I changed the engine file a bit and with the help of Stout i`ve managed to make it sound like alot higher RPM`s :)
Link for v1.1
https://mega.co.nz/#!q4YHEAoA!f9ixeseJfzpmbO6r-XKKeB71N5aiSunX_HKG_8uEeTQ (https://mega.co.nz/#!q4YHEAoA!f9ixeseJfzpmbO6r-XKKeB71N5aiSunX_HKG_8uEeTQ)
Quick preview, please ignore the slightly distorted sound on the background, something went wrong with exporting...
http://www.youtube.com/v/watch?v=FE8PpUD1B7k
Backup your old engine.scl & sound files and simply overwrite with the new ones.
Let me know what you think, and feel free to improve it if you can ;)
nice JamoZ.....i like this sound :D
Sound updated ;)
ok ....that version before was much better :-\ is it possible for you to send me the last one cause i think i delete that v1.0 :-[
Quote from: Abigor on January 24, 2014, 09:29:18 PM
ok ....that version before was much better :-\ is it possible for you to send me the last one cause i think i delete that v1.0 :-[
I think this new one sounds more aggresive, and as we all know... more aggresive = more better :P ;D
Hi JamoZ, I just did some laps with the new sound and I like it now but I think first gear could be better ;)
Quote from: Abigor on January 24, 2014, 09:29:18 PM
ok ....that version before was much better :-\ is it possible for you to send me the last one cause i think i delete that v1.0 :-[
PM Send
Quote from: docfumi on January 24, 2014, 10:23:22 PM
Hi JamoZ, I just did some laps with the new sound and I like it now but I think first gear could be better ;)
Yeah, stout tried to get the samples to overlap better but it turned out to be really difficult. It`s better then a bike with the original Murusama sound i guess ;)
Quote from: JamoZ on January 24, 2014, 10:25:36 PM
Quote from: docfumi on January 24, 2014, 10:23:22 PM
Hi JamoZ, I just did some laps with the new sound and I like it now but I think first gear could be better ;)
Yeah, stout tried to get the samples to overlap better but it turned out to be really difficult. It`s better then a bike with the original Murusama sound i guess ;)
Like I said, I really like it and it gives the bike personality. ;D
that´s the real engine sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjwbdDvKcs
maybe you can use this to get the sound a bit more to reality.
I know it´s hard.
Quote from: C21 on January 26, 2014, 12:24:33 PM
that´s the real engine sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZjwbdDvKcs
maybe you can use this to get the sound a bit more to reality.
I know it´s hard.
Hehe, thnx for the link - But building a new sound from scratch is just not as easy as you guys think. The main problem is to get good sound samples to work with. You need
high-quality with running the engine
a sufficient time at a
constant rpm at
high, medium, low, verylow and idle rpms and then also
on-gas as well as off-gas.... and you need all this of the engine
of your specific bike (or at the very least of an engine that sounds similar and might be tuned via editing the sound samples and/or editing the engine.scl) - as you can imagine not many sound samples meet these prerequisites (in fact, your youtube link fails at almost all points except for the last ;))
if you manage to get decent sound samples, setting up the sound files to match each other smoothly is a different story - but can be learned...
so, based on the above said: be thankful for every sound you can get even if it does not sound perfect ;)
Quote from: Stout Johnson on January 26, 2014, 12:41:39 PM
Hehe, thnx for the link - But building a new sound from scratch is just not as easy as you guys think. The main problem is to get good sound samples to work with. You need high-quality with running the engine a sufficient time at a constant rpm at high, medium, low, verylow and idle rpms and then also on-gas as well as off-gas....
Hmm ... how can you get a sample of an engine running sufficient time at constant rpm off-gas ?
MaX.
Exactly, is imposible, you have to edit-trial-aww sounds awfull, edit-trial- aww worse, edit-trial- mmm maybe , edit-trial- F**K this S**T, until you have something at least similar to the real thing.
Quote from: Warlock on January 26, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Exactly, is imposible, you have to edit-trial-aww sounds awfull, edit-trial- aww worse, edit-trial- mmm maybe , edit-trial- F**K this S**T, until you have something at least similar to the real thing.
LOL, exactly!
