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General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Hawk on February 14, 2019, 05:10:21 am

Title: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on February 14, 2019, 05:10:21 am
Personally I think Dorna should've implemented these rules back in the year 2000 to avoid the mess and astronomical expense that MotoGP is experiencing today and to keep motorcycle racing within a reasonable budget as well as most importantly making sure that it was the riders latent skills that controlled the bike at all times:

Machines used cannot:


Just a little controversial.... What are your thoughts on this guys? ;) :)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: poumpouny on February 14, 2019, 07:44:03 am
Don't forget that the main reason constructor is into Moto GP is 1st for advertising and 2nd for testing technologies which will be applied to normal stock bike that will be sold to we, normal people so i don't think there is a point for they doing moto gp with your restriction. I think we just need to add more "Normal" but popular motorbike race, and why not vintage "non assisted" bike race where we will see the good old GP 500 for exemple .....
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Napalm Nick on February 14, 2019, 08:31:36 am
I consider MotoGP to be the bike equivalent of F1.
The aim being to encompass the latest technology and push forward with new technology. It's the experimental testbed of the biking world only restricted by some rules that keep things ' reasonable '.

As much as I want racing to be better in Motogp and F1 it will always be ruled by budgets and technological abilities which actually makes it interesting in its own right (if the viewer is engineer minded).

When I want to watch good racing on similar machinery I head for WSBK/BSB every time though. Saying that, the recent MotoGP racing has been good - a tribute to the rules balancing development/cost and viewing pleasure (close racing). Compared with the rules of F1 which made the gaps so huge the racing died in recent history.

But the rule makers have a difficult job effectively guessing what should be done and amending them endlessly as technological advances to find ways to exploit them.

I hear what you are saying with cost and rider aids. To us the cost seems high but nowadays in their world it's normal operating expense especially for R&D oriented projects. Rider aids may be an allowed rule because it's technology that can find its way to the road, especially if it makes biking safer (ah the ever quest to do things safer as common sense ebbs away).

For one of your points, Hawky, I might agree especially with the benefit of hindsight - in-race telemetry. Hmmm texts  ::) maybe just put a smartphone on the dash, Oh wait...

IMO all racing suffers when money becomes a major factor.  Which is why racing like the IOM and it's entourage of smaller Street races are the last gladiatorial bastion of rider skill versus machine and environment. The last attempt at commercialising the IOM was thrown out thank the heavens but it's just around the corner. Those back pockets are twitching.

Consider ourselves lucky to have been witness to the legendary eras of motorcycling and pity our sons and daughters.  :D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on February 14, 2019, 01:04:45 pm
I do actually agree with what both of you have said there above, and I do realise that what MotoGP is today is what it is.....

F1 Nick - I agree with what you said too, but at least F1 are yet again this year making a step backwards technologically in order to bring back a more entertaining event..... In a way, MotoGP should've already learned the lesson from F1 in letting them see what happens to the heart and soul of a sport and it's reputation when technology is given a more or less free rein to integrate new technologies and ideas to the level where the actual human competitors in the sport play a lesser and lesser role in the outcome of events and championships compared to their hey-day eras.
Personally I think F1 needs to continue stepping back each year till they are back to the era of the mid to late 60's "Jim Clark" era to bring back real racing skills and entertainment for the fans.... Many fans I hear are coming to the same conclusion too, but like MotoGP, it'll be a hard nut to crack with the elite establishments of motor sports no doubt resisting these attempts at every stage, even threatening(like Ferrari already have done) to leave the sport altogether..... Personally I'd call their bluff. Lol!  ;D

I have also heard on the grapevine that GP500 2 strokes might actually be coming back in their own category too, similar as to what poumpouny was saying, at some stage in the future. But I almost guarantee that they will put some kind of restrictions in it's creation so as to never have to fear that the category will revive itself into becoming again regarded as the pinnacle "Blue-Ribbon" event?
Will be great to see them back again..... Let's hope fans will vote with their feet and support the GP500's and buoycott the 4 stroke MotoGP category..... OH! How I would love to live to see that day!! "People-Power" LOL!! ;D ;D

