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GP Bikes => Suggestions and wishlist => Topic started by: Myst1cPrun3 on May 28, 2019, 10:39:29 PM

Title: Cleaning Up: Improved Leaning Assist Registry/Inputs
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on May 28, 2019, 10:39:29 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 26, 2019, 09:25:21 PMThis is something that has become quite clear to me from when I started in GPB, in that 'disabling' lean help doesn't entirely turn it off.

When I un-check the box for lean help, I would like it to allow me to lean forever effectively, at any point.

This would improve braking no-end, as it would make lines slightly more realistic, and trail braking would require more skill.

At the minute, you can apply pretty much 100% braking force right to the apex, as the rider won't tip the bike further than the grip allows.

This means that braking is somewhat backwards in input, as on most bikes, it is possible to apply MORE braking force leant over than it is when travelling in a straight line, where the bike tends to stoppie.

As a result applying light brake initially and more as you get to the apex and turn in, is the way to go in GPB, but removing the lean cap, and thus making the actual person control how much braking and to control how far to lean at the same time would be much more realistic.

It would increase the amount of front end crashes, as I suspect it would take people a while to get used to how far to go, but overall I feel it would be a step in the right direction, as GBP is supposed to be a simulation, and real bikes don't have stabilisers upon turn in. Hell, even the HIGHLY unrealistic Milestone games allow a full range of lean regardless of throttle/brake inputs. (The results/consequences of doing this may not be realistic but the fact its not prevented by an unseen force is a bonus)

I would personally go as far as removing the max lean limit all together, and make it possible to completely lean off the edge of the tyre. I understand this is a more awkward thing to do, as people have different steering setups, but removing the initial brake/lean help is a MUST for me.

If I was making these changes I would add these max lean 'stabilisers' into the 'lean help' aids option, and potentially make them more strict, (can't lean as far when selected) to result in people who have it selected going slower, thus encouraging them to 'turn it off'

While I would like it to be globally fixed in the next Beta, at the minute I would settle for a line of code to override this in the 'rider.cfg. files, although this code would have to be made redundant if it was to be introduced fully later on, as people would just enable it in the code and go much quicker.

Pls listen PIB

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 11, 2019, 05:00:48 PMJust to get into Piboso's Alerts Inbox

Quote from: Hawk on May 26, 2019, 10:09:45 PMIf you take the riding aids off, then IF the bike physics are correct then you should be able to wash the front end away if you apply the front brake too much. But then with modern bikes being mainly electronically controlled it may well be that they can apply full force on the front brakes without the front end washing away due to the ECU not allowing the front wheel to break grip while braking?
I'm not an aficionado on modern electronically controlled 4 stroke racing bikes, I can't stand them; I think they are an abomination to the sport, so I'm not sure if the electronics extend to controlling the front end traction-control or not? Maybe someone can enlighten me on that matter. :) 

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 26, 2019, 10:36:00 PMIts definitely not electronics, as every bike does it, even those without any, such as the GP250's and GP500's. I also run with no aids, aside from the 'automatic tyre change option', as keep having to change your tyres manually isn't much help in an offline session.

Its definitely GPB physics related from my testing, although whether bike modders can disable it in their bikes is another story, but even Pibs M2 bike does this.

Its just like there's a block when turning in on the brakes, not quite preventing me from losing the front, as I can still crash, but definitely preventing me from leaning over fully, and making corner entry easier.

If I go beyond the maximum lean value, and then squeeze the front brake to slow down, even a little, I lose the front. Its when I'm approaching that value when the 'issue' arises.

As someone whose got more experience on GPB than a real world bike, even I can see that's not how it should work.

I'll try to make a video highlighting it as I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well XD

As for electronics controlling the front, from what research I've done, teh front is more controlled by ABS, which wouldn't prevent leaning over on the brakes. Most high end - modern superbike's (Panigale's, RSV4 Factories, S1000rr's etc) tend to run 'active suspension', where the ECU rapidly adjusts the Damping's to maintain optimum cornering stuff, (not sure what the term is on a bike, in a car its to corner level and flat, so I'm assuming its more stability and load on a bike), but again, this wouldn't prevent you from leaning on the brakes. Or at least that's how I interpret it, there are probably a load more intricacies into it but that's just how I've come to see it.

While the pic below is a 1:12 scale model, the plugs which are visible on the forks are the wires which go to the ECU for the adaptive controls:

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JK4V7Fb/forks.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Quote from: Vini on May 27, 2019, 04:46:08 PMYour proposal for an alternative (non-Direct-Steer) steering mode with absolute lean angle input is valid but not any more valid than the current default steering. Both do not resemble real life motorcycle steering and both are a compromise between realism and usability.
Both have their own subjective advantages: The fact that you cannot fully turn in at max brake (which is realistic) and the ability of standing the bike up with the brake vs. full control over lean angle at any time.
Anyway, I think it would still be good to give us the option because it could work well with certain controllers.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 27, 2019, 05:18:56 PMThis isn't just evident on the brakes, (That was the easiest one to use as an example, but I feel using it has got the entire thread of this topic lost in translation), it is evident when simply going around a turn, the rider will only lean so far, and its impossible to lean further.

THAT is what I'd like to see changed, removing the Maximum Possible Lean, and making it user controlled, or at least part of the 'Lean Assist' option.
As for everyone having different steering inputs, I completely understand that, hence why it should have its own option like you said, however there are several games that don't have a 'Max Lean Value' that utilise game-pads (hence making this a viable 'Default' steering option.)

The one that springs immediately to mind is the 'Suzuki TT Superbike' Game series by Jester on the PS2.
You could lean all the way over and fall off the inside of the tyre if you weren't careful.
This is because it used rider weight to steer the bikes, rather than just steering the bikes, similar to what GPB is trying to do.
So you'd move the joystick fully to whichever way you want to go, and then release it a little bit and hold it there, making minor corrections, to keep it at a constant lean angle, rather than just ramming the stick over fully and relying on the game engine to do the calculations and not crash you.

The reason I included Braking in the original post, as it would make trail braking a little more difficult, as you wouldn't be able to just ram the stick over, and be relatively safe, (Yes I know you can still crash) like you can now, and would do a decent job of covering the weird braking inputs that are possible, but those are for a different thread at a different time.

In other words, it would make it a little more about skill and judgement rather than invisible assists that aren't able to be turned off in the menus.

(Riding in the wet is another example of this 'Max Lean Assist', as it prevents me from going all the way over. (Yes, again, I know you WOULDN'T in the real world, but its not that you COULDN'T in the real world. (You'd crash at a certain point mind you, but GPB prevents this. Its only at camber changes, that result in the Max value becoming less than what your already at, that you crash.) The MG hairpin on Victoria is a good example of camber changes impacting the 'max lean value', and causing a crash, as you can lean fully on the approach, knee down etc, but the minute you hit the apex and it flattens out, the 'Max Lean Value' that would cause a crash is reduced to less than what was achieved on approach, so the front washes out.
The fact braking affects the 'Max Lean Value' is what I was trying to get at, the ability to use this to apply more brake than you could in a straight line is a side effect that could be changed with the removal of the 'Max Lean Value')

Title: Re: Cleaning Up: Improved Leaning Assist Registry/Inputs
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on May 28, 2019, 10:43:40 PM
Hopefully this 'cleanup' makes things a little easier to follow, and helps keep things a little more on topic in the threads - Was my fault in the first place, not very good at explaining myself XD