubt some of the money for admin is spent on useful stuff as well but the whole point of the post, perhaps missed or ignored, is how little is spent on this major part of the ethos of the EU - the part people believe in - even us outies!

If someone has argument to these not being facts (pretty impossible as they are their facts) then fine let's discuss it. I might even change my opinion cos Im pretty easy going and not a butt-hurt. (I believe that is a term youngsters use nowadays lol).

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 09:06:41 AM
Nice post Nick..... What lepers they are.... It's a shame part of the leave campaign didn't concentrate on the MEP expenses scandals as I think even more people would've come over to the leave EU campaign.... but then they were probably afraid of rebooting the still disgusting expenses claims from themselves too?

On another note: If the Tories vote in that typical remain voter Tory bitch(Theresa May) then mark my words - when it comes to the negotiations the UK will end up with a deal that will basically make leaving the EU and having the referendum having been a pointless task..... We'll end up with an EU market access deal which is basically the same as we already have now in the name of supposedly "what's best for the UK and business".... You mark my words guys because this is what the Tories are trying to do now.
If they had any intention of fulfilling the result of the leave campaign then they'd make sure that a true believer in leaving the EU was at the helm. If you've noticed they have conveniently manoeuvred any leave campaigners out of real contention for the Tory leadership.

Hawk.

Pretty much what happened after the French referendum in 2005 - bit of spin and enacted anyway despite a vote against

Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 30, 2016, 07:02:23 PM

Quote from: vin97 on June 30, 2016, 04:37:26 PM
Ok, you explained why being a sovereign nation has advantages but I still don't see how it solves fundamental problems of capitalism (like the ones I originally quoted from your post).

Might watch the video if it's not too long.

I no longer perceive the Western financial system as being capitalism vin. Not in the true sense of what capitalism is understood to mean. Bank bail-outs on a far reaching and mammoth scale do not fit with the definition. Nor do "bail-ins" for that matter. I think the present system is more akin to what I would describe as rampant "corporatism" and to many intents and purposes is arguably a kleptocracy in how it functions and operates. If 1% (some would say 62 families) own over 50% of the world's financial wealth then something has gone slightly askew with the concept of capitalism I think many would argue. The corporate interests that actively lobby at the EU are no different from the corporate interests that lobby elsewhere in the Western world and in particular in Washington.

So what I am suggesting is if you're out at least as a nation you might have more of a chance, to a small degree at least, of trying something a little different. Maybe you might have more of an opportunity to change and alter the financial system that operates in your country to the benefit of the majority. Take Iceland for want of a better example..

grT

As a final thought vin. My strong contention to you would be that if we truly seek peace and security for the world we must banish the private central banking system to the textbooks of history. A return to a state issued value based currency system of finance is in my honest opinion the only real hope for peace and security in this world. If mankind were insightful enough to do this not only would a state of reasonable financial stability be achieved but also such phenomena as false flag terrorism and currency wars would melt away into the ether..

Question is whether mankind is clever enough to look beyond the end its collective noses and actually do this.. Based upon current strategies out there at least a segment of mankind is adopting such an initiative.

I fear if things continue as they are then divide and conquer and infighting and disharmony, not to mention wars, will remain to be the symptom of the age. 

grT  :)

The "Bank of England" manager announced last week that 250bn pounds would be made available to financial institutions to ease and stabilise the markets should they need it.  :o

What I'd like to know is: Were did that money come from so easily seeing as we are all supposed to be in the age of austerity together, and if any financial institution that does dip into that fund has to then pay it back and under what terms?

Just seems to me that when the financial institutions even sniff a problem the country virtually gives them a blank cheque to ease their pains yet will do nothing but make even further cut-backs to the ordinary populations woes to make their lives even harder!!??  WTF is that all about I ask myself!! :o

Hawk.

I've been down the pub Hawk..so watch out everyone! lol.

The answer to your question Hawk is simple. They "print" the money out of thin air. It's just digits on a computer system. Nothing more. Then they charge interest to the state to use the money they have so generated. That's how it works. It's a Fiat currency.

Of course the bigger and more overwhelming question is who is all this debt that overburdens the Western nations owed to?

Of course the answer to that tempting question is that proximately and ultimately the insurmountable and soaring debt is owed to the exact same people, the same entity if you like, that printed it out of thin air in the first place..

Ever felt like you've been had people?

grT  ;)

Nick, from my perspective our conversation went as follows.
-I try to propose a better indication in a post of what is cited and what is user comments (maybe you did not like the comparison 'tabloid-ish'?)
-In your subsequent post, you tell me I am ignoring facts and attacking you  :o.
-Then I try to explain again what I meant and that I assume that the reason for you misunderstanding me is your 'blood boiling'
-Then you tell me that you feel insulted :o and seem to suggest I do not know to debate properly

First off, I like you and so there is no reason for me trying to insult you. If anything came across strange (which caused you to become even grumpier  :D), then my apologies. Reading our conversation from your perspective, I think one could possibly dislike the words 'tabloid-ish' and 'blood boiling'. Please be assured it was without any bad interest. Maybe I could have furnished them a little  ;)smiley but I figured I can do without. But since this is a very special topic here, I probably should have included them...

Other than that, I do not see much in my comments that could possibly make you feel insulted, to be honest. And if I have the honest impression that you seem to be a bit edgy (and I said - 'seem' - which also includes the possibility of me having a false impression) then I will just say that if it is my honest opinion. Because it in fact is relevant - if it can possibly cause you to misinterpret my posts. Same with my proposal to read my comment later. It is not like it is beyond all possibility that one might see something in a different light later, especially if someone was a bit edgy (which was my impression). And to me it is a bit far-stretched to read some sort of impaired-ness out of this. Being in a bad mood has nothing to do with being impaired. In fact, maybe I was a bit grumpy myself, when I posted this.

Hope this somehow settles this 'personal conflict'  ;) (precisely timed inverted commas and emoji)

Back to the real topic itself: I think in terms of the 'real Brexit' after the referendum itself, the opinions here do not seem to differ much. It is in the books, there should be no 'new referendum', it should be proceeded with instantly etc. The only real difference here (from what I have perceived) is rather in the assessment of whether the EU is something that can work in the future or not. But this is not really something for the Brexiteers to worry about anymore. And quite frankly, I do not think we can reach a consensus on this very topic. The EU has some severe issues, I think many here (if not all agree). It is rather the fundamental question whether one thinks it should be fought for and improved collectively or just be abandoned which we cannot seem to agree on... so maybe we should just leave it at this point.

Yes Stouty no worries here I do agree with what you are saying in more than just this topic and respect your opinion. I guess this topic is 'tetchy'. Alls good and i know the intentions are well meant as advice..

From our UK perspective it has been a long ride, we have been working to these conclusions for months and months with little useful information to finally put that mark on a price of paper. Such a simple thing for such a big decision.
Because I believe I did the right thing I obviously want to put some of my reasoning down and hope others can at least understand why I/we voted as we did.

For me personally in a condensed nutshell, that is because the ethos of having an EU that i wanted to be in, has been destroyed by faceless beurocrats raping the very people who put them there. I want to hear why people still support this and I put my opinions down against it. I guess I find it somewhat irritating when the responses are about my assumed conduct and character rather than any reference to the point of the post.  ;) I mean, should the administration of one of the main ideas - the safety of its citizens - get 4 times more funding than the idea itself?  Surely that has gone bananas! Bent non-eu directed ones at that.

Only Vulcans like Max should never need or use emoticons  ;)

Quote from: h106frp on July 02, 2016, 11:43:50 AM
Pretty much what happened after the French referendum in 2005 - bit of spin and enacted anyway despite a vote against

I don't think it will end up the same way.
Yeah, the 2005 referendum result got partially ignored (which is bad), but here we're a t a very different level.

@Hawk: yes, central banks can print out money out of nothing, nothing strange here (the fact private banks can somehow do the same is much more debatable). Me too I dislike all the help banks and financial institutions get from tmie to time, but keep in mind that when many financial insitutions ends in deep troubles, you end up like the poor people in the US, victims of the subprime scandal. Not good, unless you live in a cave.

@Nick: little EU budget is spent on some areas also because the states have not given the EU control over these areas. the EU has no control of borders for example: it's still up to individual states.
Some people still like the EU idea and principles, that's why they are OK to stay and try to improve it.
And I do use emoticons, but sparingly: I dislike this kind of spoon-fed, geopolitics-driven, minstream media imposed form of communication :P

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 09:06:41 AM
Nice post Nick..... What lepers they are.... It's a shame part of the leave campaign didn't concentrate on the MEP expenses scandals

Because some of the leave campaigner were MEP too maybe ...
You search a bit, I'm sure you can find an expense scandal in any government, including your current and future one.

