PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => General Discussion => Topic started by: Adalgood on August 20, 2017, 05:10:56 pm

Title: First person simulator server
Post by: Adalgood on August 20, 2017, 05:10:56 pm
Hello everyone. Is it possible for one of the teams to enable a server in hardcore mode open continuously but forcing the first person view? I think that we are many who prefer to run in this way but we are forced not to use it in order to reach the times that everyone does with the outer camera. So at least in this way we could know that all times registered on the server are made with the same camera.

Ideas and constructive criticism accepted jeje
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on August 20, 2017, 05:30:19 pm
+1  :) 
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 20, 2017, 05:55:54 pm
+1

:)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 20, 2017, 06:48:12 pm
+1  :)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: PeterV on August 20, 2017, 07:16:51 pm
Caws can do that for you, i just want to now what track you want and what class.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 20, 2017, 07:28:56 pm
Thanks Peter!

ADALGOOD should choose!  ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 21, 2017, 02:52:19 am
+1
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: poumpouny on August 21, 2017, 06:42:18 am
+ 1

and another one with Dirert Steer  ;D
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on August 21, 2017, 08:41:32 am
Quote from: poumpouny on August 21, 2017, 06:42:18 am
and another one with Dirert Steer  ;D


Thats not hardcore, its suicidal  lol  ;D
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 21, 2017, 09:06:09 am
what about no riding aids?

would be included in my definition of "hardcore mode".
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Boerenlater on August 21, 2017, 09:14:43 am
Quote from: vini97 on August 21, 2017, 09:06:09 am
what about no riding aids?

would be included in my definition of "hardcore mode".
Indeed a very good point.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: poumpouny on August 21, 2017, 09:44:20 am
It depend on what bike because me i'm desactivating even TC and AW in moto gpbike haha, sometime i ask myself why ! when i know even the real Valentino Rossi in real life with he's real bike Use TC and AW hihihi, i know i'm ill lol  ;D
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 21, 2017, 01:52:14 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 21, 2017, 09:06:09 am
what about no riding aids?

would be included in my definition of "hardcore mode".


Does that mean no electronic aids too on the modern bikes? I'd be all for that!! Hehe!  ;D ;D

But no seriously..... That would surely depend on what controller your able to use? In the sense that some bikeMODS, if you cannot operate a fully manual clutch because of controller issues(lack of convenient triggers and/or buttons) then you need to use "Shift Help" as an aid.... all other aids are preferential but unfortunately if the server sets "No aids" then it won't allow the "Shift Help" aid(to change gears correctly) either which would be unfair on those who are using controllers where it's not possible to assign a fully manual clutch operation.

Not all bikes have the semi-auto-quick selector gearboxes. Plus remember that semi-auto gearboxes on modern bikes are an aid too; that cannot be stopped so why you want to stop other aids?  We either have aids or not, and if not then that would mean no modern racing bikes allowed. Yippeee!!! :P ;D ;D
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on August 21, 2017, 06:55:53 pm
Agree on no aids except Shift Help
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 21, 2017, 09:06:22 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 21, 2017, 01:52:14 pmif you cannot operate a fully manual clutch because of controller issues(lack of convenient triggers and/or buttons) then you need to use "Shift Help" as an aid

You can just hammer the gears without the clutch. Not realistic but that is neither the player's nor the modder's fault. You will of course be slightly slower than someone who has invested the time to master the manual clutch but that is only fair IMO.

Quote from: Hawk on August 21, 2017, 01:52:14 pmPlus remember that semi-auto gearboxes on modern bikes are an aid too;

Not really. Seamless gearboxes are purely mechanical. Of course the slipper clutch is controlled electronically nowadays but that is an area GP Bikes could use some improvement in anyhow.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 06:50:10 am
Quote from: vini97 on August 21, 2017, 09:06:22 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 21, 2017, 01:52:14 pmif you cannot operate a fully manual clutch because of controller issues(lack of convenient triggers and/or buttons) then you need to use "Shift Help" as an aid

You can just hammer the gears without the clutch. Not realistic but that is neither the player's nor the modder's fault. You will of course be slightly slower than someone who has invested the time to master the manual clutch but that is only fair IMO.


Have to agree with vin on this one. Can't make a lot of fuss about 1st person view / hardcore and then chicken out saying "I'd like shift help cause I can't use manual clutch".


Quote from: vini97 on August 21, 2017, 09:06:22 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 21, 2017, 01:52:14 pmPlus remember that semi-auto gearboxes on modern bikes are an aid too;

Not really. Seamless gearboxes are purely mechanical. Of course the slipper clutch is controlled electronically nowadays but that is an area GP Bikes could use some improvement in anyhow.

Hmm, the seamless gearbox itself is purely mechanical but I'm pretty convinced that a lot goes on electronically too to allow this buttersmooth up and down shifting.

BTW, your comment is interesting: it seems to imply that if something is mechanical, then it's not / it should not considered as a help.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Boerenlater on August 22, 2017, 08:43:11 am
A quickshifter is not cheating is it :P
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 am
Okay. As devils advocate here: If your going to start talking about using an aid like "Shift Help" as cheating for someone who is using a controller that makes it impractical to be able to use a fully manual clutch, then why not lets go the whole hog and say that any aid is cheating and we all should be using the DST/DSA control in GPB. That's the only realistic form of controlling a bike.... So in effect we are all cheating. The only reason 99.99% of riders never use DSA/DST control is simply down to a lack of a controller type that will allow it to be controlled realistically for the rider. And that is all I'm saying about certain aids being used simply because they have to use one or two aids due to controller issues.
But what the "no-aids" advocates here seem to want, is to alter the playing field to their own benefit? They want no-aids but then again they want to keep the aids that allow them to ride well(ie, the virtual rider).... When you break this debate down, it's just all a little hypocritical don't you think?  :P

All I'm saying is guys, that there are bikes, particularly classic bikes, that unless you have a controller of the likes of DD's controller, then it's almost impossible to control everything manually without one or two aids(as I say, particularly on the classic bikes). With no aids, a classic bike needs for instance throttle blipping to allow for a smooth transition of gear changes and be able to handle the bike well; who can honestly tell me that they use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when they change gears? I doubt anyone can honestly say they do that. So I just think that until proper controllers are easily available to everyone that some sensible allowances need to be made, particularly for the "Shift Help" option.

BTW: Who here actually knows what "Shift Help" actually does as and aid?".

Hawk.
PS: I wish Piboso would simulate gearbox failures, so that riders who abuse a gearbox(like changing down gears without throttle blipping or clutch operation, especially on the classic bikes) would result in an eventual gearbox failure. I also think the slipper clutch simulation needs tweaking/tuning because I'm pretty sure that doesn't work as it should in reality either?
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 10:32:19 am
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.

The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 10:33:20 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 am
But what the "no-aids" advocates here seem to want, is to alter the playing field to their own benefit? They want no-aids but then again they want to keep the aids that allow them to ride well(ie, the virtual rider).... When you break this debate down, it's just all a little hypocritical don't you think?  :P

One could say the same about you: you want no aids except shift help because you cannot use full manual clutch.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 am
All I'm saying is guys, that there are bikes, particularly classic bikes, that unless you have a controller of the likes of DD's controller, then it's almost impossible to control everything manually without one or two aids(as I say, particularly on the classic bikes). With no aids, a classic bike needs for instance throttle blipping to allow for a smooth transition of gear changes and be able to handle the bike well; who can honestly tell me that they use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when they change gears? I doubt anyone can honestly say they do that. So I just think that until proper controllers are easily available to everyone that some sensible allowances need to be made, particularly for the "Shift Help" option.


Especially on classic bikes, you should be obliged to use the clutch to shift down (blipping or not is then up to you, on 2 strokes it may be less necessary).
Shifting up, just lifting the throttle a bit should be enough.

Manual shift is not too hard on a joypad: you just have to put the clutch control somewhere and coordinate your fingers.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 am
BTW: Who here actually knows what "Shift Help" actually does as and aid?".

If I recall correctly, it lifts the throttle a bit to allow you to shift up without using the clutch, which is the proper way to shift up for (race) bikes without seamless gearboxes or shifters.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:08:05 am
PS: I wish Piboso would simulate gearbox failures, so that riders who abuse a gearbox(like changing down gears without throttle blipping or clutch operation, especially on the classic bikes).

I wish it too, but I don't get your reasoning: if he does that then you will need shift help even more (actually he would probably need to improve shift help to also help shifting down).
So you would like people using no shift help to be punished when they abuse the gearbox while you, with shift help, you will have no problem at all ?
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:34:12 am
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 10:32:19 am
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.

