PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => General Discussion => Topic started by: DidietXFuera on June 21, 2019, 08:05:04 AM

Title: So, what's next?
Post by: DidietXFuera on June 21, 2019, 08:05:04 AM
After the complaint about the copyright from one of the developers, the GP-Bikes forum was increasingly quiet. Does the modder no longer want to make mods? Or is modder just busier in the real world now?

For PiBoSo, I hope you continue to work to develop GP-Bikes for the better. I also hope that GP-Bikes can get the final version as soon as possible. thank you

(https://media.giphy.com/media/9Y5BbDSkSTiY8/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Blackheart on June 21, 2019, 08:25:30 AM
GP Bikes for me needs a new engine this year, modders lose interest with old graphics (and with 40° better to go at the beach).



Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: matty0l215 on June 21, 2019, 09:28:19 AM
I would say old engine is the problem.

More so how difficult it is to work without any sort of documentation.

Making somthing look pretty is one thing but it's no good if it can't be ridden effectivly
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 21, 2019, 09:33:25 AM
Quote from: Blackheart on June 21, 2019, 08:25:30 AMGP Bikes for me needs a new engine this year, modders lose interest with old graphics (and with 40° better to go at the beach).





+1

I've been saying for a few years that Piboso should move over to the UE4 engine.....

For a modern-day "Indie-Dev" to continue developing, maintaining and updating their own engine, never mind the poor-use of time involved(time is money, right?), in this day and age is pure madness! No disrespect but, WAKE-UP Piboso!! :o  :o  ;)  :)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 21, 2019, 11:37:39 AM
+1

Sad to say it too but it is 2019 not 1999..........

The engine is not going to attract new customers in this age of PC gaming. UE4 is the way to go and if your not on the band wagon you get left behind, just hard facts

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: connorhall70 on June 21, 2019, 03:07:12 PM
idk if u remember, but i triggered the entire community sayign this game was gonna die. here we are at the beginning of it all, mods will be unbelievably SLOW being made, and if rushed they wont only probably not ride correctly due to bugs not being fixed to do with mods, but also the models will suck ass. they will be dire compared to what we have been used to getting.
Whats next? looking forward to piboso's annual update. or we could get lucky and receive 2 updates in 1 year!
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 21, 2019, 05:51:05 PM
For me, a game engine update/change is needed ASAP.

Just general modernisation, as GPB is going on for 10 years old (maybe more), and while it still looks better than some games did at that time, and there has been progress, the age is showing.

From what I can gather GPB is Pibs most played game out of his 4, and certainly the most active, and so I would have thought that it would receive the most updates, and get them first, and then have them ported across to the other sims.

However that doesn't appear to be the case sadly, and the lack of development updates is probably going to kill the market, especially as competitors, (and maybe former GP Bikers) enter the market as competitors and not modders. (BSE)

One thing I think would determine if GPB survives or not as is, is the mod content.
Imo Piboso should Not try to moderate what content modders create licensing issues or not.
I appreciate taking the 'moral high ground' etc, but as with all other modded racing sims, it is the modders responsibility, and indeed the modders who get the lawsuits. The minute Pib posted that thread, and tried to take responsibility, he's enabled himself to be open to the legal action, and subsequently killed off a huge nodding community.

As a result to overcome this, a GPB mod download tab on somewhere like Race department would be a benefit to GPB, and would open it up to a bunch of other users, as that's used for several other sums, like rf, 1 and 2, AC, R3E etc. Motogp games are incidentally on there also
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 21, 2019, 05:52:10 PM
There is something to be said having developed your own engine. Its called freedom. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Doom and gloom, either you support PiBoSo on his quest or you don't, plain and simple. There have been members of this forum who have come and gone but PiBoSo is still here!

Like this developer-  http://flarerpg.org/    his engine is awesome... I guess you can just go play diablo but Flare is awesome IMO..
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 21, 2019, 08:11:10 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 21, 2019, 05:52:10 PMThere is something to be said having developed your own engine. Its called freedom. Rome wasn't built in a day.

+1
Agree with that, however in order for that engine to be a success it would have to be constantly updated and go with the times, and even I, who has been here a comparability small amount of time, can see little to no changes in the engine, even from the alpha footage on YT.

The only thing that changes seems to be the quality of content as modders learn the unique engine and find limitations.

Learning an engine it should be said takes time, especially if several other moddable sims use another engine, and can be a pain to work between the two I should imagine.



Quote from: WALKEN on June 21, 2019, 05:52:10 PMDoom and gloom, either you support PiBoSo on his quest or you don't, plain and simple. There have been members of this forum who have come and gone but PiBoSo is still here!

..

As for supporting vs not doing, I'm not entirely sure it's that simple.

We're all here because of the fact there is a severe lack of content when it comes to an 'accurate motorcycle simulator', and GPB, for the most part fills that gap, and as users, we want that game/sim to be the best it can be, (Pib included I should imagine) we just have to figure out how to get there, and how to get the product we all want.

Overall I'd say Pib has done a bang up job so far, especially considering his workload of 4 sims and a custom engine, not to mention the fact that the community is probably one of the best communities out there for gaming, and as the 'off topic' thread suggests, anything else as well.

Seems like Pib has done a good job of bringing like minded people together over a product, that may not initially appeal to most.

However, in in my 2 ish years of being here, there have been about 2-3 updates, and another 2 ish minor ones, which for a product that's supposed to be in active development, isn't really good enough for modern standards. (again nothing against Pib as I know he's got a lot on his plate with his products and I have the utmost admiration for someone as dedicated and as ambitious as that, just saying it as it is, especially for GPBs growth)

Forum members come and go, GP bikers come and go, exactly like you said, but I can't help wondering if the reason why they come and go is because of these very issues, that have been raised in thread after thread topic after topic.
I mean from what I can gather the BSE dev team used to be GPB modders who left the sim to do their own thing, as they felt they could do it better,

Edit:which fair play to them, but you have to ask why did they feel this way?
BSE consequently seems to be promising a very active development, with consistent content and engine updates, and their main marketing seems to be all the things GPB doesn't posess, such as licensed content, the Unreal engine, and various other bits like damage, and manually picking up the bike.
The fact they've built that from scratch in the same time frame as 2 GPB Updates.... While they are a small team and Pib is one guy, it Says a lot for the unreal engines develop-ability, and this boost is just what GPB needs.


To me it seems that GPB is the most popular of pibosos titles, and seems to be the quietest on the 'daily dev reprise', and the update schedule confirms this.

It seems that pib is inadvertently creating his own competitors to me, who are using newer, fancier engines, that are easier for the community to understand, as they're used in several different games.

For now, the classic Assen, an unreal engine update, letting the community make what they want, from where they want, but making THEM suffer the repercussions, like any other sim, as well as hopefully a race-department tab would be a decent start.

STILL love the sim, still love piboso, I just would do things a little different that's all. Shame I'm not smart enough for all this coding crap or I'd give it a bash.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 21, 2019, 08:50:36 PM
Totally agree with you, Myst1cPrun3, you about said it all.  ;)

Personally I think Piboso took too many projects on but he has to do what he has to do to survive I guess.... It's not easy surviving as a one man indie developer in this day and age, but I think he probably makes it harder for himself by not embracing the likes of the UE4 SDK and going with that modern flow these days, it's a terrific deal that Epic are doing for developers there..... I'm sure his work would be quicker and the visual capability is already there built in with no need for Piboso to waste time developing his own engine, as well as most if not all his code could migrate across into the UE4 SDK I would've thought?

What are the benefits of sticking to developing ones own engine these days, when we have the deals that are available today for indie developers, that's what I'd like to know?
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 21, 2019, 10:02:05 PM
IDK Hawk, that is like saying "why have a website when you can just advertise on FB"

People are always telling me how to manage my bands but the interesting thing is we draw more than the way people do things conventionally in the now. We don't do any social media at all only word of mouth and tangible posters/postcards etc...

I respect those who have a vision and don't take the supposed easy way out... Personally I have been involved in MotoGP gaming/racing since 2001 and have seen lots of ideas fail, mostly concerning the higher end companies... But Shawn Hargreaves who developed the netcode for GP1 was way ahead of the game. Also Mah2f and KMASnake from Network-Challenge designed a online recorder for GP games that worked better than all the scoreboards any top shelf developers ever tried... Maybe PiBoSo will linger on in this state of being forever and progress only due to ambition. Besides that physics are way more important than graphics...   

I do understand the desire to have GPBikes move forward but at the same time you need the motivation and sometimes passion oppose to monetary has low moments. Look at Kart Racing Pro on Steam! That doesn't exactly give PiBoSo a big enough reward to work harder IMO... In fact I think I will just go buy it now and be part of the cause & effect. Point is if you want GPBikes to progress then the right thing to do is to support Kart Racing Pro on Steam..

-WALKEN-     
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2019, 10:57:51 PM
Dig deep Walken.

Just wanted to say I loved every minute of my golden GPBikes years. Multiple GPB licences held and worth every penny for the enjoyment I got out of it. Thank you PiBoSo!

But yeah, no engagement with the community and years of forlorn hope later, I just check up here now and again now (well quite regularly actually cos Im a mug). Grateful that people like the Prune-Man keep it alive with the same enthusiasm we had back then, shaking my head but smiling as the same conversations go round and round and round and round. The real hilarity is someone wrote this same kind of message when I joined. Glad no-one searches the forum to see if their post has already been written a million times, or the forum would be up with the Dodo's.   :-*

But I still have some hope for the game but I understand now it may not be in my lifetime and Im not even bitter. The man has his plan and I can respect that even if I cant understand it.

I do wish you all the best, PiBoSo, with your games and life. In the mean time there are other games for me to get enthusiastic about.

See you all at GPB V1 boys.