I just wish that Dorna didn't feel they had to destroy the GP500 category in the first place in their determination to replace the established blue-ribbon category with 4 stroke machinery..... They declared war on the 2 stroke category the same way governments get the public to accept going to war against other countries - They first demonise what they wish to destroy so the public willingly accept the result of their actions.
What they should've done was to give the 4 strokes their own category from the start; in fact the 4 strokes did have their own category with the SB's; so we can only presume that to get the 4 strokes accepted as the actual blue-ribbon pinnacle category, they felt they had to destroy the 2 stroke era altogether? It's disgraceful when you think about all the political shenanigans that go on behind the scenes at the expense of the fans and the very heart and soul of a beautiful sport..... Just such a shame......

Totally agree Nick, indeed we should consider ourselves very lucky and privileged to have witnessed the "Legendary" eras of both motorcycling and F1..... That is those of us that are old enough to have witnessed them. LOL!  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Napalm Nick on February 14, 2019, 02:01:25 pm
If we were sat in a pub I could enjoy discussing this stuff at length hehe. Old codgers in the lounge bar getting wobbly. It's too much effort typing on a phone.

Commercialisation means decisions made by business men where results are not trophies but bonuses. If you can keep the money down you can keep the sport spirit as it will be run by enthusiasts of the actual sport.
Bernie Ecclestone - F1s saviour? I don't think so.

I agree with your sentiments but I feel young fans who never knew any different will accept it as it is, much like their grandkids will laugh at them when they hanker for the old petrol powered days and bikes that can't fly. ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on February 14, 2019, 03:51:34 pm
Quote from: Napalm Nick on February 14, 2019, 02:01:25 pm
If we were sat in a pub I could enjoy discussing this stuff at length hehe. Old codgers in the lounge bar getting wobbly. It's too much effort typing on a phone.

Commercialisation means decisions made by business men where results are not trophies but bonuses. If you can keep the money down you can keep the sport spirit as it will be run by enthusiasts of the actual sport.
Bernie Ecclestone - F1s saviour? I don't think so.

I agree with your sentiments but I feel young fans who never knew any different will accept it as it is, much like their grandkids will laugh at them when they hanker for the old petrol powered days and bikes that can't fly. ;D


Very true mate, couldn't agree more. Lol! ;) ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pm
I think they're good rules. should be implemented. prob wont though.

I've always been against electronic aid and always will be. yes it is a skill to be able to use these aids efficiently, but still i think people would be more attracted to it if the aids were taken away. its entertainment at the end of the day, and watching people open a throttle 100% using tc to save them is not entertaining for me and many others.

its sad to see the popularity of bike racing decrease in pretty much every way, the crowds are getting smaller, at least in the UK they are. I really put this down to the technologies on the bikes. you'd think if they have such amazing technologies they'd be able to race in the rain...  ::)

putting superchargers or turbos on bikes is so stupid i really hope they never allow that.

MotoGP is following the footsteps of F1, yes technological advances are a good thing, but it gets to a point where its gone TOO far, and ends up with shit racing. motogp heading that way literally following f1s footsteps. shame they cant learn from others mistakes.
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 06, 2019, 02:45:13 pm
I would like to put forward my 2 cents, and while I may not be yknow, an FIM govorning body, I'd like to think I understand why some of the decisions that are made...

I see a load of f1 and motogp comparisons, and I do agree that these are 'prototype' classes should be at the head of technological developments.

That's where the similarities end for me. F1 relies on a crap tonne of downforce, and that kills the racing, as the aake from the cars means the car behind has no air hitting the wings and no downforce, thus gaps get bigger and racing gets worse.
They've recently started reducing the downforce levels, but that makes the cars slower, and therefore they arent technically pushing the limits. Its a very fine balancing act, tech vs racing.

MotoGP finds itself in a similar area, however the bikes rely on tyres, frame and suspension as opposed to aero to corner. This is the reason why motogp bikes, (and others) can run wings without having a major effect on the racing.