But then I'm always a bit puzzled when somebody from the UK complains about democracy, expenses etc.: you still have the House of Lords (aka the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Parliament assembled, and I'm not making this up, that's the real full name of the thing) ... and do not complain a iota about it. Weird ...

Make a topic about it and I will complain about it lol.

@grt: Yeah, it's just disgusting that the B of E seem to warrant printing digital money out of thin air like that for the bankers even though the bankers are supposed to be bullet-proof now from these sort of market instabilities(so we keep being told)... I mean do they really need that extra funding and I'd be interested to know if any financial institutions have used some of that funding already to make themselves a lot more money during this period than they'd have to pay back? Virtually given a free-bee to make extra money if you know what I mean?

@Max: Most of the time I'd agree with you on that Max, but actually the House of Lords do a good job sometimes in stopping a party like the Tories(when in government) from ramming through unfair laws. So although for most of the time I'd say yeah lets get rid of them, they are actually a sort of safety net to stop stupid laws being passed; not on every occasion because more than not they will just pass laws that the government want put through, but they do come in useful sometimes, and sometimes is better than not at all.
What I'd change is the way the Lords are elected.... I think they should be elected by the people and not government, if elected is the right word for it?

Max, I understand the importance of supporting the financial system(although only through our self made dependence on the financial system I might add), but there is a difference in supporting them and virtually making money available to them that they don't really need just so that they can take advantage of the situation to make themselves even more money. It just really does seem that they do really see us normal working class people as the plebs and themselves as the master race of whom we as plebs must serve.

As for the stock and money markets, they are just like a massive world casino gambling game for the bankers mostly with a little dabbling by the public. Why cannot companies live or die by their success and failures instead of whether their share prices are at a level required for banks to warrant borrowing them money? Seems the financial system really has got us all by the balls big time to me and there is very little that can be done to stop them, that is barring a total financial system collapse and/or revolution in the way the system works(now that would be something.... Let's have another referendum vote on that! Hehe! ).

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
@grt: Yeah, it's just disgusting that the B of E seem to warrant printing digital money out of thin air like that for the bankers even though the bankers are supposed to be bullet-proof now from these sort of market instabilities(so we keep being told)... I mean do they really need that extra funding and I'd be interested to know if any financial institutions have used some of that funding already to make themselves a lot more money during this period than they'd have to pay back? Virtually given a free-bee to make extra money if you know what I mean?

The more you delve into this one realises how complex the subject is. Prior to WWII many of the central banks, including the Bank of England, were privately owned institutions. In fact the Bank of England has been a privately owned institution since its creation in 1694 by a Scotsman William Paterson who famously stated "The bank hath benefit of interest on all moneys which it creates out of nothing." Private ownership continued after Nathan Rothschild assumed overall ownership and control of the Bank of England in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Waterloo. The B of E was not put technically into public ownership until 1946. The control of the bank to all intents and purposes however remains in private hands with an appropriate clause written into the bank's operating license.

By contrast the Federal Reserve remains a conglomeration of private interests and private banks. It is independent of the U.S. government through operation of the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

The European Central bank and other nations' central banks are publicly owned but their decision making and operating remit remains independent of government and state authorities. So these days I suppose one might suggest it is more a question of the mechanism of control rather than perhaps a straightforward matter of ownership.

If one looks at the governors and management personnel of these banking institutions the influence from the private sector and moreover the American private banking sector is quite apparent.

It's an interesting and in some quarters a highly controversial subject. Certainly over the centuries enormous wealth has been accrued by a select few through the system of private centralised banking.

grT  :)

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
@Max: Most of the time I'd agree with you on that Max, but actually the House of Lords do a good job sometimes

Hmm yeah ... but then some of Mussolini's idea were not bad neither :)

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
What I'd change is the way the Lords are elected.... I think they should be elected by the people and not government, if elected is the right word for it?

Appointed, officially. Which is a carefully crafted wording for something less pleasant :)

Anyway positive (for the EU) effects of brexit are already kicking in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens)
I'd suggest reading it carefully, it shows what the UK will be facing when negotiating ...

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 03, 2016, 04:18:06 PM

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
@Max: Most of the time I'd agree with you on that Max, but actually the House of Lords do a good job sometimes

Hmm yeah ... but then some of Mussolini's idea were not bad neither :)

Quote from: Hawk on July 02, 2016, 04:21:11 PM
What I'd change is the way the Lords are elected.... I think they should be elected by the people and not government, if elected is the right word for it?

Appointed, officially. Which is a carefully crafted wording for something less pleasant :)

Anyway positive (for the EU) effects of brexit are already kicking in: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/03/eu-swiss-single-market-access-no-free-movement-citizens)
I'd suggest reading it carefully, it shows what the UK will be facing when negotiating ...

Any quotes from newspapers are just here-say Max..... Okay there maybe some basic truths in what some reputable papers print but all of them are quite willing to take subjects well out of context to push their own opinions onto their readers... That's just the way journalism is these days - Not to be trusted at all mate.  :)

But no matter what the EU does to block us trading with the EU they will be worse off for it as the import/export figures show, and we'll still be free to export and produce(without EU quoters, unlike members of the EU) as much as we can use and sell to the rest of the world, which is a much greater market than the EU.... If the EU want to play hard-ball then let them because they stand to come off a lot worse than we ever will as far as job losses are concerned.

Don't let the doom-mongers fool you into thinking we've made a big mistake, because it's quite obvious from what's being portrayed in the media with the disgusting level of bias towards promoting the opinions of the remain voters that what they are all after is a way to remain in the EU or at least gain a deal with the EU that would mean we might as well not have had a referendum vote at all.
There is nasty business going on behind the scenes in government to high-jack the result of the referendum(hence Theresa May(Remain Supporter) being manoeuvred into position for taking the Prime Ministers job, and she'll get the job with the prime directive to make sure that we do a supposed good deal with the EU under the supposed name of what's best for Britain and business.... Mark my words mate, this is happening now.
If she does then I just hope that all the leave voters have the balls to rise up and give this government a bloody good kicking for treating their citizens like idiots and not following through with what was expected from the referendum result.

Hawk.

I love the way they keep telling us what will happen. Around the Midlands its happened already - profitable businesses that were bought by european companies stripped clean of value and IP and then closed to move the jobs to their respective home countries to avoid trouble with powerful unions, France and Germany some of the worst offenders.

All we have left is acres of cheap warehousing that has followed the abundance of cheap labor that flowed into the country - and do not think you will get a job in a warehouse as the recruitment is run by east european agencies and they do not even bother to advertise the jobs in English - its a closed shop.

Time some of the M25 inner circle visited the rest of the country if they want to try and understand why this has happened. You can only have a unified Europe if the same rules apply to all and its a level playing field, the woeful disadvantage of UK employment legislation creates a lot of resentment.

Quote from: Guimengo on July 02, 2016, 07:59:34 PM
The Rothschild probably had $200 billion decades ago... but because they kept banking private, they lost a bit with some overall devaluation. Still, their inbreeding clearly worked to keep the family name going and in control of so much. The most powerful people own a holdings company with dozens of branches in the most varied fields. The Rothschild bought one or two of the premier wine farms in France, even.

You could devote a whole lifetime of website forums let a lone a single forum thread to the Rothschild banking dynasty and their associates, estimation of their collective financial wealth and their influence on the events of history and of the present day. Here is not the time or the place methinks..

Also remember it was a Rothschild who propositioned and successfully lobbied for the creation of a Zionist state in the Middle East. Lord Rothschild's influence in this matter should not be underestimated. Just examine the Balfour Declaration of 1926 to know that this is so. How many individuals in this world wield such power and influence to create a new sovereign state? A new country. Against the letter of international law. Not many I would submit.     

Here are some brief excerpts from "U.S. Money vs Corporation Currency" penned by the Alfred Owen Crozier in 1912. Crozier was a Midwest attorney who wrote 8 books on the political, legal, and monetary problems of the United States and who was considered by many to be an authority on the subject.

"[The Rothschild] descendants comprise the four great banking houses of that name in Europe—in London, Paris, Berlin and Vienna. In 1863 the wealth of this one family was conservatively estimated at $3,200,000,000, over three billions of dollars. This huge total compounded during the past fifty years and increased by incidental investments in mines, timber and many other things, may now amount to fifty or one hundred billions. No one outside knows the amount. With alliances controlled by this family it surely directly or indirectly controls a large portion of all government bonds and at least one-third of the world's estimated total wealth of $377,000,000,000.