(Dont mind my signature I thought it was fitting).
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 21, 2019, 11:21:51 PM
Lol! ;D
I really cannot understand your thinking Walken; it's as if your saying that your doing okay as you are so no need to aim for bigger or better or keeping up to date with current trends and technologies for what people want from your products? That may work for a while, but what tends to happen is that people will just suddenly stop buying your stuff because it just doesn't fulfill what they want or need anymore, especially when someone else comes along who moves with the times in using current up to date technology to service a better quality product that also has the quality of your previous product and much more..... No, I just don't understand you thinking mate. :)

An Analogy: It's like your saying that one day in the future, if we continue to support you, you'll eventually win a GP race by riding your moped when everyone else is competing with proper GP racing bikes purposely built to win GP's and expertly updated each year to improve their handling..... Are you serious? Good luck with that I say.... It's madness!! :o  Lol! ;D
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 22, 2019, 05:11:47 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 21, 2019, 11:21:51 PMLol! ;D
I really cannot understand your thinking Walken; it's as if your saying that your doing okay as you are so no need to aim for bigger or better or keeping up to date with current trends and technologies for what people want from your products? That may work for a while, but what tends to happen is that people will just suddenly stop buying your stuff because it just doesn't fulfill what they want or need anymore, especially when someone else comes along who moves with the times in using current up to date technology to service a better quality product that also has the quality of your previous product and much more..... No, I just don't understand you thinking mate. :)

An Analogy: It's like your saying that one day in the future, if we continue to support you, you'll eventually win a GP race by riding your moped when everyone else is competing with proper GP racing bikes purposely built to win GP's and expertly updated each year to improve their handling..... Are you serious? Good luck with that I say.... It's madness!! :o  Lol! ;D


Naaa, I understand completely. It all depends on what the overall goal is, maybe this is enough for PiBoSo? Its like MotoGP19, it has everything anyone could ever want to a point but the fans still bitch they want/need more. You can't make everyone happy. Milestone have been developing bike games for years and everyone is still telling them they suck, do better, lol

Give me a few tracks and a bike or kart and set of scoreboards and thousands of players fighting for a faster lap and I'm happy! Even the lobbies on gp19 PC are thin, imagine how Milestone must feel, lol

The reason I brought up KRP on Steam is because IMO that is PiBoSo way of getting out there and it appears that it just died on the vine? I'm not claiming to know any better than anyone else around here, I'm just sharing my opinion. Imagine GPBikes physics in GP19, then imagine Shawn Hargreaves netcode for online. I caught up with some old friends on Gp19 tonight which directed me to twitch and I directed them here its all anyone can do is spread the word.. Advertise! I also made a KRP video to upload on youtube.

Oooooooor just yell at PiBoSo and tell him to get off his lazy ass and finish GPBikes, lol     :)     
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: adrmelandri on June 23, 2019, 05:34:51 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 21, 2019, 05:51:05 PMAs a result to overcome this, a GPB mod download tab on somewhere like Race department would be a benefit to GPB, and would open it up to a bunch of other users, as that's used for several other sums, like rf, 1 and 2, AC, R3E etc. Motogp games are incidentally on there also
I agree on this. Many people in Indonesia, or at least in MotoGP Game Group, are actually interested with GPB because they've seen us playing the game with many mods, many different types of bike and category with realistic physics.. not to mention the tracks mod also..
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 21, 2019, 08:11:10 PMEdit:which fair play to them, but you have to ask why did they feel this way?
BSE consequently seems to be promising a very active development, with consistent content and engine updates, and their main marketing seems to be all the things GPB doesn't posess, such as licensed content, the Unreal engine, and various other bits like damage, and manually picking up the bike.
The fact they've built that from scratch in the same time frame as 2 GPB Updates.... While they are a small team and Pib is one guy, it Says a lot for the unreal engines develop-ability, and this boost is just what GPB needs.

Except BSE, as aleady said here a while ago, is not using unreal engine (but yeah, they are using some other engine and not their own).

Rest of the discussion is as old as GPB itself. In fact what people will be happy with is not only a new engine. It's a new engine, much improved modding support, better netcode, better physics, everything.
Even assuming all this gets done, some of the already thin player base for motorbike games will still play Milestones/official games, because of the licenses, the advertising, the online competitions with prizes (and maybe even because the AAA motorbike games are getting better, at least judging from the recent Ride/MotoGP19 comments). So it's not even sure that if GPB had all we are asking for, that would be a real breakthrough. Yeah, a bunch of motobike sim nerds will be way happier, but that could be all.

After all this time, my personal conclusion is that PiBoSo may be fine with the current status of things (all his games, not GPB only).
Players come attracted by this or that homemade video on YT or some sporadic spotlight that stumbled on GPB. Initially they are enthusiastic but after 2 years they start complaining about lack of progress and after another 2 years they drop off.
The point is: if they are replaced by some other players (that will eventually drop off themselves later on), this may be OK for PiBoSo.

I'm under the impression the goal is not to succeed, or at least not in the sense the players intend. The goal of GPB/PiBoSo seems to be to survive. Have to admit that it is succesfull in that respect. And I'm not saying this to mock/insult. Atually I wonder how in hell he managed to achieve this with extremely limited resources, no PR/advertising etc.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 09:45:16 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 09:36:13 AMExcept BSE, as aleady said here a while ago, is not using unreal engine (but yeah, they are using some other engine and not their own).


Wasn't too sure what engine it was, thought it was unreal, but it may have been unity, which is  another very good engine, and one that I always mix up with unreal lol.

As for the rest of what you said, yeah, that pretty much covers it.

Just depends on whether Pib wants to do more than survive, and if he does, he should do it ASAP to avoid the player-base depleting to levels of MXB, WRS, and KRP.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 09:45:16 AMJust depends on whether Pib wants to do more than survive
Wants or can. Sometimes it's not a matter of will.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 09:45:16 AM, and if he does, he should do it ASAP to avoid the player-base depleting to levels of MXB, WRS, and KRP.
You think GPB sells better / has more players than KRP and MXB ?!
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 11:12:27 AMYou think GPB sells better / has more players than KRP and MXB ?!


Based off the steam reviews, and the forum activities, I'd say KRP has less 'active' users, and MXB the same.l, and neither have any open servers, but these days there's usually at least one on GBP.
Not too sure about wrs, as I've never even looked into it, as there's so many other great car racing sims out there that offer so much more in all departments
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: PiBoSo on June 23, 2019, 01:40:42 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 09:36:13 AMAfter all this time, my personal conclusion is that PiBoSo may be fine with the current status of things (all his games, not GPB only).
Players come attracted by this or that homemade video on YT or some sporadic spotlight that stumbled on GPB. Initially they are enthusiastic but after 2 years they start complaining about lack of progress and after another 2 years they drop off.
The point is: if they are replaced by some other players (that will eventually drop off themselves later on), this may be OK for PiBoSo.

I'm under the impression the goal is not to succeed, or at least not in the sense the players intend. The goal of GPB/PiBoSo seems to be to survive. Have to admit that it is succesfull in that respect. And I'm not saying this to mock/insult. Atually I wonder how in hell he managed to achieve this with extremely limited resources, no PR/advertising etc.

I'm sorry to give the impression that I am fine, or even happy, with the current state the various projects are in.
I am always very sad when users leave the community because they are not happy with development pace.
The actual goal for this year is to publish all projects on Steam. To do this, work is in progress on a new track and a new bike, and additional content is planned. Of course the TODO list also includes graphics improvements, better multiplayer, better modding tools, revised user interface, ...

I have no time and resources to do PR and advertising, however several users offered help in the past and I am grateful to them. However, I feel like it's not a good move to advertise a project that is still very much work in progress.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: PiBoSo on June 23, 2019, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 11:12:27 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 09:45:16 AMJust depends on whether Pib wants to do more than survive
Wants or can. Sometimes it's not a matter of will.

This.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: PiBoSo on June 23, 2019, 01:54:04 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 12:08:54 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 11:12:27 AMYou think GPB sells better / has more players than KRP and MXB ?!


Based off the steam reviews, and the forum activities, I'd say KRP has less 'active' users, and MXB the same.l, and neither have any open servers, but these days there's usually at least one on GBP.
Not too sure about wrs, as I've never even looked into it, as there's so many other great car racing sims out there that offer so much more in all departments

It's always uncomfortable to talk about sales with users that actually paid their hard earned money to fund a work in progress project.
Nonetheless, since you brought the subject up, please note that forum activity doesn't directly reflect sales.

KRP sells more than double the other projects combined. Even the standalone version of KRP to this day sells about the same as GPB. MXB, despite not being updated in over six months, still sells much more than GPB.

However this doesn't really matter, because I'm trying to give equal time to all projects, except the poor WRS that many times had to take a step back :(
I know that every community would like me to focus 100% on their project, so I guess this is the only fair decision: to make everyone equally unhappy  :-\
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 23, 2019, 06:25:28 PM
"Obviously your ambition outweighs your talent" PiBoSo, lol

Naaaa, I think what you do is amazing! Im grateful to be part of your vision on any level.

Many people have ideas but unless they are in the drivers seat its hard to see the walls one must climb.

Your work deserves attention but at the same time from those who have a deeper interest in the overall goal.

Everyone wants affirmation but it must come from a place that is sincere! Godspeed PiBoSo!

PS- to anyone/everyone, I have been hosting on KRP if yall want to join. Just search for -WALKEN-     
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 23, 2019, 06:47:40 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 12:08:54 PMBased off the steam reviews, and the forum activities, I'd say KRP has less 'active' users, and MXB the same.l, and neither have any open servers, but these days there's usually at least one on GBP.
As per right now, I see 14 MXB servers online ...

Quote from: PiBoSo on June 23, 2019, 01:40:42 PMI'm sorry to give the impression that I am fine, or even happy, with the current state the various projects are in.
Hmm "fine" was probably not the best wording for it from me. Maybe "sustainable" or "acceptable", even if not "satisfactory".

