Hello guys.
Is it possible to gather all the knowledges of your brilliant brains and make a 'settings database' ?
It would be nice to have different layers from 'noob' to 'nasa engineer'. So one could start with the basis, tyres pressure, compound, electronics and then move forward to spring compression to finish with offset, and all those things that need a bachelor in mechanics.
If this already exists, I didn't found it and I appologise.
It would help a lot.
Problem is, everyone just says "go online and ask for a setup" which always works and is great, BUT, it would be good to have a setup database ONCE the setups work in ALL new versions of GPB.
At present, if you have beta11 and ugrade to 11b, your setup wont work properly due to physics changes in the newer beta
So...................is it worth having one yet is the question
DD
Been suggested many times in the past, but something that might be worth mentioning here is that a setup that works well for one rider may not work so well with another rider, and this is probably why this idea has never really took-off. ;)
Hawk.
True Hawky BUT it might also work
Being negative will get us all nowhere really. I think it is worth trying as it could be great help for noobs or even normal riders having problems with one bike or someone just needs one for offline practice when there is nobody else online
DD
As Hawk points out, rider preferens and choice of controller means that exact setups are fairly individual. I think the best thing would be a really detailed and easy to understand setup guide made by some one who actually know what they are doing (not me). Like problem/solution instructions. Examples:
Bike under-steers at corner entry. Possible solution: lower rake nr, shorten front suspension, bla bla preload, bla bla rear bike height.
Possible negative effects: Rear is more likely to lose traction on corner exit, bla bla...
Bike unstable over crests. Possible solution: bla bla
Possible negative effects: bla bla
Front end tucks in slow corners. Possible solution: lower rake nr, shorten front suspension, bla bla preload, bla bla rear bike height.
Possible negative effects: bla bla
And so on. But it takes someone with the knowledge, the time and the will to make a good guide.
Cheers,
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
I agree with Gonzo, a guide by someone who knows what they are talking about would be super useful for new players, like myself. Although I realise that would be a lot of effort to set up something in that nature.
I typed a very simple guide here --> http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0). If anybody wants, I can expand on it, but I'd prefer a section on the forum where people express their difficulties in attempting to get their bike(s) doing something, or said difficulties in trying to avoid certain behaviour. People can then provide info on the settings which enhance or counter-act specific vehicular tendencies.
I am happy to see that we are several people to have the same idea in mind.
Yes Gonzo, that is exactly what I meant !!! I think that not one people can do this. It must be a comunauty thread built by several people.
What Urban chaos did, is a really good start ! But, let's be a little more accurate on what I was thinking about. What I think could be usefull and what we don't need.
We don't need a database with already made up settups for each bike. I mean, this could be usefull, but that's not what I have in mind. My whish is to have somewhere, a place (a thread) where we could share knowledge, as UC did and Gonzo explained.
First of all, a description of each settings. This has been done by Matty or MAX in a very usefull guide, as UC did to help Adrian.
But it's not enough !! Let's take this example :
Quote- Front fork height - Raises the front
- Rear fork height - Raises the rear
Annnnnnnd soooooo ??? ?
There are some points that are more detailed :
Quote- Swing length - Longer swing arm means more stability in a straight line, but less turning ability
That's way better !
But, what if I want a bike that is stable and can turn ? What if I have already reach the limits of this setting ? Or simply, why a long swinf arm makes it more stable ?? (I know why, this is just an example).
The ideal knowledge base could also answer classic questions. Like :
"At the end of a turn, when I accelerate, the rear compresses, making me turn more, but then extend and makes me understeer"
with an answer "You must have more compression or a stiffer spring and put a yellow underwear, bla bla bla..."
There are a lot of thread like this for car simulation but I can't find a good one for bikes.
For instance, a guide for iRacing : https://d3bxz2vegbjddt.cloudfront.net/members/pdfs/iRacing_Setup_Guide.pdf
Quote from: tchemi on March 03, 2017, 04:25:56 PM
First of all, a description of each settings. This has been done by Matty or MAX in a very usefull guide, as UC did to help Adrian.
But it's not enough !! Let's take this example :
Quote- Front fork height - Raises the front
- Rear fork height - Raises the rear
Annnnnnnd soooooo ??? ?
Haha sorry, I thought it would be common sense what the consequences of changing those settings would be. I didn't think I actually had to explain it.
EDIT: Anyway, that's why I offered to expand it. Damn-near all those points I gave Adrian were short and lacking substantially in information, however I knew I had given enough info for most people to be able to understand all they needed to. I didn't feel like typing all that much.
Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on March 03, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
I typed a very simple guide here --> http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0).
Warning: the explanation of bump is just wrong. In GPB, "Bump" is the compression damper (just like rebound is the extension damper).
Some infos are here too: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.msg3626#msg3626 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.msg3626#msg3626) (just the basic definitions of what stuff does in GPB).
Some new features are not described (I stopped taking care of that a long time ago and nobody jumped in to fill the role).
Max, that is the "guide" I was talking about. It should be the chapter one of "set up your bike" ^^. It is clear and well writen.
But It doesn't help to counteract some behaviours. If you don't know why it is drifting at the end of a corner or wobbling onto braking, it doesn't help to know that higher front heigh makes the front higher, for instance.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 03, 2017, 06:08:27 PM
Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on March 03, 2017, 03:23:35 PM
I typed a very simple guide here --> http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=3893.0).
