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GP Bikes => Suggestions and wishlist => Topic started by: Serge Dagher on October 09, 2017, 11:55:16 am

Title: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 09, 2017, 11:55:16 am
I have not seen a parameter that let's me specify my rider's weight which would directly affect the suspension setup!

It would be great if each one could set their rider's weight and have a more realistic approach to bike suspension setup!
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: BOBR6 84 on October 09, 2017, 02:54:24 pm
+1  ;)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Hawk on October 09, 2017, 05:51:15 pm
Nice idea, but I would also add that if you could change the riders weight then it will have a min-weight limit you can change to otherwise you'll get riders entering something silly like "1lb/1KG" and likely gaining a big power to weight ratio advantage?
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: tchemi on October 09, 2017, 06:04:35 pm
Would be great to add a feature to set our balls weight and size. The bigger it is, the more lean and late brake you can take ^^

J.K.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 09, 2017, 06:35:49 pm
Quote from: Hawk on October 09, 2017, 05:51:15 pm
Nice idea, but I would also add that if you could change the riders weight then it will have a min-weight limit you can change to otherwise you'll get riders entering something silly like "1lb/1KG" and likely gaining a big power to weight ratio advantage?


Yes minimum weight with height parameter... but keep in mind short riders with a feather weight have a disadvantage in motogp or should i say on big liter bikes - one person would come to mind Dany Pedrosa, the guy's got talents and balls the size of Jupiter but his weight is a disadvantage.

So yeah if Piboso would like to keep it real that would be an awesome feature!

Quote from: tchemi on October 09, 2017, 06:04:35 pm
Would be great to add a feature to set our balls weight and size. The bigger it is, the more lean and late brake you can take ^^

J.K.


Lol
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Hawk on October 09, 2017, 09:07:23 pm
Quote from: tchemi on October 09, 2017, 06:04:35 pm
Would be great to add a feature to set our balls weight and size. The bigger it is, the more lean and late brake you can take ^^

J.K.


ROFL! ;D
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Warlock on October 10, 2017, 03:42:54 am
Quote from: tchemi on October 09, 2017, 06:04:35 pm
Would be great to add a feature to set our balls weight and size. The bigger it is, the more lean and late brake you can take ^^

J.K.


Hhahaaha, no better way to say it  ;D
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 10, 2017, 09:52:28 pm
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 09, 2017, 06:35:49 pm
Yes minimum weight with height parameter... but keep in mind short riders with a feather weight have a disadvantage in motogp or should i say on big liter bikes - one person would come to mind Dany Pedrosa, the guy's got talents and balls the size of Jupiter but his weight is a disadvantage.

Really not sure about that disadvantage. Marquez is not exactly a giant.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: poumpouny on October 11, 2017, 06:35:40 am
Weight may be an avantange in rapid direction change (in a rapid chicane or a crocksrew), in the other side, height difference is more noticable especially in hard braking (a√©rodynamics). Anyway, Dani didn't have nor the weight neither the height  ;D
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 07:06:27 am
I'm really not sure about that. Only place where I've heard weight/height may matter is at start (as you can move the cog more fwd). Even that is probably marginal.
On the other hand, if you are 10kg less that may well count overall.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: poumpouny on October 11, 2017, 07:51:39 am
I think it is true in hardbraking and a tall rider, how ingeneer insist on the aérodynamic wing, it's about a couple of centimeter width, now imagine Rossi at 320 km/h hardbraking and using his body to counter the air resistance. of couse in high speed he will brake more than a smaller rider, just cause of a coefficient air resistance/surface. Of course i don't know how much he can gain with that, surely tinny more but as you know in Moto GP they ary fighting for very tiny difference !
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Stout Johnson on October 11, 2017, 08:04:14 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 07:06:27 am
I'm really not sure about that. Only place where I've heard weight/height may matter is at start (as you can move the cog more fwd). Even that is probably marginal.
On the other hand, if you are 10kg less that may well count overall.

Pedrosa this year repeatedly had problems with too low tire temperatures when track and environment temperatures where too low. He did not get the tires in a working temp window. That is why he has struggled in cold and wet races this year (e.g. Assen, Misano). I cannot remember him having problems in that respect with the Bridgestone tires, so maybe this is something related to the Michelins. But in cold conditions Dani seems to have a disadvantage with his weight. On the other hand in very hot races he seemed to have an advantage as he seemed to manage tires very well, which may be in part to his soft and fluid riding style compared to Marquez, but also to his weight.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Boerenlater on October 11, 2017, 09:41:18 am
In the rain weight is an advantage, see Petrucci, Bo Bendsneyder.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 06:24:10 pm
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 11, 2017, 08:04:14 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 07:06:27 am
I'm really not sure about that. Only place where I've heard weight/height may matter is at start (as you can move the cog more fwd). Even that is probably marginal.
On the other hand, if you are 10kg less that may well count overall.