The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??


I definitely agree with you mate, but what aids do you use?  :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
At the moment we are restricted to what limitations can be set in the server anyway. More control of which assists can be selected on the server has been asked (many) times before and i like to believe it is on the to-do list tho obviously there are more pressing multiplayer issues higher up that list.

Setting hardcore servers has been done before and guess what....hardly anyone uses them. If a DST only server was even possible it would need calling 'Ghosttown' lol.

Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Stout Johnson on August 22, 2017, 11:17:30 am
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in.

When PeterV and myself organized the Skeet Skeet onboard only events 'back in the days', there were more than 3 people participating ; ) so I think it could be possible. There are a few riders that can race onboard and 3rd person but choose to ride mainly 3rd person in order to be on equal terms with the 3rd person riders. The good thing about the onboard only events was, that it seemed to minimize the differences between riders, we had pretty similar paces among the riders, which made for more interesting riding imo.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
@Max: Your misunderstanding me Max. I'm not here to say that aids should or shouldn't be used, and I'm all for a hardcore server being setup for those that want and are able to practice the hardcore element of riding in GPB, I'm all for it 100%!  ;D 8)

What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

BTW: Your wrong partly about "Shift Help" action in GPB: it also operates a clutch action too during a gear change.
Also anyone who downshifts gears on the classic bikes without throttle blipping and a clutch action, even racing bikes, is in great danger of abusing the gearbox and risking a gearbox failure as well as issues with engine braking, etc.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the modern bikes also have clutch and throttle blip programmed into the electronic action of a gear downshift change in modern racing bikes? The throttle blip is required to help smooth out that downshift transition so that the engine speed doesn't cause issues with engine braking and locking the rear wheel; this also helps greatly in the bikes handling of downshifts so that it doesn't unbalance the bikes handling during that action.

It's true that with shift help a gearbox failure should be unlikely, but if a rider has mastered the manual use of the clutch and throttle then the same is true for that rider too in using a manual operation; if that rider decides to try and gain a speed of operation factor by abusing the gearbox and not properly operating his manual clutch and throttle actions then that's their decision and risk they take.... that is a risk the "Shift Help" users cannot take advantage of. Plus there are many advantages for a rider who can use a manual clutch to control, like controlling the application of power and rear wheel slides, etc, etc that a rider using "Shift Help" alone cannot do.... so any advantages/disadvantages even out in my opinion, though modern riders probably wouldn't know anything about that with relying on computers to operate their modern machines. Lol! Sorry! I just couldn't resist a little dig at the modern riders and their electronic controlled bikes!  ;D ;D

But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all..... I believe the answer would be no one. So come on guys, let's not be hypocrites.... like it or not, we all use riding aids in GPB. That's all I'm saying as a devils advocate here. No disrespect intended to anyone, but let's all at least be honest about who uses riding aids and who doesn't instead of riders thinking they ride without rider aids when in fact they do use rider aids in GPB, eh. ;D


Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 22, 2017, 11:41:09 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 amWhat I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

But they don't require that currently.

edit:
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 amif that rider decides to try and gain a speed of operation factor by abusing the gearbox and not properly operating his manual clutch and throttle actions

You don't gain any speed, though. Shifting on the classic bikes without cutting or blipping the throttle will usually send the rear tyre into a (small) slide and cost you time. That was the reason I started doing it manually in the first place...
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 11:43:16 am
Quote from: Stout Johnson on August 22, 2017, 11:17:30 am
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in.

When PeterV and myself organized the Skeet Skeet onboard only events 'back in the days', there were more than 3 people participating ; ) so I think it could be possible. There are a few riders that can race onboard and 3rd person but choose to ride mainly 3rd person in order to be on equal terms with the 3rd person riders. The good thing about the onboard only events was, that it seemed to minimize the differences between riders, we had pretty similar paces among the riders, which made for more interesting riding imo.


When i organised it last year we had about 3 or 4. Admittedly PETER is better looking though.

Exactly the reason i started 3rd person riding after struggling through the M3 championship a long time ago - to get on even terms quicker.

But i still get more enjoyment and thrill riding 1p.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:45:29 am
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
At the moment we are restricted to what limitations can be set in the server anyway. More control of which assists can be selected on the server has been asked (many) times before and i like to believe it is on the to-do list tho obviously there are more pressing multiplayer issues higher up that list.

Setting hardcore servers has been done before and guess what....hardly anyone uses them. If a DST only server was even possible it would need calling 'Ghosttown' lol.

Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)


+1  ;) 8)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Grooveski on August 22, 2017, 12:12:34 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all.....


Now we're talking. 
...he says - seeing the tiniest glimmer of hope.   ;D

Funnily enough my rider control goes all to pot when I go 1st person.  When we done Knockhill it took half a dozen laps before I stopped making the rider errors that I'd already ironed out ages before in 3rd person.  Brain overload!
Once I got more used to the onboard view I could concentrate more on the rider and by the end it was starting to come together but at first is was chaos.
Harder than riding a real bike - that's for sure  ;) - more like patting your head - rubbing your tummy - dancing a jig and whistling dixie...
...while riding a bike.   :P
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 12:14:06 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 22, 2017, 11:41:09 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 amWhat I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

But they don't require that currently.


True. But as a rider your aim is to ride the bikes in GPB as you would in reality, yes?  :)
Also if you don't ride bikes as they should be rode in reality then as a simulation something should break or you shouldn't be able to ride fast, or you should crash..... Basically something adverse should happen to stifle your performance if you're not riding a bike how it should be ridden.  :)

Do you use a fully manual clutch and throttle-blipping action when downshifting on the Classic bikes? If not then your not riding those bikes as they should be ridden. This is why I'd like to see a gearbox failure for abuse of gearbox downshift changes for the classic bikes, as would happen in reality.
Yes you can currently get away with abusing the gearbox downshifts in the classic category in GPB, but in reality the gearbox would very likely break, besides the fact that your operating the bike in error and something you wouldn't be able to get away with in reality.  :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 12:27:47 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 22, 2017, 12:12:34 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
But yeah let's go for it - a hardcore server with no-aids allowed, even no virtual rider aid and see who has really been using no aids at all.....


Now we're talking. 
...he says - seeing the tiniest glimmer of hope.   ;D

Funnily enough my rider control goes all to pot when I go 1st person.  When we done Knockhill it took half a dozen laps before I stopped making the rider errors that I'd already ironed out ages before in 3rd person.  Brain overload!
Once I got more used to the onboard view I could concentrate more on the rider and by the end it was starting to come together but at first is was chaos.
Harder than riding a real bike - that's for sure  ;) - more like patting your head - rubbing your tummy - dancing a jig and whistling dixie...
...while riding a bike.   :P


Brings back memories of when I was trying 1st person riding for the first time Groove. Lol!  ;D

I'd love for us all to ride in 1st person only, and especially with no aids at all if and when current restrictions with certain controllers allow that to happen.  :)
Currently I use a joystick to control GPB bikes, and I find it impossible to use a fully manual clutch and throttle blip action when changing down through the gears..... Manual control of the rider would just be about possible at the risk of major cramps in my hands due to the way I would have to hold the joystick(OH my! I can see all the dirty jokes coming now! Hehe!).  ;D

But I think GPB Beta 11 is probably the best version so far for anyone who wants to give 1st person riding a try for sure!  ;D 8)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 01:57:25 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

Joypad => problem solved, you can use manual clutch.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
BTW: Your wrong partly about "Shift Help" action in GPB: it also operates a clutch action too during a gear change.

Could be. How did you verify that ? Debug mode ?

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
Plus there are many advantages for a rider who can use a manual clutch to control, like controlling the application of power and rear wheel slides, etc, etc that a rider using "Shift Help" alone cannot do....

That's wrong. You're mixing "using shift help" with "using manual clutch".
You can have shift help ON and still use manual clutch (not sure if that really allows you to have any advantage though).

What you are saying is: I cannot use manual clutch (because my controller doesn't allow me to do so), so shift help is not cheating. On the other hand, 3rd person view is cheating.

It's inconsistent, even from a "sim-fan" point of view: you ask for 1st person as it's the true way to us the sim, but then you say "sorry, I can't use manual clutch, give me shift help" ?! It sounds strange.

I'd be happy with:


Once that is in place, people could really say: hardcore = shift help off. And it will be hard to fight that.
Today there's not much point as shift help ON or OFF you can still downshift like a pig at no cost.