But suppose the Rothschilds themselves only own $39,000,000,000, an amount equal to the bonded debt of all the governments of the world, with an annual income of $2,300,000.000 or two-thirds what their total wealth was in 1863. Any change either way in these figures will be a variation only in degree. In no way does it materially change the acknowledged potent fact that in all great national and international monetary and financial affairs the Rothschilds always play the ruling hand. They possess masterful genius and financial intellect. But it is the sheer weight of liquid or ready wealth held in such large quantity that all the nations of the world must go to the Rothschilds for financial assistance in time of peace, or before they can go to war whatever the provocation or emergency, that gives them supreme power in the world's affairs. No war can be waged without money, and no large nation can get adequate money to finance a war from anyone but the Rothschilds. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that whenever any war is begun the Rothschilds have consented thereto. They may finance both sides, because it is immaterial whether the interest profits they crave come from one or both countries. In fact the war furnishes an excuse recognized as legitimate for charging both nations higher interest rates not only on the new debts but on old obligations maturing and being refunded. Increase to 4 per cent from 3 per cent is a 25 per cent increase in the total income and in the value of bonds, measured by their earning power.

It is known, of course, that after the nations have fought for a while and murdered tens of thousands and wounded and permanently maimed hundreds of thousands of human beings on both sides, pressure exerted by other governments instigated by the financiers will force a quick compromise, leaving the nations both in approximately the same condition as before except that each has vastly increased its debt and the annual interest burden on its people while the financiers have gotten rid of accumulated capital in exchange for high interest gold bonds that can not be paid for perhaps thirty or fifty years. This surely is the result if not the deliberate plan.

Then again, the debt of the principal European countries has been doubled or vastly increased during the long period of "armed peace."



Anyway, back to Brexit.. ;)

grT

Quote from: h106frp on July 03, 2016, 05:58:36 PM
Time some of the M25 inner circle visited the rest of the country if they want to try and understand why this has happened. You can only have a unified Europe if the same rules apply to all and its a level playing field, the woeful disadvantage of UK employment legislation creates a lot of resentment.

Yes I remember some horrible documentary about how out of all the EU countries that provide jobs to "anyone in Europe" (a kind of EU Job Centre) the UK provides over 65% of the adverts alone. Of course it may well be bolllox but if not then I hope not any more. But I take everything with a pinch of salt nowadays.
I liked the Remain argument "Who will pick the tulips and do the minimum wage labour now?" . Well I say "the idle lazy British unemployed twats." Do the work and we will subsidise the pay with some benefits". Not "have some benefits which make you better off than working". I mean, come on we need someone who will say this shit and not worry about losing some election votes.
What we need is a dictatorship like the EU....oh.  ::) 
;D

Vote Napalm.

Tony Blair, the alleged war criminal, sticking his oar into the Brexit debate in advance of the Chilcot "whitewash" opps sorry inquiry.. ;)

Blair: "The U.K. may never leave the European Union and should therefore keep its options open following last month's referendum result.."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-tony-blair-second-eu-referendum-chilcot-report-latest-news-a7116776.html

Being within a few miles of one of the biggest warehousing operations in the UK (DIRFT) i know first hand the load that a huge influx of people brings; schools, doctors, dentists and housing all at breaking point with huge developments of low quality private (subsidized) rented flats that have become enclaves of other nations with very little integration into the existing community. All in local towns that had high existing levels of unemployment and these are minimum wage jobs again subsidized by taxpayer money - most of the big retailers benefit from more subsidies in working tax credits from the taxpayer than they pay in salaries.

Napalm for president!

The country is seriously fucked up, how do we vote not to have a governing body at all and just have endless referendums to any idea Joe Bloggs comes up with on Change.org?(using these new computer thingies rather than paper and pencil) Majority rule on every decision. It is time to move into the 20th Century and let these antiquated old systems go.

Every day that passes Farage seems more and more like the right choice. That alone scares me a bit.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 03, 2016, 09:44:25 PM
The country is seriously fucked up, how do we vote not to have a governing body at all and just have endless referendums to any idea Joe Bloggs comes up with on Change.org?(using these new computer thingies rather than paper and pencil) Majority rule on every decision. It is time to move into the 20th Century and let these antiquated old systems go.

Every day that passes Farage seems more and more like the right choice. That alone scares me a bit.

I think a lot of people (silent majority) voted out hoping it would stem the drift to the right that we have witnessed over the last few years but the current fiasco in Whitehall is probably making it worse   :(

Quote from: Hawk on July 03, 2016, 05:41:25 PM
Any quotes from newspapers are just here-say Max..... Okay there maybe some basic truths in what some reputable papers print but all of them are quite willing to take subjects well out of context to push their own opinions onto their readers... That's just the way journalism is these days - Not to be trusted at all mate.  :)

So what do you do to get news ?! You listen to Nigel or Boris ? Live ?

Man, they are reporting facts, confirmed by the respective parties ... then of course you can have your own interpretation of the facts but claiming something is not true only because it appears in a (respectable) newspaper sounds a bit wrong.

And there was nothing out of context in what they wrote there: our Swiss friends will have to double check their intentions in terms of immigration/free people circulation if they want to keep on trading in the EU market. And that's very good in my books. But not so good in somebody else's. Message is clear (and not surprising): you get on with the rules, you're in. Else you're out. The less exceptions the better.

But then yes, you are allowed to keep on thinking this is "doom mongering" and you will get an excellent deal hands down, because you're the UK after all.

Quote from: h106frp on July 03, 2016, 09:57:11 PM
I think a lot of people (silent majority) voted out hoping it would stem the drift to the right that we have witnessed over the last few years but the current fiasco in Whitehall is probably making it worse   :(

If that's what happened, then that would be on par with Cameron's masterpiece strategy :)
I thought politics in Italy was the world's lowest, but the last weeks has made me doubt: in a hypothetical general election right now, I don't put it beyond UK voters to elect somebody that was actually in the stay camp. Total madness.

Is there any chance for a coup d'etat from the royal family ? At least Kate is not too bad looking ... :)

I think people are concerned that if an alternative to the current EU situation cannot be found then the next general election will see a populist right winger take power on promises of fighting the EU - it might surprise the rest of europe that is not actually a popular sentiment with the silent majority of the UK who honestly used to believe the EU would fix its problems and just want to get on with life in the easiest way possible.

But..... massive increases in population in a small country with limited resources does not work and if the EU cannot see the problem they should not be running the show. It seems their problem is they can never admit to being wrong because they are better than everyone else and they do not allow us the privilege of replacing them with somebody competent.

You have to understand that for years the vocal minority in the UK have felt that they are the only ones who counted and generally they got their way, these were probably the only voices heard by our own government, the EU and mainland europe - finally people got fed up with it and the (totally expected) 'shock' result.

Queenie should be chopping off a few heads anyway - in fact I make it a few million heads - everyone who voted to follow the Governments traitorous ways selling off her Sovereignty. Instant cure for unemployment, housing and also gets rid of a fair few (at least 3 million) people who also don't believe in a Democratic process. Most of London being first in line. No wonder the gallows and imported guillotines are already there.

Personally I don't see much of a problem with free movement as part of a trade deal. That wasn't part of the reason I voted out anyway, but I tend to agree even the EU suggesting it as an option shows continued trade may be more beneficial to them than us. If not I would just say "Unlucky Brits, go trade with Asia or something.

QuoteI don't put it beyond UK voters to elect somebody that was actually in the stay camp.

Max - Post 1 you bet the wrong way on which way the vote would go so maybe more credit is needed than you are offering? But I wouldn't put any money down as a bet either lol.

H - Like I said earlier the shock was only to London and the Government, I really struggle to find anyone outside of London in my circle who voted to stay in.  Massiv3ly underlines the fact the Government and London have no idea (and probably no interest) in what their countries needs and wants are. To me, voting in any London Politicians is utter madness, whether they voted in or out at the referendum.

Vote Napalm - Westcountry the New Big Smoke.

Quote from: h106frp on July 03, 2016, 10:30:56 PM
But..... massive increases in population in a small country with limited resources does not work

Massive increase ? Small country ?

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 03, 2016, 10:38:11 PM

QuoteI don't put it beyond UK voters to elect somebody that was actually in the stay camp.

