As I recall something similar being suggested on the old forum, I wanted just to suggest a solution once more...
To prevent the bike from going on forever after a crash without someone actually on it, i want to suggest putting a timer in the game that makes it possible to reset the bike although it did not come to a complete stop. If the game "knows" when the biker has fallen off (which I expect it does) then it should allow a bike reset after <insert variable here> seconds. After let's say 10 seconds the bike usually has come to a stop and if it did not, it would not be unreasonable to allow for a reset imho.
I think this might be an easier (but less realistic) fix for Piboso then changing something in the physics to prevent this from happening. I know the gyroscoping effects sometimes keeps the bikes standing up in real life as well, but especially on tracks such as UlsterGP with the "curved sides" along most of the track it just happens a bit too often.
Quote from: iVolution on January 19, 2014, 08:41:19 PM
As I recall something similar being suggested on the old forum, I wanted just to suggest a solution once more...
To prevent the bike from going on forever after a crash without someone actually on it, i want to suggest putting a timer in the game that makes it possible to reset the bike although it did not come to a complete stop. If the game "knows" when the biker has fallen off (which I expect it does) then it should allow a bike reset after <insert variable here> seconds. After let's say 10 seconds the bike usually has come to a stop and if it did not, it would not be unreasonable to allow for a reset imho.
I think this might be an easier (but less realistic) fix for Piboso then changing something in the physics to prevent this from happening. I know the gyroscoping effects sometimes keeps the bikes standing up in real life as well, but especially on tracks such as UlsterGP with the "curved sides" along most of the track it just happens a bit too often.
I really hope PiBoSo adds a 'force reset'. It's not only useful for the rider but also for the others (when your bike falls on the racing line or in a chicane).
Quote from: Arvoss on January 19, 2014, 10:16:40 PM
I really hope PiBoSo adds a 'force reset'. It's not only useful for the rider but also for the others (when your bike falls on the racing line or in a chicane).
But that is part of the deal i think. People just have to steer around it just as IRL. How are you going to prevent people from using that all the time? It is hard for the game to decide whether the bike is obstructing the normal racing line or not i think. Aside from that, what is worse.. a bike lying on the track or someone spawning in front of you?
Quote from: iVolution on January 19, 2014, 10:33:47 PM
Quote from: Arvoss on January 19, 2014, 10:16:40 PM
I really hope PiBoSo adds a 'force reset'. It's not only useful for the rider but also for the others (when your bike falls on the racing line or in a chicane).
But that is part of the deal i think. People just have to steer around it just as IRL. How are you going to prevent people from using that all the time? It is hard for the game to decide whether the bike is obstructing the normal racing line or not i think. Aside from that, what is worse.. a bike lying on the track or someone spawning in front of you?
Ghost spawn is a solution. A force reset is needed for scooter races for example. Imagine a 24 player race on a small track. It will be almost impossible to reset now...
We are discussing two separate issues here:
- Bike going on and on all alone: this must be addressed, but not with a button to prevent it.
- General respawn mechanism
In GPB today you respawn
ON the track, at the point where the rider fell off (in beta3 it was at the point where the bike stopped, which was worse).
In order to avoid troubles to the other riders, GPB waits until nobody is near the respawn point before letting you respawn. The problem is that on some short tracks/many riders, you wait forever.
I'd reason like this: how does it works for, let's say, WRS/KRP ?
My solution would be: respawn
OFF the track, i.e. same point of the track where the rider fell off, but not on the track, beside it, on asphalt, grass or even sand (you'll have to "walk" the bike from sand ...). Then it's up to the rider to go back on track avoiding troubles. After all, it's already like this in WRS/KRP: when you go off the track, then you go back on track by yourself.
MaX.
EDIT: I messed up your post iVo, sorry. MaX.
Yes issue #2 was not something i proposed to discuss. Nothing wrong with that imo.
It is not entirely fair to compare WRS/KRP with GPbikes regarding to the respawning mechanism... Aside from the bike having two wheel which makes it a lot harder to get of the grass from a standstill, it just sometimes happens that there is a curbstone or some other irregularity in the surface that just keeps you falling over when next to the track. Spawning next to the track is therefore not really an option for bikes i think.
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Yes issue #2 was not something i proposed to discuss. Nothing wrong with that imo.
There's plenty of wrong: when you are on a short track with many riders, you may not be able to respawn at all.