P.S.
If I recall correctly, GPB gearbox sim had other issues too (like not allowing to downshift when a reverse torque is applied from the wheel to the engine and the clutch is disengaged).
I think PiBoSo himself once stated gearbox sim could enjoy some attention from him :)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 02:15:31 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:34:12 am
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 10:32:19 am
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.
The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??

I definitely agree with you mate, but what aids do you use?  :)

Shift help only ^^

Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
...
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)

Wait ! What ?? !!!   I was thinking that the great majority of riders were using 1st P.  Still, I don't think 3rdP gives any advantage.


To talk about clutch. Clutch is not mandatory to upshift nor downshift on a real bike. It is just very uncomfortable and hard to downshift without, but still doable.
Anyway, I tried the option 'preload' and it does nothing. Also, with zero aids, GPB seems to help you with changing gear... Strange

Also, I would recommend to keep shift help on because once you stall your bike, you cannot restart it unless you reset your bike ! Too bad !
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: -aGy- on August 22, 2017, 03:01:32 pm
3rd p cam gives you some advantage for sure. 1st p cam is the way to go if you truly want simulator experience! but everybody play like they play.maybe someday we have online stats/timing which shows what view do you use on your fastlaps because times between 1stp and 3stp can not be compared.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 01:57:25 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
What I am saying to those who consider aids in GPB a cheat is that there are riders who due to controller limitations cannot ride in GPB without at least one rider aid, namely the "Shift Help" aid if they are riding the classic bikes that need a manual throttle and clutch action when changing down gears.

Joypad => problem solved, you can use manual clutch.

Joypad is rubbish.... sticks are too small a movement for a given distance so you can't get a really smooth small precise action. If I was going to change I would buy an HS2 from DD.  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 01:57:25 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
BTW: Your wrong partly about "Shift Help" action in GPB: it also operates a clutch action too during a gear change.

Could be. How did you verify that ? Debug mode ?


Yes.
One other thing I did note in debug mode, was that the slipper clutch partially disengaging the main clutch either isn't simulated or not showing in debug mode on the clutch engage/disengage bar - This has been reported to Piboso but not acknowledged.
My intention was to use the debug mode to get the ideal slipper clutch settings but no can do with it how it is currently. :(

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 01:57:25 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 11:37:29 am
Plus there are many advantages for a rider who can use a manual clutch to control, like controlling the application of power and rear wheel slides, etc, etc that a rider using "Shift Help" alone cannot do....

That's wrong. You're mixing "using shift help" with "using manual clutch".
You can have shift help ON and still use manual clutch (not sure if that really allows you to have any advantage though).

What you are saying is: I cannot use manual clutch (because my controller doesn't allow me to do so), so shift help is not cheating. On the other hand, 3rd person view is cheating.

It's inconsistent, even from a "sim-fan" point of view: you ask for 1st person as it's the true way to us the sim, but then you say "sorry, I can't use manual clutch, give me shift help" ?! It sounds strange.

I'd be happy with:

  • Upshifting requiring to use the clutch or lift the throttle, unless the bike has a shifter

  • Downshifting requiring to use the clutch, unless the bike has as seamless gearbox

  • If Shift Help is ON, then you can upshift and downshift freely (even if the bike has no shifter/seamless). Ideally it should make you lose a bit of time (like the Auto Shift does) compared to a "perfect" shift.



Once that is in place, people could really say: hardcore = shift help off. And it will be hard to fight that.
Today there's not much point as shift help ON or OFF you can still downshift like a pig at no cost.

P.S.
If I recall correctly, GPB gearbox sim had other issues too (like not allowing to downshift when a reverse torque is applied from the wheel to the engine and the clutch is disengaged).
I think PiBoSo himself once stated gearbox sim could enjoy some attention from him :)


No I'm not wrong. Lol! ;D A rider who only uses Shift Help and cannot use manual clutch (only able to use shift help) doesn't have the benefits of a rider who is able to use a manual clutch control.
But like you say, you can use a manual clutch too(if possible) which will override the shift help clutch action(I believe it's the same for the throttle blip action too when using manual throttle to throttle-blip?).  :)

Totally agree with you on 1-3 there, but disagree with you about purposely providing a disadvantage on a shift help gear change by making it more time consuming than what would be a normal rider gear change speed for that bike..... Don't get me wrong, no one is saying to make it a perfect gear change speed, but then that's what the modern day electronics do for riders today anyway. Lol. But you can't penalise riders who need an aid just because they have to use it; something like that is not going to make a terrific difference for most riders performance anyway so why even think of penalising them for using something they have to use. It's like saying that riders who use auto-gear shifting should be penalised for using that aid? Well any racer knows that being able to change gears when you want to change them is a massive advantage over the bike automatically changing gears at certain rev limits, so the auto-gear change is a BIG disadvantage anyway.... same with all the other aids when you compare them to someone who has took the time and practice to learn how to use the fully manual controls; so again I ask why even think of penalising rider aid users? Madness when you think about it properly. :P

Oh! BTW.... If you want proof of just how much a proper clutch controller helps, have a talk with Matty(who uses an HS2 controller), he can rocket off the start grid as though he's got nitro in his tank. LOL! But that demonstrates that normal controllers haven't got that delicate precise control you need in your clutch lever action when using gamepads or other normal game controllers like you have with a real manual clutch lever. In fact you can hear the struggle of riders trying to manually operate their clutch properly off the start grids, it's so obvious that they are having issues with controlling the manual clutch smoothly at all with a game-pad or similar device.  :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:39:30 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 02:15:31 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 10:34:12 am
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 10:32:19 am
Funny, I'm faster in 1st P than in 3rd P. And I think the same apply to a lot of riders.
The idea is good, but the best is to be faster in 1P than other people in 3rdp, no ??

I definitely agree with you mate, but what aids do you use?  :)

Shift help only ^^

Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 22, 2017, 10:42:36 am
...
Personally i am still waiting for a 1st person only championship that more than about 3 people would take part in. Then we can all be amazed at Warlocks outstanding ability. #Hero  :)

Wait ! What ?? !!!   I was thinking that the great majority of riders were using 1st P.  Still, I don't think 3rdP gives any advantage.


To talk about clutch. Clutch is not mandatory to upshift nor downshift on a real bike. It is just very uncomfortable and hard to downshift without, but still doable.
Anyway, I tried the option 'preload' and it does nothing. Also, with zero aids, GPB seems to help you with changing gear... Strange

Also, I would recommend to keep shift help on because once you stall your bike, you cannot restart it unless you reset your bike ! Too bad !


You may get away with it on a modern bike, but would you do that on a classic bike? I certainly wouldn't let anyone ride my classic bike if they thought downshifting without using a clutch and throttle blip was an okay think to do, beside the fact that given 2-3 laps you'd more than likely have wrecked the gearbox too.

Agree that you can upshift on even a classic bike without using the clutch if you know what your doing, but it's still not a recommended thing to do, and also something that if you look at the old classic racing vids on youtube you can see them operating the clutch to change both up and down with throttle blipping. Plus as an ex-racer(1980's), I never heard of anyone recommending to change down through the gears without using the clutch on the old classic racing bikes; it would've been considered irresponsible and wreckless because of the damage it would do to the gearbox.
Have you tried throttle blipping and changing down gears without using a clutch on a classic bike? Good luck with that. Lol ;D

But yeah for sure on these modern electronic pieces of crap people buy nowadays I'm sure you can change up and down gears without using a clutch or even throttle blip; that's not a real bike though... it's a toy! Lol!  ;D ;D

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 04:16:17 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
One other thing I did note in debug mode, was that the slipper clutch partially disengaging the main clutch either isn't simulated or not showing in debug mode on the clutch engage/disengage bar

I think debug mode only shows the rider inputs (i.e. clutch lever) + helps / ecu stuff. The slipper clutch is mechanical, so it's not shown. Makes sense to me (but i understand you'd like to have it shown).

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 01:57:25 pm
Joypad => problem solved, you can use manual clutch.

Joypad is rubbish.... sticks are too small a movement for a given distance so you can't get a really smooth small precise action.

A tons of players using joypads are proving every minute that you you're wrong on this. A joypad feels not smooth enough to you, because you're so accustomed to your joystick.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
No I'm not wrong. Lol! ;D A rider who only uses Shift Help and cannot use manual clutch (only able to use shift help) doesn't have the benefits of a rider who is able to use a manual clutch control.