As for removing the electronics that's not the way to go either, as again, motogp is the forefront of 'tomorrow's technology'.
I understand why you'd want them to do that, but that's really not the goal of MotoGP.
(as a matter of fact if I remember rightly I read tc was trialled in the late 90s on a 500 but never really made it due to the tech not being there yet, don't quote me on that as I'm not really sure however )

I do remember however a Honda higher up accidentally leaked that their bike was producing around the mid 300s in terms of bhp, and that was bike in 2010, so God knows what it is now, but removing the electronics would make them quite literally unusable, never mind difficult to ride. They would be miles slower too.

Being one of those younguns who never experienced what yester year was like, (the earliest memory I have of MotoGP was watching gibernaus cartwheeling ducati on the TV at Catalunya, I was 7-8ish at the time) I do accept it as it is, but I by no means think its boring.

I don't mean to be a little insulting, but while I love the 500 2 strokes, and the mid 90s superbike, I do think you're all looking through 'Rose tinted spectacles' so to speak.

Even when I watch some of the old 'greatest ever' classic 500cc GP races on YouTube, I can't help but feel like that the races aren't as close, or even as exciting to watch, as these races seem very close to a precession, with at most 3-4 riders battling, and the field spread out over 1-2 laps.

The 250 races were much more entertaining if you ask me.

As for 500s returning, from what I can gather the reason they went away, was  emissions. If the 'injected' 2 stroke can be perfected their return could be possible, although maybe not in 500ccs of capacity.
(the suter mmx 500 for instance is actually a 576cc machine)

As for Bike racing decline In the uk, I definitely wouldn't put it down towards the technology.
I fact I'd put it down to the 'snowflake' generation being more interested in social media and being drunk on a Friday night than tinkering in a garage ready for a race meeting.

I remember seeing an article that called for racing to be banned altogether as it takes valuable medical resources (ambulances etc) from those who actually need them.

And the UK weather doesn't usually lend itself to being outside watching bike racing. Although today's a different story as its lovely here at 3Sisters, with full grids as well 😁


(https://i.postimg.cc/66fCZn3G/IMG-20190706-155413.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G99BwBvc)




Onto topic, rules dorna should have implemented years ago.

For me,
The weight limits should not change based off cylinder numbers.
This would mean running 1000cc v5s like the old Honda would be possible, or even a 1200 twin.

Other than that, I actually can't think of any more aside from possibly making the red-bull rookies use a current moto3 spec machine, and making moto3 use something like a 640 single/twin.
(potentially supercorsas/less sticky control tyre as well as they're already faster through some turns than motogp machines)

Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 06, 2019, 10:49:49 pm
Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmits sad to see the popularity of bike racing decrease in pretty much every way, the crowds are getting smaller, at least in the UK they are. I really put this down to the technologies on the bikes. you'd think if they have such amazing technologies they'd be able to race in the rain...  ::)


The electronic tech doesn't hinder the wet races, rather the tyres. The bikes go so fast these days, that they seem to skip over the water rather than displace it, which is hugely dangerous. Combined with the minute contact patch that bikes have, and they pretty much lose all control. (Thinking back to Silverstone and Rabats crash chaos.)
Should the bike actually manage to move the water, that water has to have somewhere to go and that means there is a Crap Load of Spray, and visibility becomes almost 0, and at 200mph that also becomes incredibly dangerous. (Why Rain lights have been introduced, although they don't help see the track)


Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmputting superchargers or turbos on bikes is so stupid i really hope they never allow that.



Agreed.



Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmMotoGP is following the footsteps of F1, yes technological advances are a good thing, but it gets to a point where its gone TOO far, and ends up with shit racing. motogp heading that way literally following f1s footsteps. shame they cant learn from others mistakes.


The only thing that would harm the Racing in MotoGP is when the big teams have bikes that are infinitely better than the smaller teams, due to their massive budgets.
We had this issue back in around '08-'13 when the CRT machines were introduced.
At the minute the racing in MotoGP (Behind Marquez that is, as he's currently on a run to rival Rossi's Prime, hes somat else ATM), is better than it has been in a long while, good close multi-bike battles, from start to finish generally.