In less extreme situations, you may fall and respawn in 5 seconds (cause nobody is coming behind you) or in 50 seconds (cause a train of "not-sufficiently-enough-spaced" riders are coming behind you). For an online race, this is kinda bad: how much you'll lose will depend on your luck. We experienced this many times in the french championship (some short tracks there).
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It is not entirely fair to compare WRS/KRP with GPbikes regarding to the respawning mechanism... Aside from the bike having two wheel which makes it a lot harder to get of the grass from a standstill, it just sometimes happens that there is a curbstone or some other irregularity in the surface that just keeps you falling over when next to the track. Spawning next to the track is therefore not really an option for bikes i think.
I really don't see why though. It is closer to reality than respawning always on track. If there's a track bug that prevents you from going back on track .. well, that's a track bug. Also, you could walk the bike to another point and go back on track.
Getting off the grass is hard ? Yes. Like in reality. Don't open that throttle too much. Not even once you're on the track, as your tires will be dirty. Like in reality.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 12:12:55 AM
In less extreme situations, you may fall and respawn in 5 seconds (cause nobody is coming behind you) or in 50 seconds (cause a train of "not-sufficiently-enough-spaced" riders are coming behind you). For an online race, this is kinda bad: how much you'll lose will depend on your luck.
I haven't really raced the zip's on the kart-tracks seriously so haven't experienced it all too much. On "normal" tracks i can imagine it happening but i think its less of a problem there.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 12:12:55 AM
I really don't see why though. It is closer to reality than respawning always on track. If there's a track bug that prevents you from going back on track .. well, that's a track bug. Also, you could walk the bike to another point and go back on track.
Getting off the grass is hard ? Yes. Like in reality. Don't open that throttle too much. Not even once you're on the track, as your tires will be dirty. Like in reality.
Yes but if we want to go that direction we should go all the way, I remember SBK2000/2001 had the "walking to your bike" feature and that was a lot less fair than waiting for others to pass. If you went down on a straight or in particular corners, it could mean that you were losing 30 sec instead of 5 when landing near your bike. That was a bit though as well because falling off literaly meant finishing with the last 1 or 2.
Quote from: iVolution on January 20, 2014, 12:30:29 AM
Yes but if we want to go that direction we should go all the way, I remember SBK2000/2001 had the "walking to your bike" feature and that was a lot less fair than waiting for others to pass. If you went down on a straight or in particular corners, it could mean that you were losing 30 sec instead of 5 when landing near your bike.
Well, at least it had the plus of being realistic (as much as respawning after an highside could be). I'm sure some hardcore guys here would prefer that.
Of course all this should apply for races/online only: when testing we don't really care.
So ball to the others: how would you like to change the current respawn logic (if at all) ?
MaX.
Interesting discussion.
If we're talking reality here, most bikes that fall are in no condition to continue the race anyway, so lets be real and solve the problem by the incident ending your race, period. Maybe then riders wouldn't race like kamakazi riders knowing that if they fall off then that's the end of their race. :P
As for practice, qualy, warm up, or sighting lap, if you fall off then you go straight back to your garage, were you can then decide to go back to track as usual.
I know it will at times be frustrating with the some of the crap track surfaces that are around at the moment, but they are and will be slowly fixed.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 20, 2014, 12:44:09 AM
If we're talking reality here, most bikes that fall are in no condition to continue the race anyway, so lets be real and solve the problem by the incident ending your race, period. Maybe then riders wouldn't race like kamakazi riders knowing that if they fall off then that's the end of their race. :P
As for practice, qualy, warm up, or sighting lap, if you fall off then you go straight back to your garage, were you can then decide to go back to track as usual.
I know it will at times be frustrating with the some of the crap track surfaces that are around at the moment, but they are and will be slowly fixed.
+1000! thank you Hawk, glad to have others here promoting that approach, too :) I would make one small adjustment though. I would propose that ...
*if you fall and hit the ground/barrier with an impact above a (to be defined) "
impact threshold", then you
go straight back to the pits (in a race --> DNF (did not finish))
*if you hit relatively slightly (with an impact that would not necessarily mean you could not continue) then you can continue by
re-spawning, but from off the track like Max proposed
I would go even as far as saying that it would make all of us better riders if we knew that falling meant to be starting out of the pits again... we would ride much more consciously.
Quote from: Stout Johnson on January 20, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk_UK on January 20, 2014, 12:44:09 AM
If we're talking reality here, most bikes that fall are in no condition to continue the race anyway, so lets be real and solve the problem by the incident ending your race, period. Maybe then riders wouldn't race like kamakazi riders knowing that if they fall off then that's the end of their race. :P
As for practice, qualy, warm up, or sighting lap, if you fall off then you go straight back to your garage, were you can then decide to go back to track as usual.