QuoteHmm ... how can you get a sample of an engine running sufficient time at constant rpm off-gas ?
For SuperbikeX the Engine sound Samples were taken from a dyno session with each bike several Times.
And they still sounded horrible ;)
Quote from: C21 on January 26, 2014, 05:41:48 PM
QuoteHmm ... how can you get a sample of an engine running sufficient time at constant rpm off-gas ?
For SuperbikeX the Engine sound Samples were taken from a dyno session with each bike several Times.
Hmmm ... can the dyno keep the wheel (and hence the engine) spinning at constant speed ?
Anyway, some partially useful info on sound creation here:
http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21694&highlight=sound+tutorial (http://www.nogripracing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21694&highlight=sound+tutorial)
http://isiforums.net/f/attachment.php?attachmentid=139&d=1288395585 (http://isiforums.net/f/attachment.php?attachmentid=139&d=1288395585)
As soon as I'm done with everything else, I may want to have a look at this sound stuff ... the quality of the current sounds (except original ones) is below the rest.
MaX.
I disagree. The stock Murusama sound is horrible and sounds more like a coffee machine then a motorcycle engine. The 2 strokes are decent, but not great aswell. The sound engine is just not sufficient. If you take a look at AC or rFactor`s sound engine they allow alot more samples to be used for 1 car. Could be up to 30 samples while we only can work with 11...
Quote from: JamoZ on January 26, 2014, 11:08:19 PM
I disagree. The stock Murusama sound is horrible and sounds more like a coffee machine then a motorcycle engine.
I think MaX refers to the Murasama sound at least sounding consistent and the samples run smoothly into each other...
Quote from: JamoZ on January 26, 2014, 11:08:19 PM
I disagree. The stock Murusama sound is horrible and sounds more like a coffee machine then a motorcycle engine. The 2 strokes are decent, but not great aswell. The sound engine is just not sufficient. If you take a look at AC or rFactor`s sound engine they allow alot more samples to be used for 1 car. Could be up to 30 samples while we only can work with 11...
I really doubt the difference is due to 30 samples instead of 11 samples. As far as I can see, most of the games have a very very similar approach to engine sounds.
The default sounds at least do not have the following problems (almost always present in mod sounds):
- you can hear two distinct sounds when there is a transition from one sample to th eother
- sometimes, even within one sample you can hear multiple "layers"
After that it all become personal opinion: some prefer an horrible sound, just to have a different sound from the default bikes. I personally cannot stand the "two-overlapping-sound" issue.
It's terribly present in your video above (and in almost all mod sounds I've heard to date): it sounds like another bike is somewhere behind you.
Of course that's not your fault: even forgetting about the lack of documentation, creating a good sound is probably very tough. No wonder Piboso delegated this to a specialist at the time ...
MaX.
Quote from: Warlock on January 26, 2014, 02:38:58 PM
Exactly, is imposible, you have to edit-trial-aww sounds awfull, edit-trial- aww worse, edit-trial- mmm maybe , edit-trial- F**K this S**T, until you have something at least similar to the real thing.
Good to see you putting you thought process on paper, it always is the first step to recovery ;) :D
Hahaha, i'm sorry its really difficult for me to explain this kind of things in english. Also im an absolute noob in sound editing.
Anyway i mostly do all this stuff by ear and trial-error. The tools we have to work with are not enough (engine.scl)
Also sound engine works in a way you always have 2 layers of sound.
Max, try this, rename all on_throttle sound files, so you cant hear them. Go and try it ingame. Result:
if you do all the track at mid throttle you will still hear off_throttle sounds, ....and you are ON_throttle.
So the sound engine mixes on and off throttle, depending of the different pitches of both sounds, almost always sound very weird 2 layers sound, it tends to be robotic.
So if you create a 'great' on_throttle sound you think "bingo!", then you go ingame and sounds awfull because is mixed with off_t sounds, frustrating :o.
Also we render in mono and kills some details of the 'great' sample we've made, not to mention searching for good samples :P
You wouldn't believe where i got the sample im working on now for 1000cc bikes ............... a 4T Radio Control plane engine LOL ;D , with some heavy tuning in a sound editing software and some praying to the Virgin Mary it turned out quite good :P. Still plenty of work to be done, so not showing it yet.