As for going too far, like I said above about the mechanical vs aero grip it will never be in a situation like F1, and the only point at which it would be is if bikes started using aero to corner, and that's impossible due to the fact they lean. When its faster for bikes to stop leaning then we'll have reason to worry about being in F1's situation.

















 
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 05:47:35 am
Marquez hand after the sachsenring...
But remember folks, modern motogp electronics make them easy to ride...

(https://i.postimg.cc/tg3BH7Mz/FB-IMG-1562737568531.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8vTTZs8)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 10, 2019, 08:05:42 am
Yeah, right. Lol..... So what's the real story behind that pic? ;D

Looks to me like he's either crashed the bike and got tarmac rash on his hands, or been racing with a previous hand injury that's been bleeding inside his glove during the race. :P  ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 10:47:04 am
Quote from: Hawk on July 10, 2019, 08:05:42 amYeah, right. Lol..... So what's the real story behind that pic? ;D

Looks to me like he's either crashed the bike and got tarmac rash on his hands, or been racing with a previous hand injury that's been bleeding inside his glove during the race. :P  ;D

Nope that was taken after the sachsenring race. Was fine before. He even said it was. I guess that's why some riders wear bandages under their gloves.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwNRYLWk/Screenshot-20190710-114536-com-facebook-katana.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nj783L27)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 10, 2019, 01:19:02 pm
Then what the hell was he doing with his hand during the race if it wasn't already injured from a previous incident? If that happens to him after racing in each GP then he'd be fucked after 3-4 races. There's got to be more to this story than you've picked up on there mate, it just doesn't make sense to injure just one hand like that from just racing. I heard that he crashed his bike in practice before the race? Got to be some thing he picked up from that I'd say? Lol. ;)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 09:31:51 pm
Sachsenring is a very demanding track, as its all braking, acceleration, and turns. Pretty much 0 point where there's no pressure on the hand.

Not to mention Its his left hand, which would take a beating through all the left handers.

I should imagine the other one would be fairly similar, though not as bad, due to the forces being on the other side etc.

And I should imagine that if he did crash (idk I didn't watch it as I'm too poor for bt sport and my 'streams' weren't online) that the crash would have something to do with it.

But it still goes to show, that even with all the electronic interventions, Grand Prix bikes are still not a walk in the park.

To be honest I should imagine they're as difficult as the old 500cc machines, just in different areas.

If I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 10, 2019, 10:30:55 pm
I just think that if riders were getting injured like that just by riding in a race then something would be done about it pretty quickly. Lol

Also, if the bikes were that hard to ride that they took the skin-off your hands during a race then isn't it very dubious and strange that only Marc is injured like that and yet no other rider has ever pointed out the same issue? It all just doesn't make any sense mate without it being caused by a previous and race aggravated injury. :o
I just suspect your presuming a little too much there and probably falling for the current trend of journalists that like to make a drama out of nothing..... I think we all know what these modern journalists are like these days. Lol! ;D

But indeed, the very fact that there would be so much forces on your hands, body and legs during a race would mean that if he was getting injured like that he wouldn't last long would he.

Hopefully it'll slow the arrogant git down! Hehe! ;D  ;D

On the other subject..... My debate about whether the modern MotoGP bikes are easier to ride than the old 500cc class is a debate purely around the difference of having rider aids that take away from a riders skill-set and allow lesser riders to compete closely with the best of the best(if they have the bike to do it of course), and I think that is an accepted fact that the 500cc class riders needed to use raw rider skills to ride fast whereas the modern MotoGP riders can rely greatly on the computer aided devices on their bikes to control traction and braking as well as suspension and engine braking..... That's something the 500cc class riders had to control through their own touch, feel and throttle-control while riding their bikes... Big difference indeed. Even Rossi said the old 500cc bikes where more enjoyable and exciting to ride than the modern MotoGP bikes....... Lets bring them back I say, if only as a separate class of world championships..... Personally I think Dorna wouldn't allow it cause a large majority of race fans would soon turn away from the modern MotoGP races in favour of watching the more exciting 500cc 2-stroke class. That is something Dorna and the big manufacturers will not allow to happen...... Too much money and politics in the sport nowadays.... You can't really call MotoGP a true sport anymore in comparison to what it used to be, in my somewhat controversial opinion of course. Lol!  ;)  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 11:01:09 pm
Pretty much right on all counts there XD

For me the 500s were much more difficult to control and required more finesse and rider skill. (not to say current riders don't have any skill mind you, they're about 50 years a lap faster than I'll ever be lol)

I do however think that the current MotoGP bikes are as difficult to ride, but in a more, physical/concentration sense.