Yes you are. If you were right, then somebody could say "my control device doesn't allow me to use a steering input: can I have auto-steer?". Or auto breake. Or auto throttle.
The fact you can't use manual clutch is your decision: if you were using a joypad (like the vast majority) or dd's system (like the vast minority) you'd have no issue.
But you want to use a joystick, so ...

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
It's like saying that riders who use auto-gear shifting should be penalised for using that aid? Well any racer knows that being able to change gears when you want to change them is a massive advantage over the bike automatically changing gears at certain rev limits, so the auto-gear change is a BIG disadvantage anyway.... same with all the other aids when you compare them to someone who has took the time and practice to learn how to use the fully manual controls; so again I ask why even think of penalising rider aid users?

I'm not asking to penalise more: auto-shift already penalise you enough. All the other helps too, except shift help: this one doesn't penalise you at all.
So if GPB gearbox simulation was closer to reality (i.e. need for clutch to downshift on non-seamless bikes) I'd say that either one takes the time to master the usage of the clutch, or he is forced to use shift help, but with a (reasonably sized) penalty. Just like all other helps in GPB.

Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:21:59 pm
Oh! BTW.... If you want proof of just how much a proper clutch controller helps, have a talk with Matty(who uses an HS2 controller), he can rocket off the start grid as though he's got nitro in his tank. LOL! But that demonstrates that normal controllers haven't got that delicate precise control you need in your clutch lever action when using gamepads or other normal game controllers like you have with a real manual clutch lever. In fact you can hear the struggle of riders trying to manually operate their clutch properly off the start grids, it's so obvious that they are having issues with controlling the manual clutch smoothly at all with a game-pad or similar device.  :)

It may be for the clutch, but I guess we can all agree Alibaskin, davide74  and plenty of other fast riders have zero issues in riding fast with joypads.

You use a joystick and you think that this gives you an advantage in leaning and throttle/braking precision but as far as I can see, this is totally marginal (if there at all).
And the price to pay is not having manual clutch (plus probably some weird configuration for throttle and brakes). Bad trade-off, if you ask me, but if it suits you it's OK.

I'm just saying that asking for hardcore to allow shift help because you "need" it sounds very wrong when your need comes from the fact you use an "exotic" controller (exotic compared to the standard, which for GPB is a joypad).

Cheezus man, it's the clutch, not some minor control of a bike ... you especially (with your passion for classic bikes) you should be all for having a real clutch control.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 05:03:51 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 22, 2017, 03:39:30 pm

Agree that you can upshift on even a classic bike without using the clutch if you know what your doing, bla bla bla bla bla
But yeah for sure on these modern electronic pieces of crap people buy nowadays I'm sure you can change up and down gears without using a clutch or even throttle blip; that's not a real bike though... it's a toy! Lol!  ;D ;D


Of course it is not a good thing to do. I'm just pointing out that it is doable. And, you cannot downshift if you don't blip a little.
For the upshift tho, what does an electronic shifter ? It just cut the throttle and don't act on the clutch.

Anyway, the load option doesn't work and you cannot start a bike by rolling it and lift the clutch while engaged.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 05:10:29 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 05:03:51 pm
Anyway, the load option doesn't work and you cannot start a bike by rolling it and lift the clutch while engaged.

The preload option is a bit of a mistery to me too, especially for bikes. I've never heard of manually pre-engaging a gear on bikes (and to be honest on cars neither, maybe it's a kart thing, don't know).
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 05:23:57 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 05:10:29 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 05:03:51 pm
Anyway, the load option doesn't work and you cannot start a bike by rolling it and lift the clutch while engaged.

The preload option is a bit of a mistery to me too, especially for bikes. I've never heard of manually pre-engaging a gear on bikes (and to be honest on cars neither, maybe it's a kart thing, don't know).

What I understand when I read this option is that you can shift gears 'on fly' like IRL. You put some pressure on the shift pedal and keep it. The moment you release the gas, the next gear engage and the pedal click a little bit. Then you release the pedal and can do it again. It can be possible with a game controller. Hold the upshift button but nothing happens. Quickly release the gas and the shift engage. Now you can still hold, or release the button when you want.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 08:28:28 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 22, 2017, 05:23:57 pm
What I understand when I read this option is that you can shift gears 'on fly' like IRL. You put some pressure on the shift pedal and keep it. The moment you release the gas, the next gear engage and the pedal click a little bit. Then you release the pedal and can do it again. It can be possible with a game controller. Hold the upshift button but nothing happens. Quickly release the gas and the shift engage. Now you can still hold, or release the button when you want.

But do you actually do that in real life on a bike ?
It doesn't sound any faster than doing it the usual way (release the gas a bit and slam the next gear in).
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 22, 2017, 09:18:39 pm
OK, so I had a quick check at Shift Help (with both the murasama and the varese). Right now, I don't see why in hell one would use it, except for cosmetic reasons.



So bottom line: as GPB allows to shift down with no clutch anyway, at the moment there's zero reason to use shift help, no matter if you're on the murasama or on the varese.

The day GPB requires to use the clutch to shift down (except for bikes with seamless gearboxes), the you'll have either to use shift help (which is slower, good) or to use your clutch. So hardcore people could say "no shift help thanks".
And I think on bikes with no shifter you should have to lift the throttle to shift up: this seems to be already coded in GPB (as the gearbox has a DisengageMaxTorque parameter) but I don't thikn it works as expected.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
@Max: There are also settings for the speed of disengaging and engaging the clutch during the shift help phase. There are also settings for the time span and percentage of throttle to blip during the shift help phase. I for one would rather set those values at realistic values rather than arcadey values to penalise anyone using shift help.
With your way of thinking on penalising shift help users, then why not penalise auto-rider users by making the auto-rider move slower than you can with manual rider operation? Same with other aids too? See... it doesn't make sense in a simulator; I'd rather have realistic operation no matter whether it's an aid in use or not, and then have a server admin option to turn off all the aids individually at their discretion; that would be the way to police the use of rider aids properly.

But I agree with you that the shift help aid and gearbox needs looking into because of the different requirements between modern day bikes compared to the classic bikes with which a rider should have to use a manual throttle and clutch action, particularly during the downshift phases, if they don't use shift help.
But surely the breakable gearbox would solve this issue and make riders realise they have to be careful with the gearbox when riding classic bikes and gearshift properly for the bike they are riding? Just make the gearbox wear rate shoot up during a bad downshift or upshift action when using manual clutch and throttle.

Also the "Auto-Clutch" settings on many bikemods are purposely set so that, when used, a bike is VERY slow to get away(I'm sure you set those up Max! Hehe! ;D ). But again, there is no reason for doing that; a rider using a manual clutch has such a massive advantage over auto-clutch off the start grid that no matter how good you set the auto-clutch you could never get away better than a rider who knows how to use a manual clutch off the start grid, but as it is in most cases now, the auto-clutches are being set for such a slow get away that riders using them are often left a grid length behind at the start.... Just crazy way of thinking.
Just to set the auto-clutches at a reasonable get-away pace would be good enough; I'm not saying set them so they are equal to those who get a good start of the grid using manual clutches, but a good average would be more sensible than a crawl, plus at the same time it would probably help reduce start grid collisions with the slow start auto-clutch users.

But yeah, I do agree that these things need looking at.  :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
@Max: There are also settings for the speed of disengaging and engaging the clutch during the shift help phase. There are also settings for the time span and percentage of throttle to blip during the shift help phase. I for one would rather set those values at realistic values rather than arcadey values to penalise anyone using shift help.

I'll have to double check, but I think there are two groups of settings: on group is for the gearbox (+eventual shifter) and one for shift help. Of course the first group must be set to realistic values. My point is on the second: a player that chooses to use shift help should have slower shifts than a (good) player not using shift help. And it's currently like that.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
With your way of thinking on penalising shift help users, then why not penalise auto-rider users by making the auto-rider move slower than you can with manual rider operation? Same with other aids too? See... it doesn't make sense in a simulator; I'd rather have realistic operation no matter whether it's an aid in use or not, and then have a server admin option to turn off all the aids individually at their discretion; that would be the way to police the use of rider aids properly.

But it's *already* like that !! Rider auto lean fwd/back penalises you for example, because it has a fairly silly strategy (tuck-in only if throttle open and above whichever speed).
Other aids too makes you slower (auto breake, auto shift etc) even more.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
But I agree with you that the shift help aid and gearbox needs looking into because of the different requirements between modern day bikes compared to the classic bikes with which a rider should have to use a manual throttle and clutch action, particularly during the downshift phases, if they don't use shift help.

