PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => Suggestions and wishlist => Topic started by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 03:24:35 pm

Title: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 03:24:35 pm
Very simple suggestion: Make the 1p view match the actual position of the rider's head so that the cam moves closer to the ground when cornering.
Currently this is only possible when using head tracking which is a shame for everbody not owning such equipment.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 08:07:51 pm
Hmmm? GPB has two 1st person cams. While the second one is indeed stationary, the first one moves with the rider's movement. This is the cam I use all the time.

By the way, I think you even saw one of my videos featuring that and commented on it. Or did you think I used head tracking there?
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 08:32:47 pm
I know that it follows the rider to some degree but it certainly doesn't resemble the true head position. You can easily check that in replays with the "Free" cam. It has to go quite a bit closer to the ground (like here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRQWID9vZ8k)).
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 08:50:16 pm
While I agree that there might be less movement than needed in the 1st camera mode, don't you feel the head movement in the video you linked is heavily exaggerated (as if the head actually detaches from the body at times)?
Also, check this thread by the author of the video: https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6630.msg97346
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 09:02:09 pm
It's not exaggerated IMO. Compare it to real helmet cam footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpMfM2wMZI). Maybe the weird FoV/crop makes it look a bit weird in Mystic's vid.
Anyway, I specifically wanted to keep head tracking and VR out of this discussion because then it gets a whole lot more complicated.
The 1p view should simply match the real head position of the rider in-game. Everything else doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 09:12:57 pm
Well, that still looks a lot different, even though there is indeed a ton of head movement. And I don't think the FoV is the problem there.
As for making the view move more... Only if that will be made into a yet another camera. Because if it's going to move like in that RL video, I'm going to fall pretty much in every corner. I have no intention to give up direct steering, but I do need to see both the horizon and the bike for reference.

Edit: are you sure you will be ok even with the default steering like that? You won't be able to tell how exactly is the head placed and oriented relative to the bike.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 09:27:26 pm
It looks different because real riders look much further ahead into the turn not because of the head/view position.
You can control this with the "lean heading" setting in GP Bikes. I saw that you use a very low setting. With higher (more realistic) lean heading settings, 1p view (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmTtyC3vh9k) will look very close to real onboard, except for the head being way too high.
Anway, we have two 1p views, one is supposed to stay with the bike and the other is supposed to represent the rider's view, which it currently doesn't.
If you keep your current lean heading setting, you will still be able to see the bike and horizon, the view will just be closer to the ground in corners.

Edit: And btw, once I started using higher lean heading settings, 1p view became much more playable for me and I got a lot faster. It's very important to look far enough ahead in order to ride good lines through corners. Just like in real life.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 09:41:42 pm
I use that low a setting for a reason :) After a lot of testing I decided on these values for the camera as the ones helping me to boost my "vestibulary sense" the most while still not getting in the way too much.
Yes we have two FPV cameras. I personally don't find the fixed to the bike one of any use. That leaves me with the camera you are proposing to change. That change most likely will render me unable to ride in GPB. I'm absolutely against that, however "realistic" you'd call that. I personally believe that if you want to start with realistic, you need to switch to direct steering first.
Still, if Piboso will add a third FPV camera, I'm ok with that. But I'm against any changes to this one. I didn't invest years into taming direct steering to be simply robbed of it just when I've started getting better.

"Closer to the ground in corners" means "less bike visible closer to the center of the screen". I already tried that and I didn't like it.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 09:45:05 pm
Quote from: Vini on April 21, 2019, 09:27:26 pmEdit: And btw, once I started using higher lean heading settings, 1p view became much more playable for me and I got a lot faster. It's very important to look far enough ahead in order to ride good lines through corners. Just like in real life.
It is very important, sure. But try looking that far while direct steering and tell me if that doesn't make it much more difficult not to drop the bike during cornering.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 10:02:09 pm
I really don't see your problem.
Nothing will change for you except the view getting a bit lower. You will still see the complete cockpit of the bike so please don't act like it will suddnely make the game unplayable.
I am not saying you should change your view settings, everybody can play the game however you like. And I understand that higher lean heading settings may make direct-steer more difficult.
But if the view moves more up and down, you'll be able to gauge lean angle even better. Also, I highly recommend using the helmet overlay of the MaxHUD plugin. The plugin allows you to rotate the overlay accoring to bike lean angle, so you don't even have to see the bike to get a feel for the lean.

My point is that no matter how you configure the settings at the moment, it will never look real because the 1p view position is simply wrong. This is not a subjective matter that warrants a disussion: 1p view has to match the position of the eyes, otherwise it's not 1p.
GPB does exactly that when you control the view manually with headtracking. Strange......

Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 10:48:54 pm
Again, I came to these particular settings after a lot of trial and error. It may seem like there is not much difference at all, but for me personally going from higher to lower lean heading made a world of difference (though no lean heading is also not helpful).