Anyway, thanks for openly replying to all this.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: KG_03 on June 23, 2019, 07:06:39 PM
I see the perfect solution for that situation we have now. PiBoSo could help BSE guys using his experience and code to make the best ass kicking motorcycle game.

I love GP Bikes, and I dont care about candy like graphics in Milestone products. All I care about is realism. I still like to make laps with M2 bike but as I said many times, the thing I really hate in GP Bikes is lack of content and equal physics quality of the mods. I really am thankful to modders for their work but I started to hate situation when after riding on M2 bike at Victoria Circuit I pick modded bike which is more arcady on a track which has the same grip levels on grass as on track. Without help from developer it will be hard to achieve equal moded content.

With the current development speed it will take more years to have around 20 tracks, and few bikes for each category. Im not leaving the comunity because GP Bikes has the best physics which Milestone game will never reach. I just have a feeling that whatever we say or write, we will not change PiBoSo mind. And here we come to THE question... Should we still support the project we are not happy with or should we not? If we yes, we would show we apprecite the developer work (no doubt he deserves that) but in the end we would also show we are happy with the current state of development - what is not true.

BSE is using Unity engine. For me it would be a fantastic if PiBoSo merged with those guys and kicked Milestone ass.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: guigui404 on June 23, 2019, 08:35:30 PM
PiBoSo don't forget that you have give a lot of happiness with all of your games.
No matter how many of us continue to follow or play it , you succeed to create a game we all had enjoy at one time , 100% of us , and I don't think of another game like this actually.
Still hope you the best , with GP-Bikes , or any project you are involved in
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 23, 2019, 09:28:44 PM
I love GPB, and I am on awe of the way Pib goes about the upkeep of 4 sims at once.
I do wish updates would be more frequent, and I do believe that would increase the playerbase/current customer satisfaction.
Also a new engine would be a big boost to attracting new customers, as many more people put a huge emphasis on graphics over physics, which, while I don't agree with, first impressions, and indeed the visual fidelity, do count.

Anyway, regardless, I'll keep coming back to GPB religiously, due to the sheer variation of content, and the VR, which is awesome.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 24, 2019, 05:01:14 AM
I will never give up on GPB........for me the one thing apart from the bike physics is input control and adjusability, there is nobody out there that can touch Piboso on this point

MASSIVE THANKS Mr P

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: poumpouny on June 24, 2019, 08:01:35 AM
I'm very disappointed with how the humanity is thinking these days :

1 : Big company ( like Milestone) make AAA games, with a "compromise physic" to attract more people to be able to make profit and pay their hundreds of employee, licences fee. and is forced to make almost 1 new game each years.

Humanity : "Fuck off Milestone, don't mess me with you're eye candy UE4 thing, you'physics sucks, Go hire a really physic developer."

2 : 1 Guy develop an indie motorcycle simulator, with kicking ass physics (still not finished since 10 years), VR support, a ton of mod (almost all existing track), unbeatable input configurability, track ir support,  , and sell it 29 Bucks + a free copy of WRS (a car simulator with also kicking ass physics, especially on dirt) ........

Humanity : "Fuck off Piboso, you're game looks like a 1990's atari title, you're physic is not an excuse to not have eye candy, why don't you switch to UE4 ? it's very easy no ?"


- Guys, you don't even imagine what a nightmare UE4 is and how much work represent switching engine (i'm working in that area so i'know what i'm talking about) ! IF you doubt ask Kunos's guy ! Also you're also forgetting how difficult is to mod an UE4 based game ............


Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Peoples on June 24, 2019, 08:20:14 AM
I really enjoy playing GP bikes despite all the current inconvenients of the game. Piboso should be proud about what he achieved, but many things need to be improved... I just want to say thank you for developing this game, which is the best motorcycle game ever in terms of physics, but as people already said the community is decreasing and some guys dissapointed with the barely support of GPB. I hope that you get GPB released in steam soon and improve the game (at least the basic stuff to avoid people to be angry).
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: KG_03 on June 24, 2019, 09:49:35 AM
Yes I agree switching engines would cost too much time, ale I would say that gp bikes graphics are good. With post processing it might get that eyecandy some need.

All I need now is a motorbike for each class with dedicated tyres so modders could use the tyres as a reference for modding. And of course more tracks made by PiBoSo what will be a warranty for equal content not a mix of simulation/arcade.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Blackheart on June 24, 2019, 12:17:33 PM
Im in a big motorycle community on xbox, and some guys ask me about GP Bikes, 'unfortunately' the graphics is important. And GP Bikes in years is not changes in this area.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Aernouts2 on June 24, 2019, 12:19:55 PM
Hello All,

Not posting much on here... for me personal the main reason i have never bought it (played only a few demo's in the early days).
Is that there is no AI !... without AI's and as i read on forum with a lot of online connecting problems, there is not much left.

And although i have a lot of respect for Piboso for building everything up from the ground (on his own ??) it probably takes to long to get it finished.

Dont get me wrong it is not somthing I worry about, but for this game to become a succes.... i dunno :(
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 24, 2019, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: poumpouny on June 24, 2019, 08:01:35 AMI'm very disappointed with how the humanity is thinking these days :

1 : Big company ( like Milestone) make AAA games, with a "compromise physic" to attract more people to be able to make profit and pay their hundreds of employee, licences fee. and is forced to make almost 1 new game each years.

Humanity : "Fuck off Milestone, don't mess me with you're eye candy UE4 thing, you'physics sucks, Go hire a really physic developer."

2 : 1 Guy develop an indie motorcycle simulator, with kicking ass physics (still not finished since 10 years), VR support, a ton of mod (almost all existing track), unbeatable input configurability, track ir support,  , and sell it 29 Bucks + a free copy of WRS (a car simulator with also kicking ass physics, especially on dirt) ........

Humanity : "Fuck off Piboso, you're game looks like a 1990's atari title, you're physic is not an excuse to not have eye candy, why don't you switch to UE4 ? it's very easy no ?"


- Guys, you don't even imagine what a nightmare UE4 is and how much work represent switching engine (i'm working in that area so i'know what i'm talking about) ! IF you doubt ask Kunos's guy ! Also you're also forgetting how difficult is to mod an UE4 based game ............




All people are saying is what the vast majority of people want, and first rule of business(if you want to make any real money) is you give the people what they want and not what one wants..... No inhumanity about that at all in my book.... This is not a hobby, it's a business.  :)
I think we'd all agree that if we could keep the Piboso physics, replay system and modding functionality, and yet also have the UE4 visuals and network stability, all working nice and stable, then we'd all be very happy bunnies. ;D

There are still many elements of GPB that are far superior than what Milestone have ever achieved with the MotoGP series, that is without any doubt whatsoever.... Only yesterday we were playing MotoGP 19 and talking about if only they could add this and that from Piboso's GPBikes, or vice versa, it would be great!

So even though it may seem that some of us are bashing Piboso, we are not just complaining for no reasons, and as a developer, I would rather hear all the complaints rather than the compliments cause the complaints are the things that you can work on to improve your work, compliments are nice to hear and no-doubt appreciated but they are ten-a-penny and don't really mean that much in the big scheme of things.
The thing is that it's the frustrating issues that get talked about 99.9% of the time in any fan-base, and it could be easy for a single indie dev like Piboso to think that his work is crap, when in actual fact it's very very good in many ways(frustrating in other ways)... But if nothing was said at all then how could Piboso know what the issues are that he may not be aware of? Complaint's wishes and wants are just something that all developers will be asked and plagued about... It's just "par for the course" as they say.

As for switching GPB to UE4.... A lot would depend on the design of Piboso's code.... If it's well designed then it would make the transition a lot easier with less work involved(I presume Piboso codes in C++). But only Piboso could know how complicated it would be for him personally to achieve this; so there's no point in saying how hard it is when, to be honest, without studying Piboso's GPBikes source code you really haven't a clue just what complications would be involved in achieving that aim, only Piboso would know that.

About the modding...... No disrespect, poumpouny, but as you know what you are talking about, then please do tell us just how difficult is it to MOD a UE4 moddable game and why you think it is such a difficult thing to achieve as part of a UE4 SDK game modding procedure? :)

Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 24, 2019, 04:08:46 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2019, 03:26:10 PM
Quote from: poumpouny on June 24, 2019, 08:01:35 AMI'm very disappointed with how the humanity is thinking these days :

1 : Big company ( like Milestone) make AAA games, with a "compromise physic" to attract more people to be able to make profit and pay their hundreds of employee, licences fee. and is forced to make almost 1 new game each years.

Humanity : "Fuck off Milestone, don't mess me with you're eye candy UE4 thing, you'physics sucks, Go hire a really physic developer."

2 : 1 Guy develop an indie motorcycle simulator, with kicking ass physics (still not finished since 10 years), VR support, a ton of mod (almost all existing track), unbeatable input configurability, track ir support,  , and sell it 29 Bucks + a free copy of WRS (a car simulator with also kicking ass physics, especially on dirt) ........

Humanity : "Fuck off Piboso, you're game looks like a 1990's atari title, you're physic is not an excuse to not have eye candy, why don't you switch to UE4 ? it's very easy no ?"


- Guys, you don't even imagine what a nightmare UE4 is and how much work represent switching engine (i'm working in that area so i'know what i'm talking about) ! IF you doubt ask Kunos's guy ! Also you're also forgetting how difficult is to mod an UE4 based game ............




All people are saying is what the vast majority of people want, and first rule of business(if you want to make any real money) is you give the people what they want and not what one wants..... No inhumanity about that at all in my book.... This is not a hobby, it's a business.  :)
I think we'd all agree that if we could keep the Piboso physics, replay system and modding functionality, and yet also have the UE4 visuals and network stability, all working nice and stable, then we'd all be very happy bunnies. ;D

There are still many elements of GPB that are far superior than what Milestone have ever achieved with the MotoGP series, that is without any doubt whatsoever.... Only yesterday we were playing MotoGP 19 and talking about if only they could add this and that from Piboso's GPBikes, or vice versa, it would be great!