Max - Post 1 you bet the wrong way on which way the vote would go so maybe more credit is needed than you are offering? But I wouldn't put any money down as a bet either lol.

Well, it was pretty close so I'm not really ashamed. And by the way I was more or less the only one taking the risk ... everybody else came *after* the vote saying "told you" ... a tad easier.
You didn't seem very convinced *before* the vote if I recall correctly ...

The increases in numbers have been very localized (but becoming widespread) so the impact is significant with some small towns seeing 20% increase in population in a few years and very little has been prepared to accommodate such rises particularly healthcare, housing and schools. The failure to integrate also divides populations of small towns who feel their identity is lost.

Its not funny waiting 2 weeks for a doctors appointment, no chance of a dentist and epic waits for hospital treatment, as for housing - forget it, no chance. The lack of housing has driven private rents through the roof with a lot of this subsidized with taxpayer money.

 

Quote from: h106frp on July 04, 2016, 12:33:44 AM
The increases in numbers have been very localized (but becoming widespread) so the impact is significant with some small towns seeing 20% increase in population in a few years and very little has been prepared to accommodate such rises particularly healthcare, housing and schools. The failure to integrate also divides populations of small towns who feel their identity is lost.

Its not funny waiting 2 weeks for a doctors appointment, no chance of a dentist and epic waits for hospital treatment, as for housing - forget it, no chance. The lack of housing has driven private rents through the roof with a lot of this subsidized with taxpayer money.

True, but I'd blame that on my local government more than on the EU. The one thing I noticed when I was in the UK is that, as you said, there seems to be 2 UKs: the one of the nice and reasonably wealthy, for whom services are available, residential areas look nice and the politicians come from time to time to hear the needs. And then you have the UK of the totally abandoned ones: the ones that just gets exploited, kept in their miserable conditions, most of the time intentionally.

This happens in other countries too of course, but to a lesser degree (especially for a country that overall does pretty well). But then again, this is not something you can blame the EU for.

Yep you were brave to bet, no need to feel ashamed (it wasn't a Nelsons pointy finger 'hawhaw' (http://thlog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Nelson-saying-Haha.jpg) ) my point was only that whatever made you bet that way was ultimately wrong so if the reason you chose that direction is similar to the reason you think the public would vote in an Innie, then that reasoning might be flawed.  Obvious stuff really, probably didn't even need saying, but without knowing what drives you to think that, it is hard to be specific. It comes across a bit like we are all thick twats lol. (Wheras in a recent poll, only 48% are   :D)

Ultimately wrong or 52% wrong ? :)

But no, what I'm saying now is that after the result, the chaos in the leave camp is such that some may have second thoughts.
Anyway, it's purely hypothetical: I haven't heard of anticipated general elections so you'r e fine. Well, sort of :)

Ah yes then I agree, the chaos is reportedly making people have second thoughts, but only with people who perhaps voted without the courage of their convictions, which , at 4 % may well swing any votes!

Personally I like to convince myself the result was a much greater divide in this way:
Take out Scotlands vote, because they (the government not the lovely people but what can you do) don't want to be part of a UK. Take out Londons vote + anyone else who wants a re-run or Independence, because people who don't believe in upholding a democratic vote really should not have been given a vote.

Now, tot up the 'real' results and the split is more like 70/30. A landslide result for common sense and, well, decency.

Vote Napalm - statistically 'proven' -  the right choice.

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 04, 2016, 08:23:44 AM
Ah yes then I agree, the chaos is reportedly making people have second thoughts, but only with people who perhaps voted without the courage of their convictions, which , at 4 % may well swing any votes!

Or maybe people that now doubts about some of the uh ... "promises" of the leave campaign.

But yes, if you take out all the ones that voted stay, the result is a landslide :)

Hahaha yes indeed take all those votes out hahaaha, made me laff that! ;D

Yep people who voted on the promises of the leave campaigns "words on a bus"  perhaps should not have a vote either.
Despite voting out, Farage was not part of the Leave campaign...hmmm he is looking a stronger choice every day. God help us.

I know that I'd be accused of "doom mongering", but I have to break you another bad news: there's no such a thing as God :)

Max when/if UK leaves EU it can once again join EFTA and still enjoy free trade preferential treatment.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association)

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own. They have very advanced political conscience insured by referendums, so their political leaders have a hard time pushing "agendas". Just recently they voted against setting a minimum wage law.

I mean they got away with keeping Hitlers gold, like EU is going to scare them?!   ;D

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 08:57:02 AM
I know that I'd be accused of "doom mongering", but I have to break you another bad news: there's no such a thing as God :)

Wish you could manage to spread that message - really would make the world  better place if the idiots did not believe they could blame the will of god for their actions

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 09:12:25 AM
Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own.

You may read the news about that, because it's changing.

Quote from: h106frp on July 04, 2016, 09:13:27 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 08:57:02 AM
I know that I'd be accused of "doom mongering", but I have to break you another bad news: there's no such a thing as God :)

Wish you could manage to spread that message - really would make the world  better place if the idiots did not believe they could blame the will of god for their actions

I try as much as I can, but it seems to be harder than convincing a brit about staying in the EU :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 04, 2016, 08:38:52 AM
Despite voting out, Farage was not part of the Leave campaign...hmmm he is looking a stronger choice every day. God help us.

Your turn to lose a bet ? :)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw)

Madness. Pure Madness.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 09:16:48 AM

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 09:12:25 AM
Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own.

You may read the news about that, because it's changing.

ok, lets lets assume EU makes Switzerland accept unwanted immigrants.

So they come and get offered jobs/wellfare for 1CHF a month, because http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060)

I am guessing direct democracy is a bitch  :P

@BozoCRO: it wasn't the EU that tried to set up the minimum wage, that's up to the Swiss. And has nothing to do with the discussion.
The EU has some negotiating power over Switzerland and it seems they are finally about to use it (including for recent changes in banking "transparency").

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 09:45:37 AM
@BozoCRO: it wasn't the EU that tried to set up the minimum wage, that's up to the Swiss. And has nothing to do with the discussion.
The EU has some negotiating power over Switzerland and it seems they are finally about to use it (including for recent changes in banking "transparency").

Please quote me where have I said that EU set up the referendum, or I will just assume you are spinning my arguments to discredit me.

Swiss people voted against the minimum wage law to discourage immigrants from coming in the first place, not because EU has any real power over them.
Banking transparency could be used against EU also. So far they only release information that was asked for. What if something unwanted leaked?

Ontopic, This whole carrot and stick game between EU and UK reminds me of sanctions EU imposed on Russia few years back.
So far Russia survived this horror  ::)

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 09:59:28 AM
Please quote me where have I said that EU set up the referendum, or I will just assume you are spinning my arguments to discredit me.

You didn't, but the link between the minimum wage and the discussion is weak.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 09:59:28 AM
Swiss people voted against the minimum wage law to discourage immigrants from coming in the first place, not because EU has any real power over them.

Or maybe because they just don't want a minimum wage, independently of EU immigrants.
Switzerland is already part of Schengen: if they didn't want EU immigrants and had the capability to be out of the EU market, Switzerland would pull out of Schengen. But they haven't and don't plan to in the near future ... too much business at stake ...

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 09:59:28 AM
Ontopic, This whole carrot and stick game between EU and UK reminds me of sanctions EU imposed on Russia few years back.
So far Russia survived this horror  ::)

Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 09:32:08 AM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 04, 2016, 08:38:52 AM
Despite voting out, Farage was not part of the Leave campaign...hmmm he is looking a stronger choice every day. God help us.

Your turn to lose a bet ? :)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw)

Madness. Pure Madness.

Wow yes I read just before here. Get them all out. :)

If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Vote Napalm - really the only choice (left).

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 04, 2016, 10:29:24 AM
If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Oh come on, people here ramble about CIA conspiracies, upside down stars and whatever and I get the "World Best Troll" ? Seems unfair :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM

You didn't, but the link between the minimum wage and the discussion is weak.

I would disagree. It shows that there are always options, you just need to be creative and think out of the box.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
Or maybe because they just don't want a minimum wage, independently of EU immigrants.
Switzerland is already part of Schengen: if they didn't want EU immigrants and had the capability to be out of the EU market, Switzerland would pull out of Schengen. But they haven't and don't plan to in the near future ... too much business at stake ...

From a link I posted above:
"Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he said.

"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."

Secondly Schengen has nothing to do with business. Switzerland still has customs paperwork when doing business with EU, same as any EFTA country. Free trade thing is about not paying customs fees, not total "freedom".