But surely the breakable gearbox would solve this issue and make riders realise they have to be careful with the gearbox when riding classic bikes and gearshift properly for the bike they are riding? Just make the gearbox wear rate shoot up during a bad downshift or upshift action when using manual clutch and throttle.

But then you do see the problem I hope: a rider that choses to go manual has the risk of breaking the gearbox while a lazy boy like you :) using shift help has zero risk.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
Also the "Auto-Clutch" settings on many bikemods are purposely set so that, when used, a bike is VERY slow to get away(I'm sure you set those up Max! Hehe! ;D ).

Right. And I like it like that. On a bike, you need a clutch (let's forget about launch control :) ).

And anyway, why do you use shift help at the moment ? Even on the varese, it's really not needed.

Out of curiosity, what do you exactly use as controller ? Which axes are mapped to what ?
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
@Max: There are also settings for the speed of disengaging and engaging the clutch during the shift help phase. There are also settings for the time span and percentage of throttle to blip during the shift help phase. I for one would rather set those values at realistic values rather than arcadey values to penalise anyone using shift help.

I'll have to double check, but I think there are two groups of settings: on group is for the gearbox (+eventual shifter) and one for shift help. Of course the first group must be set to realistic values. My point is on the second: a player that chooses to use shift help should have slower shifts than a (good) player not using shift help. And it's currently like that.


It's only like that if the bikemod author sets it like that... In my opinion they should be set to realistic timings(an average factor, as each rider in reality will be slightly different in the speed they change gears manually).

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
With your way of thinking on penalising shift help users, then why not penalise auto-rider users by making the auto-rider move slower than you can with manual rider operation? Same with other aids too? See... it doesn't make sense in a simulator; I'd rather have realistic operation no matter whether it's an aid in use or not, and then have a server admin option to turn off all the aids individually at their discretion; that would be the way to police the use of rider aids properly.

But it's *already* like that !! Rider auto lean fwd/back penalises you for example, because it has a fairly silly strategy (tuck-in only if throttle open and above whichever speed).
Other aids too makes you slower (auto breake, auto shift etc) even more.


That's only because currently the auto aids are not as functional in comparison to the manual operations, so naturally auto aids are already at a big disadvantage, so why make them poorer in operation when they are already a penalty compared to manual operation? That's presuming you want to make all auto aids very much slower in operation than what would be considered reality?

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
But I agree with you that the shift help aid and gearbox needs looking into because of the different requirements between modern day bikes compared to the classic bikes with which a rider should have to use a manual throttle and clutch action, particularly during the downshift phases, if they don't use shift help.

But surely the breakable gearbox would solve this issue and make riders realise they have to be careful with the gearbox when riding classic bikes and gearshift properly for the bike they are riding? Just make the gearbox wear rate shoot up during a bad downshift or upshift action when using manual clutch and throttle.

But then you do see the problem I hope: a rider that choses to go manual has the risk of breaking the gearbox while a lazy boy like you :) using shift help has zero risk.


Let's get things into perspective here...... Just like in reality, if a rider uses a clutch and throttle properly when changing gears then there is little chance of breaking the gearbox, so it would only be those riders that purposely abuse the gearbox that a failure would be likely, so that would be their own fault and not a consequence of being at a disadvantage to the auto-aid user. So you've no argument there.  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 11:20:12 am
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:00:56 am
Also the "Auto-Clutch" settings on many bikemods are purposely set so that, when used, a bike is VERY slow to get away(I'm sure you set those up Max! Hehe! ;D ).

Right. And I like it like that. On a bike, you need a clutch (let's forget about launch control :) ).

And anyway, why do you use shift help at the moment ? Even on the varese, it's really not needed.

Out of curiosity, what do you exactly use as controller ? Which axes are mapped to what ?


Oh! Don't get me going with bloody launch control! Hehe! We should go back to push starts in my opinion.... That would be so much more of a spectacle for the spectators, don't you think? ;D

If your not using fully manual clutch and throttle controls to operate the 2 stroke varese then you should have to use shift help with that bike for it to ride smoothly and handle well. There is no way in hell you would be able to ride a 2 stroke well with no risk of failures without using the clutch and throttle properly on the classic 2 stroke bikes(they didn't have electronics or quick shifters). For some reason Piboso has put a quickshifter on the Varese - ERROR!  :P

The four strokes a different matter altogether because they had the electronics to do that work for you, as well as TC(Pfff! Pussies).  :P  ;D

Controller I use: Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. I've my lean on the left/right joystick axis and the throttle set to forward axis and brake set on the back axis of the joystick. All other buttons on the joystick assembly are on/off buttons not analogue..... I could set my clutch on the Throttle assembly of my joystick unit which is a totally separate piece of kit, but as I hold the main joystick assembly in my hand to operate it that is not possible.
But I have tried gamepads and even have an xbox controller too, but I like smooth predictable precision movements and they don't provide it by a long way because the sticks movement of the bike lean angles is too much for the little travel they have, and I also like the angle of the stick to represent the angle of the bike when I operate it; that's my frame of reference.  :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
I'm fine with current aids (just think the current auto-rider lean fwd/back looks ugly), I think they penalise you enough.
And for sure I don't want them to be made more efficient, even if it was possible. But I think that saying "hardcore must allow shift help" makes no sense.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Let's get things into perspective here...... Just like in reality, if a rider uses a clutch and throttle properly when changing gears then there is little chance of breaking the gearbox, so it would only be those riders that purposely abuse the gearbox that a failure would be likely, so that would be their own fault and not a consequence of being at a disadvantage to the auto-aid user. So you've no argument there.  ;)

Unless properly using the clutch to shift down (and the throttle to shift up) involves some degree of skill, which is likely. In that case, shift help kind of negates that. Hence the people that are in favor of saying "hardcore = no shift help".

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
If your not using fully manual clutch and throttle controls to operate the 2 stroke varese then you should have to use shift help with that bike for it to ride smoothly and handle well. There is no way in hell you would be able to ride a 2 stroke well with no risk of failures without using the clutch and throttle properly on the classic 2 stroke bikes(they didn't have electronics or quick shifters).

You don't need the clutch to shift up, you just need to lift the throttle. Even on a 2 strokes.

BTW, you forgot to answer that:
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Out of curiosity, what do you exactly use as controller ? Which axes are mapped to what ?

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
I'm fine with current aids (just think the current auto-rider lean fwd/back looks ugly), I think they penalise you enough.
And for sure I don't want them to be made more efficient, even if it was possible. But I think that saying "hardcore must allow shift help" makes no sense.


Who said anything about hardcore must allow shift-help? All I've been saying is that if you DON'T use manual operation of the clutch and throttle on certain bikes then you should have to use the shift help option for that bike to ride/function/handle properly, as should be the case with the classic bikes........ We all know that with the modern bikes you can just twist the throttle and the electronics will do everything else for you.  :P ;D

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Let's get things into perspective here...... Just like in reality, if a rider uses a clutch and throttle properly when changing gears then there is little chance of breaking the gearbox, so it would only be those riders that purposely abuse the gearbox that a failure would be likely, so that would be their own fault and not a consequence of being at a disadvantage to the auto-aid user. So you've no argument there.  ;)

Unless properly using the clutch to shift down (and the throttle to shift up) involves some degree of skill, which is likely. In that case, shift help kind of negates that. Hence the people that are in favor of saying "hardcore = no shift help".


Totally agree Max, in fact there is more skill involved than obviously some realise in the way a rider can use the manual clutch to operate the bike and the way it handles during the gearshift phases(Electronics have taken away all this knowledge from riders these days it seems if you have to wonder if it's "likely" that a rider requires skill in the use of a manual clutch to get the best out of it.  :) ).... But at least the shift help option would be there for those that NEED it, yes?  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
If your not using fully manual clutch and throttle controls to operate the 2 stroke varese then you should have to use shift help with that bike for it to ride smoothly and handle well. There is no way in hell you would be able to ride a 2 stroke well with no risk of failures without using the clutch and throttle properly on the classic 2 stroke bikes(they didn't have electronics or quick shifters).

You don't need the clutch to shift up, you just need to lift the throttle. Even on a 2 strokes.


That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.

PS: Updated previous post with my controller info.  ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 pm
That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.