So even though it may seem that some of us are bashing Piboso, we are not just complaining for no reasons, and as a developer, I would rather hear all the complaints rather than the compliments cause the complaints are the things that you can work on to improve your work, compliments are nice to hear and no-doubt appreciated but they are ten-a-penny and don't really mean that much in the big scheme of things.
The thing is that it's the frustrating issues that get talked about 99.9% of the time in any fan-base, and it could be easy for a single indie dev like Piboso to think that his work is crap, when in actual fact it's very very good in many ways(frustrating in other ways)... But if nothing was said at all then how could Piboso know what the issues are that he may not be aware of? Complaint's wishes and wants are just something that all developers will be asked and plagued about... It's just "par for the course" as they say.

As for switching GPB to UE4.... A lot would depend on the design of Piboso's code.... If it's well designed then it would make the transition a lot easier with less work involved(I presume Piboso codes in C++). But only Piboso could know how complicated it would be for him personally to achieve this; so there's no point in saying how hard it is when, to be honest, without studying Piboso's GPBikes source code you really haven't a clue just what complications would be involved in achieving that aim, only Piboso would know that.

About the modding...... No disrespect, poumpouny, but as you know what you are talking about, then please do tell us just how difficult is it to MOD a UE4 moddable game and why you think it is such a difficult thing to achieve as part of a UE4 SDK game modding procedure? :)




+1 for all this

And as for ue4 modding, it can't be that hard to do, (in comparison) as both MotoGP 19, and, most notably mod wise, Assetto Corsa use this engine.

There are programmes to convert models directly as well, so I can't see a reason this couldn't be done in GPB should the engine change happen.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: matty0l215 on June 24, 2019, 06:09:22 PM
Models aren't an issue. They are just models. The main problem is weather the base code would be at all compatible with the unreal engine.

Would it be worth it? Maybe. Only Piboso would know that.

I will be honest considering how far this engine has come, assuming the graphics side can be updated, I wouldn't just abandon it. As Walken said, Piboso has 100% control over its direction and what "can" be done with it.

More smaller updates would be beneficial than waiting 6 months to a year for each game. Also patching would be useful as opposed to full updates.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 24, 2019, 06:49:30 PM
Fxxx yes it will be worth it.........as great as GPB is........... PEOPLE, CUSTOMERS today demand high end graphics...........do you understand the largest consumer of bike games is under 20 and wants bling for there money not almost.

I ACTUALLY NEED THE UE4 kind of level because as good as the physics are in GPB my eyes constantly tell me its just a sim. I want The FEEL of it AND the vision of it, just the physics will never be enough. If Piboso does not make that happen then GPB will never give a true and real feeling to the rider.

Graphic quality means closer to real world vision so to say you can play GPB with unrealistic grahics and your happy, you make it no reason to progress.

I think this is the most frustrating forum there is, this is the best dang motocycle sim in the world and I gotta say Mr P Has done an incredible job. BUT the wants of different people are in different directions.

BUT what if WE all the loyel members said, "We want UE4" and then said "We will buy another lisence to help development" if you all feel like I do you WANT this to happen, so in many ways we need to find a way to persuade Mr P to at least look into and then tell us what it would take in time and money to put GPB on UE4................Then WE can make a Battleplan.............

Just my 2 magic beans of thought

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 24, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
I would definitely pay another £29.99 for a Piboso GPBikes UE4 version that also takes advantage of the UE4 visual capabilities, so long as I could use FBX files to transfer my MOD models(Bike, track, rider, environment) + animations(bike, track, rider, environment) into UE4, and from UE4 be able to add/adjust textures/maps as well as add all the bikes physics data for bikeMODS and then export the mod from UE4 into a game file for GPBikes(preferably all MOD files would have to be encrypted - UE4 can do this).

But yeah, I would be willing to pay £29.99 to Piboso again for that. ;)

PS: Also make it so that you cannot import any encrypted GPBike game files back into UE4.

Good points DD about good visuals do actually enhance the immersion and feel of a simulator, your right, it's not just about having the best physics in the business. +1 mate! ;)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 24, 2019, 07:21:55 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on June 24, 2019, 06:09:22 PMMore smaller updates would be beneficial than waiting 6 months to a year for each game. Also patching would be useful as opposed to full updates.





I guess the patching would be better when it goes live on steam, as it means it would auto update, rather than keep having to re-download the launcher.




Quote from: doubledragoncc on June 24, 2019, 06:49:30 PMF**k yes it will be worth it.........as great as GPB is........... PEOPLE, CUSTOMERS today demand high end graphics...........do you understand the largest consumer of bike games is under 20 and wants bling for there money not almost.

I ACTUALLY NEED THE UE4 kind of level because as good as the physics are in GPB my eyes constantly tell me its just a sim. I want The FEEL of it AND the vision of it, just the physics will never be enough. If Piboso does not make that happen then GPB will never give a true and real feeling to the rider.

Graphic quality means closer to real world vision so to say you can play GPB with unrealistic graphics and your happy, you make it no reason to progress.

I think this is the most frustrating forum there is, this is the best dang motorcycle sim in the world and I gotta say Mr P Has done an incredible job. BUT the wants of different people are in different directions.

BUT what if WE all the loyal members said, "We want UE4" and then said "We will buy another licence to help development" if you all feel like I do you WANT this to happen, so in many ways we need to find a way to persuade Mr P to at least look into and then tell us what it would take in time and money to put GPB on UE4................Then WE can make a Battleplan.............

Just my 2 magic beans of thought

DD



As for Ue4 Graphics, people can be fickle, and judge a game/sim based on what they can see, and rarely pay attention to the button layouts of their controller never mind physics.

Only time they appreciate it is when these things are shockingly bad.

I do also agree that playing with the current graphics is a constant reminder that I am in a sim, as there are constant flickers and stuff like that.
It becomes especially noticeable when in VR, as some of the dashes are a little blurry, and sometimes the colors run over each other.

(Can be seen in my spa 500 2T Video, although I'm not sure how much is GPB vs Oculus, as its only started since the last 2 oculus home updates, maybe GPB needs a hotfix to account for it IDK)

Graphics are one of the reasons I'm looking forward to BSE, while again, in a sim, physics are usually taken over graphics, (In old game development this was because there wasn't sufficient hardware to have the calculations for physics and the graphical rendering at the same time, but its better now LOL) however that's not to say graphics are unimportant.

As for money, I appreciate the main sim is a little sparse content wise, but I feel if the New/Old Assen track gets released as well as possibly a refresh on the old versions of Laguna Seca and Lime Rock Park that used to be present, and the older Murusama bikes get a bit of a refresh, newer physics/sounds etc, then that would be enough for a base game, as much like rFactor, GPB shines on the Mods, and not the base content.

The reason I drag that into money, as if the quality is there, (Which judging off Pibs previous it is), I would gladly pay for any fresh content as paid DLC, licensed or no.

I understand Paid DLC is a bit of a 'Taboo' topic in the gaming world, but I would much prefer to boost Pibs enthusiasm with this approach rather than buying more copies of GPB, as I have no reason for more GPB copies at this point, but this way I could actually use the DLC, and get some bang for my buck so to speak.

Just so long as there aren't loot crates XD

Incidentally I would buy a new license for a re-release, or a 'GP Bikes 2' which is on UE4
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 24, 2019, 07:51:33 PM
I am not fickle.........I am old and my eyes give me a problem with the graphics if they are of bad quality or the colouration is in certain ways. I actuslly need quality graphics to be able to see where the god dang tamac is or Im done......that is NO joke

I have a serious problem with low quality, low pixel graghics, it strains my eyes, and no glasses dont help. I had a serious facial injury thats left my eyes very sensiitive. After 10-15 mins in GPB my eyes get slightly blury by the end of an online race they burn, but was fun, yet I can ride in Ride3 or MotoGP19 and even MXGP3 for an hour or more and it wont get half as bad............Think about what I just said.............UE4 is not only better visually, it is acually physcally better, I am not the only person with eye problems or glasses and we should be taken into account when it comes to it.

That said and the cats out the bag, NO matter what I will stick with GPB. I am kinda sworn to and honor Piboso, he/she has given me a goal and path to follow and it all started with GPBike by Piboso

I have a few things in a closet that maybe with luck I can reveal to all and brighten the day

I think only the Brits or do I have to say English too here will understand the last sentence.........with luck it will be good

Stay positive chaps

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 24, 2019, 08:30:33 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on June 24, 2019, 07:51:33 PMI am not fickle.........I am old and my eyes give me a problem with the graphics if they are of bad quality or the colouration is in certain ways. I actuslly need quality graphics to be able to see where the god dang tamac is or Im done......that is NO joke

I have a serious problem with low quality, low pixel graghics, it strains my eyes, and no glasses dont help. I had a serious facial injury thats left my eyes very sensiitive. After 10-15 mins in GPB my eyes get slightly blury by the end of an online race they burn, but was fun, yet I can ride in Ride3 or MotoGP19 and even MXGP3 for an hour or more and it wont get half as bad............Think about what I just said.............UE4 is not only better visually, it is acually physcally better, I am not the only person with eye problems or glasses and we should be taken into account when it comes to it.

That said and the cats out the bag, NO matter what I will stick with GPB. I am kinda sworn to and honor Piboso, he/she has given me a goal and path to follow and it all started with GPBike by Piboso

I have a few things in a closet that maybe with luck I can reveal to all and brighten the day

I think only the Brits or do I have to say English too here will understand the last sentence.........with luck it will be good

Stay positive chaps

DD

Not meaning you DD, 'fickle' meaning people who judge a game solely off graphics, without even looking at the physics, I have a few friends like that.

In other words, those who disregard physics completely for graphics.

Chances are, anyone who plays GPB is interested in the physics side of things as well, however I fully appreciate the fact that graphics, (while potentially not as important as those fickle judges believe) should be good, up to standard and smooth, but NOT the selling point.

