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General => Custom hardware => Topic started by: August1 on October 12, 2016, 06:31:11 AM

Title: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: August1 on October 12, 2016, 06:31:11 AM
I don't know really know which subforum to put this in but playing GPbikes and the recent Ride 2 with a crappy gamepad with an annoying deadzone has got me thinking about this again and it's this:

Isn't it possible and relatively easy and cheap to simulate countersteering (i.e. the ONLY way bikes turn above ~10 mph) by mounting a handlebar to a non-rotating torque sensor (transducer?)? There would obviously be no feedback through the bars whatsoever but 90% of the time when you're riding on the streets, there's little to no "feel" through the bars anyway right?

Anyways please excuse the complete lack of technical knowledge on my part but it's just something that I wanted to get off my chest.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2016, 07:01:30 AM
I don't think one can say there's little to no feel coming through the bars in real life.

Anyway, in principle it is possible to have a "countersteering controller": use direct steer angle (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.msg43#msg43 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=28.msg43#msg43)), eventually on an input device with force feedback (e.g. a steering wheel). I think a couple one this forum have tried to build dedicated hardware to do that, as for bikes the steering range is very small compared to cars.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:12:53 AM
When I say little to no feel, what I really mean is that you don't really get any sense of the bars turning when you steer unless the front is getting light or you're on the edge of grip limits. Most of the time the bars just feel pretty "solid" no matter how hard you push on them.

As for direct steer angle, it's a bit of a red herring for me. It's not implemented realistically in GPBikes and there are too many parameters to work with. What I'm talking about is simply converting torque forces from the stationary handlebar directly into standard left/right steering commands. Not exactly realistic I know, but seems like a much more realistic solution than rotating handlebars.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2016, 07:25:08 AM
Quote from: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:12:53 AM
As for direct steer angle, it's a bit of a red herring for me. It's not implemented realistically in GPBikes and there are too many parameters to work with.
Direct steer angle = 1 parameter (max steering angle, pretty trivial).  Too many ?!

Quote from: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:12:53 AM
What I'm talking about is simply converting torque forces from the stationary handlebar directly into standard left/right steering commands.
And how would you do that ? Convert a torque into what exactly ? A target lean angle (guess that's what you call standard steering command) ? That wouldn't really make sense to me.

Quote from: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:12:53 AM
Not exactly realistic I know, but seems like a much more realistic solution than rotating handlebars.
Real handlebars do rotate (not much, agreed, but they do).
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: teeds on October 12, 2016, 07:45:11 AM
Also don't forget that although the bars don't rotate much, the bike beneath you does and I think the likes of DD's controller setup does imitate this well.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2016, 07:25:08 AM

And how would you do that ? Convert a torque into what exactly ? A target lean angle (guess that's what you call standard steering command) ? That wouldn't really make sense to me.


On a real bike it requires constant pressure on the bars to maintain lean so this makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 12, 2016, 09:14:59 AM
I have tested this kind of system and it is never going to work due to the fact that it is far to sensitive and allows almost no control but just a flopping from side to side due to over sensitivity. The mechanical principle is piss easy but the fact that you are NOT riding along the road with the forces of nature means until those are simulated you are stuck with the basic concept we use today.

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2016, 09:37:10 AM
Quote from: August1 on October 12, 2016, 07:56:14 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2016, 07:25:08 AM

And how would you do that ? Convert a torque into what exactly ? A target lean angle (guess that's what you call standard steering command) ? That wouldn't really make sense to me.


On a real bike it requires constant pressure on the bars to maintain lean so this makes sense to me.
Except the relationship between input torque (what you call pressure) and lean angle is really not as simple.
Anyway, I think it will actually feel weird to push/pull a bar that doesn't move (on top of what you already noticed, that if the front shakes, you'll feel nothing).
But if you can try it, give it a go.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: grimm on October 14, 2016, 06:34:56 AM
Hmmmmm, what if the pressure sensor, if it could work, was used to control the left-right rider lean? Rather than the bike steering itself.  ???
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 08:54:54 AM
Pressure sensors move only about 1mm try controlling that. I know its pressure but it is too sensitive. And yes I have wasted money and tried lol.

I think rider movement needs to be via gyro and accelerometer electronics. remember that test I did when there grimm?

