As we all know some tracks are less perfect then others, but even on Victoria bumps can be a problem. Two examples are the very slow Turn 10 after Lukey Heights and the bump close to the curb in The Southern Loop (Turn 2). On a 125 it is very common to lose the front in these two corners.
My question is, how do you guys setup the suspension and steering to minimize the falling and are there any drawbacks with the settings. Should the rake angle be set to the highest? Swing arm length "2" or less? Bump and rebound? Does the same principles apply to 125, 500 and 990?
I've been playing around with the settings but honestly I don't notice much difference when it comes to the bumps, only thing I notice is changes in the bikes turning radius. So basically I don't have a clue. Any tips are much appreciated.
Cheers.
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Quote from: davidboda46 on February 04, 2014, 08:18:39 AM
As we all know some tracks are less perfect then others, but even on Victoria bumps can be a problem. Two examples are the very slow Turn 10 after Lukey Heights and the bump close to the curb in The Southern Loop (Turn 2). On a 125 it is very common to lose the front in these two corners.
My question is, how do you guys setup the suspension and steering to minimize the falling and are there any drawbacks with the settings. Should the rake angle be set to the highest? Swing arm length "2" or less? Bump and rebound? Does the same principles apply to 125, 500 and 990?
I've been playing around with the settings but honestly I don't notice much difference when it comes to the bumps, only thing I notice is changes in the bikes turning radius. So basically I don't have a clue. Any tips are much appreciated.
Cheers.
/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
Personally I think on a track like Victoria, which is a very good surface, it's more down to the way the physics have been configured in the physics files rather than any particular setup arrangement?
I would really like the physics modders to take a good look at the default bikes and see if they can see any problems with the way the physics files are configured. I say this because, particularly on the R6 bike that has had it's physics files pretty much sorted properly, the problems of these corners are pretty much solved; unless of course your riding on a track whose surface is unbelievably bumpy on particular corners.
Update: PS: I think we all have the same problem at that corner, especially with the 125 bike. Try taking a different entry angle into that corner so as to be able to keep the bike more upright; this is what I do, and it works although, I agree, it's a workaround and not a proper solution to the problem. :)
I agree with Hawk, where the R6 is like you're on rails. Some of the other bikes can get out of shape when in tight turns. For me using full manual lean it's less about bike setup and more about my riders position when taking some corners. If I can feel the front start wobbling I center my rider back up on the bike instead of hanging from it and usually I can make the turn in good shape.
There is still something to sort out in terms of physics and in beta4 it is more visible on the 125 than on the 990.
It could be related to the problem we have on turns with banking or it could be something else, hard to say.
I'm not sure any suspension setting will help a lot.
One thing I do think is weird is how fast the virtual rider is in applying large handlebar corrections: it really looks too fast compared to reality.
MaX.
P.S. and off-topic:
A word about the R6: I'm really skeptical when I hear something like "the R6 physics has been sorted out properly".
Will all due respect to the work done by neoraptor (which is great), the current R6 physics doesn't feel right. I've heard some strong opinions against it and myself I'm not 100% convinced.
It is extremely easy to ride. which may be appealing and very fun for online races, but ... as Klax75 said, "it's like you are on rail". The problem is, on a real bike, you're not on rails.
Would be nice to hear from Desteban (as he owns and rides an R6 on track and as he's pretty proficient in GPB too).
I hadn't had the time yet to go through what has been done exactly on the R6 physics, but it will surely be the 1st thing I'll do as soon as I start looking into physics.
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 04, 2014, 10:53:22 AM
There is still something to sort out in terms of physics and in beta4 it is more visible on the 125 than on the 990.
It could be related to the problem we have on turns with banking or it could be something else, hard to say.
I'm not sure any suspension setting will help a lot.
One thing I do think is weird is how fast the virtual rider is in applying large handlebar corrections: it really looks too fast compared to reality.
MaX.