I know it will at times be frustrating with the some of the crap track surfaces that are around at the moment, but they are and will be slowly fixed.
+1000! thank you Hawk, glad to have others here promoting that approach, too :) I would make one small adjustment though. I would propose that ...
*if you fall and hit the ground/barrier with an impact above a (to be defined) "impact threshold", then you go straight back to the pits (in a race --> DNF (did not finish))
*if you hit relatively slightly (with an impact that would not necessarily mean you could not continue) then you can continue by re-spawning, but from off the track like Max proposed
I would go even as far as saying that it would make all of us better riders if we knew that falling meant to be starting out of the pits again... we would ride much more consciously.
The problem is, you fall too easy on GP Bikes. You can't have a very close battle without falling. In MOTOGP riders are touching each other and they don't fall. PiBoSo should add a bit more glue on the seat ::)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on January 20, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
I would make one small adjustment though. I would propose that ...
*if you fall and hit the ground/barrier with an impact above a (to be defined) "impact threshold", then you go straight back to the pits (in a race --> DNF (did not finish))
*if you hit relatively slightly (with an impact that would not necessarily mean you could not continue) then you can continue by re-spawning, but from off the track like Max proposed
I kinda like this. Of course it could be made optional (under hardcore options maybe).
Quote from: Arvoss on January 20, 2014, 02:23:23 PM
The problem is, you fall too easy on GP Bikes. You can't have a very close battle without falling. In MOTOGP riders are touching each other and they don't fall. PiBoSo should add a bit more glue on the seat ::)
That's a separate issue. If the rider was not falling that much, would it be OK to do something along the lines of what Stout has proposed ?
MaX.
Quote from: Arvoss on January 20, 2014, 02:23:23 PM
The problem is, you fall too easy on GP Bikes. You can't have a very close battle without falling. In MOTOGP riders are touching each other and they don't fall. PiBoSo should add a bit more glue on the seat ::)
Maybe for you that is a problem, for me it is what makes GPbikes great. If I look at footage from motogp13 i see people just ramming it up the inside and surviving to live another day :-\ (maybe something for 1st corners warlock? :P). I have had multiple multilap battles with jamoz and others where you just give each other some breathing room and we manage just fine. There is nothing wrong with how fast you go down....
The only exception to this is when in some cases the bikes go side by side at the same speed (in a nearly straight line) and bump against each other the rider falls off and the bike doesn't even change direction.
edit: sry for going off topic with this and won't spend anymore words on it here ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 03:17:50 PM
That's a separate issue. If the rider was not falling that much, would it be OK to do something along the lines of what Stout has proposed ?
MaX.
Yes, that would be quite realistic. If you have the possibility to choose the difficulty level (Reset on/off) that would be a great feature.
Crash = PIT ;)
I absolutely agree with Stout's qualification on my suggestion. Now we're talking some real constructive changes that would make sense. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 03:17:50 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on January 20, 2014, 02:19:26 PM
I would make one small adjustment though. I would propose that ...
*if you fall and hit the ground/barrier with an impact above a (to be defined) "impact threshold", then you go straight back to the pits (in a race --> DNF (did not finish))
*if you hit relatively slightly (with an impact that would not necessarily mean you could not continue) then you can continue by re-spawning, but from off the track like Max proposed
I kinda like this. Of course it could be made optional (under hardcore options maybe).
yeah, good idea to make it optional (so you wouldn't scare off the "a-bit-less-realism-enthusiasts" ;) ) the "impact threshold" value could also be defined in like 4 preset values that allow different difficult settings. So in aggregation an additional setting called e.g. "crash realism" could be defined like for example:
- "easy" (the way it is - maybe with reset off track instead of on the track)
- "medium" (with reset at pits "if crash impact exceeds g-force level of 40
*")
- "hard" (with reset at pits "if crash impact exceeds g-force level of 30
*")
- "hardcore" or "realistic" (with reset at pits "if crash impact exceeds g-force level of 20
*")
* g-force level estimated (I am not an expert in this field) ;)
Totally agree.
tracks like enna or any with grass next to wall could stones be added to upset the bike and make it fall? prince gorge has stone models and if you hit them you fall off. tracks like Avus this would not work with the track edge next to tarmac, maybe a partail work around?