It was. mainly aimed at attracting the new market not existing users.

But yeah, either way, the sheer customisable nature of GPB will ensure a steady stream of new modded content to keep people (myself included) coming back to this title.

At the end of the day I just wanna Race, and ATM in GPB that isn't really happening for one reason or another.
Hence my addiction to MotoGP 19, as the AI, while not perfect in any stretch, are more than capable of decent racing, whenever I want.

Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 25, 2019, 06:27:59 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2019, 03:26:10 PMAs for switching GPB to UE4.... A lot would depend on the design of Piboso's code.... If it's well designed then it would make the transition a lot easier with less work involved(I presume Piboso codes in C++). But only Piboso could know how complicated it would be for him personally to achieve this; so there's no point in saying how hard it is when, to be honest, without studying Piboso's GPBikes source code you really haven't a clue just what complications would be involved in achieving that aim, only Piboso would know that.
I think he's already answered this a while ago: switching to a different game engine would be a massive project.
I also think he's already said he's using C, not C++.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: poumpouny on June 25, 2019, 11:39:12 AM
@HAwk :

when you write you own engine (like gpb or the original AC1) the base game itself is made of a folder configuration that allows you to make you bike/track via bike ed, export it and then place it in a given folder (bike/track folder) then the game see it easily. IF you open your Assetto Corsa Competizione (wich is made with UE4) steam folder (. all it's content is grouped under an archive (.pak) files wich is a 7Gig single file that you cannot extract with winrar or 7zip. I Don't know if Kunos protect it intentionally (surely) or if you need to recompile the game each time you ad a content via UE4, wich mean you need the source code ......

Also you don't understant what i mean, I will be the first person who will buy beer to the whole forum if one day we get the GPbikes physics + Moto gp 19 graphic and neural AI + GP1 netcode. The thing is that the main thing of gpbikes (the physics) is still not finished, the downhill physic thing, damage model etc ..... So please give time to Piboso to first fix and finish that and then we can retalk about UE4 or not ....and in my opinion, the GPbike graphic engine is not that bad, i think it "just" need to handle PBR material/shader. Look how beautiful and how light is the original assetto corsa with Sol and the custom shader patch ..... even ACC which is 1year old is not that far graphically......
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 25, 2019, 01:33:57 PM
Kunos provide the fide for assetto corsa, as they encourage mods for that title.

ACC is encrypted as that's not moddable, dye to the fact its a licensed series fake and not a general simulation.

As for graphics, I'm not sure what you're looking at  poumpouny, and I don't mean to be harsh, but GPB is closer to rf1 and RBR graphically, (to be expected considering the base GPB game was developed at that time frame I should imagine) and nowhere even close to any assetto corsa, default, modded, or new, bit in fidelity, and lighting.


This becomes extremely evident when running vr, and with supersampling etc
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: XTRMLN on June 25, 2019, 02:26:52 PM
Interesting read...For me. Graphics the least important. I only play in first person VR so the track visuals is all I really care about and that stuffs whizzing by pretty quick anyways. It's all about if "feel" is achieved while riding in game. For the most part GPB does that for me. Is it perfect? Nope. Will I stay around to see how it pans out?  Yes. Unless the garage bug doesn't get fixed. When it rears it's ugly head it about makes me want to break things. 
  That being said, I'm not against a better looking game either. I would definitely be in the camp of willing to pay more to get more.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 05:46:43 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 25, 2019, 06:27:59 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 24, 2019, 03:26:10 PMAs for switching GPB to UE4.... A lot would depend on the design of Piboso's code.... If it's well designed then it would make the transition a lot easier with less work involved(I presume Piboso codes in C++). But only Piboso could know how complicated it would be for him personally to achieve this; so there's no point in saying how hard it is when, to be honest, without studying Piboso's GPBikes source code you really haven't a clue just what complications would be involved in achieving that aim, only Piboso would know that.
I think he's already answered this a while ago: switching to a different game engine would be a massive project.
I also think he's already said he's using C, not C++.

Ah. But he didn't say why?

Would it be a massive job due to Piboso needing to take a lot of time to research and learn how to use UE4 as well as how he would even start to go about the transition of his code into UE4 and taking advantage of all the AAA visual technologies and texture, lighting and mapping capabilities, etc, etc?
OR, would it be a massive job because he thinks cause of the way his code is designed that to take advantage of the UE4 capabilities he would basically be better to start from scratch again?

Whatever the reason, I personally think it would be a good move to make, even if he continued to work on his other projects to keep the money coming in while working on GPBikes to make the move to UE4? So what better project to reignite interest in the GPBikes project again and not lose anything cause of the initial development time to get it into UE4? After all Piboso has said that GPBikes doesn't really pay for itself, so nothing to lose but try.

It's inevitable that he's going to have to make that leap of faith change to one of the leading SDK's(UE4 or Unity) at some stage in the near future anyway the way the indie-dev market is going or he'll soon find himself standing still in the industry unless he confines himself to developing very simple kiddies games or the like, or finds the money to invest in a large team to work on his projects with him? Chances are that anyone he does find these days will want to be working with either UE4 or Unity anyway.... It's just the way games development has evolved now and for good reasons unless you've come up with an idea that is going to take a very specially dedicated way of doing things to achieve it, and even then these SDK's are well modifiable for ones needs, and some do that now, so it's still a no-brainer to use them, in my opinion.

I mean why stick to using a horse and cart when you can be chauffeured in a limousine or driving a super-car? ;)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 06:13:46 PM
Isn't there a disconnect between simulation and reality?

I remember going to universal studio and going on some virtual rides, although amazing and heart pounding they where not reality by far... And those virtual rides back then were miles beyond the best VR we have in our homes today...

No software can ever replace reality. It can only represent it by its creators.

I will say this- just the risk taken in a simulation oppose to real life is a big disconnect all in itself...

How one feels connected to reality through virtual reality is personal. DD's controller is modeled after a real motorcycle and brings you closer to the feeling of being on a real motorcycle, but isn't it best to just enjoy it for what it is, a controller!

Like electric drums, you can trick the listener into thinking they are hearing a real kit but the drummer is challenged by touch sensitivity. So the listener is only using one sense where the drummer is using many. Companies are getting closer to bridging the gap.



I think what Hawk is saying is PiBoSo isn't taking advantage of the available tools to bring GPBikes to another level, PiBoSo is making his own tools, hence the pace of the projects.

Isn't the important part of development creating an engine?   

         
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 25, 2019, 06:45:11 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 06:13:46 PMIsn't there a disconnect between simulation and reality?

I remember going to universal studio and going on some virtual rides, although amazing and heart pounding they where not reality by far... And those virtual rides back then were miles beyond the best VR we have in our homes today...

No software can ever replace reality. It can only represent it by its creators.

I will say this- just the risk taken in a simulation oppose to real life is a big disconnect all in itself...

How one feels connected to reality through virtual reality is personal. DD's controller is modeled after a real motorcycle and brings you closer to the feeling of being on a real motorcycle, but isn't it best to just enjoy it for what it is, a controller!

Like electric drums, you can trick the listener into thinking they are hearing a real kit but the drummer is challenged by touch sensitivity. So the listener is only using one sense where the drummer is using many. Companies are getting closer to bridging the gap.



I think what Hawk is saying is PiBoSo isn't taking advantage of the available tools to bring GPBikes to another level, PiBoSo is making his own tools, hence the pace of the projects.

Isn't the important part of development creating an engine?   

         

I will say, that some games have a very blurred line between reality and the game, and that you can get so engrossed into a game it is very easy to forget the world around you completely.

It's happened to me a few times, although never, in GP Bikes sadly.

The first time I remember wasn't even in VR, but in R3E, in the Group 5 cars at the NorisRing. (The german street circuit) They were just so good, I completely lost any sense of being in my bedroom, despite being in a simulation.

The second, was in iRacing, when enjoying a close Skip Barber Race, wheel to wheel all the way around. This was In VR, and was the most fun I've ever had in VR, GPB included.

Thirdly was in a VR game called Zero Caliber. Its a military 'simulator', and I utterly crapped myself as the sounds sights and involvement was quite 'convincing', especially for me.

The point that's in there somewhere, is that the graphics of each of these is top of the range for their field, although, they have distinctly different engines and design processes.

However these had one thing over my current GPB setup, and that was physical interaction, I have a TX base for driving and was using the Oculus Touch controllers for shooting, yet on GPB I'm using a gamepad.

Despite this, even in the comparatively low quality/res oculus, the graphics in these games were noticeably better than GPB, and a large graphical engine boost would be needed to achieve this.
Unreal engine is a huge engine that is well known in the gaming community, and has proven results in graphics, physics, and mods departments, so for me, and I think most of the community, this would be the logical way to go development wise. As I said it is well known, so it could also be used as a marketing tool.

As for creating an engine being an important part of development, I personally think that time has passed. As there are so many high quality engines out there that are easy to use, easy to run hardware wise, and free to develop, I believe that creating an engine is pointless in the current gaming climate, and takes a huge amount of development away from other areas, and slows development down.

I have the utmost admiration for anyone who wants to make their own engine however, and I also understand the benefits, and to be honest, at GPB's conception it was probably the meta to have a personal engine for a personal game, however that time has passed.


Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 07:12:21 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 06:13:46 PMIsn't there a disconnect between simulation and reality?

I remember going to universal studio and going on some virtual rides, although amazing and heart pounding they where not reality by far... And those virtual rides back then were miles beyond the best VR we have in our homes today...

No software can ever replace reality. It can only represent it by its creators.

I will say this- just the risk taken in a simulation oppose to real life is a big disconnect all in itself...

How one feels connected to reality through virtual reality is personal. DD's controller is modeled after a real motorcycle and brings you closer to the feeling of being on a real motorcycle, but isn't it best to just enjoy it for what it is, a controller!

Like electric drums, you can trick the listener into thinking they are hearing a real kit but the drummer is challenged by touch sensitivity. So the listener is only using one sense where the drummer is using many. Companies are getting closer to bridging the gap.