Pedrosa this year repeatedly had problems with too low tire temperatures when track and environment temperatures where too low. He did not get the tires in a working temp window. That is why he has struggled in cold and wet races this year (e.g. Assen, Misano). I cannot remember him having problems in that respect with the Bridgestone tires, so maybe this is something related to the Michelins. But in cold conditions Dani seems to have a disadvantage with his weight. On the other hand in very hot races he seemed to have an advantage as he seemed to manage tires very well, which may be in part to his soft and fluid riding style compared to Marquez, but also to his weight.

I'd say riding style more than weight.

A bit old, but spot on the discussion: https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html (https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 11, 2017, 07:48:12 pm
I've seen dani in person he's really short, i am 5'5" and i felt like a giant next to him... Marquez is taller and has more build to him, and Rossi is slightly taller than Marquez.

the problem lately with Dani is that he's not heavy enough to put weight on the rear tyre to get it to generate heat, and for Michelin this is very crucial, since the carcass they made is super weight and temperature sensitive...

however, Dani's size and weight are no measure to the size of his balls and talent... if he were in Moto2 he'd be kicking ass all the time.

now you guys mentioned Petrucci being big... have you seen Loris Baz... i think he could've easily been a basketball player!
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 08:27:00 pm
Pedrosa 1m58 51kg
Marquez 1m68 59kg
Rossi 1m82 67kg

I do like dani but 8kg extra weight can't explain even a quarter of the gap between him and marquez.
If the problem was simply that, just strap 8 extra kg on dani's ass and the problem would solved. It can't be that.

Also, remember that from some points of view, being lighter gives you an advantage.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.
These guys fight at the top for 0.1 of a second, so let's say Marquez has the advantage of 1kg/cm of mass to be distributed over a "longer and wider" area of the bike.

And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol

...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 06:31:51 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.

Maybe (even if I still think it's marginal at best), but that comes at the price of having to accelerate 9 extra kg every time you twist the throttle.

Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol

Despite what people think, these bikes are very agile. I'm not sure you actually need to manhandle them.

Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆

I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 07:20:47 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 06:31:51 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
Yes i agree it can't be just his weight,  am thinking it's a combination of weight and a couple of things like his height. ...Marquez is a good 10cm taller and 9kg heavier. My thinking is (and i am no expert; but simply out of my riding experience and what i read), the height gives you advantage of better weight distribution over the bike.


Quote
Maybe (even if I still think it's marginal at best), but that comes at the price of having to accelerate 9 extra kg every time you twist the throttle.



yes and i think that would be more "felt" accelerating out of a turn.

Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
And i think (from observation) that extra weight and height gives Marquez the "freedom" (for lack of better term) to manhandle the bike - and that's maybe part of why they have different riding styles - Dani being smoother than a surgeon! Lol

Quote
Despite what people think, these bikes are very agile. I'm not sure you actually need to manhandle them.


They are indeed, but (again personal observation - no expert opinion) handling that much horse power (250+) is a lot, and one would be fighting against gyroscopic effect, that's where the higher COG and bigger Mass of Marquez allows him to trash around the bike and pick it up on his knees (sometimes elbows) and basically play with it like a toy (literally), and i think this is why they attribute Marquez with an aggressive riding style, while on the other hand Dani has to be smooth, and again (personal observation with some riding experience - no expert opinion) the smoothness comes handing for him to react at a "lesser resistance rate" from gyroscopic effects. plus the rear of the seat (the almost upright section) is used to hold the rider in place while accelerating hard, Dani can't reach it so he has to smooth his acceleration to "literally stay on the bike".
here is where height comes at a disadvantage - keep your self stable on the bike - also down the straights some riders put their butt slightly higher on that seat upright section creating a "wing" on the back end of the bike forcing the rear suspension down for better grip from rear... again Dani can't do that...

Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆

I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.


