PiBoSo Official Forum

10 weeks after buying my licence I can say GPB works for me much better as I thought.  :)
In the last years I had a look at this forum here from time to time. That sounded to me like problems, problems and more problems: core.exe crashes every times, joining problems, massive jump start bugs, and so on.
Now, after some test races and four official races I'm pleasantly surprised.  :)
No technical problems for me in all races (only yesterday at Bugatti I had a freezes in quali and in a test practice, but I think it's a track problem).
So all in all I think principially GPB is ridable and stable.
I don't need longer tracks (that's too vigorous for me - I'm 52  ;) ) and the graphics are good enough for me.

The things that GPB impoved most at the moment are for me:
1. Because we see in Moto2 championchip all in all a relative arcadic, chaotic driving style there should be more consequences in case of crashes: The rider have to run to the bike and/or the bike gets a small damage determinated by crashes/collissions and/or a decreation of driver healthy or something else.
2. During online racing I see only minimal warping of the other drivers  :) (except Alex Nogueira, but I think it's normal because he has a ping more than 200 - it's no accusation to you, Alex  :) ).
But in replays all other drivers warped quite bad. To get a really possibility to punish antisocial driving style like returning to track without considering traffic a better replay quality would be desirable.

Apart from that GPB is - at the moment ;) - already fine for me - with only some very small issues like unvisible leather paintings.

BR Olaf

P.S.: Selfmade I have heard that some people have core.exe problems, so that should be number 0 ;) in priority list (because in this thread I write my personal valuation only this one sentence about this here).

I haven't taken part in a race recently, so I'm not going to comment the stability issues (i.e., core.exe and things like that) under heavy load. However, I think your comments on things that can be improved are spot on (and BTW, I love the "Crash and you're out" idea suggested by Hawk, I'd really like to see that in the future).

Quote from: Tommaso Levato on March 26, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
I haven't taken part in a race recently, so I'm not going to comment the stability issues (i.e., core.exe and things like that) under heavy load. However, I think your comments on things that can be improved are spot on (and BTW, I love the "Crash and you're out" idea suggested by Hawk, I'd really like to see that in the future).

What? It is the worst idea ever...

Watch this! Some info because the vid its in italian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBiSM39fTFk

Category: CIV Superbike
Track: Mugello
Rider: Michele Pirro

Michele Pirro lose the rear in the FIRST corner. There are just 12 laps in this race.

Lap 1/12

Now Pirro has +30 seconds from the last rider.

But after some laps other 5-6 are out.
The remains riders in 2:18... Pirro 2:14

Lap 8/12

Leader in 2:16... Pirro 2:12.801

Lap 9/12

Michele Pirro is 3th

Lap 10/12

Michele Pirro is 2th

Lap 11/12

Michele Pirro is 1st

;D

As a server side option it would be fine as everyone competing would be aware it was extreme hardcore mode  :)

Quote from: Blackheart on March 26, 2018, 08:05:52 PM
What? It is the worst idea ever...

Watch this! Some info because the vid its in italian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBiSM39fTFk

I stand by my opinion. While it is true that in real life a crash doesn't necessarily mean the end of the race, that's what you usually get when you go to the ground.

the easy thing...just depend the crash on the initial bike speed and how fast it decelerates. If the bike crashes at 200 kph and stops to 0 withing one second - you are out. If the bike crashes at 60 kph and slows down to 0 within 2 seconds you can pick up the bike and continute the ride...
Anyway why we never ride in wet conditions?

Quote from: KG_03 on March 27, 2018, 08:04:39 AM
the easy thing...just depend the crash on the initial bike speed and how fast it decelerates. If the bike crashes at 200 kph and stops to 0 withing one second - you are out. If the bike crashes at 60 kph and slows down to 0 within 2 seconds you can pick up the bike and continute the ride...
Anyway why we never ride in wet conditions?

This +1

Also, racing in the wet is (well was) actually quite fun and challanging in GPB. Especially with a drying track ;D

Quote from: Tommaso Levato on March 26, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
I haven't taken part in a race recently, so I'm not going to comment the stability issues (i.e., core.exe and things like that) under heavy load. However, I think your comments on things that can be improved are spot on (and BTW, I love the "Crash and you're out" idea suggested by Hawk, I'd really like to see that in the future).

Quote from: Tommaso Levato on March 26, 2018, 09:03:56 PM

Quote from: Blackheart on March 26, 2018, 08:05:52 PM
What? It is the worst idea ever...

Watch this! Some info because the vid its in italian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBiSM39fTFk

I stand by my opinion. While it is true that in real life a crash doesn't necessarily mean the end of the race, that's what you usually get when you go to the ground.

Thank you for your support on my suggestion Tommasso... Nice to see someone who understands where I'm coming from with that idea.  ;) 8)

While I can understand others distaste for such an idea as: "Crash and your out" scenario, I think it comes from the fact that riders like that prefer the arcade style of being able to get straight back on their bike and carry on without any consequences of their actions and still stand a chance of winning the race?

For me personally I'd rather replace the fear of killing myself(as in real life) with the still very real fear of one crash and your out(in the simulation) to make me realise that I cannot ride like an idiot and get away with it and still win the race......
I suspect that Blackheart is one of those, together with a good few others in the community, that likes to make mistakes and yet still get back up and stand a chance of winning the race? :P   To my mind that results from playing too many hours on Milestone MotoGP type "Games" throughout their life! Lol!  ;D
Just a little banter added in there guys so keep your hair on! No disrespect intended! Lol!  ;D 8)

But above all this, my suggestion was for the "one crash and your out" option being implemented as a server-side "option" only, so that it can be turned on and off depending on how realistic an event organiser wants their event to be, and also to greatly promote sensible riding styles and attitudes in any race events that riders compete in..... Sounds good to me!  ;D 8)

Having said all this, I do like the idea of bike damage on a crash and also time being spent on a rider animation to run back to the bike and pick it up before they carry on racing with a damaged bike.... But as I've said before: A lot of the scenarios being put forward will likely result in the riders involved rage quitting because they've lost too much time and don't stand a chance of winning the race.