Source for the sample:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKY3JA8Y4rA
etc, etc , etc , its really a huge effort try to do something that sounds at least similar to a real bike
great job!
QuoteHmmm ... can the dyno keep the wheel (and hence the engine) spinning at constant speed ?
Hi Max.
Yes, the dyno can. (not every dyno of course!)
That´s how a map is done on a real bike ;-)
Thrust me ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtwrJCGx9a8
Quote from: Warlock on January 27, 2014, 02:28:43 AM
Also sound engine works in a way you always have 2 layers of sound.
... ... ...
So the sound engine mixes on and off throttle, depending of the different pitches of both sounds, almost always sound very weird 2 layers sound, it tends to be robotic.
Warlock I know the sound engine always mixes two sounds (on/off throttle), Piboso explained that once (and it's even explained in one of the links I posted above: may not be exactly as GPB does it but the concept can't be far off).
Ask yourself this question: on the 990 sound, do you hear 2 layers ? The answer is a clear NO. Never, no matter the situation.
What does this teach ? That the samples of the 990 have some particular property that makes them work well with the blending (on/off) and transitioning (from one sample to the next/previous) mechanisms.
I was thinking about this this morning and I'm about to do some testing to validate my reasoning: I think two potential problems nobody has seen may be that overlapping samples (i.e. consecutive samples in the same layer + on/off samples at the same RPM) ay need to be very close in terms of pitch where they overlap and may also need to be "in phase".
I'm really not sure of the above, that's why I'll do some basic testing with pure tones.
Quote from: C21 on January 27, 2014, 10:00:21 AM
QuoteHmmm ... can the dyno keep the wheel (and hence the engine) spinning at constant speed ?
Hi Max.
Yes, the dyno can. (not every dyno of course!)
That´s how a map is done on a real bike ;-)
Thrust me ;)
I do trust you but I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "map".
MaX.
QuoteI do trust you but I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "map".
remap of the ecu.
Quote from: C21 on January 28, 2014, 12:44:53 AM
QuoteI do trust you but I'm not sure I understand what you mean with "map".
remap of the ecu.
Hmm that does not enlighten me a lot :) I'll PM you or I'll be seriously off topic here (I know, I'm a bad example).
MaX.
So, I'm finally done with the GPB guide and hence I have time for other stuff. Before diving into physics modding (a dive I may never surface from), I'm having a look at the sound stuff.
@Jamoz/Warlock: a few comments on the GSVR sound:
- There are some very long samples (13s): usually 2-4s are enough.
- There are some samples that seem to be identical (e.g. sb2_idle, sb2_offidle and sb2_onidle): this is redundant, you can just use one single file.
- You are not obliged to name the samples as the original ones: it's better to have different names. This way you can have engine1.scl referencing some samples and engine2.scl referencing some other samples. You will be able to switch between the two simply editing sfx.cfg (and pointing to engine1.scl or engine2.scl).
- I'm under the impression you think in GPB we are obliged to use 11 samples: that's not the case, you can edit the .scl file and remove samples. Likely you can also add samples to use more than 11, but this is TBC, only Piboso knows if there's an upper limit (I'm too lazy to try to figure out).
One question concerning your GSVR sound: how did you proceed to create the engine.scl ?
I've found most of the values are identical to the 990's engine.scl: given that you used different samples, this is unlikely to be correct.
From the first tests I've done, it seems that it is very important to know the RefPitch of your sample: the RefPitch multiplied by MaxRPM (e.g. 17000 for the 990) gives you the number of RPMs at which your sample will be played without any pitch change (i.e. as it is). In other words, the RefPitch of a sample is the number of RPMs at which the sample has been taken (divided by the MaXRPM). If you get this wrong, things tend to go very wrong.
How did you get the RefPitch for your samples ?
MaX.
Max, tbh i have no idea. I just do the sound stuff for fun and to have at least a different sounding bike. For the base i think i copy`d warlocks R6 engine file and with some help of stout i just upped the volume levels and pitch levels. Don`t remember doing anything to the refpitch value`s.
This info will sure be very handy for the guys who are doing alot of effort to produce some very good sounds.