You all seem to forget one thing about counter steering, it is a small amount at the start of turning not a large movement and THAT is what is wrong with all these "I turn my wheel left to go right like in real life" bollocks everyone says. You dont turn the frickin bars to the left to turn right, you apply a bit of pressure to the right of the bars which moves it slightly to the left but it is also to stop the front wheel from turning into the turn ie right. How the fuck can holding your bars at 40 degrees to the left feel REAL when going right if on a REAL bike you would hardly even notice it!!!

In a sim you CANT have all the reality due to lack of technology, or putting it correctly, lack of lots of money.

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: TFC on October 14, 2016, 10:54:53 AM
Surely it comes under the realms of force feedback rather than applied pressure. You should have to apply pressure to counter the force feedback right?
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: August1 on October 14, 2016, 11:10:57 AM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 08:54:54 AM
Pressure sensors move only about 1mm try controlling that. I know its pressure but it is too sensitive. And yes I have wasted money and tried lol.


How much torque on the handlebars did it require to depress that pressure sensor the full 1 mm of travel? I'm guessing very little so it would have been very difficult to modulate the input. A torque sensor is completely static though. Let's say you use a torque sensor that's able to measure 0-20 NM of torque to an accuracy of 1 NM. I think your arms would be able to modulate a progressive torque input within that range.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 11:53:39 AM
To be totally honest you are all over complicating a simple thing because you want it real!!!!

Well heres the actual truth..............

Unless you got a lot of money and a great workshop or willing to pay someone to produce the parts it will NEVER be something everyone can afford. My systems are not cheap but they are a heck of a lot of work to make. Now add something like you are on about and oh boy you are looking at 3 times the cost plus!!!

Now the most important point. Because you are sitting still in a room, your body is working different from when on a bike in real life. You inputs are far greater than normal as you are not fighting actual forces. You have to have a force to fight in order to measure your movements. It is so hard to put into words for me, but I have tried every way to replicate this and it is just too expensive and to be honest I dont think even Piboso can write the program to do it correctly while only using a gamepad him/her self!!! In order to make a sim work the software must be tested with hardware to make it work, BUT there is no hardware so how the fuck can you say it works??? BTW I am not being funny I just use the word fuck as an expression to strengthen the point..

So.................First a system with force feed back and the actual movement of a real bike must be made to allow the programmer the chance to test the program with!!! Then you find out that the hardware concept is great for a real bike but shit while sitting still in a room!!! It is far more complex than just thinking about real world bike movement as your still sitting still in a fucking room!!! LOL

My system is totally unrealistic in its action of a real bike, BUT it is right for replicating you body movement like in the real world, so it is totally wrong but also right, its looking outside of the physics books. This is why all the thoughts about this sensor and that will not work as you think because you all forget the software we have now is written from physics not "Sitting Still In A Room" necessity!!!

Just my 10 cents on the subject

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: August1 on October 14, 2016, 12:31:02 PM
Mate, no need to get riled up  ;). I only proposed this control method because I feel like it may be a feasible alternative method of providing high-resolution control inputs besides the steering wheel or joystick solutions because ultimately isn't that why we use those solutions and not just stick to gamepads? Because it's easier to modulate control inputs and get rid of the dead zone issue?
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 06:11:12 PM
LOL August not riled up bro that is why I wrote  "BUT there is no hardware so how the fuck can you say it works??? BTW I am not being funny I just use the word fuck as an expression to strengthen the point" I am an passionate person and talk so lol

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: Manu on October 14, 2016, 11:55:26 PM
I use a force feedback steering wheel (Logitech G27) with adjustable degrees (120 in my case) and it feels like real for me. In my particular case with direct lean 100% and 120 degrees of rotation to simulate the inclination of the bike (60 degrees to each side). It is impressive how you feel every bump, every jolt same as real life... just great.

If I could attach the imput system of Mr. DD in my steering wheel would be the perfect controller for me.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 15, 2016, 07:47:46 AM
I CAN make my bars fit on the G27 as that is what I used to start the project after I had not done anything for years. I wire the throttle and front brake and clutch to replace the pedals and you can rewire the buttons!!! You can keep it for car racing too!!!

DD

EDIT: My original plan was to do a clamp on system for G wheels and TX too
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: Manu on October 15, 2016, 08:53:34 AM
That would be just awesome.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 07:50:37 AM
I have a load sensor upgrade to brake pedal on my Thrustmaster T500 steering wheel setup.