You need to have extremely small reaction times, and and incredibly strong upper body just to put up with the forces.

For me some people assume the electronics remove all the forces from riding, and it seems they don't even think about the fact the bikes actually have more forces exerted on the rider, as they can be more extreme in the handling/power fronts, and get away from it.

Back in 'ye olden days' (500s) from what I can gather, it was the tyres and the frame/geometry that limited a bikes pace, now a days it seems to be whether the rider can hold on long enough.

As for those injuries, I've seen several pics of blistered hands from GP riders, of the recent era.
Cal, (although it was probably gravel rash as hes a little bit of a crasher lol), marc (OBVS), I think I saw folger and olivera as well, and maybe  Quatararo, can't quite remember.

I do think it is a more common issue than iss made out, and you consistently see GP riders with boxing style bandages on, either preemptive or protective.

Heres petrucci with the bandages on, and my gods they're thick :o

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3T14Kmx/petrux.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zXxYqv68/petrux2.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Marquez in 2015, Phillip Island I believe the pic is from:

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1dCjn0w/Marc-Marquez-hands-Phillip-Island-2015-L.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 11, 2019, 11:34:53 am
I'll be interested to look into this further, but I still think in most cases it is riders protecting older injuries from being aggravated during the race.

But yeah, I agree that no doubt the modern MotoGP bikes probably have greater man-handling needs, simply cause they are faster and more powerful machines, and no doubt the current crop of riders could get used to riding without computer assisted aids, but at the same time the best skilled riders would stand out head and shoulders above the rest, whereas currently it's the rider aids that allow the lesser skilled riders to compete closely with those cream of the crop skilled riders.... It's just all a big fake sport now in comparison to what it was..... They really need to get back to basics in my opinion if the sport is going to survive..... Although the generation of fans that attend MotoGP races now probably haven't a clue what it used to be like in the 500cc era anymore, so they probably think all is okay as it is. Lol!  ;D

But yeah, I'll look into this supposed need to bandage hands and for what real reasons those that do it, do it.  ;)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 11, 2019, 11:56:04 am
I feel like motogp is at its best in a while.. Grids are getting larger, more teams are entering, racing is close, (for the most part).

Regardless of bikes I think it's in a good place atm. Certainly better than the 800cc era where where was about 16-18 riders on the grid and the racing was extremely spread out.

I should imagine the old 500s were better to see in person, for the atmosphere and smells etc, but the modern machines are better in TV is how I'd see it.
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 11, 2019, 11:57:59 am
As for the hand bandages, it tends to be rookies, who don't have the tougher skin on the hands yet, and riders who slide more.
(Marquez, epargaros etc)

On the topic of Marquez... He's something else this year. If he was in GP bikes I'd report him to piboso for hacking lol
I do think the fact physics don't seem to apply to him makes motogp a bit more of a spectacle now, but the racing is good enough behind that if he weren't there I dung think itd matter to much


Yamaha riders, rossi, (lorenzo as he's still smooth) tend to have baby hands though 😂 100% moisturise
 And the triumph moto2 machines are now faster than the 500s on lap times, going over 190mph..

And have you checked out the 'world gp legends' races. Granted lap records may not be broken, but the old 500s get thrashed still, and it is still a race. Even some of the old guys take part, (lawson schwantz, gardener, sarron etc)

Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: HornetMaX on July 12, 2019, 04:47:10 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 09:31:51 pmIf I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂

350 hp ?! You mean 250 right ?
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 05:08:15 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 12, 2019, 04:47:10 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 09:31:51 pmIf I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂

350 hp ?! You mean 250 right ?

NOPE 350.
I think it was Honda who let slip that the GP machines were producing in excess of 300bhp.
They said it in an interview and when the reporter jumped on it they smiled sheepishly and said no comment.