Vale is on a "severe" diet, he's a ghost of the man he was last year.  ;D
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 07:32:36 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 07:20:47 am
Vale is on a "severe" diet, he's a ghost of the man he was last year.  ;D

Which proves that Dani, if anything, has an advantage, not a disadvantage :)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 07:45:20 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 11, 2017, 06:24:10 pm
A bit old, but spot on the discussion: https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html (https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/04/13/number_crunching_how_much_of_a_factor_is.html)

It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 06:31:51 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 04:01:55 am
...maybe next year when they are back at lusail circuit I'll ask dani what's his opinion about adding 10kg ballast! 😆😆😆😆

I guess a polite "thanks but no thanks" will be the answer.
And I guess if you ask Marc or Vale if they'd like to have some 10kg less on them (like an ultra light suit+helmet+boots) they'd be ready to pay big money for that.

I totally agree with Marc and Vale, they try to be light for sure. But that is because they are not in danger of hitting 51kg like Pedrosa. ; ) I bet if Pedrosa could gain 10cm and 8kg he would gladly take it. You always have to keep in mind it is not only the weight but also the height that is an advantage in bad weather conditions. Guys like Redding, Rossi and Baz can change the center of gravity of a bike considerably just by sticking their long legs out and moving their upper body a bit to the inside. Pedrosa would need a complete hanging-off to generate similar weight changes. And that is not easy to do in rainy weather conditions.

In case you misunderstood, the argument raised is not that Dani in general is at a disadvantage (it could be argued that he is having an advantage, especially in hot weather). The argument is that in cold and rainy conditions he is struggling to get the tires warm enough (the current Michelin seem to be especially hard to get there in cold conditions).

I found an article where Dani himself relates to the matter.
https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/pedrosa-explains-root-cause-of-nightmare-misano-race-951708/
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 07:58:07 am
@Stout: I may agree with you, but others here seems to think that Dani is at disadvantage in other situations (e.g. braking, fast direction changes etc).

By the way, gaining 10cm is not possible of course, but gaining 8kg is really doable. I guess he could easily do that if that was an advantage *overall*.
But of course if it only brings an advantage in rainy races and a disadvantage in dry ones, the decision is quickly taken.
Isn't that confirmed by the article you linked ? (they have added weight for wet races but definitely not for dry ones).

Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 07:45:20 am
It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).

Come on man, it was meant to be readable by the average biker :)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 08:33:39 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 07:58:07 am
By the way, gaining 10cm is not possible of course, but gaining 8kg is really doable. I guess he could easily do that if that was an advantage *overall*.
But of course if it only brings an advantage in rainy races and a disadvantage in dry ones, the decision is quickly taken.
Isn't that confirmed by the article you linked ? (they have added weight for wet races but definitely not for dry ones).

To be honest, I wouldn't be too surprised if Dani decided to go on a Donut diet  ;D Just kidding, if he would only gain weight he would probably sacrifice his stamina and conditioning. He would need to be lifting weights heavily in order to gain mass overall and not only around his belly which would not help center-of-gravity-wise (or should I say center-of-gravy-wise :P) And he would still lack the height, so it would only be of marginal benefit anyhow. And as you said, it would also only benefit him for the the few cold/wet races. It would be interesting though to see where he would stand championship-wise without those cold/wet races where he is struggling. He could be more of a danger then, so maybe he will consider one of those bone-stretching operations (http://images.gizmag.com/inline/bone-3.jpg) and then go on steroids to gain weight and we might have another Marquez on our hands :P

Concerning the additional weight experiments, I could not really understand what Pedrosa meant with "to the minimum of the tyre".
"We put weight on the bike today from warm-up to the race, to simulate [that] I was heavier, but you need to go to the minimum of the tyre," added Pedrosa.

The english of those spanish riders (and of the italian also) is mostly bad, or if he was giving this interview in Spanish then it was poorly translated. Anyhow, it seems as they added the weight to the bike, so that may not be the most useful way.

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 07:58:07 am
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 07:45:20 am
It is not 'spot on' as it does not take weather conditions into account. Mind you, I was talking about Dani having problems under certain weather conditions with the recent Michelin tires. So your article does not bear much relevance (in addition to its poor use of statistical methods).

Come on man, it was meant to be readable by the average biker :)

Not so sure about that, the whole 'analysis' in that article seems to be really really dilettanteish. I may be overly sensitive in that aspect though (I specialized in statistics during my studies). ;)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 09:49:20 am
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 08:33:39 am
Not so sure about that, the whole 'analysis' in that article seems to be really really dilettanteish.

It was for sure. But I'm not sure about the proportion of bikers that can grasp anything more complex than the notion of average :)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:13:42 am
Max my reply is in the Quotes, Stout Johnson you mentioned same points as i did... COG and mass positiong!

i tried to quote back your quotes Max but somehow am not getting it right! excuse my ignorance... noob to forums in general!
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 10:40:00 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:13:42 am
Max my reply is in the Quotes, Stout Johnson you mentioned same points as i did... COG and mass positiong!