The load sensor allows one to step hard on the brakes and have very fine control over all that force.

Would a handle bar setup using 2 load sensors to detect the counter steering input not allow the rider to put a lot of pressure on the bars allowing for finer control?

Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 16, 2016, 07:55:06 AM
To be frank RC, NO. Using loadcells is just too over sensitive when I tested the same theory. You just can not hold a line and it is worse than using a gamepad. PLUS you have practically no movement so you feel like you are just sitting in the room and there is no feeling of immersion at all.

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

Granted it would best be combined with a sit on rig so you could lean and push on the inside bar nice and hard and steadily just they way one does when on a bike at speed, but even a desk mount system that offered a lot of resistance would feel more natural to me than handle bars that rotated even a small amount.

Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 16, 2016, 09:32:49 AM
Load cells are for brakes forget it for steering.

You just wont understand that you are in a room, NOT on a bike and it just does not work the same. You also have to consider physical fatigue when racing in a sim. As you are not able to use your full body as you do on a real bike when riding you end up using muscles not usually used and  if you are not careful of how the system functions mechanically you can actually damage muscles. I have been doing this for years and tried almost every way and found this out.

I can not see WHY people insist on having something that wont work? Because most wont look outside of the text book they REFUSE to except many FACTS about what can not be done and why.

It is really simple, the software today demands a certain amount of movement in order to be able to cover that movement in the sim, but if you made that amount of movement in real life you would crash all the time and it would be unrealistic. So now you try to use pressure or torque values to accomplish this and you end up having NO movement in the control system that feel boring and no fun, even if it is more realistic as you hardly move the handlebars in real life, it kills all the sensation of riding in the sim!!!

No matter what idea you have for making a realistic system, in the end you build a control that is boring and devoid of the feeling you want to have. It may work in the sim but your subconsciousness will tell you it feels wrong. Its just that you are going to be sitting still, not moving hardly at all. How can that fell real?

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 10:34:04 AM
Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

For brakes yes (even if it's far from sure it's worth the effort), but for steering ...
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 11:38:16 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 10:34:04 AM
Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

For brakes yes (even if it's far from sure it's worth the effort), but for steering ...

I have been using load cell brakes for 5 years now on the PC/PS3/PS4/XboxOne driving rig and would not bother using pedals without them. Being able to use proper leg and foot power on the brake pedal and modulate the force and not have brakes lock up is an essential part of the immersion.

When I ride I expect and would anticipate the front brake lever to be very firm, so a load cell again would give me the feel I would expect and anticipate - same for rear brake, which would allow for proper foot brake modulation.

I envision a speed sensitive steering setup that allows conventional turn left for left and turn right for right at very low speeds - under 1 or 2 mph then the steering locks up and all you get is about 10 degrees of rotation up against the load cells or similar force driven input that requires push left to go left and push right to go right and then as speed increases the steering lock decreases and stiffens up until at speed all you can do is push against the bars and the steering lock is now controlled by feedback from the game engine - so if you get a tank slapper you better be ready to hold on or rather loosen up on the bars and let the bike settle down and ride it out :)

There - that's my dream controller description :)

The reason I am so fired up and inspired today is because I finally got round to starting up my 1987 TZ250T that I was lucky enough to get hold of last year - previously it had been on display in the window of a little Japanese bike shop for the previous 25 years and was only let out for the occasional parade event.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 16, 2016, 12:28:12 PM
but YOU still dont get it do you.

Because you have such a small amount of movement the system will be uncontrollable AND you will have NO real movement and just be sitting still in a room.

Your theory is good, but in practice it sucks, I know I have done it, what part of that dont you get?

It SUCKS!!! It gives no immersion except if you got your tankslapper otherwise you will get bored of it real quick. You NEED to be moving as on a bike not sitting still putting piddly amounts of movement even with pressure.

I guess I am just wasting my time trying to explain it. But I do wish you all the best if you do try it, just hope you are not too disappointing as I was.

DD
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 12:37:08 PM
Actually I do get it.  I know exactly what I want to feel when I ride - I currently sit still not moving any muscles except  2 thumbs and 2 fingers.  How is that not boring?