We're talking about races here: in 500cc they were not using the clutch to shift up as far as I remember.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Controller I use: Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. I've my lean on the left/right joystick axis and the throttle set to forward axis and brake set on the back axis of the joystick. All other buttons on the joystick assembly are on/off buttons not analogue..... I could set my clutch on the Throttle assembly of my joystick unit which is a totally separate piece of kit, but as I hold the main joystick assembly in my hand to operate it that is not possible.
But I have tried gamepads and even have an xbox controller too, but I like smooth predictable precision movements and they don't provide it by a long way because the sticks movement of the bike lean angles is too much for the little travel they have, and I also like the angle of the stick to represent the angle of the bike when I operate it; that's my frame of reference.  :)


You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

For joypads, I can use a stick for bike lean with direct lean at 100% with no problem. And I'm no special.

With your setup you're just making your life way harder and you have no clutch and rear brake (both analog).

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 01:20:42 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.


Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...
(so on some bikes I flick on shift help for the blip)
...and can't do burnouts.   :(

But that's about it in the way of problems - 'close to suicide' is laying it on a little strong.   ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 01:45:25 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 pm
That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.

We're talking about races here: in 500cc they were not using the clutch to shift up as far as I remember.


Here is an onboard view of King Kenny Roberts in action at Imola, riding the 1982 0W60 Yamaha 2 stroke Classic GP500 bike... Clearly shows him using the clutch for both up and downshift as well as the required throttle blipping and the odd missed gear.  ;D :

https://www.youtube.com/v/XhkZetCyaNs#t=96.1936825

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 am
Controller I use: Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. I've my lean on the left/right joystick axis and the throttle set to forward axis and brake set on the back axis of the joystick. All other buttons on the joystick assembly are on/off buttons not analogue..... I could set my clutch on the Throttle assembly of my joystick unit which is a totally separate piece of kit, but as I hold the main joystick assembly in my hand to operate it that is not possible.
But I have tried gamepads and even have an xbox controller too, but I like smooth predictable precision movements and they don't provide it by a long way because the sticks movement of the bike lean angles is too much for the little travel they have, and I also like the angle of the stick to represent the angle of the bike when I operate it; that's my frame of reference.  :)


You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

For joypads, I can use a stick for bike lean with direct lean at 100% with no problem. And I'm no special.

With your setup you're just making your life way harder and you have no clutch and rear brake (both analog).


Until I have the money spare to buy an HS2 controller from DD(with drop-racing bars) then I'd rather have precision smooth lean/throttle & front brake ability over anything else. Plus the fact that the rear brake is not much use anyway when your braking hard into a corner as all the weight is on the front end and the rear should be teetering almost off the ground at that point, so rear brake not much use to you there; but of course, a lot depends on your riding style......  I know Kevin Schwantz said he never used the rear brake at all on his 500 GP bike, same I believe with Kenny Roberts; both riders who adjusted their corner entry speeds before they peeled into the apex so didn't need to use any braking in the corner itself.  :)

But yeah I'm very used to it and it feels comfortable to control the bike well in comparison to a gamepad.  :P :)



Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 01:48:24 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 01:20:42 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.


Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...
(so on some bikes I flick on shift help for the blip)
...and can't do burnouts.   :(

But that's about it in the way of problems - 'close to suicide' is laying it on a little strong.   ;)


+1 Groove.  ;)

Sounds like we have very similar setups.  ;D ;)

Hawk.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 23, 2017, 02:19:07 pm
You are not damaging the gearbox when upshifting without the clutch, everybody does it. Otherwise quickshifters wouldn't be a thing.
That onboard video doesn't mean much, given that he is just cruising.

I have no idea how you can ride with that configuration but to each his own I guess.
BTW, rear brake is very useful coming out of corners, especially on bikes without electronics. Even MotoGP riders today use it to smooth out the power delivery.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:19:07 pm
You are not damaging the gearbox when upshifting without the clutch, everybody does it. Otherwise quickshifters wouldn't be a thing.
That onboard video doesn't mean much given that he is just cruising.

I have no idea how you can ride with that configuration but to each his own I guess.
BTW, rear brake is very useful coming out of corners, especially on bikes without electronics. Even MotoGP riders today use it to smooth out the power delivery.


Agreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)

How you use the rear brake is up to you.... each one to there own style as they say. But in GPB the rear brake usage in corners is a little exaggerated in comparison to it's real-life effect I would say?

Kenny maybe just cruising in that video, but a rider doesn't change his lifetime technique of changing gears just because he's cruising..... I'll try to find another vid of a rider actually racing a classic 2 stroke were it shows the manual actions of clutch/throttle, but back in those days they very rarely had on-board views simply because the camera technology wasn't around in those days. But I'll try and find a better example if I can and post it to demonstrate. :)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 pmAgreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)

There is no such thing as a "quickshifter gearbox". The guickshifter simply cuts the ignition when operating the gearshifter, the gearbox and clutch have nothing to do with that. So if "safe upshifting" really required the clutch, everyone who rides a bike with a quickshifter would have ruined his gearbox.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 pmBut in GPB the rear brake usage in corners is a little exaggerated in comparison to it's real-life effect I would say?

I have found little use for the rear brake mid corner but I use it on almost every corner exit on the more powerful bikes.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 pmKenny maybe just cruising in that video, but a rider doesn't change his lifetime technique of changing gears just because he's cruising.  :)

He may be because if you are not going flat out, shifting up without the clutch becomes much more tricky (I think because the torque differential is smaller?). Go and try it on a real bike: Go full throttle then upshift by cutting it completely and then attempt the same when only cruising at partial throttle. You will most likely mess up.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 02:58:33 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 pmAgreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)

There is no such thing as a "quickshifter gearbox". The guickshifter simply cuts the ignition when operating the gearshifter, the gearbox and clutch have nothing to do with that. So if "safe upshifting" really required the clutch, everyone who rides a bike with a quickshifter would have ruined his gearbox.

True ! I have an old GL 1100 from '82 and I can quick shift it without any problem. When does end the 'classic bike' era ??

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 pm
Go and try it on a real bike: Go full throttle then upshift by cutting it completely and then attempt the same when only cruising at partial throttle. You will most likely mess up.

Also true !!
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 03:26:36 pm
Agree with what your saying there about upshifting at lower speeds.... as I say, I'll try and find a vid of actual racing action from that era but it'll be hard to find I think. :-\
But no one is saying you "definitely" need to use the clutch on upshift(we already said that you can upshift without using a clutch), just that it's less stress on the gearbox by doing so. So no one is saying you have to use a clutch to upshift at all, just that it's advisable on the old classic bikes. :)

I think you are over simplifying the quickshifter process Vin. Certainly you are taking the process out of context in comparison to the old classic bikes manual gearshift change procedure:

Quote: "Since quick shifters dispense with the rider having to fiddle about with the clutch and throttle, we have to inform the engine and ECU of gear changes just as they happen. The way this is achieved in most cases is by simply replacing the gear shift rod with another gear shift rod incorporating a mechanical sensor, which is then connected to the ECU. Under acceleration, as your foot moves the gear shift lever upwards, this mechanical sensor informs the ECU of an impending gear change. The ECU either cuts the ignition or cuts fueling to the engine ever so briefly (as little as 15 milliseconds), to take the extreme inertial forces off the drivetrain just long enough to neatly slot the next gear into place with minimal fuss. This ECU intervention mimics the throttling off and on of our gear changes, but six times faster than we can perceive it and perfectly every time."

So the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 03:26:36 pmSo the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P

I don't see your point. The shifting process itself is exactly the same. If anything, a quickshifter should do even more harm because the timeframe is much smaller. So if a quickshifter doesn't harm your gearbox, manually shifting withouth the clutch will definitely not harm it.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 01:20:42 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 pm
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.


Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...

To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

With a joypad you can have the leaning on a stick and throttle+brake on the other stick (or, more usually, on the triggers).

Just my opinion of course, but I think having leaning and throttle/brake on separate sticks/triggers is a huge advantage and it more than offsets the extra precision a joystick gives you on the leaning (precision that disappears whenever you need to brake/accelerate while leaning).

Also, movements with a joystick are much slower: this is fine for leaning but it's totally not fine for throttle and brake.

P.S.
Years ago I've bought a T1600 just to give this setup a try and I've put it back in the box after 10 minutes. It's eating dust since.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).


Never been an issue - ever.   ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).


Never been an issue - ever.   ;)


Never been an issue for me neither. It's works perfect for me too(lean/brake/throttle that is for me).  ;)

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 03:26:36 pmSo the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P

I don't see your point. The shifting process itself is exactly the same. If anything, a quickshifter should do even more harm because the timeframe is much smaller. So if a quickshifter doesn't harm your gearbox, manually shifting withouth the clutch will definitely not harm it.