Quote from: RBp on January 20, 2014, 07:13:14 PM
tracks like enna or any with grass next to wall could stones be added to upset the bike and make it fall? prince gorge has stone models and if you hit them you fall off. tracks like Avus this would not work with the track edge next to tarmac, maybe a partail work around?
That would be plenty of work for track modders for just a dirty workaround. Let's solve the thing properly.
MaX.
I hope I'm in the same ball park here,as I was under the impression that the question raised by iVolution was refering to the following?
"To prevent the bike from going on forever after a crash without someone actually on it, i want to suggest putting a timer in the game that makes it possible to reset the bike although it did not come to a complete stop. If the game "knows" when the biker has fallen off (which I expect it does) then it should allow a bike reset after <insert variable here> seconds. After let's say 10 seconds the bike usually has come to a stop and if it did not, it would not be unreasonable to allow for a reset imho."
I myself have had quite a lot of this problem.
Yesterday for example I fell off my bike at 30 mph while doing the UGP circuit. Out of curiosity I timed the time it took for the bike to come to a full stop. 1min and 35secs. At the time of the drop the bike shuffled along the road on its side, touched a piece of grass and then got itself back onto two wheels and carried on down the road going from side to side until it came to level piece of grass and came to stop by an invisible wall . This situation is just not right. If it had been a race then for sure other riders would have been impeded or brought down by an out of control bike with no ride aboard, on the track.
1min 35secs is not an acceptable for a time loss
Surely the answer must be that a time switch of some sort could be implemented into the GPB system.
As for re spawning, that's a different matter, as the original question asked, was for an answer to a problem that is is much like the one I have described above.
I hope I have made my point clear and thank you for reading.
Seajay
Quote from: Seajay on January 20, 2014, 08:38:03 PM
Surely the answer must be that a time switch of some sort could be implemented into the GPB system.
Not that surely. The proper answer is to modify something in order to avoid having a bike that is THAT stable when no rider is on: that's not realistic.
Putting a timer, a button, invisible walls or whichever other trick is not a solution, is a workaround.
But you're right on the fact that the topic has been drifting towards the other problem (respawn logic). The two however are related as many are asking to change the respawn logic because of the "unstoppable bike" problem (which IMO is bad reasoning).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 08:49:27 PM
Quote from: Seajay on January 20, 2014, 08:38:03 PM
Surely the answer must be that a time switch of some sort could be implemented into the GPB system.
Not that surely. The proper answer is to modify something in order to avoid having a bike that is THAT stable when no rider is on: that's not realistic.
Putting a timer, a button, invisible walls or whichever other trick is not a solution, is a workaround.
Exactly right MaX, I am with you on that! It is just not realistic to have sooo much stabilizing effect like the bikes have in GPB atm. It is there since beta3 if I remember correctly - it wasnt there before. Dunno, if it is related to the simulation of the steering damper Piboso introduced?
If this over-stabilizing effect gets sorted out we will not have to talk about a reset-timer... which imho does not correspond to the simulation approach of GPB at all - therefore it should be avoided.
Quote from: HornetMaX on January 20, 2014, 08:27:16 PM
Quote from: RBp on January 20, 2014, 07:13:14 PM
tracks like enna or any with grass next to wall could stones be added to upset the bike and make it fall? prince gorge has stone models and if you hit them you fall off. tracks like Avus this would not work with the track edge next to tarmac, maybe a partail work around?
That would be plenty of work for track modders for just a dirty workaround. Let's solve the thing properly.
MaX.
can we solve the suspenstion so it don't crash on every bump which is frustrating. that the same kind of problem?
Quote from: RBp on January 21, 2014, 04:50:58 PM
can we solve the suspenstion so it don't crash on every bump which is frustrating. that the same kind of problem?
That's a different problem (even if when you touch the physics, everything is affected).
MaX.
I get nervous in sims with people talking about different difficulty settings. For me I came to GPBikes because it was hard, you fall off a lot. I worry about settings I've played sims for over 20 years and when there are difficulty levels it all comes down to the lowest common player, meaning easy mode. You'll search through pages of servers of quick thrill ride race servers. That kind of racing is what Milestone games are for. You search the list and find one realistic one out of the bunch.
Quote from: RBp on January 21, 2014, 04:50:58 PM
can we solve the suspenstion so it don't crash on every bump which is frustrating. that the same kind of problem?
That's just something that can usually be solved by practice. For me its just taking those corners often enough, in different ways, until i find something that works and then ill be fine. Haven't found one corner that couldn't be mastered by practicing it (a lot).