P.S. and off-topic:
A word about the R6: I'm really skeptical when I hear something like "the R6 physics has been sorted out properly".
Will all due respect to the work done by neoraptor (which is great), the current R6 physics doesn't feel right. I've heard some strong opinions against it and myself I'm not 100% convinced.
It is extremely easy to ride. which may be appealing and very fun for online races, but ... as Klax75 said, "it's like you are on rail". The problem is, on a real bike, you're not on rails.
Would be nice to hear from Desteban (as he owns and rides an R6 on track and as he's pretty proficient in GPB too).
I hadn't had the time yet to go through what has been done exactly on the R6 physics, but it will surely be the 1st thing I'll do as soon as I start looking into physics.
+1 ......R6 is extremely easy to ride...its like its not GP bikes game more like Ps3 game :-\
[OT]
QuoteA word about the R6: I'm really skeptical when I hear something like "the R6 physics has been sorted out properly".
Will all due respect to the work done by neoraptor (which is great), the current R6 physics doesn't feel right. I've heard some strong opinions against it and myself I'm not 100% convinced.
It is extremely easy to ride. which may be appealing and very fun for online races, but ... as Klax75 said, "it's like you are on rail". The problem is, on a real bike, you're not on rails.
+1
I like the R6 personally (raced the pre-predecessor many years ago) but i did not get warm with it.....something feeling not right...."like on rails" is a good term for that.
I have some strange things with the bike.
If i use Qualifier Tyres the bike slides down without warning (e.g. on the 1st corner after Start/Finish line on Victoria). I have never seen that on other bikes.
In my opinion and that is what i can hear....the bike touches with the fairing or something else the surface....so either the bike is too low or the tyres are giving to much grip (or the collision sphere is done incorrectly). Altering the suspension did not solve the problem.
Using hard tyres solves the issue but you loosing some degrees of lean.
Furthermore i can crash with this one down Lucky Heights as well as with the 125GP. But the bike is using the GP500 physics basically and i´ve never get down that much with the GP500 or GP1000 physics on that particular corner.
The bike wheels too much in 1st and 2nd gear. A 600cc never wheels (only slightly lift the front) without using the clutch, especially not when using the long 1st gear.Normally the 2006-2013 R6 are not that stable. Like a GP250 with a bit more weight ;)
@Neo: i did not discuss that with you because i´m too busy with the development of the CBR right now...and i was not sure if its me or the bike.
I don´t want to blame the bike (it is really good but not perfect).
Neo put a lot of effort in the development of the bike and of the wiki (and still is!!).
In my opinion that will not be the final stage of the bike.
Please keep in mind that the bike is still running 500cc Slicks and not 600cc Supersport tyres. I know that neo tried some things on the tyre development with good results.
The main disadvantage is: The 600cc is still running the 500cc geometry.
If Neo get this issue sorted i think the bike will behave more like an R6.
And that´s the main problem: We can´t get the geometry for each bike specificly done right now.
To be honest: 600cc are extremly easy to ride up to a specific point ;)
QuoteUpdate: PS: I think we all have the same problem at that corner, especially with the 125 bike. Try taking a different entry angle into that corner so as to be able to keep the bike more upright; this is what I do, and it works although, I agree, it's a workaround and not a proper solution to the problem.
That´s what i do also.
I was really upset and frustrated in the beginning of my GPB involvement (Max can proove that ;) ) because i crashed in every single lap on that corner!!
Quote from: C21 on February 04, 2014, 12:04:01 PM
The main disadvantage is: The 600cc is still running the 500cc geometry.
That was my first remark to Neo: would have been way better to start from the 990 physics, but it was too late, he already started with the 500.
Quote from: C21 on February 04, 2014, 12:04:01 PM
And that´s the main problem: We can´t get the geometry for each bike specificly done right now.
Uh, why ?
There are some things that are not yet 100% clear, but that can be sorted out.
MaX.