Well all I can say, Vin, is that if you think an electronically controlled gearshift process is the very same as a human controlled manual mechanical gearshift process(on a classic bike) then there is no point in our discussion continuing.  There is a massive difference in it's application in comparison to a fully mechanical human applied gearshift operation. The electronically controlled timing of shutting off the fuel or ignition and gear change timing for engine speed is way more perfect than any human could achieve on a consistent basis; if you think that is the same as a human making a fully mechanical gearshift then your seriously misunderstanding the process of both actions, but more importantly in relation to what were talking about here, the possible results of each action towards the wear and tear of a gearbox over the course of a race. :)

Electronic aided quickshift = Perfect every time with normal rate of wear to gearbox.

Human mechanical gearshift without clutch use on a classic bike = Inconsistent timing with the likely result of significant damage to the gearbox over the course of a race.

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: nuovaic on August 23, 2017, 05:56:47 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).


Never been an issue - ever.   ;)


No issue for me either. I find a joystick much more intuitive, more precise. I tried a xbox pad for 10 mins, been gathering dust since.

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Vini on August 23, 2017, 07:16:58 pm
Now you are the one oversimplifying things :D

If you read the quote on quickshifters again, you should realize that the mechanical shift process itself and therefore the gearbox wear is the same...
In both cases, the power is cut to allow a clutchless upshift and that is the only thing that is going on. No other tricky algorithms, mechanisms or whatever.
Being electronically controlled simply allows you to shorten that window where you have to cut the power, leading to faster lap times.
In other words, the electronics are not optimizing the mechanical action itself in any way.
When shifting up, there are only two outcomes: Gear engaged or gear not engaged. There is no inbetween (not counting forcefully hammering in a gear without cutting power obviously).
I think you are confusing it with electronically controlled downshifts (e.g. as part of a seamless gearbox), where the engine and wheel rpm can be matched perfectly (better than a human ever could), therefore reducing clutch and/or gearbox wear.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).


Never been an issue - ever.   ;)


Well then OK, if it fits your bill, keep on using it. I do think you're penalising yourself but that's OK.
In Hawk's case, it also prevents him from using manual clutch and rear brake. But again, it it's OK for you fine.

But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.

I totally agree on the "people are different" thing though.

P.S.
I actually tried they joystick for more than 10min but despite the fact that it is usable and that maybe with practice you can actually use it, I still thikn it's way harder and, most of all, that it sacrifices too much (clutch, rear brake, rider lean, ....). It's good for a flight sim though :) I know Hawk is a fan :P
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.


It's not a problem at all for me to go from front braking to full throttle quickly if required, though I'm not sure whenever you would want to do that? Usually after entering the corner after front braking your continually and gradually feeding the throttle in throughout the corner until you hit full throttle just after exit or thereabouts.  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
P.S.
I actually tried the joystick for more than 10min but despite the fact that it is usable and that maybe with practice you can actually use it, I still think it's way harder and, most of all, that it sacrifices too much (clutch, rear brake, rider lean, ....). It's good for a flight sim though :) I know Hawk is a fan :P


Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Yeah, I sacrifice those things but Groove doesn't.  He still operates rider lean, clutch and rear brake on a separately connected controller. ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 10:17:12 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 07:16:58 pm
Now you are the one oversimplifying things :D

If you read the quote on quickshifters again, you should realize that the mechanical shift process itself and therefore the gearbox wear is the same...
In both cases, the power is cut to allow a clutchless upshift and that is the only thing that is going on. No other tricky algorithms, mechanisms or whatever.
Being electronically controlled simply allows you to shorten that window where you have to cut the power, leading to faster lap times.
In other words, the electronics are not optimizing the mechanical action itself in any way.
When shifting up, there are only two outcomes: Gear engaged or gear not engaged. There is no inbetween (not counting forcefully hammering in a gear without cutting power obviously).
I think you are confusing it with electronically controlled downshifts (e.g. as part of a seamless gearbox), where the engine and wheel rpm can be matched perfectly (better than a human ever could), therefore reducing clutch and/or gearbox wear.


Lol!  ;D
I disagree mate, so I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you there Vin because I can see we are looking at it from totally different points of view.  ;D 8)

The point I was trying to make was that when it's done electronically it's a perfect upshift with no stressing the gears; but when a human does it without electronics and no clutch action, a human cannot exactly time that power cut and upshift perfectly every time so that in itself causes greater stress on the gearbox in comparison.
But how you can conclude that the electronics are playing no part in optimising the mechanical gear shift I do not know? Of course the electronics are governing when the shift will occur and also the timing of that gearshift otherwise there would be no benefit of having the electronics part of it at all? The speed of the shift is simply the result of the efficiency of the electronics, but the logic rules and formula will be there in a CPU somewhere on the bike. :)


Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:24:24 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

Never been an issue for me neither. It's works perfect for me too(lean/brake/throttle that is for me).  ;)


How can you be 100% lean AND 100% throttle at the same time ?? In my controller, if I put it top left for instance, I'm 60% to the left and 60% top. Or maybe you have squared joystick cage.
Anyway... You may be confident and feel good with this setup. Max is right. You penalise yourself. Maybe not 100% of the time but for sure, you penalise yourself in some situations.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 pm
bla bla bla


Electronic aided quickshift = Perfect every time with normal rate of wear to gearbox.
Human mechanical gearshift without clutch use on a classic bike = Inconsistent timing with the likely result of significant damage to the gearbox over the course of a race.


I agree with both of you on many thing but ! Sorry Hawk. This time I will take Vini defense.
I don't see why and how, the manual human gearshift without clutch brings more wear or damage to the gearbox (for upshift). Can you tell me what is it based on ?
I am re building old bikes and I don't see any difference in the conception of old and modern bikes gearboxes. I'm not an expert in 'classic bikes' (I don't know what you call classic bike in fact), but for me, motorcycles gearboxes have allways been non-synced "dog-cluth" (I can't find a correct translation on the web, as synced gearboxes with syncromesh also have dog-tooth in between the gears) gearbox with forks mounted on a drum selector.

Also, you  may know that for years, the first quickshift systems had a pretty big fail ratio, bigger than human fail ratio in switching gears without clutch. :/
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 10:29:43 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
Well then OK, if it fits your bill, keep on using it. I do think you're penalising yourself but that's OK.
In Hawk's case, it also prevents him from using manual clutch and rear brake. But again, it it's OK for you fine.


I've missed a million roll-on spots but not because of my controller - more just because I've never been that good at any racing game and am not that fast a rider in real life either.
When I get lapped in a race I see fine well where Meyer or the likes can pull out 5 or 6 seconds a lap on me.  It's by braking later - turning in later - nailing the apex and firing it out the other side - rather than pootling through the corner as though I'm popping down the shop for smokes.

Took 10 years to drag myself up to consistant mid-pack on GP500 - no expectations of things going any better here.   :)
I've obviously tried with just the controller, I'm no quicker and tend to get myself into an over-correction cycle where I keep trying to staighten up and just....bloody....can't.  >:(

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.


Reckon I could(but don't) slam the joystick from back to forward in less than half the time it takes to feed out the brakes and roll on the throttle - a lot less.   ???
Of course the wee-zee has FCR's, they're pretty heavy.  ;)

The real giggle is that I prefer heavy joysticks  ;D - even slower to move but not a word of a lie - I got quicker and more consistant overnight when I got the CH Combatstick(which freaked me out when it arrived - it was so heavy  :o ).
Not being able to blip the throttle and no burnouts.  That's what you want to stick to if you're trying to put folk off their joysticks, trust me.   ;)
Good luck to you.   ;D
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 10:31:11 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:24:24 pm
How can you be 100% lean AND 100% throttle at the same time ?? In my controller, if I put it top left for instance, I'm 60% to the left and 60% top. Or maybe you have squared joystick cage.


Yeah - you get the full square with sticks.  ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:46:29 pm
mhhhhhhhmmm ok ! That makes a difference ! Ok I understand now. sure it is not possible with game pad joystick but possible with plane stick. Ok I've been rude, sorry.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on August 23, 2017, 11:48:20 pm
Quote from: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:46:29 pm
mhhhhhhhmmm ok ! That makes a difference ! Ok I understand now. sure it is not possible with game pad joystick but possible with plane stick. Ok I've been rude, sorry.


Its possible ;)
This is the one i use, square gate. No triggers though, just plain buttons on shoulders. I use 1 stick for steer-clutch and the other for front brake-throttle.
But is the only one i know with square gates, something i think is great and dont know why the hell no other pads have.
Very old model, and now not that easy to found.