Warning: the explanation of bump is just wrong. In GPB, "Bump" is the compression damper (just like rebound is the extension damper).
Some infos are here too: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.msg3626#msg3626 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=431.msg3626#msg3626) (just the basic definitions of what stuff does in GPB).
Some new features are not described (I stopped taking care of that a long time ago and nobody jumped in to fill the role).
Oh. I thought Piboso shortened "bump stop" to "bump".
Typical of the problem - it does not - positive value lifts the front forks through the triple by that ammount creating a steeper steering angle, quicker turn and less stability with side effects such as wheelbase and trail changes
Same logic at the back but will cause the bike to have a shallower steering angle amongst other things
Max, I think you should make the setup guide more visible to users. I for one, had no idea it existed.
Quote from: tchemi on March 03, 2017, 06:21:11 PM
Max, that is the "guide" I was talking about. It should be the chapter one of "set up your bike" ^^. It is clear and well writen.
But It doesn't help to counteract some behaviours. If you don't know why it is drifting at the end of a corner or wobbling onto braking, it doesn't help to know that higher front heigh makes the front higher, for instance.
I know, I know.
To be honest I don't think that what you are asking exists/is really doable. There are some general principles, yes, but then different bikes can behave differently under extreme conditions.
And, as said by others, settings that suit a rider may not suit a different rider at all (in GPB and in real life).
If you look on the web you'll find plenty of "magic" guides (like "under-steering ? Do that. Bad at braking ? Do that): how true they are I cannot say.
For beginners I'd just suggest to stop focusing on the setup of the bike until you can really feel the differences: before that time, you're wasting your time in trying to find something you can't feel ("you" of course is not you, it's in general). Just get the gear ratio ok (that's easy), put soft tyres and do laps over laps.
I cannot tell you how many times people on this forum have reported the bike being much much better changing the swing-arm pivot position: problem is, until a recent beta, that setting was dummy (no influence on physics). So ...
Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on March 03, 2017, 06:33:16 PM
Max, I think you should make the setup guide more visible to users. I for one, had no idea it existed.
I no longer maintain it (past history, well before you joined). Forum admins can make what they want with it.
If anybody else wants to keep it alive, please do: just quote each post (to get the "source" code of the guide) and fix the link between the different posts.
Maxhud will also help you to understand what the bike is doing - suspension, lean, control input etc
For more experienced users debug mode adds even more feedback info
So...
We recently started this thread and then... nothing more.
I red a lot of forums, sites and even a little book that explain how to setup a bike for track day. Ok, GPBikes is not about trackday but hey, it is still about setting up a bike.
On each document I red, they are allways saying that the first step is to set up the front and rear SAG depnding on your weight (static sag and rider sag) using zip ties, rulers, central stand etc...
Ok, very good, that's a good start but... How can I do this in GPB ?? :(
also, this article is very good IMO
http://www.gostar-racing.com/club/motorcycle_suspension_set-up.htm#Where did I start
Yep, very interesting article. Can anyone confirm or infirm that ?
Front Compression :
QuoteSOFT: If your compression is too soft, your bike will nose dive too quickly, then as you turn into the corner, the bike will collapse into it and you end up having to compensate.
HARD: On the other hand if you have too much front compression damping, do not get enough nose dive and the bike will be reluctant to turn and may drift wide on entry to the corner.
Front Rebound :
QuoteSOFT: If it rebounds too quickly in the corner your bike will sit up very quickly creating a longer wheel base. The front wheel "shooting" out also causes the bike to drift wide or a feeling of the front end "washing out" If this happens, increase (harden) your rebound to slow the rate the front wheel rebounds.
HARD: On the other hand if the rebound is too hard, when you let go of the brakes and on to the throttle in a corner, because the wheel is compressed for longer you will have a shorter wheel base for longer. This may cause the bike to feel wooden in the corner and turn too quickly. Soften her up.
Rear Compression :
QuoteSOFT: Let's imagine that you are exiting a corner on your motorcycle, and the bike is leant over and you start to accelerate smartly. If the compression damping is too soft, you will get too much rear end "squatting" causing a "nose up" situation. This will cause your bike to drift wide on exit of the corner. This is not the same as a too much of front compression damping which causes the bike to drift wide on entry to the corner.
HARD: On the other hand if your rear compression damping is too hard, you will not get enough "squatting" and therefore may not get enough traction. This will cause a bit of rear wheel spin, or the rear wheel suddenly "kicking up". You can imagine what can happen in extreme circumstances.
Rear Rebound :
QuoteSOFT: However if it is a long corner then your rear rebound will come into play mid-corner. If your rear wheel kicks up too quickly, it will unsettle the chassis of the bike making it "wallow" and "lurch" mid corner. A lot of people wrongly try to cure mid comer "wallowing" by increasing rear preload. This may "stiffen" the rear end but you may loose a bit of suspension travel. The cure is to increase (harden) rear rebound.
HARD: However if your rear suspension is too hard, your back wheel will not sit up quick enough. This will cause you the have the back end squatting causing a "nose up " situation for longer. This may cause you to drift wide similar to the effects of soft compression. Also since the rear shock does not extend quick enough, you may get a feeling of vagueness or loss of traction