Asked for many times before, but I'll ask again now: I would like to see the "Rag-Doll" physics being implemented for the rider.... That would add an extra element of fun and realism to the sim during race accidents.  ;D

But yeah, overall this: To replace real life fear you have to add something that will generate a similar fear in the simulation itself, and I think the "Crash and your out" optional scenario would do it nicely. :)

Does everyone forget that fact that in real life you have more control, feedback than in game? A mistake can more easily be avoided in real life than in gpbikes. Not to mention just crashes because of connection or some bugs, slick curbs, track edges... .

If we would implement the "1 crash and you're out" rule than nobody would be scoring points in championship races. Even if I ride carefull there is a 90% chance over a 20 lap race that i'll have that stupid crash where you clip the edge of a curb or maybe just a front tuck because you don't have any feedback and the amount of control that you have in real life.


I'm all for a penalisation system for crashes just not a drastic one as this one. I don't think it would have the desired effect.

Yes but in real life you also dont have people going kamakazi into the first corner. Smahing into the barriere and then picking the bike up and going on with their race.

1 crash and you're out is a silly idea but a progressive damage would be better (just low siding the bike wont write it off but you cant keep doing it)

And as with most things in the simulation settings it should be able to be turned off like people are asking for

Quote from: matty0l215 on March 28, 2018, 09:15:17 AM
Yes but in real life you also dont have people going kamakazi into the first corner. Smahing into the barriere and then picking the bike up and going on with their race.

1 crash and you're out is a silly idea but a progressive damage would be better (just low siding the bike wont write it off but you cant keep doing it)

And as with most things in the simulation settings it should be able to be turned off like people are asking for

i completely agree with that statement, although just having a good penalisation in a structured championship will also improve the quality of riding in most races. I feel like the crashing thing is also going to penalise the people who get unlucky with a bug or connection or something, whereas a good organised penalisation system will not. And by good penalisation system I mean a team watching the replays and reviewing incidents.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 28, 2018, 09:09:26 AM
Does everyone forget that fact that in real life you have more control, feedback than in game? A mistake can more easily be avoided in real life than in gpbikes. Not to mention just crashes because of connection or some bugs, slick curbs, track edges... .

If we would implement the "1 crash and you're out" rule than nobody would be scoring points in championship races. Even if I ride carefull there is a 90% chance over a 20 lap race that i'll have that stupid crash where you clip the edge of a curb or maybe just a front tuck because you don't have any feedback and the amount of control that you have in real life.

This.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 28, 2018, 09:09:26 AM
Does everyone forget that fact that in real life you have more control, feedback than in game? A mistake can more easily be avoided in real life than in gpbikes. Not to mention just crashes because of connection or some bugs, slick curbs, track edges... .

If we would implement the "1 crash and you're out" rule than nobody would be scoring points in championship races. Even if I ride carefull there is a 90% chance over a 20 lap race that i'll have that stupid crash where you clip the edge of a curb or maybe just a front tuck because you don't have any feedback and the amount of control that you have in real life.


I'm all for a penalisation system for crashes just not a drastic one as this one. I don't think it would have the desired effect.

I disagree. It is possible not to crash even in a long race, I've done it in almost all the official races I've taken part in. It is just a skill that needs to be developed (which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be that relevant to most riders). Now, I realize that the "Crash and you're out" mode is extreme, and that we should find a middle ground. In this regard, the "Full crash" idea suggested by Piboso a couple of days ago seems fair to me.

But, just to reiterate, the idea that it's inevitable to go to the ground at least one in a race is questionable.

Quote from: Tommaso Levato on March 28, 2018, 09:49:09 AM
I disagree. It is possible not to crash even in a long race, I've done it in almost all the ufficial races I've taken part in. It is just a skill that needs to be developed (which, unfortunately, doesn't seem to be that relevant to most riders). Now, I realize that the "Crash and you're out" mode is extreme, and that we should find a middle ground. In this regard, the "Full crash" idea suggested by Piboso a couple of days ago seems fair to me.

But, just to reiterate, the idea that it's inevitable to go to the ground at least one in a race is questionable.

I also have raced without crashing but it seems unlikely, especially on some other tracks than victoria or something, Try Johor...
There are many more things in gpbikes that make you crash than i real life. Therefore a crash is much more likely to happen in gpbikes than in real life.

To avoid crashing in this game 100% and never crash, I would have to go 5seconds slower than what I can do (with only risking 1 -2 crashes in a race) because of these extra "dangers" in gpbikes. I real life you drop like 1second a lap maximum compared to the absolute limit to avoid crashing.

This 1second going slower seems to also be the difference for me between the a quali lap and my race pace (which I average 1 or 2 crashes over 20 laps and dependant on the track).

I feel like making a comparison from gpbikes to real life is difficult. Doing a 20lap race on a difficult track at decent pace with racing and lapping traffic seems fairly impossible.

0.5 sec lag in a corner e you are out...

If the option is there it is still only optional you wouldnt have to use it :P

Those sorts of crashes would be very unfortunate but i would rather have a feild of riders who ride with respect than a bunch of riders who accept crashing as a part of common riding practice

QuoteDoes everyone forget that fact that in real life you have more control, feedback than in game? A mistake can more easily be avoided in real life than in gpbikes. Not to mention just crashes because of connection or some bugs, slick curbs, track edges... .

Absolutely, this point often forget friends of the perfect simulation.
I'm not a "hardliner".  ;) Therefore I'm not for "crash and out", but I'm for relative small problem in case of a crash/es for the rest of the race - if  possible in independency from the kind of crash(es) like KG_03 said.
Only after let's say 10 medium crashes or four highspeed crashes should come the totally out.

BR Olaf 

It is definitely possible to race long races without crashing. But it is also true, like Wimp says, that we have less feedback in GPB than irl.