Edit: sorry forgot the pic :P

(https://thumb.pccomponentes.com/w-530-530/articles/1/15187/logitech-dual-action-gamepad.jpg)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: BOBR6 84 on August 24, 2017, 05:23:03 am
I raced my old pre-injection R6 for about 3 years before fitting a quickshifter.. never used the clutch for upshifting. just quickly roll off the throttle and slip it in. but yeah if your not near the top of the rev range it spits the gear back at ya  ;D ;D i love quickshifters though.. just keep the throttle pinned, so smooth and saves bags of time down the straights, happy days  ;) 8) 
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: nuovaic on August 24, 2017, 06:36:05 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)


No. I dont use flight sims. No pattern. And no need for this. Just accept the fact the some people like and use joysticks. Let it go.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 24, 2017, 07:04:57 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)


FPS with a Joystick? I don't think so. Lol!  ;D
I rarely play FPS's as such at all nowadays..... I used to like them, but nowadays they just release the same old format over and over again with no depth and nothing really different, so I tend not to play them anymore..... I'm more of an Assassins Creed, Batman Arkham City type fan(Keyboard or xbox controller on PC); those games have a bit more depth to them. But simulations are really my thing; I like realism as much as possible where I can get it.

It's only the flight simulations and GPB that I use the joystick/throttle assembly for.  ;)

Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: poumpouny on August 24, 2017, 09:18:32 am
Play ARMA3 if you want to combine simulation and FPS  ;).

Unconsciently, everytime i create a server, i always tick "no aid" and "force cockpit view" and most of the time there are 3 or 4 people joining. Due to the fact that i'm always searching for hardcore sim (i play Assetto corsa for cars, GP Bikes for motorcycle and ARMA for FPS  ;D) I just don't want to play gpbikes with gamepad, nor joystick. In my opinion,it need to be played with a Wheel or with a dedicated controller (HS2 or my mad max handmade one  ;D). But it's just my opinion, everyone do what they want off course ! Recently i'm not joining any online server because i'm still learnig DST offline  :o but i would love to race with some mate with DST/DSA just to see if i need to continue this way or accept that DST is not for me hihihihih  ;D no matter how much i love hardcore sim hahaha
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Hawk on August 24, 2017, 10:18:29 am
Quote from: poumpouny on August 24, 2017, 09:18:32 am
Play ARMA3 if you want to combine simulation and FPS  ;).

Unconsciently, everytime i create a server, i always tick "no aid" and "force cockpit view" and most of the time there are 3 or 4 people joining. Due to the fact that i'm always searching for hardcore sim (i play Assetto corsa for cars, GP Bikes for motorcycle and ARMA for FPS  ;D) I just don't want to play gpbikes with gamepad, nor joystick. In my opinion,it need to be played with a Wheel or with a dedicated controller (HS2 or my mad max handmade one  ;D). But it's just my opinion, everyone do what they want off course ! Recently i'm not joining any online server because i'm still learnig DST offline  :o but i would love to race with some mate with DST/DSA just to see if i need to continue this way or accept that DST is not for me hihihihih  ;D no matter how much i love hardcore sim hahaha


I do consider Arma 3 as the ultimate military combat sim and I do like it a lot, but it's like most sims that have depth and realism, it's finding the time not only to play them but the time involved in learning everything that goes with an in-depth realistic simulation to play them well. Lol!  ;D

If you want a DST team mate then I suggest you PM Klax75... He's the only other guy here that has learned how to ride using DST and he used to even enter races with it. I'm sure he'd be over the moon to realise that someone else is actually riding with DST too.  ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: HornetMaX on August 24, 2017, 11:42:56 am
Quote from: nuovaic on August 24, 2017, 06:36:05 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)


No. I dont use flight sims. No pattern. And no need for this. Just accept the fact the some people like and use joysticks. Let it go.


Oh well ... OK then. Cheers.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Adalgood on August 24, 2017, 09:03:45 pm
 Hello everyone, sorry for my delay in answering, I did not expect so many answers jej.
 
 First I want to answer the circuit request. I think to start the Missano Circuit is pretty good. It is a technical circuit and forces you to be very focused. For me to drive in the first person is as it should be always. I would remove the external camera from the game. In the end we have become accustomed to have more field of vision can anticipate the acceleration, delay the braking phase and some incredible tracings. But all this is not real. I know that in first person I go slower but once I have the control of my controls I am able to handle my bike with much more reliability and the sensations with the movements of the motorcycle are 10 times more realistic than with the external camera. Hair of the tip.

 Secondly I have noticed that the word "harcore" has given a lot of play to the post and after thanking all the answers and opinions I want to give my opinion on the type of gears and clutch. I think at least at first you should not remove the aids on the server that we use only the onboard camera. Using this type of camera is already a big step towards the simulation and requires a lot of concentration. We should not fall into the mistake of boring people for wanting to be very extremists.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 24, 2017, 11:18:03 pm
You still have your wisdom teeth haven't you ?! ^^
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on August 25, 2017, 02:10:48 am
Sounds good to  me Adalgood  :)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: PeterV on August 25, 2017, 07:36:11 am
I will set it up this weekend, which misano version clock or anticlockwise ?
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Adalgood on August 25, 2017, 07:21:29 pm
Quote from: PeterV on August 25, 2017, 07:36:11 am
I will set it up this weekend, which misano version clock or anticlockwise ?


Clock version. The same sense that is used in the world.

Thank you!!
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 25, 2017, 08:40:30 pm
Thanks tor server Pierre. Can the server dump any session results to a DB link or something? I could make a Best times table with them?
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: PeterV on August 25, 2017, 11:44:55 pm
it sure can ill set that tomorrow if you dont mind, heck thats today its almost 02:00 here  ;)

Edit: it saves the results from all sessions (after a race is finished) in the usual place Nick
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 26, 2017, 07:36:08 am
Top job mate.thank yoooo   8)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Adalgood on August 26, 2017, 03:18:14 pm
Quote from: Napalm Nick on August 25, 2017, 08:40:30 pm
Thanks tor server Pierre. Can the server dump any session results to a DB link or something? I could make a Best times table with them?


You have read my mind Napalm. I wanted to post something similar in another post. To have a motivation you could create a weekly event of the type "Time Attack" where you choose a circuit and two different bikes. A duration from Tuesday to Sunday and see who register better times. I think it would be a good way to motivate people on the server by trying to improve their timing.

I understand this takes a job. I offer to help in publishing the tables or what has to be done. Any ideas?

Sorry if I do not understand myself. I speak in Spanish and I'm using the Google translator;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 26, 2017, 04:46:21 pm
Cool just tell us when you want to change track or bike ( must be Beta 12 bike of course). I will make a table and update it for results whenever i have the time.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 26, 2017, 07:37:18 pm
Hey guys, I'm going out of track here but I'm planning on making a site to manage championships for GPB ;) It may have this kind of features, best times etc...
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: tchemi on August 28, 2017, 12:25:55 pm
We had some good sessions yesterday on this server.

It is good to see how GPBikes can bring good feelings and good riding with the non modded bikes.
The battles with the varese on Isano were exciting.

Nice ride with Warlock, Grooveski and Kerazo ;)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: -aGy- on August 31, 2017, 11:00:15 pm
i have suggestion. lets put drivers on two, three or four groups. one with true simulator riders 1ps no aids but clutch help and automatic rider movements, two with no so simulator riders 3ps but same , and three and four with aids and bla bla bla. why this cant be done.is this crazy?ps 1ps is the way to go
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Napalm Nick on August 31, 2017, 11:16:29 pm
@-aGy- do you own that Hailwood replica Duke?

BTW here is a server for 1p only http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=5193.0 go get some times down

First person simulation:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/cy0aKRqYiJFcY/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: PeterV on October 26, 2017, 07:49:00 pm
any recommendations for bikes or track please let me know by posting here
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: BOBR6 84 on October 26, 2017, 08:29:10 pm
Donny park.. Gp250 or stk1000 or Gp500
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: lbracen8x on October 28, 2017, 06:02:40 am
I think with the wide range of skill of the different players and the small community, that servers like this just limit who can race around with.


I love hardcore simulation btw. I wouldn't be here if I didn't.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: KG_03 on October 28, 2017, 12:04:14 pm
Even more...most of the riding time on the servers is practice and working on lap times.
Title: Re: First person simulator server
Post by: Warlock on October 28, 2017, 01:25:16 pm
It has to be at least one server for those who want to.
No matter if its practicing, you know others in the server are in the same conditions as you (1P). And i can tell you when there are few of them its good fun.  ;)