PiBoSo Official Forum

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 05:39:27 AM

Title: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 05:39:27 AM
Hi, everyone. I'm developing some content that I hope to add in for WRS/GPB, and I'm wondering if any of you have advice for it. Currently, and in the knowledge of KRP's kerbs, the handling is quite unstable on fully modeled kerbs. However, since karts have no suspension, it makes me wonder if the vehicles with suspension work in the same way. I have 3 types of kerbs that are commonly used on racing circuits. The first (far left) is what is found at circuits like Catalunya, Monza, etc. It's a saw-toothed kerb that recesses into the ground, rather than protruding. I have heard that these kerbs are preferred by real riders. The next two are what are seen at Abu Dhabi, the one in the middle being used as an exit kerb while the one on the far right is used on the inside edge. What are your opinions on these types of kerbs, and what  works best for the sims? The circuits are fantasy circuits, so the input is mostly to get an optimal design that is user-friendly. Also, if any of you have a type of kerb that works well, would you mind sharing the info?

Thanks!
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on July 04, 2016, 02:43:34 PM
None of the toohed kerbs will work with GPB, i mean you will crash once u touch them.

Im doing a single triangled shape that is 5cm height in the outside part and 0 height where it touches the asphalt, works very well.

Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 02:45:18 PM
What about outside? In KRP, we had a track where the far left kerb was used for the exit - it worked well as an exit kerb. Will that type of design (only used on the outside) work? or is it too disruptive to the handling?
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on July 04, 2016, 02:50:55 PM
Is the protruding mesh what makes the bikes crash, every single protruding edge will make you crash if the wheels touch it when leaning.
Even a non smoothed track surface will do the same.

They look very nice indeed, but won't be fun touching them when riding.
You could see this in Mugello track (just an example), pick a bike and have a little ride over those kerbs, you will figure out what work or not  ;)
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 02:53:24 PM
Ok  ;) Thanks for the advice. Might put a transparent layer over the outside kerbs - it keeps the looks, with a flat plane on top - I'll give Mugello a try
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on July 04, 2016, 03:03:17 PM
Quote from: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 02:53:24 PM
Ok  ;) Thanks for the advice. Might put a transparent layer over the outside kerbs - it keeps the looks, with a flat plane on top - I'll give Mugello a try

Not a bad idea, don't forget to name that layer TRKKERB to get a bit lower grip and kerb sound  :)
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 04, 2016, 03:04:22 PM
Did that for a few KRP tracks - thanks for the advice!
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: BOBR6 84 on July 04, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
What track is it warlock??  :) and ooohhh a 600  8)
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
Makes me wonder if the tyre model is detailed enough in GPB to cope with the type of surfaces that ribbed kerbs present to a motorcycle? I haven't a clue how detailed it is, but certainly the tyres don't react as they should do on the more exaggerated ribbed kerbs designed more for cars than a motorcycle....... But I'd also add that most kerbs I've seen modelled certainly seem to me to be way over-scale in the height of the actual kerb ribs which certainly won't help a bike to be stable when the tyre rides over them. What do you guys think?

But I've done some kerb tests with the kerbs designs from Assen and I've modelled them to scale and they do seem to ride well for bikes, so.....

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: LauZzZn on July 04, 2016, 06:53:12 PM
I absolutely agree with you.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on July 04, 2016, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 04, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
What track is it warlock??  :) and ooohhh a 600  8)

Is a fantasy one i'm working on to learn all this stuff , will take a long time doing it from scratch    :)

Quote from: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
Makes me wonder if the tyre model is detailed enough in GPB to cope with the type of surfaces that ribbed kerbs present to a motorcycle? I haven't a clue how detailed it is, but certainly the tyres don't react as they should do on the more exaggerated ribbed kerbs designed more for cars than a motorcycle....... But I'd also add that most kerbs I've seen modelled certainly seem to me to be way over-scale in the height of the actual kerb ribs which certainly won't help a bike to be stable when the tyre rides over them. What do you guys think?

But I've done some kerb tests with the kerbs designs from Assen and I've modelled them to scale and they do see to ride well for bikes, so.....

Hawk.

Agree and only Piboso can put some light on this. We see every day how a single poly edge on the track surface makes the bike crash, on ribbed kerbs can only be worse.

Dont know if the tyre go over the edges assuming is an 1mm grip pad so you lose all grip, or the wheel just jump on them and loses contact with the asphalt.