I dunno, I've never been able to wheelie the R6.. Maybe a inch or two off the ground.. I don't have any driving assists on. The 500cc, the 1000cc, I can flip those bikes over with to much throttle. Yet the R6 I can't do a wheelie even if I wanted to.. :/
Quote from: Klax75 on February 04, 2014, 01:14:04 PM
I dunno, I've never been able to wheelie the R6.. Maybe a inch or two off the ground.. I don't have any driving assists on. The 500cc, the 1000cc, I can flip those bikes over with to much throttle. Yet the R6 I can't do a wheelie even if I wanted to.. :/
You have to use the clutch at the right moment/speed to do wheelies :P
Quote from: Arvoss on February 04, 2014, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: Klax75 on February 04, 2014, 01:14:04 PM
I dunno, I've never been able to wheelie the R6.. Maybe a inch or two off the ground.. I don't have any driving assists on. The 500cc, the 1000cc, I can flip those bikes over with to much throttle. Yet the R6 I can't do a wheelie even if I wanted to.. :/
You have to use the clutch at the right moment/speed to do wheelies :P
We are talking wheelie without clutch (or brakes) help, of course. With the clutch you can wheelie a 50cc.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 04, 2014, 02:24:35 PM
We are talking wheelie without clutch (or brakes) help, of course. With the clutch you can wheelie a 50cc.
MaX.
must disagree, i can't with mine even if it reaches 60/65 km/h ( due to weight distribution and it's 60 kg of weight :D )
Quote from: Alby46 on February 04, 2014, 02:30:29 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 04, 2014, 02:24:35 PM
We are talking wheelie without clutch (or brakes) help, of course. With the clutch you can wheelie a 50cc.
MaX.
must disagree, i can't with mine even if it reaches 60/65 km/h ( due to weight distribution and it's 60 kg of weight :D )
Yeah, you may need a bit of ass-assist :), but you get the message. We were talking about clutch-less wheelies.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 04, 2014, 02:37:24 PM
Yeah, you may need a bit of ass-assist :), but you get the message. We were talking about clutch-less wheelies.
MaX.
yeah just jokin' :)
Sorry for the confusion.
Just drove the R6 again and i can´t get the front up only by throttle.
Maybe i drove an earlier version..or just mistaken it with another bike..don´t know.
Corrected that in my reply.
QuoteQuote from: C21 on Today at 01:04:01 PM
And that´s the main problem: We can´t get the geometry for each bike specificly done right now.
Uh, why ?
There are some things that are not yet 100% clear, but that can be sorted out.
MaX.
Hopefully.
Yes, as you said there are some things not 100% clear. I´m still playing with your Geogebra model....
Quote from: C21 on February 04, 2014, 03:58:28 PM
Sorry for the confusion.
Just drove the R6 again and i can´t get the front up only by throttle.
Maybe i drove an earlier version..or just mistaken it with another bike..don´t know.
The R6 was made a bit slower in one of the last updates so that could explain it.
Quote from: C21 on February 04, 2014, 03:58:28 PM
Yes, as you said there are some things not 100% clear. I´m still playing with your Geogebra model....
Nice to hear ! And if you find wrong stuff, do not hesitate to bash me in public :)
If everything goes as planned, in a week or two I'll start having a serious look to the physics stuff.
MaX.
I also have a big coming week (and then a skiing holiday week ;D).
After that I will continue to work on GPB (finish R6 geometry as it is too stable for now, and continue the geometry documentation and some other small projects that have been "paused").
I am aware of most of the problems of the R6 and I plan to finish it properly, don't worry ;)
Just a note on the "I can't wheelie the R6" thing - I ride an R6, and honestly you have to be really gunning it to get the front up without some clutch. Mine's an '05 though, so I know it has ~10HP less and (I think) longer wheelbase than the '06-'13?
#EDIT: I have experienced the weird sudden letting go on qualify tires though - I thought it must just be dragging hard parts though... still it makes Phillip Island turns 1 and 2 pretty interesting :P