It just seems you won't permit anyone else to think outside YOUR box ;)
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 01:59:45 PM
Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 11:38:16 AM
I envision a speed sensitive steering setup that allows conventional turn left for left and turn right for right at very low speeds - under 1 or 2 mph then the steering locks up and all you get is about 10 degrees of rotation up against the load cells or similar force driven input that requires push left to go left and push right to go right and then as speed increases the steering lock decreases and stiffens up until at speed all you can do is push against the bars and the steering lock is now controlled by feedback from the game engine - so if you get a tank slapper you better be ready to hold on or rather loosen up on the bars and let the bike settle down and ride it out :)

There - that's my dream controller description :)
So what you want (minus some details that are a bit messy in your explanation), is Direct Steer Angle with a Force Feedback handlebar/wheel.
It should behave exactly as you want: low speed -> turn bars left (large angle) to go left; high speed -> turn bars left (small angle) to turn right.
All is already in: same direction steer at low speeds, countersteer at high speeds, low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

I cannot grant that it will "feel right" in practice though: as ddcc said, there are plenty of other considerations.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: grimm on October 16, 2016, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 08:54:54 AM
Pressure sensors move only about 1mm try controlling that. I know its pressure but it is too sensitive. And yes I have wasted money and tried lol.

I think rider movement needs to be via gyro and accelerometer electronics. remember that test I did when there grimm?

You all seem to forget one thing about counter steering, it is a small amount at the start of turning not a large movement and THAT is what is wrong with all these "I turn my wheel left to go right like in real life" bollocks everyone says. You dont turn the frickin bars to the left to turn right, you apply a bit of pressure to the right of the bars which moves it slightly to the left but it is also to stop the front wheel from turning into the turn ie right. How the fuck can holding your bars at 40 degrees to the left feel REAL when going right if on a REAL bike you would hardly even notice it!!!

In a sim you CANT have all the reality due to lack of technology, or putting it correctly, lack of lots of money.

DD


Even after a bunch of thought on the matter, I just can't see why load cells wouldn't work for left-right rider movement (not steering). One on each side of the tank of a sit on system so when you are full hang off and a leg is hooked over the tank pushing a panel with a load cell, it would deploy the knee and get the rider out off the side of the bike, rather than letting the auto lean deal with it as I currently do with the desk top system I mess around with from time to time, also allowing for you to counter weight the bike out of a power slide or stay tucked into the bike at high speed cornering if you desire such a movement to improve upon a lap time that is being held back by the rider hanging way off causing instability. If I ever get around to digging up my spare frame and all the associated bits and bobs for it to build a full sit on system I may attempt it just to see how it work, worst that happens is I just tick the auto lean box again and give up.  ;)
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 04:39:35 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 01:59:45 PM
All is already in:
a) same direction steer at low speeds,
b) countersteer at high speeds,
c) low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

Are you suggesting that the GP Bikes game engine already has this control model with force feedback loop already coded in? If so that just adds to the awe of the GPB.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 06:15:17 PM
Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 04:39:35 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 01:59:45 PM
All is already in:
a) same direction steer at low speeds,
b) countersteer at high speeds,
c) low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

Are you suggesting that the GP Bikes game engine already has this control model with force feedback loop already coded in? If so that just adds to the awe of the GPB.
Yes.

You can enable Direct Steer Angle, even on a joypad. Of course it won't work well on a joypad as you miss the force feedback.
If you enable it with a steering wheel you should already obtain something closer to the real deal. Notice however that it may turn out terribly difficult to setup properly and/or terribly difficult to use (not impossible, we had a player using a joypad with direct steer torque, probably even more difficult than direct steer angle).
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: grimm on October 16, 2016, 09:13:26 PM
A ton of my stunt riding video I put out was using DST with the Klax settings all the way around. It allowed control of the sim that I never thought possible, it felt like netBike with the twitchy behavior of a real machine.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 09:00:53 AM
Quote from: grimm on October 16, 2016, 04:24:36 PM


Even after a bunch of thought on the matter, I just can't see why load cells wouldn't work for left-right rider movement (not steering). One on each side of the tank of a sit on system so when you are full hang off and a leg is hooked over the tank pushing a panel with a load cell, it would deploy the knee and get the rider out off the side of the bike, rather than letting the auto lean deal with it as I currently do with the desk top system I mess around with from time to time, also allowing for you to counter weight the bike out of a power slide or stay tucked into the bike at high speed cornering if you desire such a movement to improve upon a lap time that is being held back by the rider hanging way off causing instability. If I ever get around to digging up my spare frame and all the associated bits and bobs for it to build a full sit on system I may attempt it just to see how it work, worst that happens is I just tick the auto lean box again and give up.  ;)

This may be the better a better use for load cells. I was just thinking the nature of load cells needing constant pressure, which is what we do when we lean or counter steer - we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.