In both cases maybe the tyre is not deforming enough , who knows, im just thinking out loud.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: Warlock on July 04, 2016, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 04, 2016, 04:52:19 PM
What track is it warlock??  :) and ooohhh a 600  8)

Is a fantasy one i'm working on to learn all this stuff , will take a long time doing it from scratch    :)

Quote from: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
Makes me wonder if the tyre model is detailed enough in GPB to cope with the type of surfaces that ribbed kerbs present to a motorcycle? I haven't a clue how detailed it is, but certainly the tyres don't react as they should do on the more exaggerated ribbed kerbs designed more for cars than a motorcycle....... But I'd also add that most kerbs I've seen modelled certainly seem to me to be way over-scale in the height of the actual kerb ribs which certainly won't help a bike to be stable when the tyre rides over them. What do you guys think?

But I've done some kerb tests with the kerbs designs from Assen and I've modelled them to scale and they do see to ride well for bikes, so.....

Hawk.

Agree and only Piboso can put some light on this. We see every day how a single poly edge on the track surface makes the bike crash, on ribbed kerbs can only be worse.

Dont know if the tyre go over the edges assuming is an 1mm grip pad so you lose all grip, or the wheel just jump on them and loses contact with the asphalt.

In both cases maybe the tyre is not deforming enough , who knows, im just thinking out loud.

That's exactly what I think too mate.  ;)

Maybe someone could tell us if the tyre model does actually include calculations for tyre deformation and the altered grip and handling characteristics that would come from that?  :)

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 05, 2016, 12:20:32 AM
I think that's true - height is probably the biggest difference with those types of kerbs. I'll test around with it! I'm terrible driving in GPB, so things are probably going to be more on the cautious side.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 07:17:44 AM
Simulating properly the trye-kerb contact is a monster of a task. Usually you have only one contact patch, but on a "ribbed kerb" (don't know if that's the actual terminology) you can have more contact patches.
Also, tyre deformation is very local when you hit the edge of the kerb.

First sight, this level of detail is out of reach.

If people really wan to test stuff out, you could just create a long straight with kerb instead of flat asphalt and see already how the bike handles when riding on it straight, not leaning.

But just looking at a few random images, the kerbs seems to be much less saw-toothed in real motogp tracks then what we sometimes see in GPB tracks: https://www.google.fr/search?q=motogp+kerbs&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN3OG149vNAhXKOxoKHSufAqYQsAQINg (https://www.google.fr/search?q=motogp+kerbs&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN3OG149vNAhXKOxoKHSufAqYQsAQINg)
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 10:07:08 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 07:17:44 AM

But just looking at a few random images, the kerbs seems to be much less saw-toothed in real motogp tracks then what we sometimes see in GPB tracks: https://www.google.fr/search?q=motogp+kerbs&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN3OG149vNAhXKOxoKHSufAqYQsAQINg (https://www.google.fr/search?q=motogp+kerbs&espv=2&biw=1920&bih=993&site=webhp&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjN3OG149vNAhXKOxoKHSufAqYQsAQINg)

Hence I did this quite a while ago....
Quote from: Hawk on July 04, 2016, 06:40:20 PM
But I've done some kerb tests with the kerbs designs from Assen and I've modelled them to scale and they do seem to ride well for bikes, so.....

Hawk.

But still the bike doesn't seem to handle as it should on any ribbed type kerbs and I think that is maybe because of the lack of detail in the tyre deformity model?

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 10:07:08 AM
But still the bike doesn't seem to handle as it should on any ribbed type kerbs and I think that is maybe because of the lack of detail in the tyre deformity model?
Surely. The problem is that the solution for that may be very complex.

Unless Piboso plans to work on the issue, I'd advise to stick to "flat" kerbs (non ribbed).
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 12:12:17 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 10:31:04 AM
Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 10:07:08 AM
But still the bike doesn't seem to handle as it should on any ribbed type kerbs and I think that is maybe because of the lack of detail in the tyre deformity model?
Surely. The problem is that the solution for that may be very complex.

Unless Piboso plans to work on the issue, I'd advise to stick to "flat" kerbs (non ribbed).

Oh indeed I agree it probably would be a very complex issue to sort out, but this is a simulation right? A word and meaning that Piboso himself supports big time, so even though it maybe complex it should be simulated properly to get the correct reactions when tyres travel over ribbed kerbs.... If rfactor can put a high detail tyres model into their sim then I'm sure Piboso is well capable of doing the same type of thing, though the complexity of a bike tyre in such situations is probably 10X as complex I don't know? But I'd say yes! Go for it Pib!  ;D

Besides, it's detail like that, that makes the difference between being a great sim and a run of the mill sim.... Surely a great sim is the thing to aim for.  :)

Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 12:12:17 PM
Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

I don't see how using flat kerbs is any different from what you do every time: smoothing tracks and creating NDS tracks ... should I point you towards Milestone's games ?