So I think, although I would absolutely love the idea to have realistic crash/DNF-rates (~80%...? I would estimate out of 10 crashes only about 2times one can continue racing), it might need some relaxation in GPB. My idea would be to have a sort of g-force related crash-and-you-are-out relation. If the g-forces of the crash exceed a certain pre-defined limit, the crash would result in a DNF. If it is below the threshold, the rider should be able to walk to the bike and continue racing.

And it should be a server side option to be able to set the threshold value of g-force of an impact, which makes continuation of the race impossible (--> DNF). So if one wishes to allow only high-speed crashes to result in a DNF, then the threshold should be high, if one wishes to have even slow-speed crashes result in DNF, then the threshold should be very low.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on March 28, 2018, 11:27:20 AM
It is definitely possible to race long races without crashing.

Its possible sure, but I remember years ago, I won the only Endurance event race here, a very long race and with the worst bike ever --> the default 125, but I crashed 1 time for a bike in middle at the track after an incident.

Imho its possible finish a race without crashes but its very rare.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on March 28, 2018, 11:27:20 AM
It is definitely possible to race long races without crashing. But it is also true, like Wimp says, that we have less feedback in GPB than irl.

So I think, although I would absolutely love the idea to have realistic crash/DNF-rates (~80%...? I would estimate out of 10 crashes only about 2times one can continue racing), it might need some relaxation in GPB. My idea would be to have a sort of g-force related crash-and-you-are-out relation. If the g-forces of the crash exceed a certain pre-defined limit, the crash would result in a DNF. If it is below the threshold, the rider should be able to walk to the bike and continue racing.

And it should be a server side option to be able to set the threshold value of g-force of an impact, which makes continuation of the race impossible (--> DNF). So if one wishes to allow only high-speed crashes to result in a DNF, then the threshold should be high, if one wishes to have even slow-speed crashes result in DNF, then the threshold should be very low.

Yep... I could well agree to that Stout, sounds good to me.  ;)

I would just like some(any) sort of crash system that promotes sensible riding and penalises crashing.... In other words, if you ride within your limits then the chances are you'll not crash.... If you push your limits then it's likely that at some stage during the race you'll make a mistake and crash and that should be penalised with a poorly handling bike due to bike damage..... But as I've said before, all these solutions will also promote rage-quitters; the ones who quite races because they know they don't stand a chance of winning anymore during a race. Maybe there is some sort of server data that can prove whether a rider rage-quits or if in actual fact it was the server itself that broke the connection? Then something could be done about those types of riders too.  :P

Crashing is what riders do when they go beyond their skill levels or lose focus and make a mistake..... If you can't hack it without crashing then your simply not as good a rider as you think you are, simple.... you can't give yourselves excuses for crashing and expect it to be the accepted norm. Lol! :P  ;D

Quote from: Blackheart on March 26, 2018, 08:05:52 PM

Quote from: Tommaso Levato on March 26, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
I haven't taken part in a race recently, so I'm not going to comment the stability issues (i.e., core.exe and things like that) under heavy load. However, I think your comments on things that can be improved are spot on (and BTW, I love the "Crash and you're out" idea suggested by Hawk, I'd really like to see that in the future).

What? It is the worst idea ever...

Watch this! Some info because the vid its in italian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBiSM39fTFk

Category: CIV Superbike
Track: Mugello
Rider: Michele Pirro

Michele Pirro lose the rear in the FIRST corner. There are just 12 laps in this race.

Lap 1/12

Now Pirro has +30 seconds from the last rider.

But after some laps other 5-6 are out.
The remains riders in 2:18... Pirro 2:14

Lap 8/12

Leader in 2:16... Pirro 2:12.801

Lap 9/12

Michele Pirro is 3th

Lap 10/12

Michele Pirro is 2th

Lap 11/12

Michele Pirro is 1st

;D

So, I watched the video as you suggested. It isn't applicable because he low sided at low speed in the rain. If he had crashed like the guy in the lead up [bike flipping end over end many times] he would not have remounted as there wouldn't have been anything left to ride.

As I have suggested before, if you low side at <=50 kph then you run to the bike, take ten seconds to pick it up, and go on your way. If you crash at 250 kph, you're done.

Quote from: Blackheart on March 28, 2018, 11:33:43 AM

Quote from: Stout Johnson on March 28, 2018, 11:27:20 AM
It is definitely possible to race long races without crashing.

Its possible sure, but I remember years ago, I won the only Endurance event race here, a very long race and with the worst bike ever --> the default 125, but I crashed 1 time for a bike in middle at the track after an incident.

Imho its possible finish a race without crashes but its very rare.

It really isn't all that rare. While the races I participate in are not heavily populated, my race completion without a crash rate is well over 50 percent. Two of the last three races I have done on Johor were crash free and the one I crashed in was a low side in the middle of the chicane.

If one can't get through a race crash free, perhaps one shouldn't be racing...

Or...

If one can't get through a race crash free, perhaps PiBoSo's adage 'Obviously your ambition outweighs your talent' applies...

No offense Uber, but you are incredibly slow.  I could probably crash once a lap and still beat you.

Is there anything less simulation than an arbitrary "if you crash at greater than a certain amount of speed you are out" feature? You either code a damage model or you do nothing.  With the current state of the game there's really no sense in any of this.  Let make the riding experience more predictable before we worry about punishing people for falling.

Quote from: Phathry25 on March 29, 2018, 12:36:21 AM
No offense Uber, but you are incredibly slow.  I could probably crash once a lap and still beat you.

Is there anything less simulation than an arbitrary "if you crash at greater than a certain amount of speed you are out" feature? You either code a damage model or you do nothing.  With the current state of the game there's really no sense in any of this.  Let make the riding experience more predictable before we worry about punishing people for falling.

In the past I have readily admitted that I am more than slow on anything faster than a Moto3 bike. I have not lined up in the International since the first race because I am too slow to competently compete AND I crash the Moto2 bikes WAY too often. My participation would be little more than a hindrance to the other participants. I was not, however, the slowest person on the track and a number of much faster participants quit because they repeatedly crashed and, I guess, got frustrated. Oh, and just so you know, my primary objectives when I line up for a race are to complete it WITHOUT crashing and to record consistent lap times. If I have to go a little slower in order to achieve these objectives, so be it.