Stoner also said he'd consider a GP comeback if the bikes went BACK to about 300bhp with little/less/no electronic aids

The 2003 Honda rossi was on had around 200 horsepower I think, and they've gained an extra 10cc, (not much I know but still) and technology has improved no end, so in a world where ducatis Wsbk produces 220+bhp, I highly suspect it is around the 300bhp mark, as to me there is no way a Grand Prix machine capable of 220mph only has around 25 more bhp than a wsbk

Edit: the CRT machines that were introduced to boost grid numbers had in excess of 250bhp, and they were WAY down on power compared to the bigger 'factory' machines
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 05:14:32 pm
I'm not gonna lie, 350 is where I expect it to be nowadays, 250+ is the value that is 'given' by the teams, and 300 was the 'leaked' power value by either honda/ducati can't remember which.

350 may be way off, either High or low, but I'd suspect its deffo closer to 300-350 than 250, and if its not, I'll eat my shorts

(i won't actually eat them but I'd be extremely surprised)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 05:26:29 pm
(https://i.postimg.cc/pL8ccjjP/Screenshot-20190712-182141-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NKsx55bn)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wfLdZ5C/Screenshot-20190712-182315-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSM9hnNd)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1z49t0h/Screenshot-20190712-182306-com-android-chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bD9xyPkP)

There's some data for you, showing that petrux said his bike was at 280 bhp back in 2016/2017.
According to the acceleration graphs that was also lowballing a bit but seems accurate for the most part

I did embellish the power figure a little bit it seems,(I swear dramatic effect had nothing to do with it ;) ) but still, way over 250 :o
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 12, 2019, 06:00:22 pm
Too much power by far..... I mean what's the point if you can't use it? As they say, if it wasn't for the electronics controlling the application of that power then they couldn't use it, and if they cannot control the power without the electronics applying that power then it's not a true representation of a riders skill and control of the bike and therefore surely cannot be classified as a true sport anymore..... I rest my case. :P ;D
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 06:10:00 pm
Stoner did. He consistently ran without tc.

And I think you're missing the point of MotoGP these days.

Gone are the days where motogp was about riders patience and skill with the throttle, and here are the days we're technology rules the roost, and engineers run the bikes.

Getting the most out of technology is the second p point of MotoGP, the first is simple:

Be the fastest at all costs.

Hence, why tech is involved and necessary.

If there is going to be a class for no aids/reduced electronics it has to be separated from the MotoGP class imo.

BSB spec/style bikes on a global scale.

And saying the riders of today lack skill because of the electronics is perhaps not true as well. I mean, look at people like, Scott redding, Hector barbera, xavi fores etc, all former world championship riders, (and average ones at that if there's such a thing as an average wc rider) all relied on electronics for most of their racing careers, and all are ripping the BSB championship apart, consistently on the podium, and in Scott's case, at the top of the championship.
And it's not like the BSB championship is a walk in the park either, as that's a really tough championship to be in
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 06:36:20 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 06:10:00 pmIf there is going to be a class for no aids/reduced electronics it has to be separated from the MotoGP class imo.



I believe this is what MotoE should have been. Moto Classic or something similar
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: HornetMaX on July 12, 2019, 08:28:38 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 05:26:29 pmThere's some data for you, showing that petrux said his bike was at 280 bhp back in 2016/2017.
According to the acceleration graphs that was also lowballing a bit but seems accurate for the most part

I did embellish the power figure a little bit it seems,(I swear dramatic effect had nothing to do with it ;) ) but still, way over 250 :o
And way under 350, for sure. With constant rules, you don't gain 20hp in 1 year.
I wouldn't even know if I'd bet on 300 at the moment. So 350 ... well ... I'd say no.
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 08:49:17 pm
I mean stoner said that his bike was producing over 300 brake, it really depends on who you ask.

I just made a rough guess, although by 2025 it wouldn't surprise me if they're close to 350 bhp, assuming there aren't any rule changes.