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Why? Because it's got advanced manufactoring industry? Don't think so...
But it does have options. To trade with China, U.S., Russia, even India, Brasil, and other developing countries.

If things continue to evolve as they are right now in 100 Years Europe will be a poor holiday resort for the hard working Chinese and Indian workforce.
And only because we, Europeans, won't face the fact that world is changing and we are on the losing end.
Same could be said about the EU. If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:52:42 AM
Secondly Schengen has nothing to do with business. Switzerland still has customs paperwork when doing business with EU, same as any EFTA country. Free trade thing is about not paying customs fees, not total "freedom".

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:52:42 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Why? Because it's got advanced manufactoring industry? Don't think so...
But it does have options. To trade with China, U.S., Russia, even India, Brasil, and other developing countries.

You mean the UK (or any EU state) has no option to trade with China or the US or India or Brasil ?  :o

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:52:42 AM
If things continue to evolve as they are right now in 100 Years Europe will be a poor holiday resort for the hard working Chinese and Indian workforce.
And only because we, Europeans, won't face the fact that world is changing and we are on the losing end.

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:52:42 AM
Same could be said about the EU. If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:01:17 AM

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

:o So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
You mean the UK (or any EU state) has no option to trade with China or the US or India or Brasil ?  :o

No I'am talking about Switzerland, pay attention.  ;D The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me...  :-\

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:38:10 AM

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 04, 2016, 10:29:24 AM
If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Oh come on, people here ramble about CIA conspiracies, upside down stars and whatever and I get the "World Best Troll" ? Seems unfair :)

Hehe you do have me laughing today.  Just think of it like being called a geek.  Used by people thinking they are casting an insult whereas the truth is they  are raising that persons status considerably. I can't think of any words for conspiricists. No suggestions please.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:52:42 AM
If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

Yep and I still hope they take heed to stop any further dismantling and get back to the EU ethos. Better to be a Martyr to the cause and part of the solution than to live in denial.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:01:17 AM
And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

:o So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You're mixing up stuff man.

What the EU says is: if you want to trade with the EU with the same conditions as EU states, then you have to adopt this or that rule.
Each state is free to decline the offer of course, in which case a one-to-one deal is negotiated. Of course the conditions can't be the same.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM
The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

But it's wasted time to discuss this: we'll see how it ends soon.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

That's a prediction and not a fact. Let's see.
But even it the EU will be weaker than today (which I don' think), it would be easier to deal with China as the EU, instead of as France or Spain.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me...  :-\

I think we're better off without them because the don't like some fundamental EU principles, that's all.
And it's unfortunate: the UK is a major european nation, I'd much prefer them to be pro-EU and working from the inside to make it better. But, as we've seen, this is not possible at the moment so a split is inevitable.

Of course it doesn't mean the EU and the UK will be at war in 2 months (even if, commercially, it will be something fairly close to a war).

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:01:17 AM
And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

:o So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You're mixing up stuff man.

What the EU says is: if you want to trade with the EU with the same conditions as EU states, then you have to adopt this or that rule.
Each state is free to decline the offer of course, in which case a one-to-one deal is negotiated. Of course the conditions can't be the same.

You're the one tying free trading with free movement, not me :P Negotiation implies "barganing" not implying your will to the other party right?

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM
The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

But it's wasted time to discuss this: we'll see how it ends soon.

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/ (http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/)
With Germany being half of it.
If you click Deficits an even more interesting story unfolds. I am sure the first 4 countries would easily give up exports to Switzerland in the name of "european spirit"  ;D
So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

Some interesting statistics if you take a look at UK as well (to stay somewhat on topic)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/ (http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/)
About 35% of UK exports are with EU, on the other hand 7 out of top 10 countries that have more export then import with UK are members of EU.
I don't think it's in EU's best interest to break free trade contracts with UK.  ;D

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
That's a prediction and not a fact. Let's see.
But even it the EU will be weaker than today (which I don' think), it would be easier to deal with China as the EU, instead of as France or Spain.

In terms of size, population and finacial power it will certainly be weaker. Unless you know another european-ish country that could replace UK?
Turkey? Israel? Maghreb countries? What about civil rights? Or are we going to look away?

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 11:18:02 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:15:19 AM
If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me...  :-\

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
I think we're better off without them because the don't like some fundamental EU principles, that's all.
And it's unfortunate: the UK is a major european nation, I'd much prefer them to be pro-EU and working from the inside to make it better. But, as we've seen, this is not possible at the moment so a split is inevitable.

Of course it doesn't mean the EU and the UK will be at war in 2 months (even if, commercially, it will be something fairly close to a war).

I think so too, we'll replace them with Tunisia, Marocco and Israel. Those are some excellent examples of fundamental EU principles.  8)

Bozo, the EU tries to put its principles forward. Countries that do not want to adhere can stay out.
For trade negotiations the EU is ok to strike a more favorable deal if some of its principles are accepted and applied. It's very straightforward.

You think CH and UK are strong enough to bend that ? Good, let's see. For CH at least we should know soon.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 12:47:13 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/ (http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/)

No. On your own link it says "From a continental perspective, 44.8% of Switzerland's total exports by value in 2015 were delivered to other European trade partners."

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 12:47:13 PM
So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

No. I'm implying that the Eu is telling CH right now that if CH withdraws the agreement on free movement of people, the EU will withdraw the favorable commercial conditions put in place with CH.
Actually it's not me implying it, it has been declared very clearly by the relevant people involved.

On the CH subject, this is pre-Brexit: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615604 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615604)

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 01:20:23 PM
Bozo, the EU tries to put its principles forward. Countries that do not want to adhere can stay out.
For trade negotiations the EU is ok to strike a more favorable deal if some of its principles are accepted and applied. It's very straightforward.

You think CH and UK are strong enough to bend that ? Good, let's see. For CH at least we should know soon.

By putting it's principles forward you mean strike the fear of God if anyone else thinks of doing what UK just did?  ;D
When you "give" something to someone and later ask for it back, to me it shows weakness not principles.

Yes I do belive nothing will change in the long run. UK will join EFTA and carry on doing business with EU just like CH. Even more they wont be forced to pour money into development funds like CH because UK imports from EU are far greater then CH. And a lack of those would hurt EU far more then in case of CH.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 12:47:13 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/ (http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/)

No. On your own link it says "From a continental perspective, 44.8% of Switzerland's total exports by value in 2015 were delivered to other European trade partners."[/quote]

EFTA and CEFTA countries are also parts of Europe, just not EU. 

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 12:47:13 PM
So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

No. I'm implying that the Eu is telling CH right now that if CH withdraws the agreement on free movement of people, the EU will withdraw the favorable commercial conditions put in place with CH.
Actually it's not me implying it, it has been declared very clearly by the relevant people involved.
[/quote]

Ok, but there is still the non minimum wage thing. What about that? They may want our best doctors, scientists and whatever, but would you want to go work there for nothing? Because they may offer you exactly that...

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 03:01:40 PM
By putting it's principles forward you mean strike the fear of God if anyone else thinks of doing what UK just did?  ;D
When you "give" something to someone and later ask for it back, to me it shows weakness not principles.

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 03:01:40 PM
Ok, but there is still the non minimum wage thing. What about that? They may want our best doctors, scientists and whatever, but would you want to go work there for nothing? Because they may offer you exactly that...

The min wage thing is a purely CH-internal discussion, the EU has not bearing on that. So it's up to the CH people to decide.
If CH pays 1CHF per heart transplant, no heart surgeon will go there. Up to them to strike the good balance between how many heart surgeons they need and how much they want to pay for them.

I can tell you first hand that people in CH universities (where my wife still works occasionally, we've spent a year there) are *very* concerned about what will happen, because they can see beyond trade deals, unlike others.

Where are the conspiracy theory people when you need them ?

Rumours flew about Murdoch not liking BoJo and bam, BoJo down.

Now Rupert throws a grader party and next morning bam, Nigel down: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3673280/Rupert-Murdoch-Liam-Fox-Nigel-Farage-Union-Flag-shoes-garden-party-held-billionaire-Evgeny-Lebedev-Lily-Allen-capture-thing-Twitter.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3673280/Rupert-Murdoch-Liam-Fox-Nigel-Farage-Union-Flag-shoes-garden-party-held-billionaire-Evgeny-Lebedev-Lily-Allen-capture-thing-Twitter.html)

Let me guess, Murdoch works for the CIA ? :)

[disclaimer: I don't care about miss Allen, wouldn't be able to cite a single song, if singing is what she still does]

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Both sides signed agreements that work both ways. Both EU goods and Swiss goods have same treatmant. It's not one sided as you are trying to present it.
Even more important, more goods come to CH then CH exports to EU.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM
The min wage thing is a purely CH-internal discussion, the EU has not bearing on that. So it's up to the CH people to decide.
If CH pays 1CHF per heart transplant, no heart surgeon will go there. Up to them to strike the good balance between how many heart surgeons they need and how much they want to pay for them.