I am pretty sure most bikes are unrideable after a 250 kph crash so it would be far more 'simulation' than being able to continue as if nothing happened. I am also pretty sure most bikes are rideable after a slow speed low side so having to run to the bike before heading off would also be reasonable. A steeply curved graduation of damage between these extremes would seem appropriate.

I do not recall ever having seen you on one of my NAFPRA Moto3 Servers. Perhaps you should come out and play sometime...

Quote from: Phathry25 on March 29, 2018, 12:36:21 AM
No offense Uber, but you are incredibly slow. 

Here we go  ::) here is the speed discussion. This is not the point. The point is, this is a sim and people should not be taking all kinds of risks, crash multiple times and still win. In real life the art is to be fast without crashing. Almost anybody can go fast for one lap. But doing it consistently over a race distance or even over a season, cannot be done by everybody. Look at Iannone, he can be fast. But he does it by taking more risk than others. That's why he crashed so often, never would be in the championship picture and that's why he got dumped by Ducati.

Quote from: Phathry25 on March 29, 2018, 12:36:21 AM
I could probably crash once a lap and still beat you.

This actually shows the dilemma.

Quote from: Phathry25 on March 29, 2018, 12:36:21 AM
Is there anything less simulation than an arbitrary "if you crash at greater than a certain amount of speed you are out" feature? You either code a damage model or you do nothing.   

Well not sure where you get the link to speed from. My proposal was to link the DNF's to the amount of g-force which occured during crash. And that is not contra-simulation. What do you think a damage model is? It is basically an estimation on which parts brake/get damaged at which g-forces during a crash. And which parts prevent the bike from continuing to race. So using a link between g-forces and DNF's is the easiest way of getting a non-visual damage model  (we won't get a visual damage model from Piboso).

Quote from: Phathry25 on March 29, 2018, 12:36:21 AM
No offense Uber, but you are incredibly slow.  I could probably crash once a lap and still beat you.

Is there anything less simulation than an arbitrary "if you crash at greater than a certain amount of speed you are out" feature? You either code a damage model or you do nothing.  With the current state of the game there's really no sense in any of this.  Let make the riding experience more predictable before we worry about punishing people for falling.

This was my point, if you are 10 seconds slower imho is not possible crash but where is the fun? I prefer keep my race pace, if I have a incident... who care Im to PC not on a bike, I can continue to play. Because its just a hobby.

If you want to simulate real life things you might aswell make the simulation so that the result is the same as in real life, what i mean by that is that the fastest guy propably wins the race if he is consistent and doesn't try to run qualifying laps. Just like in real life, the race pace should be about 1 - 1.5 seconds slower than qualifying lap (assuming ur running harder tyres in the race).

In real life the riders are able to do this pace without crashing, the one that can do it a bit better than the rest will win. So therefore we should try to simulate the pace of the racers as that would be most accurate and to be honest the pace we run in game compared to quali laps is pretty similar in difference than in real life. Its just that real life gives more control of situations whereas the game there is much more that can go wrong.

If we would implement a damage system it could cause that pace to drop even more to a point where people are riding just in fear of crashing and not flowing on the track. In real life you don't "fear" crashing when you are racing especially not when you feel comfortable.

Making a damage system will make people much slower than they are right now. Which would actually get us further from the realistic pace simulation...

The whole point is to make people drive less reckless, a penalty system should be designed, not a damage system.

Anyway, a damage system should be at the bottom of the priority list right now as its difficult to design properly and brings lots of negatives with it in my opinion.

And i'm not saying all this because I crash during races, I actually don't crash that often...

@Wimp:
First of all, I can follow you arguments. They seem logic and than in itself is something that should be applauded. :) But I have a different view on some of your remarks.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 08:02:22 AM
If we would implement a damage system it could cause that pace to drop even more to a point where people are riding just in fear of crashing and not flowing on the track.

I have done many races where I did not crash and I had a pace that was in a realistic relation to my qualifying times. It is doable in GPB as it doable irl. It would be even easier to do with some physics flaws out of the way (which we all agree on should be the prerequisite). But I agree with you, that irl you have much more feedback from the bike. So to be able to do it in GPB, you need much more practice in GPB than irl. All has to be automatic. The braking points, the downshifts, the amount of leaning. All has to be automatic. And I disagree that real life riders don't have a fear for crashing.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 08:02:22 AM
In real life you don't "fear" crashing when you are racing especially not when you feel comfortable.

Not sure whether "fear" is the right word. But a risk-reward-relation is always part of racing. You can clearly see that real life riders often could be faster, but they don't try to push it in order to be able to finish the race. Just look at Dovizioso last year. He was a master at this. He could hold off for the 3/4 of a race, not doing more than he needed to do. Then he would do a push within the last laps to seperate himself from the pack. Real life racing is always not only about all out racing but also about risk management. And those guys we see on TV are the absolute best of the best. Many of those you see in a GPB server are just casuals at best.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 08:02:22 AM
Making a damage system will make people much slower than they are right now. Which would actually get us further from the realistic pace simulation...

That would only be true if you did not have to care about crashes in qualifying and would not have to care about crashing in racing. Irl, riders very rarely go at 100% risk, even in practices or qualifyings. Because you always have to take into consideration, that you would totally demolish your bike, you would lose ~15mins to go back to the pits to be able to go out again (if you have a second bike), you might injure yourself which hurts, you might injure yourself long-term which might cost your championship aspirations, you might ruin the engine if it runs in the sand pit etc. etc. There's a thousand reasons to take into consideration. And those apply for all riders.

That is why the lap times irl would also be much faster if players could never be injured, had unlimited amount of bikes available if they crash. They would risk so much more. So your argument concerning the difference between realistic gap between Q and Race times does not apply. We would have the exact same as irl, if we could not go all out at all times in GPB.