They just seem to be the appropriate input sensor for these types pf actions - in my mind at least.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: doubledragoncc on October 17, 2016, 09:14:39 AM
That is totally possible grimm, for rider movement but you will want loadcells with quite a low pressure sensing.

DD

Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 09:37:03 AM
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 09:00:53 AM
This may be the better a better use for load cells. I was just thinking the nature of load cells needing constant pressure, which is what we do when we lean or counter steer - we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.
This is the point that I can't manage to explain to you.

Let's say you're leaning at 20deg in steady conditions (stable lean angle, constant speed, constant track and tyre conditions): at this point your bars are at a given angle (not necessarily zero, but smallish) and you have to apply a torque to the bard to hold everything steady. The torque you have to apply is usually not big, but it depends on the bike overall geometry (bike, tryres, masses, ...). It could even be zero in some conditions. Let's say the torque is 2Nm (Newton/m).

Now let's imagine you want to lean more, to 30deg. What you say is: I want to lean more so I need to apply more torque. You're kind of expecting that there's fixed amount of torque (let's say 3Nm) that will make you go to 30deg lean and then, to hold that lean, you have to hold the 3Nm torque. That's wrong.

Most of the time you'll have to apply some extra torque (e.g. 3Nm) to make the bar turn, then the bike will start leaning more and once you're at 30deg, you'll have to reduce the torque,
Once you're at 30deg it may be that to hold that lean you'll only need 2Nm, just like at 20deg (or maybe more or maybe even less !).

There's no simple link between a steady steering torque and a steady lean angle, at least not on a real bike.

After that, you can try to use a load cell to dictate the target lean angle to GPB (after all that's not any crazier than using a joystick angle).
But the justification for that cannot be "because that's what we do on a real bike", because it's not.

[EDIT: Nm for torques, I must have been seriously on the rush]
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 09:37:03 AM
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 09:00:53 AM
This may be the better a better use for load cells. I was just thinking the nature of load cells needing constant pressure, which is what we do when we lean or counter steer - we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.
This is the point that I can't manage to explain to you.

Let's say you're leaning at 20deg in steady conditions (stable lean angle, constant speed, constant track and tyre conditions): at this point your bars are at a given angle (not necessarily zero, but smallish) and you have to apply a torque to the bard to hold everything steady. The torque you have to apply is usually not big, but it depends on the bike overall geometry (bike, tryres, masses, ...). It could even be zero in some conditions. Let's say the torque is 2N (Newtons).

Now let's imagine you want to lean more, to 30deg. What you say is: I want to lean more so I need to apply more torque. You're kind of expecting that there's fixed amount of torque (let's say 3N) that will make you go to 30deg lean and then, to hold that lean, you have to hold the 3N torque. That's wrong.

Most of the time you'll have to apply some extra torque (e.g. 3N) to make the bar turn, then the bike will start leaning more and once you're at 30deg, you'll have to reduce the torque,
Once you're at 30deg it may be that to hold that lean you'll only need 2N, just like at 20deg (or maybe more or maybe even less !).

There's no simple link between a steady steering torque and a steady lean angle, at least not on a real bike.


After that, you can try to use a load cell to dictate the target lean angle to GPB (after all that's not any crazier than using a joystick angle).
But the justification for that cannot be "because that's what we do on a real bike", because it's not.


It seems you assume I do not understand or know much about motorcycle control. Note how I stated:

we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.

I understand exactly how motorcycle control works and that we need to over come various steady state conditions by various inputs.

The discussion is about the suitability of load cells as the input sensor of choice, and if the load cell needs to have dynamically applied filtering to the input and perhaps even output signals, filtering that is driven by yet another set of signal analysis based on lean angle, speed etc. then so be it and that is the subject of the final controller design.

But if I as the player have to provide both the input and resistance as I saw my way around the corner like we did before quality Force Feedback controllers on the car side of sim-gaming then I may as well keep using the XBox or PS2 controller.