Either way its enough to hurl you forward at a ridiculous rate of knots :o
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Hawk on July 13, 2019, 10:26:20 am
Rossi and Stoner in my mind are the two last superbly talented riders, the rest still have to prove themselves to be as skilled as they appear to be today.

As for Stoner always riding without TC or any other electronic aids? Where did you get that info from? ;D

Stoner is the only rider that you can see should've and probably would've rather have been born 10-20 years earlier for the sport, and I'm sure he would've carried on riding into his 30's.

I didn't say that the riders lack the skill, just that they can't demonstrate their real skills cause of the modern bikes they ride today, so one cannot even begin to judge exactly how true their real racing and bike handling skills really are.... That's all I'm saying.

What you said about, and I quote:

"Gone are the days where motogp was about riders patience and skill with the throttle, and here are the days we're technology rules the roost, and engineers run the bikes.

Getting the most out of technology is the second p point of MotoGP, the first is simple:

Be the fastest at all costs.

Hence, why tech is involved and necessary
."

This statement describes perfectly the destructive attitude of so many people today who are willing to ruin a true sport at any costs to win. That's not sportsmanship and certainly not a sporting attitude..... and above all it just leads to what amounts to cheating within a sport and fake results...... If that's what people truly desire these days then there is something mentally wrong with them. Lol! ???
It's the same cheating syndrome when people hack games to make sure they win at all costs and then brag about being the best, when in actual fact they are nothing but cheats and losers.

We should take the sport back to it's basics of the true marriage of man and machine with no electronic aids at all.... The sport would be so much more exciting to watch knowing that what your seeing is true rider skills on show well in tune with his racing bike. ;D  8)
Title: Re: Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on July 13, 2019, 12:49:08 pm
https://motomatters.com/news/2010/10/28/settling_an_argument_casey_stoner_talks_.html

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/167194/1/stoner-i-went-back-to-two-year-old-electronics

Correction on my part: He ran with as little as possible, as the teams wouldn't let him get rid of them XD

He also says if there was no electronics Rossi would be winning again, so hes clearly lost it bless him.

As for what I said, I still stand by it. That's what the sport is today, and not necessarily my opinion BTW. Whether you agree with it or not, is a different story.


My opinion:

Using electronics, and the ability to successfully interpret data and make physical changes based off seemingly meaningless squiggles, has always interested me, and will continue to do so, which is why I am a fan of SOME electronics.

At the minute, I feel MotoGP is at a peak in terms of race quality, close racing, lap records going out the window most weekends, top speeds for each track being broken pretty much every year, lean angle records being smashed over and over again (Marquez hit 65 degrees at the Sachsenring, and it wasn't a save).

I do however think electronics are part of that, as due to the way they work, and the fact they're a control electronics package, (Magneti Marelli), everyone is fast at the same places, and all the lap times are close, which again is a good thing as a spectator, and spectacular to watch.

I also think that the electronics, while necessary to go fast, have gone a little too far with their interference. That's not to say we should get rid of it all together, (Even Rainey Ran with electronically adjustable fuel mapping to the end of his career, and I think honda experimented with TC in the late 90's but the processing power wasn't there yet or something, dont quote me on the last one though) so its not like they're a new invention, or even a 4 stroke motogp era invention, as your beloved 2strokers had them. (Schwantz ran a quickshifter for 94-95 as well  I believe, just a modified sidestand switch for ignition lol)

I think the saying 2 steps back to make one step forward is not applicable here. I feel that it should be more a step to the side. Keeping whats already there, as it is clearly working, with the records I mentioned above, and the record crowds as well, but the step to the side being made, so that development is focused somewhere else. A solution I've thought of would be to take these MM Electronics, and go a step further with how controlled they are, and make the rider aids, such as the TC, AW, etc controlled also. IE Everyone has to use the same values, or maybe give them 3 options that are the same for all the riders.These values again, may be less than whats already on at the minute.

That would be up to the riders meetings, Dorna and Magneti Marelli.

EG: Traction control settings could be set to have 3 (or 4 if you count off as one) settings.

0:  0% interference
1: 10% interference
2: 25% interference
3: 35% interference

Could make the development focus somewhere else rather than getting the most of the electronics, (Look at Yamahas/Rossis issues), while still keeping the bikes quick and close, as well as making the rider have more of an input hopefully.