So your argument is to not have realistic damage because the difference between Q and Race times would be too big? If we had simulation of rider injuries and limited bikes to crash we would have the same difference. I think in the SBK X title there were realism settings which allowed for player injuries and also took bike repair times into consideration. That was pretty awesome. I don't necessarily say we need that (although I would love to have that). But you have to see why your argumentation is not based on the correct assumptions.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 08:02:22 AM
The whole point is to make people drive less reckless, a penalty system should be designed, not a damage system.

So I should be penalized if I lowside on my own without anyone else involved? I guess you don't mean that. You probably mean only for crashes between riders? But how do you implement that? This is hard/impossible to code in order not to penalize the rider that was the victim. It would need real players to act as race stewards. That would be possible. But probably not too many volunteers to do that.

But it would still not take away the unfair and unrealistic advantage that players that crash often should have much less chances to win. Being slower without crashing should always be promoted. It is realistic. And if we had a general approach to avoid crashing first, I think we might see much more realistic races. From my observation the way it is at the moment, people always try to go all out, try to hammer a time and go up there on the time sheet. They crash 20times until they finally manage to get 1 complete lap and then applaud themselves for their time. They condition themselves to drive recklessly. Then those people struggle in the race because after 2-3 laps max they crash, then get nervous, crash even more and finally are frustrated with the result because they feel they under-achieved ("well I had 3rd fastest time in Q, but I only finished 9th ... I deserve to be 3rd in the race."). Or they rage-quit in the race.

If you want an example of how dificult a player to player impact penelty system is to impliment. Just look at the 8 Codemasters F1 games. They've had 9 years to get it right with a massively larger resource pool and they still managed to fuck it up for years.. it works, sure, but it has never been perfect and bogus penelties are still given.

Now transfer that to a beta game with 1-2 people (i belive) working on it. A basic damage system that would detour riders from riding reclessly would be a better option

Not nessecerrly from being a bad rider but if no one wants them to race because they keep crashing into others they will soon learn to be more courtious to other riders. Doesnt mean to say they have to slow down.

And if they still dont learn to be a courtious rider then they can be penilised for that by the community (not being allowed to race in championship etc.)

GPB is meant as a simulator not an arcade game last time i checked. And surley the added challenge of racing with the knowlege that if you crash you might balls up your race adds to the fun of it being a simulator. Take damage away from any of the top level car racing games abd they could decend into a demolition derby if allowed to by its community.

Oops my post became very long. My main point is: I would like to see more real-life-like track behaviour. I think we need more real-life-like consequences for that. I see Wimp's point that racing should not feel like a crash avoiding walk on egg-shells. But if we have consistent physics, real life like races are definitely possible in GPB. We already have that with experienced riders. And one has to practice and practice and practice. I had the best races with fellow GPB-veterans in onboard-view-only races. Close racing, few to none crashes, consistent paces and gentlemen-like fair behaviour. That's how it should be imo.

Imho a better risk-reward ratio would generally help to establish consistent race approach. Ride consistently without crashing will make one fast automatically sooner or later (each has his own plateau of course, not everyone has the same talent). At the moment we generally have a all-out fastest-lap-time-is-all-that-counts-even-if-I-crash-9-out-of10-laps-approach. And that makes for bad racing. My proposal would be to make a adjustable g-force related 'damage-system' which might result in a DNF. 

@Wimp: If you are too worried about every crash causing DNF's, then you should be able to adjust the g-force to a high enough value so that only high-impact (=high level of recklessness/risky behaviour) crashes result in a DNF.

I would even welcome options á la SBK X and SBK 2011 as having calculated repair times for the bike, possible injuries to the rider calculated which might prevent finishing the race event, having to drive into pits all the time instead of just clicking 'go to pits' etc.  8) that would totally add to the sim experience and to the level of immersion.

Quote from: matty0l215 on March 29, 2018, 09:56:53 AM
Take damage away from any of the top level car racing games abd they could decend into a demolition derby if allowed to by its community.

Good point. Totally agree.

By penalisation system I mean a system that has a team review incidents that happend during race/quali ,... and give penalties to people that deserve it.
I can agree on a scaleable/adjustable damage system although I still think it has too many negatives in a game where you have lag spikes, super slippery curbs, unclear track edges, connection lag and a lack of feedback. Too many things you have very little control of that do not exist in real life.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on March 29, 2018, 09:14:21 AM

That is why the lap times irl would also be much faster if players could never be injured, had unlimited amount of bikes available if they crash. They would risk so much more. So your argument concerning the difference between realistic gap between Q and Race times does not apply. We would have the exact same as irl, if we could not go all out at all times in GPB.

If you really believe that without any injuries, unlimited bikes, these guys would go much faster than I think you don't grasp how skilled these guys are. They are always ON the limit, if they go over it, they feel it/ catch the bike most of the times. Its not because the bike is sliding that you crash. If there was no risk in what they were doing I doubt they would even be going 0.2 faster than with risks.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on March 29, 2018, 09:14:21 AM
Not sure whether "fear" is the right word. But a risk-reward-relation is always part of racing. You can clearly see that real life riders often could be faster, but they don't try to push it in order to be able to finish the race. Just look at Dovizioso last year. He was a master at this. He could hold off for the 3/4 of a race, not doing more than he needed to do. Then he would do a push within the last laps to seperate himself from the pack. Real life racing is always not only about all out racing but also about risk management. And those guys we see on TV are the absolute best of the best. Many of those you see in a GPB server are just casuals at best.

I doubt Dovi was doing that because he didn't want to risk it. I think its more of a tyre conservation strategie.
If a rider is all out faster than the rest, he will try to break away and take the necessary risks with it. he wont stay back untill the end of the race to minimize the risk.
For example, do you think Rossi  in this years first race in Qatar wasn't going 100% when he saw marquez and Dovi get away?
Dovi and Marc for sure were giving it 100%, same as all other riders behind them. The only reason they stayed behind eachother at the start was because all their pace were pretty similar (max 0.5sec difference) and they knew tyres would be an issue in the end.