I've seen it. But in what I linked (set aside the questionable 'statistical' analysis) there was a fact (back in 2011 but I think it's still valid):

QuoteMarco Simoncelli and Valentino Rossi had submitted an informal proposal to the Safety Commission to examine having a combined minimum weight for both bike and rider in MotoGP, just as there currently is in the 125cc class. Their argument was that lighter riders had an unfair advantage, and that by setting a minimum weight, the larger riders would have a better chance of competing.


That's not me saying it, it comes from a couple of pretty competent chaps :)

So yes, in very specific conditions (wet + weird tyres) a lighter rider may have a disadvantage, but overall ...
And even with that, I don't think heavier riders have an advantage when braking or when "manhandling the bike around".
Most of the seat problems can be solved too: unless you require for Dani to be able to put both feet down while on the bike, of course :)
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:45:14 am
yes totally agree, but keep in mind that they can also play somewhat of a "mind game" to "over exaggerate" things to gain or eliminate the slightest advantage!
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:48:32 am
Max does your nickname mean that you have a honda hornet?

...and back to the suggestion part of this topic, so would it make sense to have an option in the game to choose rider weight and height(with certain limitations to the parameters allowed)?

Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:54:38 am
Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 08:33:39 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 07:58:07 am
.... (or should I say center-of-gravy-wise :P)...



lol
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 10:56:21 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:48:32 am
Max does your nickname mean that you have a honda hornet?

...and back to the suggestion part of this topic, so would it make sense to have an option in the game to choose rider weight and height(with certain limitations to the parameters allowed)?

Has been my first (and second) bike. I'm on a cb1000r at the moment.

Concerning the suggestion: it's probably very easy to implement but (personally) I think it doesn't bring anything worth.

I could eventually vote for something like 3 rider types (a Dani, a Marc and a Cal) with their own weight and their own 3d rider model: I don't think it will make any measurable difference physics-wise, but at least we wouldn't see a grid full of physically identical riders. But of course that is a bit trickier (you'd need 3 3d rider models).
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 11:26:47 am

[/quote]
Has been my first (and second) bike. I'm on a cb1000r at the moment.

[/quote]

before i bought my first bike, i always thought the hornet would be it!

Came close to owning a Cb1000r (white with black trim) in 2011, but never happened... and now that finances are not an issue, unfortunately where i live the market is not big on naked bikes, so dealership won't import the model!

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 10:56:21 am

Concerning the suggestion: it's probably very easy to implement but (personally) I think it doesn't bring anything worth.

I could eventually vote for something like 3 rider types (a Dani, a Marc and a Cal) with their own weight and their own 3d rider model: I don't think it will make any measurable difference physics-wise, but at least we wouldn't see a grid full of physically identical riders. But of course that is a bit trickier (you'd need 3 3d rider models).



the suggestion was simply from a Keeping-it-real point of view, obviously the physics are working great (for me), and i just thought about it because of the MaxHud display option for suspension - i thought what is it taking into account when displaying the "weight" exerted on the suspension!??
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 11:41:46 am
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 10:56:21 am
Quote from: Serge Dagher on October 12, 2017, 10:48:32 am
Max does your nickname mean that you have a honda hornet?

...and back to the suggestion part of this topic, so would it make sense to have an option in the game to choose rider weight and height(with certain limitations to the parameters allowed)?

[...]

Concerning the suggestion: it's probably very easy to implement but (personally) I think it doesn't bring anything worth.

Definitely agree. The suspension and especially the tyre physics in GPB are not refined enough at the moment (I know Piboso is trying, but still it is the truth). At the moment in GPB you can go to the track with the Murasama without TC and you can pretty much attack from corner 1 on without having to worry about warming the tyres... that says enough.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Vini on October 12, 2017, 02:28:33 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 10:40:00 am
QuoteMarco Simoncelli and Valentino Rossi had submitted an informal proposal to the Safety Commission to examine having a combined minimum weight for both bike and rider in MotoGP, just as there currently is in the 125cc class. Their argument was that lighter riders had an unfair advantage, and that by setting a minimum weight, the larger riders would have a better chance of competing.