If we are actually trying to overcome/counter forces presented to the rider by the bike, then we should at least have them brought to the table by the bike and not simulated by our own controlled responses to the dynamics of the situation - and as far as I understand GP Bikes is able to represent the forces presented by the bike in this equation very well.

I also understand passions run high and any 'new comer' on the scene will rile up the locals that have rehashed these subjects ad infinitum :)  Just throwing my idea in the ring :)
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 08:30:08 PM
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
It seems you assume I do not understand or know much about motorcycle control. Note how I stated:

we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.

I understand exactly how motorcycle control works and that we need to over come various steady state conditions by various inputs.
I'm ready to assume you know exactly how bike controls work (and sorry if it seemed I implied the opposite), but what is a "varying amount of steady state pressure" ?!  :o

Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
The discussion is about the suitability of load cells as the input sensor of choice, and if the load cell needs to have dynamically applied filtering to the input and perhaps even output signals, filtering that is driven by yet another set of signal analysis based on lean angle, speed etc. then so be it and that is the subject of the final controller design.
Wow, that would be utterly complicated to put in place and tune. But there's little need, see next.

Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
If we are actually trying to overcome/counter forces presented to the rider by the bike, then we should at least have them brought to the table by the bike and not simulated by our own controlled responses to the dynamics of the situation - and as far as I understand GP Bikes is able to represent the forces presented by the bike in this equation very well.
Exactly. GPB's FFB signal is exactly the torque applied by the bike (actually, the bike and environment) to the handlebars. Said otherwise it's the torque you would feel if your hands were really on the bars. Now if you had a device capable of sensing a torque applied by you, then you could input that to GPB using Direct Steer Torque. The problem with that is that the bars of the input device will either not rotate at all (as in your propose setup) or have an angle not aligned to GPB's in-game bars. Bad.
The alternative is to use Direct Steer Angle: with that the alignment of real/virtual bars is granted and you still have FFB on your bars. That's why I'm saying that, in principle, it's the best solution. In practice though, it's not granted.

Notice that in your setup (fixed bars with a torque sensor), you're not presented with the torque generated by the bike: if we forget the tiny torsion of the solid bars, you're presented with a torque that at any instant in time is equal to the one you apply (and opposite in sign), as your bars do not move. If in game the front starts shaking like in a tank slapper, you will not feel it with your proposed setup. With DSA or DST on a FFB device you would.

Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PM
I also understand passions run high and any 'new comer' on the scene will rile up the locals that have rehashed these subjects ad infinitum :)  Just throwing my idea in the ring :)
Don't worry, infinity + 1 is still infinity :) And any reasoning on this is welcome, especially if it comes from somebody with some understanding of this stuff.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 08:47:45 PM
 "varying amount of steady state pressure" is the easiest way I have of describing how I ride when explaining counter steering concepts to newbie riders I have met over the years who don't realize what they are doing when riding. What we are doing is not violently yanking the bars or see-sawing - we apply varying steady state-like forces to the bars.

Who said my ideal design would have fixed bars?

I would envision the "rigid" state of the bars to be provided by the countering force of an electric motor setup. At rest that force is zero and the bars are free to turn. As you speed up, the gyroscopic stability of the rotating wheel is simulated by the stiffening force applied to the steering stem as fed back from the game (which is the source of the force notification in our scenario).

The current state of the bars would be driven by feedback from GP Bikes - this is what I was unsure about, whether GPB was setup for this very scenario.

In essence, if the game can setup the bars state and attitude and the player can then respond as they would in real life we might just have the perfect match.

Granted this prototype controller would need $1000+ worth of load cells, USB interface boards and FFB motors on top of the actual construction - quite the commitment :)

Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 09:31:21 PM
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 08:47:45 PM
Who said my ideal design would have fixed bars?

I would envision the "rigid" state of the bars to be provided by the countering force of an electric motor setup. At rest that force is zero and the bars are free to turn. As you speed up, the gyroscopic stability of the rotating wheel is simulated by the stiffening force applied to the steering stem as fed back from the game (which is the source of the force notification in our scenario).

The current state of the bars would be driven by feedback from GP Bikes - this is what I was unsure about, whether GPB was setup for this very scenario.

In essence, if the game can setup the bars state and attitude and the player can then respond as they would in real life we might just have the perfect match.