The only thing stopping these guys to go faster is the amount of grip there is, not the amount of risk they are willing to take. They only start limiting their risk when a championship end is in sight and they are competing for the top spots. This has more to do with securing points than actually caring for themselves.


I do agree that the average person in gpbikes rides too reckless.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
If you really believe that without any injuries, unlimited bikes, these guys would go much faster than I think you don't grasp how skilled these guys are. They are always ON the limit, if they go over it, they feel it/ catch the bike most of the times. Its not because the bike is sliding that you crash. If there was no risk in what they were doing I doubt they would even be going 0.2 faster than with risks.

I don't think they would be going much faster in one lap over the course of many laps. You are right, I would say they'd be only marginally faster for their best lap time if the number of laps is large enough. What I meant was, irl you have a tendency to approach the limit 'from the bottom', by getting progressively faster. Each lap you push a bit more, because falling has consequences. In GPB people have a tendency to approach the limit 'from above', by going all out from the get-go, crashing a lot. Until they manage to get away with everything and finish a lap. And that sort of conditions the average GPB rider to ride recklessly, with a tendency to push over the limit. I think that is one reason why people crash so often in races.

Quote from: Wimp #97 on March 29, 2018, 11:38:58 AM
The only thing stopping these guys to go faster is the amount of grip there is, not the amount of risk they are willing to take.

I don't want to argue over this, because it is not that relevant for the inital topic. But in a race you cannot go at 100% risk, otherwise you won't finish. Humans are not robots, we all have a margin of error. And if you aim at going 100%, you might be able to do that for 5 laps, but you are going to hit 100.1% sooner or later and you are out of the race.  If you aim at 100% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 1% chance. If you aim at 99% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 50% chance. If you aim at at 98% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 80% chance etc. etc. If you aim at at 90% of your limit each lap, you might finish a race with 99% chance. And those percentages differ for each rider, based on their talent. It is always a risk-reward ratio. Nobody can consistently go at the limit and expect to finish a race. Great riders are fast AND have a smaller margin of error, so they can go fast more consistently.

I remember a Ayrton Senna quote. I cannot find it by googling, but from the top of my head it was to the effect that one can approach 100% risk during Qualifying and during some laps in a race. But over a whole race distance one has to resort to 95% of one's own maximum, otherwise one will crash out. A friend of mine had that quote printed on his wall and I thought that makes a lot sense.

Btw, why do you think Rossi has a tendency to have far better race results than qualifying? My take is that Rossi has a tendency to take 1% less risk in qualifying because he knows it is not worth it. Taking that 1% more could cost him the season (and he has only 2-3 seasons left) while all he can gain is 3-5 spots in the starting grid. And in the race he has the ability to race very consistent at a high level out-performing riders that are not faster than him, but were willing to take higher risks in qualifying. According to your logic (every rider always is at 100%), there would be no difference in race and qualifying pace between riders...

First thing to do to be fairplay online:
SAY HELLO, HI, HOLA, CIAO, SALUT, KONICHIUA(sry for spelling).
It's easy and very simple for every people who can use a keyboard.
Thank you

and guys, why not trying to give a better taste to that feature and do an increase system.

I mean, first crash, like 10 seconds off, the bike reappear on the SIDE (not on the track) and go.
If the guys is good, better than the others (as Pirro in the video) he can still win if he is fast but take care of his riding.

Second crash : out. Or 20 sc. then out at third crash. Something in this idea kind of.  ;D

I would say that before going to race with others (once my rig is finished) i would wait until i know i'm capable. That's the first statment, until then, i'll practice with other riders or alone but at least, get to a good average level before going racing. i'll be ashame otherwise... :'(

Look what happened to Cluzel on the last SPP race, he just lost the front, the bike slided on the left, not a big crash but the demi-handlebar was broken, he is out... I think damaging compare to the type of crash is too complex to program but saying that over a certain limit, let's say 150km/h the bike is ruined, the player is out right away, under that speed he has 10 sec then....

That remains simple to implement no ? And sure enough, as a server side option that will be specified before.

I'm like some of you in here, trying to be as perfect as possible on the track, doing my best to lick every corner as if i was drawing it, and mostly under 90%  than over, and my best wish is a endurance race (3 pilots - 24h) as we did lonnnnnnnnnnng time ago with GP500.  ;)

Quote from: janaucarre on March 29, 2018, 06:14:19 PM
First thing to do to be fairplay online:
SAY HELLO, HI, HOLA, CIAO, SALUT, KONICHIUA(sry for spelling).
It's easy and very simple for every people who can use a keyboard.
Thank you

Yes Janau, thats the first step indeed.
Second step is to finish the race.
Third is to finish the championship.


I haven't seen yet, in ...don't know ..8 years? , a race that finish with the same number of riders that were in the grid at start.
Not to mention the euphoria the first race of a championship with, lets say 14 riders, and finish the championship with 3 riders.

Discusing a method of penalyzing a rider for crashing into others is a bit useless. Most of those riders crash into you at first corner, makes you lose 20 secs, and they disconnect in lap 3 because they aren't winning the race.
Do you really think punishing a rider with 10 or 20 secs will make any difference?

Is all a matter of respect, respect is something that we can't teach in a forum. Respect is something you learn during your life, and something your parents teach you.
Respect is finishing a race even if you are the last one of the pack 40 secs behind. Respect is finishing a championship you signed in, so organizers doesn't feel like idiots doing a hard work for others to have fun.

So we only need mature riders, not a punishing system. Shit happenz and even mature and respectful riders crash into others, but in those cases the first thing you see in the screen is :  I'm sorry ! , and in many cases the culprit of the crash waits for the 'victim' to recover and let them pass. This is not necesary but shows others what respect means.

Well said. Such a shame it needs saying.

+1 Warlock!  ;)

Quote from: Warlock on March 30, 2018, 01:15:59 AM
Respect is something you learn during your life, and something your parents teach you.