I'm not "acting". I spent a whole lot of time adjusting the view to my needs, not to mention years of learning to direct steer. This is quite a big problem for me if you want to suddenly change things in a way that will work for me in a way nobody knows in advance. Because I tried different settings before that I was sure would work the best (like your suggested setting lean heading to the max), but it all failed.
You see, when your head is turned in RL, the brain "post-processes" the "picture" so that it would appear normal to you. When you are presented with the same picture on screen, it's not the same, because the brain doesn't really care that much for flat images.

I tried MaxHUD several times, but it never worked well for me. Not only it lead to quite a performance hit, I'm sure there were worse effects (either stuttering or more input lag). And while a tilting helmet overlay sounds like a good idea, I don't think my peripheral vision would get the angle anyway (might give it a try though).

"My point is that no matter how you configure the settings at the moment, it will never look real because the 1p view position is simply wrong."
Well, it will only look real with VR anyway... Then again, the VR users are complaining at the moment.
Also, consider getting yourself some cheap headtracking equipment. You'll be able to look and move your head however you want. I do have it, just can't currently use it for now. Also, great for flight sims.

In a nutshell: you are suggesting me to try more realistic view settings (already tried, like my settings better), I'm suggesting you to try a more realistic steering (just so that you could see for yourself a little change to the view could make a lot of difference). So I guess we are at an impasse here...
Then again, why are you so against a third FPV camera anyway? It's not like GP Bikes has a lot of first person cameras to begin with.

By the way, as an experiment, you could give me the view settings you think I should use and I could record my results with that, just out of curiosity. Who knows, maybe that will indeed work now.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on April 21, 2019, 11:20:49 pm
Quote from: Vini on April 21, 2019, 09:02:09 pmIt's not exaggerated IMO. Compare it to real helmet cam footage (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpMfM2wMZI). Maybe the weird FoV/crop makes it look a bit weird in Mystic's vid.
Anyway, I specifically wanted to keep head tracking and VR out of this discussion because then it gets a whole lot more complicated.
The 1p view should simply match the real head position of the rider in-game. Everything else doesn't make sense.

Should point out that I used the 'stationary' 1p cam, and a TrackIR in this vid, so the movement is not affected by me manually tucking in, and is entirely my own (I should also point out its extremely similar to my movements that I make now in VR, and indeed made the transition easier, so is perhaps not the best example for a NO VR! argument lol)

As for the FOV, I run the lowest possible in GPB, as that's the correct calculated one for my monitor size/distance ratio (Yes there is a calculation for FOV, and yes there is a 'correct' one, its not just personal preference.


As for the in game character vs camera positioning, the one we have now is a good balance I feel between moving and not being over exaggerated like the real movement has the potential to be, although a 3rd 1p camera option with this as a setting would be a nice compromise. Or at least some sliders.

Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 11:33:05 pm
Flat single screen first person views in sims are a highly debatable topic. There is a lot of online calculators for the "correct FoV". I wanted the geometry projected on screen to correspond to what I'd actually see if it was not a monitor, but a "window into the virtual world", so I did that calculation a long time ago by myself and used the result for a while. Tried getting used to it. Tried hard. But there is no such thing as a "correct FoV formula for a flat screen". What actually works is asking your brain whether the picture you see looks "just right" or not. Keep adjusting the FoV until you get into that spot between "too zoomed in" and "too zoomed out".

The "proper" formula would suggest me a field of view angle less than 40° for my setup. With the correction for intraocular distance (not sure if any of those "calculators" do this) I'd have it slightly above 40, I think... But with angles like that I can't judge the distance to objects properly. When I dial it up closer to 50° (I think 48° does the trick), it works fine. Even though I couldn't come up with any other factors (apart from people generally having two eyes) that could influence the result so much.

That's for cars. For bikes, for whatever reason, I have to go much higher -- to about 70°.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 11:38:11 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on April 21, 2019, 11:20:49 pmAs for the FOV, I run the lowest possible in GPB, as that's the correct calculated one for my monitor size/distance ratio (Yes there is a calculation for FOV, and yes there is a 'correct' one, its not just personal preference.
It's funny how we mentioned the same thing at the same time, but in a diametrically different manner :)


Quote from: undefinedAs for the in game character vs camera positioning, the one we have now is a good balance I feel between moving and not being over exaggerated like the real movement has the potential to be, although a 3rd 1p camera option with this as a setting would be a nice compromise. Or at least some sliders.
Absolutely agree on that.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on April 21, 2019, 11:41:47 pm
Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 11:38:11 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on April 21, 2019, 11:20:49 pmAs for the FOV, I run the lowest possible in GPB, as that's the correct calculated one for my monitor size/distance ratio (Yes there is a calculation for FOV, and yes there is a 'correct' one, its not just personal preference.
It's funny how we mentioned the same thing at the same time, but in a diametrically different manner :)


Quote from: undefinedAs for the in game character vs camera positioning, the one we have now is a good balance I feel between moving and not being over exaggerated like the real movement has the potential to be, although a 3rd 1p camera option with this as a setting would be a nice compromise. Or at least some sliders.
Absolutely agree on that.