Also, keep in mind that extra complexity sometimes comes at a price for modders too: take for example the new rear suspension; is there anybody that managed to actually use it ? I don't think so.

Anyway, I'd be with you if GPB was functioning fine right now. But as it clearly isn't, I'd much prefer key pain points to be worked on before ribbed kerbs.
Especially as the changes necessary to handle properly ribbed kerbs are likely very important (i.e. they could take a lot of time).
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on July 05, 2016, 01:39:16 PM
Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 12:12:17 PM
If rfactor can put a high detail tyres model into their sim then I'm sure Piboso is well capable of doing the same type of thing, though the complexity of a bike tyre in such situations is probably 10X as complex I don't know? But I'd say yes! Go for it Pib!  ;D


Probably you would need a NASA microprocessor to play GPB   ;D  to simulate such a detailed tyre deformation.

These kerbs are usually modeled with a single edge to keep it low poly, but we haven't tried a more detailed kerb edge as far as i know. Maybe a bit more beveled poly can help...  it will have quite a hit in polycount for sure, but....who knows
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 01:23:41 PM
Quote from: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 12:12:17 PM
Advising to stick to flat kerbs is as good as saying lets put in any data that works into the bikes physics instead of real data.... Yes you'll get apparently good results, but those results will never have all those subtle differences and depth in handling and feel that you get from using real world data and modelling in a sim; you'd might as well tell people to stick to milestone games.  :P

I don't see how using flat kerbs is any different from what you do every time: smoothing tracks and creating NDS tracks ... should I point you towards Milestone's games ?

Also, keep in mind that extra complexity sometimes comes at a price for modders too: take for example the new rear suspension; is there anybody that managed to actually use it ? I don't think so.

Anyway, I'd be with you if GPB was functioning fine right now. But as it clearly isn't, I'd much prefer key pain points to be worked on before ribbed kerbs.
Especially as the changes necessary to handle properly ribbed kerbs are likely very important (i.e. they could take a lot of time).


Just to correct you Max and anyone else who presumes what I do with tracks: I DO NOT SMOOTH TRACKS and never have done.  ::)
I replace badly created track topology and modelling and then only with track surfaces up to now. That's apart from the odd track conversion that I've done for people who ask me to do it, but that's not mainly my modelling work anyway, it's mainly from the original authors. :P ::)
The lie of the track is exactly the same as the one I replace, no difference at all. The only difference is that the toplogy is good for the use it's designed for. Any bumps in the old tracks are not design, they are bad modelling practices, so the fact that those bad bumps are not there anymore after I rebuild the track surfaces isn't due to me smoothing anything, I just rebuild the track surfaces correctly. Hope that finally gets through not just to you Max but to everyone else who keeps saying from time to time that I smooth the track surfaces... I don't.  ::)

As far as creating NDS version tracks; you know full well the reason NDS tracks are used so I find that a very strange thing you say about that Max..... You getting old mate? Lol   ;D

Plus you know full well that if track authors start to build flat kerb surfaces into their tracks then they are not then going to go back and put in the very much harder and longer work to build realistic kerbs to scale at different parts of the tracks to replace those later, so better Piboso sort out this problem if it is that problem than track modellers just building flat kerb surfaces that will never get replaced with realistic ones in future.

Dynamic tracks are already there and waiting for when Piboso sorts that problem out so that is not a problem; NDS tracks are and have always been just a temporary solution to a long standing problem and you know that too.

So yeah... Big difference between just building in flat kerb surfaces instead of sorting out the root issue in GPB so we can enjoy the real reactions and feel in handling when a rider uses the kerbs.


Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 08:29:19 PM
NDS is compromise. Flat kerbs are a compromise.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 05, 2016, 09:20:48 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 05, 2016, 08:29:19 PM
NDS is compromise. Flat kerbs are a compromise.