I'm sure there's a missing "should" in the last part of your sentence :)

True Max, that must be a big part of the problem

Quote from: Warlock on March 30, 2018, 02:54:14 PM
True Max, that must be a big part of the problem

I've recently been to some "comptetitive" judo tournament for kids aged 8-14: the number of parents (fathers *and* mothers) I would have immediately terminated is just amazing.
No way these people could transmit any sort of respect to a kid. So the kid will grow up and become an asshole. Not his fault. But the problem is that he will have kids too one day ... :)

Yeah man, nice future to expect  ;D

Quote from: HornetMaX on March 30, 2018, 03:08:37 PM
I've recently been to some "comptetitive" judo tournament for kids aged 8-14: the number of parents (fathers *and* mothers) I would have immediately terminated is just amazing.
No way these people could transmit any sort of respect to a kid. So the kid will grow up and become an asshole. Not his fault. But the problem is that he will have kids too one day ... :)

I see that too. And I am under the impression that those parents which are assholes seem to have a higher reproduction rates. So this asshole behaviour seems to become the norm.

I finally made it through whole discussion. The end was worth reading all those posts, and I agree. Seeing how some people ride and can't say simple sorry or hello is growing.
Anyway as we speak about penalty system I have posted it before so I won't repeat myself. Anyway as we speak about realism I do not understan that we mention this and still play using chase cam. I know there are some fast players who ride onboard and some chase cam players who can be fast in onboard too but one of the reasons I often collide with other players is that I almost never see them until someone shows his front wheel. Also I had some cases that someone was overthaking me the opponent bike almost took me over but I just noticed it in the moment of contact and it was just a few simple polygons.

So in this matter I agree with Wimp that until we get sorted some problems like: physics, players behaviour and multiplayer bugs the damage system should not be implemented or very very simplified to lets say very high G values.

Why racing fascinates me? What is the thrill of racing for me?
The ambivalence: You have to be fast, but if you overdo it you get a big advantage. Because of that a race is not only a hotlapping competition.
The races we have at the moment are too much determinated by red. Green is too mild.  ;)
Why I already come with my proposals now?
My experiance with other racing simuations/games are: People grow accustomed easy at such things. The longer people have this unrealistic "advantage" the difficulter is it to cut from it.

QuoteFirst thing to do to be fairplay online:
SAY HELLO, HI, HOLA, CIAO, SALUT, KONICHIUA(sry for spelling).
It's easy and very simple for every people who can use a keyboard.
Thank you

I must say sometimes I don't say Hello. As I said at other place(s) I'm very destrictable. If I read a chat message I'm crashing with high confidence in the next corner.
I thought: Maybe other riders are equal to me. So sometimes I say hello, sometimes not. I'm ambivalent. At least it's not disrespect.

But otherwise I'm gape how other drivers can look around and gesture in difficult situations. Maybe I learn this some day, but at the moment I have to learn more important things.

To quit in an official race I find absolutely unsportic, but in example last week in the 20CET race 13 from 14 riders see the quecked flag. It's an high finishing rate.

BR Olaf

Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on April 01, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
.... Because of that a race is not only a hotlapping competition...
My experiance with other racing simuations/games are: People grow accustomed easy at such things. The longer people have this unrealistic "advantage" the difficulter is it to cut from it.

True

Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on April 01, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
I must say sometimes I don't say Hello. As I said at other place(s) I'm very destrictable. ......
I thought: Maybe other riders are equal to me. So sometimes I say hello, sometimes not. I'm ambivalent. At least it's not disrespect.

Thats totally understandable and riders know this.  You can reply when you get back to pit whithout being disrespectful.

Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on April 01, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
If I read a chat message I'm crashing with high confidence in the next corner.

hahaha yes  ;D , also trying to reply while on track lol.
GPB has chat reply custom messages mapped to keyboard keys, so its a matter of a keyboard click if you want.

Quote from: Olaf Lehmann on April 01, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
To quit in an official race I find absolutely unsportic

Thats the point

Quote from: KG_03 on April 01, 2018, 08:51:15 AM
Anyway as we speak about realism I do not understan that we mention this and still play using chase cam.

I neither understand it

Quote from: KG_03 on April 01, 2018, 08:51:15 AM
I know there are some fast players who ride onboard and some chase cam players who can be fast in onboard too but one of the reasons I often collide with other players is that I almost never see them until someone shows his front wheel. Also I had some cases that someone was overthaking me the opponent bike almost took me over but I just noticed it in the moment of contact and it was just a few simple polygons. 

I learnt this by ear. Using headphones you get used to how close of far , left or right, the other rider is due the sound of it.
To get used to it, look back when you can , not risking to crash, and roughly check the distance he is for the volume you hear.
I remember to think 'omg he is right behind me!' and when i looked back he was at 10 or 15 m.
When you hear that sound even closer and start moving to one side of your headphones, you know he is trying to show his front wheel. A split of a second look back will ensure if this is the case, and slowly will grow in you a natural situational awareness without even need to look back.

Other thing is , if the opponent is there ,.... is there,.. trying to close him not to let him pass will most times cause a crash.

Quote from: KG_03 on April 01, 2018, 08:51:15 AM
I finally made it through whole discussion. The end was worth reading all those posts, and I agree. Seeing how some people ride and can't say simple sorry or hello is growing.
Anyway as we speak about penalty system I have posted it before so I won't repeat myself. Anyway as we speak about realism I do not understan that we mention this and still play using chase cam. I know there are some fast players who ride onboard and some chase cam players who can be fast in onboard too but one of the reasons I often collide with other players is that I almost never see them until someone shows his front wheel. Also I had some cases that someone was overthaking me the opponent bike almost took me over but I just noticed it in the moment of contact and it was just a few simple polygons.

So in this matter I agree with Wimp that until we get sorted some problems like: physics, players behaviour and multiplayer bugs the damage system should not be implemented or very very simplified to lets say very high G values.

Totally agree on this!