So you don't agree that min wage thing is a filter to keep unwanted migrants out?

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM
I can tell you first hand that people in CH universities (where my wife still works occasionally, we've spent a year there) are *very* concerned about what will happen, because they can see beyond trade deals, unlike others.

I can tell you first hand that so far the only place I was labeled as a "Slav not to be trusted" is ...drumrool... Switzerland. So Iam not disillusioned about world. I am just trying to say the way things really are, and not idealize any system. Regardless if it's called EU or non EU.
Do you like me more now then you did 3 years ago when I wasn't in the EU?

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 08:47:20 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 03:50:51 PM

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Both sides signed agreements that work both ways. Both EU goods and Swiss goods have same treatmant. It's not one sided as you are trying to present it.
Even more important, more goods come to CH then CH exports to EU.

It doesn't matter: the EU is ready to put its side of the deal on the table. Is Switzerland ? Maybe yes, maybe no. We'll see.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 08:47:20 PM
So you don't agree that min wage thing is a filter to keep unwanted migrants out?

I don't agree.  In CH, even without the minimum wage a bus driver earns more than a university professor in France.
According to your reasoning CH should be already invaded by immigrants seeking jobs there.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 08:47:20 PM
I can tell you first hand that so far the only place I was labeled as a "Slav not to be trusted" is ...drumrool... Switzerland.

Idiots exist in every country. If you pass by France (or Italy), I can surely put you in touch with people that share the same opinion about you: funny enough, they are mostly against Europe ...

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 08:47:20 PM
Do you like me more now then you did 3 years ago when I wasn't in the EU?

I like you the same, but I'm glad that your country has decided to join the european project.

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 09:12:30 PM
I like you the same, but I'm glad that your country has decided to join the european project.

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

See I am not. Not for any emotional reasons, just purely pragmatic.
I don't know anyone, still living here, who profited from our EU membership. Not one single person or small/family business.
Secondly, 3-4 years ago when we had the referendum to join any form of criticism or even a call for a public debate was ridiculed by mainstream media and political parties. Getting in at any cost was a national goal. It reminded me of Orwell's 1984.  ;D
As a result only about 30% of voters bothered to vote in a all time low turnout. And still here we are. In the same problems we were 3 years ago. Only a little bit poorer.
So what exactly does EU offer that couldn't be done without it? What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?
Do we still live in an age of dogmatic idols? 

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:37:18 PM
What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?

By who ?

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 09:12:30 PM

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result.  ::)

Hawk.

lol, just heard the latest catch word this morning    -     brexodus      ;D

Quote from: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 11:06:24 PM
Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result.  ::)

Sounds like you accuse others of doom mongering by doom mongering a fair bit yourself ...
But it's fine I guess, as you're with the (quote) "brave and courageous ones" while the others are with the (quote) "weak minded fools".

In the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642)
There's no fear of business leaving the UK (brave ones don't trust the doom mongering), but let's cut corp taxes, just to be on the safe side ...
And this, of course, will benefit the common people a lot I guess.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 09:20:56 AM

Quote from: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 11:06:24 PM
Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result.  ::)

Sounds like you accuse others of doom mongering by doom mongering a fair bit yourself ...
But it's fine I guess, as you're with the (quote) "brave and courageous ones" while the others are with the (quote) "weak minded fools".

In the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642 (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642)
There's no fear of business leaving the UK (brave ones don't trust the doom mongering), but let's cut corp taxes, just to be on the safe side ...
And this, of course, will benefit the common people a lot I guess.

Just shows the differing points of view on show here Max..... I wouldn't consider the death of the EU system as it is now doom-mongering(you obviously would consider it a bad thing?)..... If you find a cancer(EU Commission) among good nations then you cut it out, right? :)

Lol..... You pick probably the only story the news has covered in the last two week about a questionable positive of leaving the EU..... Can you show me three? No, I will be kind to you... Show me just 2 more positive stories from the BBC, and I bet you cannot find them, which just goes to prove my point.  :)

When you can show me a full day of news-clips talking about the positives of leaving the EU against just maybe at best one or 2 clips during the day of negatives then I will stop talking about the doom-mongers, because there is no doubt at all that the news/media is totally bias towards those that support leaving the EU right now.... I can't turn on any news or talk shows without them talking down leaving the EU and talking about EU leave voters as if they are some-kind of delinquent species who aren't educated enough to realise what they have done to the UK and EU. That is why I label remain voters as doom-mongers Max.... but I guess we'll all just have to wait a few good years to see what the result of leaving the EU will actually be, right.  ;) 8)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 09:53:26 AM
Lol..... You pick probably the only story the news has covered in the last two week about a questionable positive of leaving the EU..... Can you show me three? No, I will be kind to you... Show me just 2 more positive stories from the BBC, and I bet you cannot find them, which just goes to prove my point.  :)

Because you think cutting corp taxes is positive for you ?  :o

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 10:01:37 AM

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 09:53:26 AM
Lol..... You pick probably the only story the news has covered in the last two week about a questionable positive of leaving the EU..... Can you show me three? No, I will be kind to you... Show me just 2 more positive stories from the BBC, and I bet you cannot find them, which just goes to prove my point.  :)

Because you think cutting corp taxes is positive for you ?  :o

For sure IF he did that then it would be more attractive for business to invest in the UK... I'm surprised you cannot see that Max.  :)

Hawk.

Thought this might titillate and amuse mainstream media junkie Maximilian this morning..  ;)

Operation Mockingbird in action?

https://www.youtube.com/v/sGqi-k213eE

grT

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 04, 2016, 10:45:15 PM

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 04, 2016, 10:37:18 PM
What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?

By who ?

So from all that I wrote, only this troubles you???!

Primarily media, then analysts, PR campaigns (spin doctors), etc...

Can see the similar thing happening now in UK.
For example, reading Croatian media a month ago Boris Johnson was a former mayor of London. Today he's a former mayor of London and an idiot. Period.
Don't know anything about him, but apparently he became an idiot in the last month or so.

@BozoCRO: Believe me, Boris Johnson(Tory Party Politician) is not an idiot, he's a very skillfull politician hence his popularity here in the UK. The fact that he has just been stabbed in the back by his fellow Tory MP's which has caused him to step back from his ambitions for a while doesn't change that. What it does say is that in politics it's probably the person you trust most that you have got to be very mindful of.
And for reference - I'm certainly no Tory Party supporter.  :P

@grt: Just goes to confirm to me my suspicions that all journalists these days are trained/brain-washed to sensationalise and see/report only negatives for news stories...... Good news stories tend to be almost non-existent and even when reported are regarded as news show fillers rather than serious news items.

I'm convinced there is a huge market out there for good and positive news programs if they'd only let themselves see it.  :)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 10:09:37 AM
For sure IF he did that then it would be more attractive for business to invest in the UK... I'm surprised you cannot see that Max.  :)

I can see that all good. What you can't see (and somehow I'm not surprised) is that if countries start a race to cut corporate taxes, the ones that will suffer from it are the common people (you, me).
Today you have a bunch of corporations working in the UK, they pay 20%. Starting tomorrow, assuming they stay, they will pay 15%. Who do you think will gain from that ? And who will lose from that ?

And before you go with the argument "if we don't lower it to 15% then we lose it all, so better to lose 5% than 20%", yes, that's true.
But then don't be surprised if other countries (or the EU) retaliate (economically I mean). A market place has rules: if you disregard the rules, the others will do the same with you.

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 10:18:00 AM
So from all that I wrote, only this troubles you???!

The rest you wrote is simply that you don't believe in anything the EU has done or will ever do. Totally your right, but not a lot I can do about that.
I can only advise to get on a plane (quickly) and settle in the UK. I'm sure they will welcome you all right. Maybe :)

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 10:18:00 AM
For example, reading Croatian media a month ago Boris Johnson was a former mayor of London. Today he's a former mayor of London and an idiot. Period.
Don't know anything about him, but apparently he became an idiot in the last month or so.