That's not me saying it, it comes from a couple of pretty competent chaps :)

So yes, in very specific conditions (wet + weird tyres) a lighter rider may have a disadvantage, but overall ...
And even with that, I don't think heavier riders have an advantage when braking or when "manhandling the bike around".
Most of the seat problems can be solved too: unless you require for Dani to be able to put both feet down while on the bike, of course :)
.
Again you're ignoring the fact that Stout already pointed out:
Yes, less weight is an advantage but only up to a certain point. Dani is past that point, other riders like Rossi would never get close to that point. Michelin would have to give Dani his own special tyres for every so that he can make use of his "advantage".  But even then, a 51kg body operating a MotoGP bike is simpy very close to its physical limit, hence why Dani almost had to retire in the Bridgestone era because his forearms couldn't handle the hard braking. He is also very lucky that Marquez is relatively small as well and that consequently the Honda is still optimized for midget riders (stemming from the 800cc days where Dani was #1).
And no matter how agile these bikes are, changing direction at 250+ km/h takes a lot of effort and it's significantly harder when you have less leverage on the handlebar (shorter limbs) and less control over the CoG of the bike in general.
Adding balast to the bike or Dani gaining some fat would maybe solve the tyre temperature issues but then riding the bike will be even harder for him.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 11:41:46 amDefinitely agree. The suspension and especially the tyre physics in GPB are not refined enough at the moment (I know Piboso is trying, but still it is the truth). At the moment in GPB you can go to the track with the Murasama without TC and you can pretty much attack from corner 1 on without having to worry about warming the tyres... that says enough.

I can't say anything about the Mura but this is definitely not the case for the MotoGP bikes. Tyre pressure/temperature makes a lot of difference in how the tyres grip and not being in the optimal range is clearly noticable.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 04:10:50 pm
Quote from: vini97 on October 12, 2017, 02:28:33 pm
Yes, less weight is an advantage but only up to a certain point. Dani is past that point

Marquez is "only" 8kg more and I don't see him struggling that much.
Dani could easily put some kg on himself: not a beer belly of course, but these are pro riders, gaining 5kg can be achieved easily.
He never did it: why?
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Vini on October 12, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Marquez has a much stronger build and he can generate the necessary tyre temperature with his extreme riding style. He is also taller which gives him more leverage.
Gaining 5kg of muscles when you're only 51kg and already a pro athlete (past your prime) cannot be achieved easily, at least not without illegal tricks.

Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 06:46:19 pm
Quote from: vini97 on October 12, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Marquez has a much stronger build and he can generate the necessary tyre temperature with his extreme riding style. He is also taller which gives him more leverage.

Extreme riding style in the rain ?!

Quote from: vini97 on October 12, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Gaining 5kg of muscles when you're only 51kg and already a pro athlete (past your prime) cannot be achieved easily, at least not without illegal tricks.

No illegal trick, it's very, very doable.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Meyer#12 on October 12, 2017, 07:59:59 pm
I tend to agree with MAX  here having been in that state near to pro athelte with professional training program.
5kg can easily be gained by Pedrosa. Racers are training for durability more than big and powerful muscles. Changing your training to less reps with heavier weights and pedrosa will fast gain muscle mass and get bigger.. if you look at the riders they are not big and muscular but rather slim and fit.
Title: Re: Rider weight!
Post by: Stout Johnson on October 12, 2017, 08:16:51 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 12, 2017, 06:46:19 pm
Quote from: vini97 on October 12, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Marquez has a much stronger build and he can generate the necessary tyre temperature with his extreme riding style. He is also taller which gives him more leverage.

Extreme riding style in the rain ?!

Quote from: vini97 on October 12, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Gaining 5kg of muscles when you're only 51kg and already a pro athlete (past your prime) cannot be achieved easily, at least not without illegal tricks.

No illegal trick, it's very, very doable.

If we take it literally (gaining 10% of your body weight in lean muscle mass, no fat) then I have to say it is a very hard feat to achieve without PED's, unless the person trying to achieve the feat is a couch potato or a skinny 14 year old. But if you are in your 30s and already well trained, it is hard to achieve. Believe me, I have done it and it took me over 2 years. But it would probably be sufficient, if he gained 5% in muscle mass and 5% in body fat, in that ratio it would still be reasonably active mass. But as mentioned before, without the height it would only be of marginal help.

And concerning the riding style in rain, for me it is clear (like mentioned before) that with more height you can put more strain on the tyres with less effort. That relation obviously is not linear, which probably is why there are other relatively small riders that do ok in the rain or are even great like Marquez. Dani obviously seems to be under the threshold. For Marquez his aggressive riding style (of course less aggressive in the rain, but still more agressive than other riders in the rain) seems to be plus in terms of tyre temperatures. That is also why Marquez is one of the few riders who uses the hard compound more often than others, because he gets it into the working temperature window when others cannot. And it also seems to be more than a coincidence that taller riders like Baz, Redding, Miller, Rossi are especially good in the rain.