I think what Hawk is saying is PiBoSo isn't taking advantage of the available tools to bring GPBikes to another level, PiBoSo is making his own tools, hence the pace of the projects.

Isn't the important part of development creating an engine?   

       

Yes.... I think your absolutely right Walken. Though I think in DD's case his real motorcycle controller does give a massive added immersion factor that cannot just be dismissed as using any other type of controller, if this is what I understand you are suggesting?
The feel and added immersion of using real controller interfaces and applications goes far beyond just using, let's say, a normal game controller pad when playing a simulation, surely?

Yes, I am basically just saying that Piboso isn't taking advantage of the tools at his disposal in this modern era of games/simulation developments, BUT no I do not agree that in this day and age, specially for a one man band indie developer like Piboso, to even consider creating their own game engine, but to use the modern tools available so as to be able to dedicate all ones precious and little time to solely creating what it is you want to create..... That is the way games development has evolved because these modern AAA game/entertainment SDK's are SO good and professionally created and supported nowadays that creating your own indie developed engine is something that only exists in the dark ages of games development when these excellent resources were not freely available with the added benefit of excellent very cheap deals, in UE4's case, for the pro-devs to use..... It's time to move forward with the times or I fear Piboso will be left standing still.... Yes, this is what I'm saying.

I'll end by saying: Why do you think many of the major developers are making that move over to using the UE4 engine? Because they know that with all the advances that are happening, that even with their own team of resources available, they will never be able to keep up with the likes of a dedicated massive team of guys working soley on an SDK like UE4.... Like I said, it's a no-brainer decision for any developer nowadays to use these AAA game SDK's(especially for a one man team or a small dev team) and not even to think about developing their own dedicated engine unless there are very good reasons to do so, and Piboso's projects hold no reasons whatsoever, in my opinion, that require a self engineered dedicated engine at all. So I ask myself what's Piboso's thinking on this other than a possible case of ego or pride? Well, pride and ego ain't going to pay the bills is it?
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 07:15:14 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 25, 2019, 06:45:11 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 06:13:46 PMIsn't there a disconnect between simulation and reality?

I remember going to universal studio and going on some virtual rides, although amazing and heart pounding they where not reality by far... And those virtual rides back then were miles beyond the best VR we have in our homes today...

No software can ever replace reality. It can only represent it by its creators.

I will say this- just the risk taken in a simulation oppose to real life is a big disconnect all in itself...

How one feels connected to reality through virtual reality is personal. DD's controller is modeled after a real motorcycle and brings you closer to the feeling of being on a real motorcycle, but isn't it best to just enjoy it for what it is, a controller!

Like electric drums, you can trick the listener into thinking they are hearing a real kit but the drummer is challenged by touch sensitivity. So the listener is only using one sense where the drummer is using many. Companies are getting closer to bridging the gap.



I think what Hawk is saying is PiBoSo isn't taking advantage of the available tools to bring GPBikes to another level, PiBoSo is making his own tools, hence the pace of the projects.

Isn't the important part of development creating an engine?   

         

I will say, that some games have a very blurred line between reality and the game, and that you can get so engrossed into a game it is very easy to forget the world around you completely.

It's happened to me a few times, although never, in GP Bikes sadly.

The first time I remember wasn't even in VR, but in R3E, in the Group 5 cars at the NorisRing. (The german street circuit) They were just so good, I completely lost any sense of being in my bedroom, despite being in a simulation.

The second, was in iRacing, when enjoying a close Skip Barber Race, wheel to wheel all the way around. This was In VR, and was the most fun I've ever had in VR, GPB included.

Thirdly was in a VR game called Zero Caliber. Its a military 'simulator', and I utterly crapped myself as the sounds sights and involvement was quite 'convincing', especially for me.

The point that's in there somewhere, is that the graphics of each of these is top of the range for their field, although, they have distinctly different engines and design processes.

However these had one thing over my current GPB setup, and that was physical interaction, I have a TX base for driving and was using the Oculus Touch controllers for shooting, yet on GPB I'm using a gamepad.

Despite this, even in the comparatively low quality/res oculus, the graphics in these games were noticeably better than GPB, and a large graphical engine boost would be needed to achieve this.
Unreal engine is a huge engine that is well known in the gaming community, and has proven results in graphics, physics, and mods departments, so for me, and I think most of the community, this would be the logical way to go development wise. As I said it is well known, so it could also be used as a marketing tool.

As for creating an engine being an important part of development, I personally think that time has passed. As there are so many high quality engines out there that are easy to use, easy to run hardware wise, and free to develop, I believe that creating an engine is pointless in the current gaming climate, and takes a huge amount of development away from other areas, and slows development down.

I have the utmost admiration for anyone who wants to make their own engine however, and I also understand the benefits, and to be honest, at GPB's conception it was probably the meta to have a personal engine for a personal game, however that time has passed.




+1 mate... Totally agree with that.  ;)

Very true what you said about if Piboso used the UE4 engine that it alone would be a big selling point simply cause of UE4's reputation in the industry and fans a like..... Well pointed out mate.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 07:53:09 PM
lol, Hawk :) I'm glad you agree. I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

There is this thing called- impulse resolution

Its not as simple as just changing engines. 
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 08:46:52 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 07:53:09 PMlol, Hawk :) I'm glad you agree. I'm not disagreeing with you at all.

There is this thing called- impulse resolution

Its not as simple as just changing engines. 

Your right mate, it's not as simple as we are likely making it sound. Just that in my opinion, the transition to a AAA SDK engine to do his work on will have to be realised by Piboso at some stage..... The days of indie-devs creating all their own bespoke code for everything they need to develop a game are now gone and Piboso needs to realise this in my opinion. The job to do that for modern games/sims is just too great for a one-man band without using these SDk resources available nowadays, that's why everyone is using and developing on them; that's why all these game development students at universities are being taught on them, right? Surely using an SDK is no different to using a 3D app to create the models to use in a game.... So what's the big issue with some of these old school indie-dev guys.... I just don't understand their stance on this matter? :o  :)

It would help shut-down this debate if Piboso would explain his thoughts on the matter in more detail so we could understand better why he doesn't seem to think it would be a good direction to take with his projects, or to find out whether it is definitely something he has and is indeed considering for the future, near or far? ;)  :)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: matty0l215 on June 25, 2019, 08:48:41 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 08:46:52 PMIt would help shut-down this debate if Piboso would explain his thoughts on the matter in more detail so we could understand better why he doesn't seem to think it would be a good direction to take with his projects, or to find out whether it is definitely something he has and is indeed considering for the future, near or far? ;)  :)

This...

Maybe it's time for another state of the Union, Piboso.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 PM
Physics!

Impulse Resolution... Maybe UE4 sucks in this department? GPBikes isn't call of duty...

Name one racing game physics better than GPBikes? GP19 physics are not on par with PiBoSo, its a game not a simulation...   
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: guigui404 on June 25, 2019, 08:58:12 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 PMPhysics!

Impulse Resolution... Maybe UE4 sucks in this department? GPBikes isn't call of duty...

Name one racing game physics better than GPBikes? GP19 physics are not on par with PiBoSo, its a game not a simulation...   

iRacing
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 09:08:05 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 PMPhysics!

Impulse Resolution... Maybe UE4 sucks in this department? GPBikes isn't call of duty...

Name one racing game physics better than GPBikes? GP19 physics are not on par with PiBoSo, its a game not a simulation...   

You are not set to what the default physics(NVidia PhysicsX) Epic provides for you in the UE4 engine, it's just a base to work from and adjust to your needs, if indeed you even want to use the PhysicsX system at all, it's not compulsory and something which I doubt Piboso would want to use given he's already coded his own dedicated physics code.

Piboso could integrate his own current physics engine code into whatever he wanted to create within the UE4 SDK, it's not a problem. :)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 25, 2019, 09:17:01 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 PMPhysics!

Impulse Resolution... Maybe UE4 sucks in this department? GPBikes isn't call of duty...
   

UE4 has the capability of extremely good physics, as demonstrated in sims like assetto corsa, which is highly regarded as one of the best, of both physics and graphics.
It is also well known to have very good collision models, and adaptive physics (Ie terrain changes etc).

Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 08:51:57 PMName one racing game physics better than GPBikes? GP19 physics are not on par with PiBoSo, its a game not a simulation...   


If you're going for general racing sims, I'd say something like RF2, AC, and Automobilista for physics.

If I had to compare GPB's current physics to any Car racing Sim atm, I would choose iRacing.
It is in general a very good representation, but there are some tyre related issues, and unsavable slides, that prevent it from going next level. Hell that could even be dragged up into graphics as well, as iRacing, although fairly good looking (like GPB) has an engine from NR2003, and its beginning to show, again like GPB.

In terms of bike games, there really aren't many on the market physics wise, however, I would say that the old TT Superbikes games from jester felt really good, and simluated possibly the best racing event the world has ever seen, as well as a tonne of awesome road races, and I still play this game series on a PS2 Emulator, Love it.
Possibly GP500 could fit here as well, although I must confess I've never played it, due to not being able to have it working on Windows 10.

The 'Un-Official' Daddy Of Motorcycle Sims:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QxN6ZK4r/the-king-of-motorcycle-sims.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Side note: If anyone knows any links or fixes for Win 10 GP500, please can you share them with me, even if its in a PM, as I really want to try it.

Return to Topic:

The Jester TT Superbike games had some of the best physics around, certainly some of the smoothest, most real feeling physics I've felt, where the rider seemed to actually have some input, and the bikes didn't seem like they weighed nothing, but still had decently quick steering.

Granted, the physics felt a little 'floaty' at some points, however it was very predictable, and satisfying to use, with decent elevation registry, and bump registry too.