Good suggestion Warlok. Unfortunately sometimes whene there are many bikes on the track I just hear one big rumor in headphones or dont hear anything at all ... but or what? Anyway I will try to let other guys pass as it is safer way. Just wanted to bring attention of some players that if they overtake keep in mind that someone is playing onboard and he will not see you or close the door without intention to crash or collide.

the maxhud plugin has a radar.

No no no...I know there is radar but I try to play as close to reality as possible. From mux hud I have only turned on gear indicator bcs my view set up make the dashboard invisible.

Quote from: KG_03 on April 01, 2018, 11:22:27 PM
No no no...

LOL  ;D,  i also see it like a sort of sacrilege  ;D  (with all my respect to Max  :) )

Quote from: KG_03 on April 01, 2018, 09:04:45 PM
Good suggestion Warlok. Unfortunately sometimes whene there are many bikes on the track I just hear one big rumor in headphones or dont hear anything at all ... but or what? Anyway I will try to let other guys pass as it is safer way. Just wanted to bring attention of some players that if they overtake keep in mind that someone is playing onboard and he will not see you or close the door without intention to crash or collide.

The same occur in real life. Riders are looking way ahead his own nose  ;D and cant see the opponent trying to 'insert' their bikes between you and the curb. The guy that overtakes has to make sure they are capable of put the bike at least at the same level of yours in their attempt,  so you can see it.

See how many have to correct their trayectory because they aren't aware of the bike behind and when they try to close the corner exit,..surprise! there is a bike already there.

https://www.youtube.com/v/t9uIMJRwGeo

Recently started using headphones with surround sound. I could hear what side Syd was attempting to pass on so I was able to leave him enough room to make a clean pass without sacrificing too much of my lap time.

Quote from: Warlock on April 02, 2018, 01:23:59 AM
LOL  ;D,  i also see it like a sort of sacrilege  ;D  (with all my respect to Max  :) )

I wasn't a big fan of the radar thing, but it was a very strong equest for KRP: in races they were using insane FOVs just to avoid too many collisions.

Quote from: uberslug on April 02, 2018, 09:33:55 AM
Recently started using headphones with surround sound. I could hear what side Syd was attempting to pass on so I was able to leave him enough room to make a clean pass without sacrificing too much of my lap time.

Did you try plain headphones ?
Do you have a soundcard (which) ?

I think PiBoSo should think about implementing OpenALSoft and allow to select a few different HRTF: this would provide best positional sound to anybody with an headphone (no matter which and no matter if with/without soundcard).

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 02, 2018, 10:20:35 AM
Did you try plain headphones ? Wasn't sure I would like headphones so I went with the Steel Series Siberia 150s with Surround Sound. I turned Surround Sound in Windows 10 Sound Settings on and they work just fine.

Do you have a soundcard (which) ? I do not have a discreet sound card.

I think PiBoSo should think about implementing OpenALSoft and allow to select a few different HRTF: this would provide best positional sound to anybody with an headphone (no matter which and no matter if with/without soundcard). Good idea.

Quote from: uberslug on April 02, 2018, 11:57:58 AM
Wasn't sure I would like headphones so I went with the Steel Series Siberia 150s with Surround Sound. I turned Surround Sound in Windows 10 Sound Settings on and they work just fine.

I thought you hadve purchased a "7.1 headset" (thing that in general is *not* recommended).
But you're right, in Win10 you now have the option to have 5.1/7.1 sound "spatialized" (i.e. sent to a plain stereo headphone).
From what I've read around it is not as good as other stuff out there, but for GPB needs it should be plenty (and, of course, it's free).

I have purchased the Sennheiser GSX 1200 (same thing as the GSX 1000) and first impression, compared to my Creative X-Fi Fatality (sort of reference for spatialization), is that it does maybe slightly worse in cod4 (but could be more of a different equalization thing), on par for GPB and better for PUBG (lately I play a lot of that, just too funny with pals).

I just hate the inelegance of how this works for GPB: true 3d audio source positions are processed by OpenAL, converted to 7.1 and sent to Win / the GSX which in turn converts this to stereo (with proper HRTF). If GPB had an HRTF implemented internally, then I could just bypass the 7.1-to-stereo conversion.

That said, I think that even an average spatialization is good enough for GPB.

you playing promod, max?

Quote from: Vini on April 02, 2018, 01:43:38 PM
you playing promod, max?

Used too, stopped a long ago when the team went down. Anyway we were no good (and me in particular).
More recently I used to play silly gungame just for fun. These days it's only PUBG.

cool. i was unfortunately never part of the competetive promod scene, missed it somehow.
to me it's still the best pc multiplayer fps, perfect mix between quake and CS.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 03, 2018, 07:33:00 PM

Quote from: Vini on April 02, 2018, 01:43:38 PM
you playing promod, max?

Used too, stopped a long ago when the team went down. Anyway we were no good (and me in particular).
More recently I used to play silly gungame just for fun. These days it's only PUBG.

You, playing PUBG? I would have never guessed. Want to loot my shotgun?

Quote from: JamoZ on April 05, 2018, 08:15:32 PM
You, playing PUBG? I would have never guessed. Want to loot my shotgun?

Depends on the skin you have on it :)

Silly game, frustratng like hell and yet plenty of fun.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 05, 2018, 11:01:18 PM

Quote from: JamoZ on April 05, 2018, 08:15:32 PM
You, playing PUBG? I would have never guessed. Want to loot my shotgun?

Depends on the skin you have on it :)

Silly game, frustratng like hell and yet plenty of fun.

Premium skin, what else  :-*

Love those matches when you get shot in the back by a random guy hiding in the blue after looting for an hour :')

Quote from: JamoZ on April 06, 2018, 11:50:42 AM
Love those matches when you get shot in the back by a random guy hiding in the blue after looting for an hour :')

My unconditional hate goes to the RNGesus systematically giving you a freakin' pistol suppressor when the guy that lands 3m from you (and 10sec later) gets everything he needs to down you in no time.

What a waste of time. But still funny with friends.