Granted this prototype controller would need $1000+ worth of load cells, USB interface boards and FFB motors on top of the actual construction - quite the commitment :)

OK let's rephrase the above to see if I get you right: you would like GPB to dictate the bar angle of the input device. The input device will sense the (net) torque applied by you on it and send it to GPB. Right ?

If yes, that has already been discussed here a long ago (guess by who :) ). It would be interesting to try, but it has a few drawbacks:

DSA is much simpler: you dictate an angle and send it to GPB, while GPB computes two things: the torque necessary to implement the bars angle (in-game) and the torque applied by the environment on the bike (to be sent to the device as a normal FFB signal).

This is much simpler because first, your device is a "simple wheel with FFB" (no need of exotic devices/drivers). Second, the GPB part that converts your target bars angle into a torque command "to be sent to the virtual bars" is something that GPB already has in the form of the virtual rider (even if in the usual setup it converts from target lean angle to bar torque and not from target bar angle to bar torque). Even if that virtual rider would need some tuning, it would be much easier to tune it than to tune a dedicated hardware feedback loop. And less risky too :)
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: h106frp on October 17, 2016, 10:11:12 PM
I did make a start on exactly this type of control loop - one day it may even be finished if i find the time among other projects ::)

https://www.youtube.com/v/YfeA1X4z21s

I did get the steering stem instrumented as a working and very sensitive torque transducer and the roll and steer are driven directly by GPB's telemetry.
... actually not a lot needs doing to finish it

The saga;
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1997.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1997.0)

Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 11:40:56 PM
Interesting !

Will it be possible to use it (also) the "other way around" ? (i.e.  GPB in DSA mode, GPB's FFB driving the steering motor with it's FFB signal, the steering angle being passed to GPB)

That should allow some interesting comparison.

Strain gauge on the steering stem ?


Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 07:24:12 AM
GPB drives the roll servo and the steer angle servo.

The stem is indeed strain gauged as a classic torque transducer :)

So this allows true torque steer with DSA feedback, i think when we discussed this previously we decided this would be the most faithful reproduction of the steering process
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 18, 2016, 08:53:49 AM
Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 07:24:12 AM
GPB drives the roll servo and the steer angle servo.

The stem is indeed strain gauged as a classic torque transducer :)

So this allows true torque steer with DSA feedback, i think when we discussed this previously we decided this would be the most faithful reproduction of the steering process
Ouch, I'm confused again now. Lean is clear (GPB outputs the lean, your roll servo realizes it). For the rest:

Option 1: GPB using DST,  your torque sensor sending its output to GPB "steering" input and GPB's FFB signal sent to your steering servo.

Option 2: GPB using DST, your torque sensor sending its output to GPB "steering" input and GPB sending its steering bars angle to your roll steering servo (GPB's FFB signal not used !). [EDIT : typo]

Option 3: GPB using DSA, your steering angle sensor sending its output to GPB "steering" input and GPB's FFB signal sent to your steering servo (your torque sensor not used !).

Which one/ones are you going for ?


Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 09:08:45 AM
Option 2 but the steering bars angle goes to the steer servo.

Roll is just a product of the GPB physics engine output so is just driven from the telemetry signal to the correct lean angle.

I am not sure how i would use GPBs FFB signal and i am not even sure what parameters are used to compute the DirectX controller style FF signal.
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: HornetMaX on October 18, 2016, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 09:08:45 AM
Option 2 but the steering bars angle goes to the steer servo.
OK (I fixed the typo in my post above, of course it was the steering servo, not the roll one :) ).

Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 09:08:45 AM
I am not sure how i would use GPBs FFB signal and i am not even sure what parameters are used to compute the DirectX controller style FF signal.
The FFB signal is just the value of the torque to be applied to the bars, it's computed by GPB. It should drive your steering servo: 0% = generate no torque, +/-100% = generate max torque left/right (max torque = the max torque your device can /is allowed to generate).

Easiest way to pick it up for you is probably to use an output plugin just like you do for roll: in the telemetry data you have m_fSteerTorque (Nm).

GPB likely sends the FFB signal to the device via DirectX: you could do that too, but it's probably more complicate (as a bonus, in GPB you have a slider to set FFB strength, but that's not a big deal, your output plugin could have this "gain" as parameter or a slider in its UI).
Title: Re: Countersteering Controller Suggestion
Post by: Vini on October 19, 2016, 10:03:59 PM
you have to finish building that controller some time, h!!!
an accurately simulated steering axis would be incredible.