GPB's physics aren't too far off, however the 'beta 15 front enders' are beginning to make the sim very difficult and unpredictable to use, and regardless of what engine, development path, or marketing pib, or anyone else suggests, sorting the front end out should be the ABSOLUTE NUMBER ONE PRIORITY FOR THE 'WHATS NEXT', as in a beta 16 release needs to fix this.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 09:33:25 PM
Apologies..... A quick off-topic here:

@Myst1cPrun3: Are you sure the front end issue is a core GPBikes physics issue?

It could well be down to the mod-bikes physics/geom files/settings which are the modders responsibility not Piboso's; as I understand, many of the mod bikes have still not been properly updated by the relevant mod teams for the latest GPBikes beta release, although I understand they are still rideable in sim?
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 25, 2019, 09:44:29 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 09:33:25 PMApologies..... A quick off-topic here:

@Myst1cPrun3: Are you sure the front end issue is a core GPBikes physics issue?

It could well be down to the mod-bikes physics/geom files/settings which are the modders responsibility not Piboso's; as I understand, many of the mod bikes have still not been properly updated by the relevant mod teams for the latest GPBikes beta release, although I understand they are still rideable in sim?


Off topic Reply:

Happens on the stock 2017 M2 at Victoria.

Pretty much highlights a core GPB issue to me considering its Pibs content ;)
It can be especially noticeable in the 'Not at all' MG Hairpin.

Happens a load on the new Mugello, front just goes, without any warning.

You can ride around it a little, but it seems that if its going to go, it just goes, no matter what you change the next lap. Could probably be nulled by setup changes, but its not obvious enough as to whats wrong to try and dial it out if that makes sense.

Some bikes perform better in this regard, and actually feel really good, the WSBK 2017 pack, and the WSSP 2018 pack are among the best.
While I find that the SuperStock 2014 bikes, and the M2 bike is among the worst for it. (The 2017 M2 is a little better compared to the 2019 Mod but still not ideal)

If I had to guess, I'd say its related to tyre pressures/temps, and a little bit of how soft the suspension spring is. Seems reduced with harder springs, and less pressure in the tyres, but still.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 11:32:29 PM
Mystic- GP500 runs perfect in WINE in Linux, (that is an option)

I guess I'm lost? If Physics are the most important thing about GPBikes and PiBoSo is coding his own engine (physics code) then the only real advantage to using a different engine would be for graphics? No? In that case we are back at the beginning of what out weighs the other.

So suggesting UE4 would be for graphics? And how would using say Havok or PhysX be better suited than PiBoSos own physics code?

IMO it would cause even more delay and frustration for PiBoSo.

Physic translation from reality to virtual may not always reflect in a positive manner due to input, hence the ultimate challenge of balance. Meaning if physics are written properly they may make the sim unplayable without a proper controller, the missing link.. So IMO there are bigger fish to fry in this matter than just a facelift to stay relevant....

PiBoSo said it himself that his models are not up to his standards as is! I fell through the ground on KRP yesterday, lol...

The biggest disagreement I have come across over the years is handling, I love the handling in MotoGP URT 1. It feels like a remote controlled motorcycle, i love it! Best physics ever! Real? not even close! So we as sim/gamers are the input of what feels right or wrong. Maybe if someone developed the perfect translation on motorcycle physics without argument we would still say its wrong?                     
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 26, 2019, 06:04:44 AM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 11:32:29 PMMystic- GP500 runs perfect in WINE in Linux, (that is an option)


Thanks I'll look into it. :)

Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 11:32:29 PMI guess I'm lost? If Physics are the most important thing about GPBikes and PiBoSo is coding his own engine (physics code) then the only real advantage to using a different engine would be for graphics? No? In that case we are back at the beginning of what out weighs the other.
               

This to me is the entire issue. What outweighs the other, and for me, the answer is neither. BOTH, are as important as each other, as together both make a complete package.
At the minute, the physics are, for the most part, in GPB very good, and way ahead of the sim graphically. This becomes an issue as when a potential customers look on YouTube at the Sim, they don't feel the physics, they see a 10+ year old engine running dated graphics.
Bringing the the graphics up to the level of the physics should be a priority, as this will improve the overall feel of the sim, (to me at least), and hopefully attract new GP Bikers.


Quote from: WALKEN on June 25, 2019, 11:32:29 PMSo suggesting UE4 would be for graphics? And how would using say Havok or PhysX be better suited than PiBoSos own physics code?

IMO it would cause even more delay and frustration for PiBoSo.
               

From what I can gather you don't have to use any of those, and can utilise your own physics coding/engine.

Maybe a delay initially, but the tools are readily available for UE4 for pib to use, and because of its popularity it would be easy to ask somewhere for support should he have an issue, rather than have to figure it out himself, meaning less glitches, and less development time for new features/updates.


Physics reflecting the real world 100% isn't always the best idea, I know for me I would get more from an experience using something that feels natural to use, and not necessarily 100% realistic.
I remember a dev saying that you can put all the real world values in, you can have a 100% accurate vehicle in a sim, and it still won't handle how it is in the real world, due to one thing or another, and that a certain degree of compromise/adaptation is needed.
Should imagine Pibs GPB is very similar.




Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 26, 2019, 07:46:42 AM
+1 on that Myst1cPrun3

With reference to what Walken was saying about sim realism - I'd say that of course dev's can only simulate the reaction of the bike model to the data input in any given situation, which hopefully will be real-life data to get a realistic response to any inputs either via the controller or the environmental model inputs via the track model and even inputs from possible weather model conditions too. The fact that this doesn't always lead to a realistic response indicates that something is missing in the physics model or even environment model inputs.
But the visuals in a simulation are very important for things like speed cues and all sorts of various other cues that the human brain can pick-up on that poor graphics are unable to provide....
The fact that Piboso's physics model does actually give the user a lot of good bike model reaction that the human brain can interpret to react with is a credit to Piboso's talent as a programmer, but of course there is the obvious things that a simulator on a PC screen can never simulate, like the G-forces and feedback of all the subtle vibrations and feeling you get from actually riding a bike in real-life, they can only be cleverly substituted via onscreen movements and other graphical cues via the screen that the human brain can then pick-up on and translate into the required actions to control the simulated bike model on screen. Again, this is why the visual fidelity of a simulator is SO important as well as the simulated physics and environment model.
Those that are saying that it's only the physics that are more important than the visuals want to try running GPBikes at 648 X 480 Rez on their monitor and they will soon realise just how important the quality of visuals are to being able to pick-up all those subtle visual cues that you'll lose with such a low quality rez screen. I think DD was more or less pointing out the same sort of thing when pushing for the better visual qualities of UE4.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 26, 2019, 08:51:48 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 26, 2019, 07:46:42 AMTry running GPBikes at 648 X 480 Rez on their monitor


I'm going to try that later for a bit of a laff will post screenshot of my results 😂
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 26, 2019, 08:53:54 AM
OUCH!!!

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Aernouts2 on June 26, 2019, 02:12:13 PM
Ok my 2 (maybe 3) cents here.
I know i am not a wel known (accepted) member on this forum but thats ok to me.

1.
I read a lot of stuff (info) about Piboso should use Ureal engine... i reckon thats NOT gonna happen.
He has coded his own engine from the ground up he is never gonna move to Unreal engine.. i understand that if i was him.. well i am with Piboso.  (that means no money income for a long time).

2.
GPBikes started developing, and this is my guess in 2002/2003 because if i remember right in first demo's bike models were from the 2004 season ? (maybe i am wrong)
So its showing its age for sure.. Is it important ? yes and no something needs to happen IMO but for me it can wait a bit more...

To make sure this game will be a successor .. yes its time time to upgrade when Piboso has some spare time on his hands.

3.
I could live with some outdated graphics if the game had great AI's
Because the game allready has (decent) Physics, it's modable, if i remember rigth there is online and LAN play (which seems to be outdated but it should be in every game).

I used to create mods for MotoGP 2 ( i released several longgg time ago) and to be able to create a complete MotoGP or SBK mod with a full starting grid (AI's
which you are able to play Online and Offline is something which should be available for a game like this.

BTW.
That does not mean i am gonna make mods again in near future (gettingolder and not much spare time)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Blackheart on June 26, 2019, 02:55:26 PM
GPB graphics is similar at Rfactor 1 (my first and favourite sim for years) but who in 2019 still play to rfactor 1?

I remember at new users here than this year will be released BSE... If GP Bikes will not change engine, it will be difficult (or impossible) to survive.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Aernouts2 on June 26, 2019, 03:17:47 PM
Yeah for sure thats true.

But upgrading to Unreal engine is not gonna happen, how on earth would Piboso do that (its a 1 man's band right ?)
Its probably more easy to update his own engine a bit.  ;)

And then again a bike racing (simulator) with no AI ? is IMO not a bestseller aswell.

If this game back in the early days was realeased with competitive AI's which Piboso has talent enough for.

I dunno i would have bought it for sure.. personaly i dont have time to go through all this hassle to get a online game going on...
and once your connected there is lag, disconnections,  people crashing into you pfff enough of that.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 26, 2019, 03:41:34 PM
I think if Piboso could impliment the trainer more it would be as good as AI if we share trainers even better than Ai

For me GPB still holds up by is physics and controller input and adjustment AND VR to boot!!!

UE4 can do a lot more than just graphics btw

Maybe if GPB was started on UE4 as a side project and not as the main project it might work one day and not be a stress point

DD
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Blackheart on June 26, 2019, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Aernouts2 on June 26, 2019, 03:17:47 PMon earth would Piboso do that (its a 1 man's band right ?)

Im quite sure than also BSE is created by 1-2 guys...
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: guigui404 on June 26, 2019, 04:43:50 PM
Quote from: Blackheart on June 26, 2019, 03:51:31 PM
Quote from: Aernouts2 on June 26, 2019, 03:17:47 PMon earth would Piboso do that (its a 1 man's band right ?)