Quote from: Hawk on July 13, 2019, 10:26:20 amThis statement describes perfectly the destructive attitude of so many people today who are willing to ruin a true sport at any costs to win. That's not sportsmanship and certainly not a sporting attitude..... and above all it just leads to what amounts to cheating within a sport and fake results...... If that's what people truly desire these days then there is something mentally wrong with them. Lol! ???
It's the same cheating syndrome when people hack games to make sure they win at all costs and then brag about being the best, when in actual fact they are nothing but cheats and losers.



I  disagree that its ruining the 'sport', its just changing it, and at the minute, its much better than it used to be.
I also disagree that someone wanting desperately to win have something mentally wrong with them, as after all, that's why people race is it not? To win? If you don't want to win, then you no longer want to race. Its just how far you're willing to go to win that determines whether you display sportsmanship or not.

As for sportsmanship, that is dead for the most part. And for me it died with Lance Armstrong. (Yes IK wrong type of bike, and everyone was supposedly doing it but the principles apply.)
The main thing that determines how far someone will go to win, whether its Performance Enhancing Drugs, which affects all sports,
(Hell Professional Counter Strike Video Gamers were on Aderall FGS, (Interestingly alcohol is considered a Performance Enhancing Drug in shooting as it slows the heart and regulates the breathing meaning a more accurate shot. Don't ask why I know that as I don't know myself lol)) or 'interpreting the rules differently' to gain an advantage, where that classes as cheating is debatable.

For me cheating is where you feel the need to hide what you're doing to gain an advantage from the organisers/scrutineers, then its cheating. Like in NASCAR where in ye olden days teams used to drop cig butts into the cylinder, to reduce the capacity for Scrutineering, yet when the engine started it burned the cig away and had a bigger engine, or when toyota used a moving restrictor in their rally car. That's cheating.
So was my Dad who ran a re-bored 640cc honda CBR '600'f, which produced way more power than it should. (In his defence though he did buy it like that, and only found out when he rebuilt the engine after his first season on it LOL, he said it was quickest bike there. I was like NO shit sherlock)

Hacking in a competitive game for me is a little pointless, and doesn't get you anywhere, (I can speak from experience as 15 year old me has a VAC Ban LOL) although I do believe it has its place in gaming.
Hackvhack games are quite fun in a weird way,  and things like the FOV changers in the MOTOGP and Ride Games are also hacks.

Bragging about being the best when you hack however is wrong and I despise that.








Quote from: Hawk on July 13, 2019, 10:26:20 amWe should take the sport back to it's basics of the true marriage of man and machine with no electronic aids at all.... The sport would be so much more exciting to watch knowing that what your seeing is true rider skills on show well in tune with his racing bike. ;D  8)


Depends what you class as exciting. I have watched many 500cc races on youtube, and many races without electronics, and I actually was bored, as yes, the racers were on a knife edge, but they were also around 5 seconds apart. These were also races that were deemed 'classics' by MotoGP, and were deemed historical by everyone in the know.

As for taking the sport back, that would compound the problem. It needs to be constanly moving forward, or as i said above, at least sideways. If you want a race class like that then it has to NOT be MotoGP.
Grand Prix racing has always been the 'pinnacle of motorcycling technology', and it still is. Its just how that tech is used in a bike that's changed, and thus, I actually believe that when you say 'back to basics of man and machine' that you're wrong, as that's never been Grand Prix racing despite what you'd think. Its just how the tech is used, and how people go quicker. It used to be the rider went quicker, hence where the 'fusion of man and machine'  thingy came from, but its always been about the tech. ALWAYS. Its just playing a bigger role now.


That brings me onto my point, whats exciting, is purely personal opinion. For me, MotoGP is way more exciting now than it used to be, as the racing is really close for the most part. Whether its artificial, or why its close is irrelevant. Its good to watch, as these days they're constantly overtaking, every lap, every turn pretty much, and for me that's more exciting than knowing someone 'could' have a moment if they're a little impatient.

Which one is better to ride is a different topic entirely.