He's not an idiot (strict sense), of course. But he spectacularly promised 350 millions GBP/week to be used for the NHS instead of being "given" to the EU: the number was utterly wrong, the promise totally impossible to materialize (and he knew both things very well) and after his camp won, he stepped down from everything. Maybe that contributed a bit in tarnishing his image ...

What better way to capture all the morons votes?? Stick some appealing half-truths on a bus (cos its pretty big) and reel them in with no EU fishing quotas attached. Pretty clever if you can live with it and Boris seems to be able to. I don't think having a conscience is allowed to be a politician.

I don't want any of these people in. Not one of them. Too far removed from the country they are supposedly supporting. When was the last time they tried to get a job, a hospital appointment, a dentist appointment, a house paid for with a mortgage. Like the Queen they probably think fresh air smells of Gloss paint.

I want to give my vote to Joe Bloggs of number 10 Average Street. :D Where are you Joe?

Quote from: Napalm Nick on July 05, 2016, 11:29:36 AM
I don't think having a conscience is allowed to be a politician.

That's one of today's big problems in my opinion: it is allowed, it's just not encouraged enough by voters.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 11:06:56 AM

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 10:18:00 AM
So from all that I wrote, only this troubles you???!

The rest you wrote is simply that you don't believe in anything the EU has done or will ever do. Totally your right, but not a lot I can do about that.
I can only advise to get on a plane (quickly) and settle in the UK. I'm sure they will welcome you all right. Maybe :)

You just keep missing the point. Still not entirely sure is it on purpose. I honestly don't care under what government I live as long as it means progress for the whole society.
I don't have love or hate for EU, just disappointment.

I'm afraid that I'am not wlecomed yet in most of EU. Just Germany and Ireland so far. Not European enough for the rest I guess.  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 11:06:56 AM

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 10:18:00 AM
For example, reading Croatian media a month ago Boris Johnson was a former mayor of London. Today he's a former mayor of London and an idiot. Period.
Don't know anything about him, but apparently he became an idiot in the last month or so.

He's not an idiot (strict sense), of course. But he spectacularly promised 350 millions GBP/week to be used for the NHS instead of being "given" to the EU: the number was utterly wrong, the promise totally impossible to materialize (and he knew both things very well) and after his camp won, he stepped down from everything. Maybe that contributed a bit in tarnishing his image ...

Ok, see the point. A bit rude, but ok.
So tell me when a representative of the EU, can't remember which one, promises hundreds of millions € from EU development funds to my country and we end up with a few million, why isn't he labeled as an idiot by the media?
Doesn't seem objective, or fair. Which should be the foundation of free (european) media. 

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 11:06:56 AM

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 10:09:37 AM
For sure IF he did that then it would be more attractive for business to invest in the UK... I'm surprised you cannot see that Max.  :)

I can see that all good. What you can't see (and somehow I'm not surprised) is that if countries start a race to cut corporate taxes, the ones that will suffer from it are the common people (you, me).
Today you have a bunch of corporations working in the UK, they pay 20%. Starting tomorrow, assuming they stay, they will pay 15%. Who do you think will gain from that ? And who will lose from that ?

And before you go with the argument "if we don't lower it to 15% then we lose it all, so better to lose 5% than 20%", yes, that's true.
But then don't be surprised if other countries (or the EU) retaliate (economically I mean). A market place has rules: if you disregard the rules, the others will do the same with you.

Yes of course I realise that other markets/countries could choose to follow suit, but from the current rates of the main EU countries Corp Tax then I doubt that very much Max or it would've already been the case because the UK's Corp Tax rate is already very low compared to countries such as Germany and France, so that blows that theory out of the water big time.

You can put up arguments anyway you like to try and shoot another persons reasoning down Max, but truth is no one knows the response of such actions until there are acted upon.... So you'd rather advocate better lay with the devil you know than go for change, right Max?  Typical EU supporter, and why we shouldn't listen to remainers reasonings or have an EU remain supporter as Prime Minister.... Brain-washed Max, you've been brain-washed mate! Lol! :P  ;D

Hawk.

Ah well, looks to be Hungary to be next in line to defy the EU

'Hungary will hold a referendum on October 2 on troubled EU plans to relocate migrants among member states, a scheme fiercely opposed by right-wing Prime Minister Viktor Orban, the president said Tuesday.'

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 11:42:30 AM
I'm afraid that I'am not wlecomed yet in most of EU. Just Germany and Ireland so far. Not European enough for the rest I guess.  ;)

And don't you think this is something the EU tries to change ?
Don't you think that the EU's "free movement of people" principle is something that also tries to fight against the stupid behavior of some ?

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 05, 2016, 11:42:30 AM
So tell me when a representative of the EU, can't remember which one, promises hundreds of millions € from EU development funds to my country and we end up with a few million, why isn't he labeled as an idiot by the media?

I can't say, without the details. You may be right, maybe the media took sides (which is bad but inevitable).
But it doesn't change a lot with respect to the judgement on BJ.

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 11:57:34 AM
Brain-washed Max, you've been brain-washed mate! Lol! :P  ;D

Yawn, OK. Get out, close your borders and all your problems are gone instantly. By the way, if you can move your border from Calais back to the UK, that would be much appreciated here in France. You want to take control of your immigration, no ? So let's start putting your border in the UK instead of France. Unsurprisingly, many leaders here in France are already asking to review the "Le Touquet" agreement ... I'm sure you'll say it's retaliation ...

Quote from: h106frp on July 05, 2016, 01:34:09 PM
'Hungary will hold a referendum on October 2 on troubled EU plans to relocate migrants among member states, a scheme fiercely opposed by right-wing Prime Minister Viktor Orban, the president said Tuesday.'

Interesting, but hardly a big surprise, from the man who said that [non-EU migrants relocation across EU countries] "could redraw Europe's cultural and religious identity" ... religious identity ?!  Yeah man, bring back the inquisition and make the world a better place.

Notice however the Hungarian referendum only concerns the relocation plan, not EU membership: Hungary seems to be OK to take some migrants, but they want to be in control of how many (instead of agreeing some general rules to be applied to any state in the EU). From that point of view, they are better than the UK: the UK simply opted out of the plan ... like in "Hey David, we have a bunch of dying migrants in IT and GR, wanna help ?" "No thanks. Let other states take care of them. Or let them just die in IT and GR."

Side note: how does a referendum in (less than) 3 months from now sound in terms of "surfing the emotional wave" ? :)

The problem at Calais is not with EU citizens and desperately needs solving by a body more like the UN.
Shifting huge volumes of illegal immigrants (with a small percentage of genuine refugees) across european states is not the answer to their home countries problems and is causing turmoil for everyone involved.

Quote from: h106frp on July 05, 2016, 03:14:17 PM
The problem at Calais is not with EU citizens and desperately needs solving by a body more like the UN.
Shifting huge volumes of illegal immigrants (with a small percentage of genuine refugees) across european states is not the answer to their home countries problems and is causing turmoil for everyone involved.

I may partially agree, but still: why is the UK border in France ?!

Do not know, but why cant France control its southern borders?

Quote from: h106frp on July 05, 2016, 04:06:55 PM
Do not know, but why cant France control its southern borders?

Because some migrants arrive with a truly terrible situation and only a soulless bureaucrat (and/or racist) could turn the back on them ?
Or maybe because the UK provides too much help on the subject to countries that need it (IT, GR, FR, ES) ?

At any rate, let's start afresh: the UK takes his border back and then we discuss who does what and see how good the UK is in controlling its southern border (when it's not in France).
At some point you'll have to start enjoying your independence.

More concrete: "3 UK commercial property funds suspend redemption" .
If it is unclear what that means, I suggest to google it and check if you have money tied in similar funds because in the end it's always the small fishes that pay the bill.
Of course if you have money in one of the 3 that have suspended, you can only cross fingers.

And no, I'm not rejoicing about the news because, as I said, I think that in the end it will be the ones at the bottom of the ladder that will pay the price of all that madness. And I'm sorry for them, no matter if they voted leave or stay.

And some extra doom mongering, just to be sure:

QuoteMichael Dougan, professor of European law at Liverpool University, also pointed out that any UK application to join Norway as a signatory to the European economic agreement – a means of maintaining access to the EU single market – could be vetoed by any single one of the remaining 27 EU member states, the four members of the European free trade area (EFTA) and the European parliament, meaning 31 different institutions or states could block the UK signing the EEA.

The EEA is seen by some as the best stopping off point for the UK, since it retains UK access to the EU single market, but all EEA members are required to apply the principle of the free movement of people.