In car sims, I tended to use either a trackIR or a button to look L/r, so if I got the camera where the persons head should be I'd generally adjust the FOV until the steering wheel and hands were 1:1 ratio with mine, and often this isn't generally too far from the calculated one, which I'm not saying should be run 100% as personal comfort and preference is just important, more of a baseline I feel instead of an absolute value. I come from hardcore Car Sim racing so I'm guessing I'd have a different perspective to FOV than some people here who only play motorbike games.

Project cars 1/2 were a good example of camera options. They gave so many menu options/sliders regarding actually playing the game, it meant you could either just plug'n'play, or tailor the experience exactly how you wanted it, regardless of how good/bad the rest of the game is (ITS NOT A SIM BUT THATS FOR A DIFFERENT FORUM LOL). Which is what I feel GPB needs, especially in the Cameras dept. as its sorely lacking customisation aside from the very basics.

As for the other thread, thats not neccessarily because the visuals feel exaggerated, as a matter of fact that TrackIR setting and VR visuals feel very natural, but that in order to use the VR/Track IR to control the rider movement, I would have to really exaggerate the movement of myself, for instance to tuck in I actually have to get up out of my chair and walk a few feet forward. In the sim normally I use the 'Automatic L/R Lean', and the 'y' and 'a' buttons on my xbox gamepad to lean F/R. I use the second 1p sationary cam as the sim controlling the tuck in can be very odd, and cause me to be in the fuel tank lol
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 21, 2019, 11:47:00 pm
Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 10:48:54 pm"My point is that no matter how you configure the settings at the moment, it will never look real because the 1p view position is simply wrong."
Well, it will only look real with VR anyway...
No shit dude but not everybody has that kind of money to spare. Also adds nothing to the discussion.

Quote from: passerBy on April 21, 2019, 10:48:54 pmIn a nutshell: you are suggesting me to try more realistic view settings (already tried, like my settings better), I'm suggesting you to try a more realistic steering (just so that you could see for yourself a little change to the view could make a lot of difference). So I guess we are at an impasse here...
Then again, why are you so against a third FPV camera anyway? It's not like GP Bikes has a lot of first person cameras to begin with.
I don't care how it's implemented but you are completely derailing this thread by bringing up VR, head tracking and direct steering.
All of that simply has nothing to do with the fact that the current first person view is flawed and not realistic. This isn't a matter of opinion: The helmet view does not match the helmet's position so it is wrong.
Again, I don't care how you play the game and I am not trying to get you to change any settings. You use whatever settings you like.
I'll just have you know that the rotating helmet overlay does in fact work very well as a lean angle indicator because it offers a much more consistent reference than the cockpit of the bike.

Lastly, even if it would be relevant to this discussion, I still don't believe that the view moving a bit further down during cornering will make the game unplayable for you because the precise position of the 1p cam is different for every bike anyway.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on April 22, 2019, 12:26:48 am
I agree there are things that can be done to, say, reduce the playable impact of the issue, if its even a big issue at all, which is what I feel the rest of this thread appeared to highlight. (only reason I got involved was to clear up some things in th evideo regarding FOVs and how the movement became like that etc)
I personally understand what you mean vini, and It would be nice to see this implemented in another 1p view like was metioned here:

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on April 21, 2019, 11:20:49 pmAs for the in game character vs camera positioning, the one we have now is a good balance I feel between moving and not being over exaggerated like the real movement has the potential to be, although a 3rd 1p camera option with this as a setting would be a nice compromise. Or at least some sliders.



If I'm not mistaken, Milestones 'SBK X' had the 1p view change depending on what riding style you were in, and it actually matched up in replays as well.
(May have been another SBK Game not sure, but a milestone game did have this, I remember there being some upset as it was taken out, possibly for the jump to the next gen of consoles. (XBOX ONE and PS4)

PS: Sorry for hijacking your thread sorry LOL
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Vini on April 25, 2019, 05:17:14 pm
yeah and sorry for getting a bit aggressive here but it's hard enough to get piboso to notice these suggestions as it is.
Title: Re: First person cam matching the rider head position (NO VR!)
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on April 25, 2019, 08:47:19 pm
Quote from: Vini on April 25, 2019, 05:17:14 pmyeah and sorry for getting a bit aggressive here but it's hard enough to get piboso to notice these suggestions as it is.

Amen to that. Is there not a way to tag them, like an empty quote or something?