Too simplistic to just say flat kerbs are a compromise the same as NDS..... If you cannot see the difference without taking things out of context then we'll just agree to disagree.  ;) 8)

As we usually do anyway. Lol!  ;D 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 06, 2016, 01:20:07 AM
NDS = No Dynamic Surface? Sorry for not knowing, but what's the problem with dynamic surfaces in GPB? I am going to put out two versions - with saw-toothed kerbs and one with all flat kerbs. It's not a pain if I add them in from the start, so might as well put in the effort. Not many people like fantasy tracks in KRP, so I don't think many of the GPB/WRS community will like them, just the trend that seems to be happening. Any trackmaking rules I need to look for (aside from the basics) to integrate the track into GPB?
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: HornetMaX on July 06, 2016, 07:08:25 AM
After a bunch of tests, it seems that racing online on a track with Dynamic Surface leads to more troubles (client crashing, server going nuts) than when racing online on a track without dynamic surface.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Hawk on July 06, 2016, 11:23:59 AM
Quote from: Corrie on July 06, 2016, 01:20:07 AM
NDS = No Dynamic Surface? Sorry for not knowing, but what's the problem with dynamic surfaces in GPB? I am going to put out two versions - with saw-toothed kerbs and one with all flat kerbs. It's not a pain if I add them in from the start, so might as well put in the effort. Not many people like fantasy tracks in KRP, so I don't think many of the GPB/WRS community will like them, just the trend that seems to be happening. Any trackmaking rules I need to look for (aside from the basics) to integrate the track into GPB?

If your going to start making different version tracks for kerbs as well then you need to name the track appropriately for inclusion in the track download database so that people looking for your tracks know which one is NDS, Dynamic, Flat kerbs, and ribbed kerbs....
Look at the track name conventions for NDS and Dynamic tracks in the database to guide you, but as far as different real world track versions for flat kerbs are concerned, maybe just add a suffix of "_FK" at the end of the current track naming conventions, but all these different same version will be deleted from the database(real world tracks) once Piboso has fixed any issues that would mean proper tracks(Dynamic with real kerb designs) are stable in their use.

But to be honest with you, for real-world tracks I would just create the kerbs as they are in reality(to real scale) and lets wait for the update fix from Piboso.

For pure fantasy tracks then obviously you can design whatever you want for them but please stick to the track name suffix naming convention for NDS tracks, but with it being a fantasy track then no need to include a suffix for the kerb type design. Thank you.  ;) 8)

Hawk.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on July 31, 2016, 04:22:29 PM
These photos are an update on it all. It's progressed much more than the photos show - they are just elevation profiles (250% z-axis scale) and to show the main pit building.

The main pit building/garages


Elevation profile of car/bike track


Elevation profile of kart track

More updates to come.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Alby46 on August 15, 2016, 08:11:01 AM
that looks awesome! what track is that?
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on August 17, 2016, 12:35:27 AM
Both are fantasty tracks (the original layout was not created by me) Just a fun little project!
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Alby46 on August 17, 2016, 10:41:12 AM
nice!
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: doNico on August 17, 2016, 08:24:17 PM
just to push this aswell ... Sachsenring needs a big redo with the curbs ... they are slippery as hell

~doN
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Vini on August 17, 2016, 10:53:01 PM
every NC track.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on August 18, 2016, 12:55:48 AM
I missed those buildings pics Corrie, very very nice looking m8  8)
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on November 27, 2016, 04:03:13 AM
Quote from: Warlock on August 18, 2016, 12:55:48 AM
I missed those buildings pics Corrie, very very nice looking m8  8)
Thanks, Warlock! Rendered with nvidia iRay, but I'm confident it'll look great in game with graphics all the way up.

A bit of an update: got some stuff done with the Drag Strip.



Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on November 27, 2016, 04:30:59 AM
And an update on the kart circuit



Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Warlock on November 27, 2016, 06:01:07 AM
 Very nice m8 !

Good texturing and shaders will do the trick ingame
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Stout Johnson on November 27, 2016, 10:29:39 AM
Wow... looking impressive.
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on May 29, 2017, 08:03:43 PM
Yikes... I got the warning that the topic hadn't been posted in for 120 days. Sorry about the radio silence.

There have been some visitors to the track lately, along with some more detail to the track.



Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: tchemi on May 29, 2017, 09:59:22 PM
Don't know what is the graphic engine but... woa !!  :o
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Corrie on May 30, 2017, 02:55:24 PM
It is Nvidia iRay for 3ds Max. Hopefully the result in game will look close to that (I know how to do shaders and mapping for PiBoSo's rendering engine).
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Vini on November 23, 2017, 11:32:54 PM
@PiBoSo: Any thoughts on these issues? Is it really not possible to simulate the tyre's behaviour on kerbs properly, as Max suggested?

...If not, then question to the track creators: Will you reduce the kerb size on the affected tracks since it will be the only way to create a realistic simulation?
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: Luponius on December 20, 2017, 09:00:20 AM
So when can we hit that track?  ;D ;D
Title: Re: GPB/WRS Handling on Kerbs
Post by: connorhall70 on January 22, 2018, 10:38:32 AM
what happened to this?