The chances of the UK negotiating an exemption on free movement under the EU is sharply reduced if 30 different states and institutions could veto the agreement. Dougan said only armchair lawyers thought the EEA provided any flexibility on free movement of workers.

He added the legislative complexity of disentangling the UK from the EU will require a large surrender of power from parliament to executive. He also pointed out Britain would still be bound by the judgments of international courts under any serious international free trade agreement with other countries.

He said the UK would be bound by the rulings of an EFTA supervisory court, and these were part of international law, so making them binding on the UK.

He added: "In practice the scholarship from Norway and Iceland tells us there is not an enormous amount of difference from the effect of EEA law within those member states [and the effect of EU law in EU member states]."

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 02:40:36 PM

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 11:57:34 AM
Brain-washed Max, you've been brain-washed mate! Lol! :P  ;D

Yawn, OK. Get out, close your borders and all your problems are gone instantly. By the way, if you can move your border from Calais back to the UK, that would be much appreciated here in France. You want to take control of your immigration, no ? So let's start putting your border in the UK instead of France. Unsurprisingly, many leaders here in France are already asking to review the "Le Touquet" agreement ... I'm sure you'll say it's retaliation ...

H is right....
The French have a terrible record of controlling illegal immigrants entering their country. It's about time they started to take the problem seriously or we'll just dump them back were they came from(France).  :P

Hawk.

And if the reasons that draw them here are curtailed they will not want to leave the EU anyway.

The only people i see benefiting from open borders are criminals - its a noble idea but at the end of the day just folly.

Lol, wow some people have a a dull life..always seems to rain on them.

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 05:26:41 PM
It's about time they started to take the problem seriously or we'll just dump them back were they came from(France).  :P

Hawk.

what about humanity, equality and social thinking?

just try to imagine you were one of them coming from a state like Iraq, Syria or Tunisia.
wtf is wrong with these "europeans", for e.g. the hungarians, british and polish people?

my personal opinion:
kick everyone out of the EU who wouldnt work on the aforementioned things. small-minded and egoistic countrys!
those who shouts the loudest to close the borders for war refugees are the most unimportant (economical) countrys in the EU. why?

lets see how far they will come. poland for e.g.  would be the same country as 20 years ago if there would not have been the "bad" EU with its subsidy programms. and now they have a right goverment...
GB will rise import- and exportcosts only for their own people - on the other hand it is a good bad-example of how-not-to and i think the rest of the EU could learn a lot of the british behavior.

I believe it is France that is the country threatening to use these unfortunate souls as an economic and political weapon - not the UK.

Many of these migrants are from countries that are not at war i.e. they are not refugees and that is a big part of the current problem as even in the EU they do not qualify for the protection that refugee status would entitle them too. Why do you think so many abandon their identification on the shores of Turkey before attempting to enter the EU?

Quote from: JJS209Poland for e.g.  would be the same country as 20 years ago if there would not have been the "bad" EU with its subsidy programms. and now they have a right goverment...

Poland at this moment cannot have their own government, even elected in a democratic way because the greatest loosers of the last election decided to accuse Polish government for "destroying the democracy". SRSLY?

70% of Polish newspapers/TV channels are controlled by German corporations like Ringier Axel Springer. Can you imagine that in Great Britain 70% of newspapers/TV channels are controlled by German corporation which have their own people and making a propaganda against UK? And we still have it, damned liberal propaganda from over 25 years of "freedom". And true conservatives are pushed on second plan because they want to make Poland more independent. They want to keep citizen's money in their wallets. But for liberals like PiS and PO, it's better to say "we'll give you a lot of money from EU" or "family 500+" (~112€ per month for every children under 18 years), without telling people that they have to pay more and greater taxes, and the government need to steal 150€ to give you 100€. No EU resolution about tax-free allowance in the Poland, where it's "only" 730€? (to compare, Netherland - 2100€)

I didn't vote for current ruling party (Right and Justice - PiS), but all EU observes didn't see what Citizen Platform (PO) made during 8 years; how many scandals with PO there were in Poland, how much people made a protest against the government. And the greatest traitor in the Poland, Donald Tusk, escaped before justice in Poland to Brussels for a hot seat in EU. And he knows that justice is waiting for him in the Poland.

Believe me or not - PiS and PO are the same parties, the differences between them are very small. But it's made as something great. People in the Poland are forgetting that they were going to make a collaboration in 2005 after PiS won an elections. And some people who were in PiS, are now in PO and vice versa. And people who don't change their views from 30 years (like Janusz Korwin-Mikke) and tell the truth about current (and previous) government, are called "fascists".

And now, after Brexit, we are called "cockroaches". Because we would also vote for Brexit. Because we would also vote for "Polexit". Because "Polish cockroaches" are bad, but immigrants from Asia/Africa are cool.

PS: I don't have anything against Germans, Brits and anybody else on this forum, hope we can have a good relationship, no matter about our nationalities and no matter about current policy.

Quote from: JJS209 on July 06, 2016, 03:11:09 PM

Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 05:26:41 PM
It's about time they started to take the problem seriously or we'll just dump them back were they came from(France).  :P

Hawk.

what about humanity, equality and social thinking?

just try to imagine you were one of them coming from a state like Iraq, Syria or Tunisia.
wtf is wrong with these "europeans", for e.g. the hungarians, british and polish people?

my personal opinion:
kick everyone out of the EU who wouldnt work on the aforementioned things. small-minded and egoistic countrys!
those who shouts the loudest to close the borders for war refugees are the most unimportant (economical) countrys in the EU. why?

lets see how far they will come. poland for e.g.  would be the same country as 20 years ago if there would not have been the "bad" EU with its subsidy programms. and now they have a right goverment...
GB will rise import- and exportcosts only for their own people - on the other hand it is a good bad-example of how-not-to and i think the rest of the EU could learn a lot of the british behavior.

As far as my remark you quoted.... the last part about dumping them back in France was just me being flippant. Obviously that wouldn't happen without consequences for the UK so.... Lol  ;D

But countries can only do so much. They cannot help everyone so were do they start to draw the line, and how and when? You tell me?

But as the old saying goes..... "Charity begins at home". There's nothing more truer than that.  :)

Hawk.

France isn't threatening anything. France has made it very clear they respect the UK decision of leaving: nobody is trying to scare you back in.
Rediscussing the Touquet agreement is something that makes instant sense as soon as the UK fires art50, so that's what will happen.

Only a fool could have swallowed the promise "Don't worry, we get out of the EU but everything currently in place will stay".

You think you can deal better with irregular immigrants ? I'm eager to see that, show us.
It's a tad easier to do it when you only have one tiny border to watch and you delegate the responsibility of it on others ...

Quote from: Gzehoo on July 06, 2016, 04:40:03 PM
And now, after Brexit, we are called "cockroaches". Because we would also vote for Brexit. Because we would also vote for "Polexit". Because "Polish cockroaches" are bad, but immigrants from Asia/Africa are cool.

Do you remember who was really scared about Polish immigration when Poland joined the EU ? The ones making jokes about Polish plumbers invading France and the UK ?
The very ones that are against Europe ... the UK and FR "nationalists" ...

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 06, 2016, 04:54:25 PM

Quote from: Gzehoo on July 06, 2016, 04:40:03 PM
And now, after Brexit, we are called "cockroaches". Because we would also vote for Brexit. Because we would also vote for "Polexit". Because "Polish cockroaches" are bad, but immigrants from Asia/Africa are cool.

Do you remember who was really scared about Polish immigration when Poland joined the EU ? The ones making jokes about Polish plumbers invading France and the UK ?
The very ones that are against Europe ... the UK and FR "nationalists" ...

Seeing as the UK Nationalists are in a very small minority, and probably the same in France too, then there's nothing to worry about is there.  :P

Hawk.

So the only thing still holding it together is business interests?

Quote from: BozoCRO on July 06, 2016, 05:23:22 PM
So the only thing still holding it together is business interests?

For some member (and ex-member) states, unfortunately yes. That's disappointing.

Strangely, some of the most vocal warnings locally came from the established Polish community, and it was also one of the first casualties with their community disappearing and social club which was enjoyed by many closing down to be replaced with a small high density housing (flats) project.
I knew many from school and grew up with them, they were great family people and my first encounter with people who had happily integrated with an existing society but managed to enjoy their cultural identity - very different to what has happened with the economic (business driven) migrations experienced in the last few years.

Which is more or less what I've seen here in FR: french plumbers did not disappear as a consequence of Polish being allowed to come to France.
Really, I don't see how much of a trouble free EU people movement is.