I just wish one day we could have sounds close to this in gpb`s (skip to 55 seconds to hear that sweet lotus 79) ;)
http://www.youtube.com/v/C9zQ-dSlQ_g#t=49
Quote from: JamoZ on January 30, 2014, 01:14:59 AM
Max, tbh i have no idea. I just do the sound stuff for fun and to have at least a different sounding bike. For the base i think i copy`d warlocks R6 engine file and with some help of stout i just upped the volume levels and pitch levels. Don`t remember doing anything to the refpitch value`s.
Zero chances to get something half-decent proceeding this way. Well, I guess it depends what we call half-decent :)
From what I see, GPB sound engine is rather capable so it should be possible to get something nice. But don't forget we may have no access to the tools professionals use for that kind of result (recording hardware, access to real models, sound gurus etc).
MaX.
You are right Max, in all you've said.
R-6 sound was done the bad way with no idea how engine.scl worked, just doing all by ear and trial-error method.
Is different now, cos in these days i've learned how it works and i think i can do something with at least a decent .scl file.
As you mentioned the first thing you need to know is the refpitch as i just posted in the engine.scl post, because all the file depends of this data.
Thats really the problem because i dont have access to real sounds so i have to extract them from youtube videos. And obviously i have no idea what are the rpms of the sound , so some heavy trial-error again must be done.
Only idles sound can be taken properly from videos, because mostly there are no steady and long enough sounds in higher rpms than can work.
After weeks searching and searching, i decided to try other method, i asked myself where can i found a steady sound,....and well,.... RC planes does some steady sound LOL ;D. a 4T RC plane engine with some heavy tuning in a sound editor could do the job. In fact i already tuned it to a decent? ::) sound, we'll see....
AS max said, and after i learned how to use the engine.scl , i agree that GPB could have good quality sounds , obviously if we could have good samples.
And as i said all i can do is try to emulate them from other sources ,with less than basic knowledge about sound editing :P, so this will take really long time. Maybe for GPB v1.5 i could have a really good one LOL ;D
Nice Warlock !
I can probably tell you the RPM/Pitch of your samples. Send them to me and I'll have a look.
If it works I'll explain how you can do it: there's some math inside hence I forecast some heads will be spinning ( :P ), but it's not hard and you don't have to understand everything.
Your 4t plane engine was 1 cylinder I guess, right ?
MaX.
Quote
Your 4t plane engine was 1 cylinder I guess, right ?
MaX.
ACC. To the Video i Presume: Yes.
Quote from: C21 on January 30, 2014, 11:03:13 AM
Quote
Your 4t plane engine was 1 cylinder I guess, right ?
MaX.
ACC. To the Video i Presume: Yes.
Doh, silly me :)
MaX.
Well, i didnt understood these 2 las coments but nevermind.
This is the engine, yes 1 cylincer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKY3JA8Y4rA
I'll pm you a link to the sample, but the pitch and rpms are probably different from the video one, because of the editing
Thank you, if your system works, could be a great help.
[OT]
How long (in seconds) should a sample be?
Quote from: Warlock on January 30, 2014, 04:53:02 AM
Only idles sound can be taken properly from videos, because mostly there are no steady and long enough sounds in higher rpms than can work.
After weeks searching and searching, i decided to try other method, i asked myself where can i found a steady sound,....and well,.... RC planes does some steady sound LOL ;D. a 4T RC plane engine with some heavy tuning in a sound editor could do the job. In fact i already tuned it to a decent? ::) sound, we'll see....
Just a thought,,, Nuovaic (john) has some RC bikes, even 4T, maybe he can deliver some quality engine sounds for you to try?
That could be nice for sure, but before i make him work with this, i would like to see how the one i alredy have comes out, if its acceptable we can talk about this, thanks.
Quote from: C21 on January 30, 2014, 06:10:18 PM
[OT]
How long (in seconds) should a sample be?
The longer the better for editing and cut the best part to make it loop. After cutting it is enough with 4 to 8 secs or even less. I personaly dont like to recognize the loop more than twice in , for example, the long straight of monza that takes some time looping the on_high sample. Thats why i tend to do them too long. Probably with good loopable samples more than 3 secs is not necesary.