Im quite sure than also BSE is created by 1-2 guys...
I'm quite sure than PiBoSo isn't alone
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 26, 2019, 05:52:28 PM
Quote from: Aernouts2 on June 26, 2019, 02:12:13 PMOk my 2 (maybe 3) cents here.
I know i am not a wel known (accepted) member on this forum but thats ok to me.

1.
I read a lot of stuff (info) about Piboso should use Ureal engine... i reckon thats NOT gonna happen.
He has coded his own engine from the ground up he is never gonna move to Unreal engine.. i understand that if i was him.. well i am with Piboso.  (that means no money income for a long time).

2.
GPBikes started developing, and this is my guess in 2002/2003 because if i remember right in first demo's bike models were from the 2004 season ? (maybe i am wrong)
So its showing its age for sure.. Is it important ? yes and no something needs to happen IMO but for me it can wait a bit more...

To make sure this game will be a successor .. yes its time time to upgrade when Piboso has some spare time on his hands.

3.
I could live with some outdated graphics if the game had great AI's
Because the game allready has (decent) Physics, it's modable, if i remember rigth there is online and LAN play (which seems to be outdated but it should be in every game).

I used to create mods for MotoGP 2 ( i released several longgg time ago) and to be able to create a complete MotoGP or SBK mod with a full starting grid (AI's
which you are able to play Online and Offline is something which should be available for a game like this.

BTW.
That does not mean i am gonna make mods again in near future (gettingolder and not much spare time)


I remember your website, if your the same Aernouts? I played the holy hell out of Gp1 and 2.

I also agree about no point in changing engines, waste of time at this point and to much time vested in his own engine to switch now. Makes zero sense. IMO once PiBoSo irons out the bugs that are important to him then everything else will come there after.   
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: PiBoSo on June 26, 2019, 07:59:52 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 26, 2019, 05:52:28 PMI also agree about no point in changing engines, waste of time at this point and to much time vested in his own engine to switch now. Makes zero sense.

Agreed.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 26, 2019, 08:15:27 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on June 26, 2019, 07:59:52 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 26, 2019, 05:52:28 PMI also agree about no point in changing engines, waste of time at this point and to much time vested in his own engine to switch now. Makes zero sense.

Agreed.

Guess that answers that question then XD. Serious question though pib, do you have like a roadmap aside from steam releases?

It'd be interesting to see something like:

Priorities (Next Beta/Version):

etc


Hopefuls (try for next version but not too big of a deal if missed):

etc


Dreams (Future ideas, development not started):

etc
Perhaps with estimated dates, or ideal months of completion

I'd be curious to see just what is going to come and what you hope to achieve either this quatre/year, and would help stem these 5 pages of random suggestions, when really a concrete answer is desired.[/list][/list]
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 26, 2019, 08:30:45 PM
I said I'd do it so I did:

640x480 (Stretched)

(https://i.postimg.cc/x1MtDjtS/Second-Life-Screenshot-2019-06-26-21-23-21-64.png) (https://postimg.cc/TK2rn6zk)

VS

Same screenshot but 1920x1080 (native)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmD78QvB/Second-Life-Screenshot-2019-06-26-21-24-05-58.png) (https://postimg.cc/t1Qn2GwQ)

GPB Can go higher but my monitor Can't, and very few can so there wasn't much point as it'd get down-scaled and lose the effect.

Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Vini on June 26, 2019, 10:15:29 PM
Moving to a different engine is unrealistic and unnecessary as it would stall all development of all sims for months if not for years, depending on how many tricky bugs emerge.
Being able to run GPB on extremely low-end system with decent framerates is a major plus point of the sim.
While all those new engines look nice and shiny, if you consider the "performance-to-graphics ratio" they are all unoptimized horseshit compared to game engines we had 10+ years ago.
Bottom line, PiBoSo risks losing more players through higher system requirements than he can possible make through updated graphics alone.
Keep in mind that all this is thinking positively! Switching the engine basically means starting development from sratch. I think most people here are drastically underestimating what this truely means in terms of coding work.

That said, it would sure be interesting to know a bit more of PiBoSo's concrete development plans for the future.
From what I can tell, physics (rightly) seem to be the priority, so the downhill/uphill bug is hopefully on top of that list as the last standing, major physics bug.

It's vicous cycle: no money -> no ads & development -> no players -> no money......
I think getting GPB on steam is the best chance of breaking out of it.
Anyway, I am neither a coder nor a businessman so this is yet another opinion for PiBoSo to consider.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Nicotine on June 27, 2019, 05:59:41 AM
Come on PiBoSo, do something.......27 Euro for Schwaben and Victoria Circuit is not funny
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: PiBoSo on June 27, 2019, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: Nicotine on June 27, 2019, 05:59:41 AMCome on PiBoSo, do something.......27 Euro for Schwaben and Victoria Circuit is not funny

https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6341.msg98201#msg98201
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 27, 2019, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 05:46:43 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 25, 2019, 06:27:59 AMI think he's already answered this a while ago: switching to a different game engine would be a massive project.
I also think he's already said he's using C, not C++.

Ah. But he didn't say why?
Right, he didn't say why in details, but why would he ?
He knows most of his own code inside-out, if he says it would be a massive project, that's good enough for me.

The problem with GPB is that it took way too long: in a span of time that big from now, maybe UE will be dead, or maybe we'll have UE13 and Unity 9, or Trinity 1.0 with new, incredible graphical features. And the UE4-based GPB supposed to solve all the problems will be outdated again.

The only way a new engine could be envisaged would be to declare GPB completed (or dead, depending on how you look at it) and start a GPB 2 almost from scratch. That's a hell of a call to make when you're unsure of the benefits.

Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 05:46:43 PMI mean why stick to using a horse and cart when you can be chauffeured in a limousine or driving a super-car? ;)
All that from the guy that still lives in the 70's with 2 strokes, no electronics and world-class riders smoking weed on the grid right before the start.
Who knows, maybe PiBoSo likes to code his own ambient occlusion just they way you like to do yor own manual "traction control".
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: DidietXFuera on June 27, 2019, 03:24:20 PM
I personally want PiBoSo to make improvements to some bugs in GP-Bikes. Then, optimize the existing game engine, such as making it easy to do mods for modder and improve the quality of the graphics.

I understand that it might be difficult to develop 4 games at a time, but PiBoSo must prioritize games with the most players (it might be GP-Bikes).
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 27, 2019, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 27, 2019, 02:36:49 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 05:46:43 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 25, 2019, 06:27:59 AMI think he's already answered this a while ago: switching to a different game engine would be a massive project.
I also think he's already said he's using C, not C++.

Ah. But he didn't say why?
Right, he didn't say why in details, but why would he ?
He knows most of his own code inside-out, if he says it would be a massive project, that's good enough for me.

The problem with GPB is that it took way too long: in a span of time that big from now, maybe UE will be dead, or maybe we'll have UE13 and Unity 9, or Trinity 1.0 with new, incredible graphical features. And the UE4-based GPB supposed to solve all the problems will be outdated again.

The only way a new engine could be envisaged would be to declare GPB completed (or dead, depending on how you look at it) and start a GPB 2 almost from scratch. That's a hell of a call to make when you're unsure of the benefits.

Quote from: Hawk on June 25, 2019, 05:46:43 PMI mean why stick to using a horse and cart when you can be chauffeured in a limousine or driving a super-car? ;)
All that from the guy that still lives in the 70's with 2 strokes, no electronics and world-class riders smoking weed on the grid right before the start.
Who knows, maybe PiBoSo likes to code his own ambient occlusion just they way you like to do yor own manual "traction control".


Your sounding like an EU remain supporter Max..... Happy with the status quo with no vision and no balls to take the risks required to move into a bigger & better future. :P  ;)


Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 27, 2019, 07:01:22 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 27, 2019, 06:46:11 PMYour sounding like an EU remain supporter Max..... Happy with the status quo with no vision and no balls to take the risks required to move into a bigger & better future. :P  ;)


Oh not this again.. XD

Although I would gladly support GP Bikes 2, (Or a re-brand called Superbikes if pib would focus on Superbikes instead of Grand Prix, which I'd like to see)


Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: HornetMaX on June 28, 2019, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 27, 2019, 06:46:11 PMYour sounding like an EU remain supporter Max..... Happy with the status quo with no vision and no balls to take the risks required to move into a bigger & better future. :P  ;)
Of course. All the vision (and the balls) are a monopole of the likes of you ... can't fight.
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 28, 2019, 12:20:16 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 28, 2019, 11:26:11 AM
Quote from: Hawk on June 27, 2019, 06:46:11 PMYour sounding like an EU remain supporter Max..... Happy with the status quo with no vision and no balls to take the risks required to move into a bigger & better future. :P  ;)
Of course. All the vision (and the balls) are a monopoly of the likes of you ... can't fight.

 ???
Well, we reap what we sow Max......   ;)
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: WALKEN on June 28, 2019, 08:25:28 PM
Progressive thinking is great and all but in most cases with most things we haven't exhausted the prior hence flavor of the week. In fact a lot of things don't even compare to earlier incarnations. 

Video gaming has become as stale as month old bread, but hey at least they look pretty being soulless....

When you build things from the ground up there is a satisfaction and deeper knowledge in the end oppose to relying on pre-built items that you stick in place and don't understand the inter workings... Take music for instance, most progressive artist today don't even know how to place a mic let alone even play an instrument... Everything is plug and play and in the end you get more of the same with no personality because the oddities come from the individual not a simulated program.

I enjoy PiBoSo's work because of the oddity of it or integrity, keeps me coming back....         
Title: Re: So, what's next?
Post by: Hawk on June 28, 2019, 11:15:38 PM
Quote from: WALKEN on June 28, 2019, 08:25:28 PMProgressive thinking is great and all but in most cases with most things we haven't exhausted the prior hence flavor of the week. In fact a lot of things don't even compare to earlier incarnations. 

Video gaming has become as stale as month old bread, but hey at least they look pretty being soulless....

When you build things from the ground up there is a satisfaction and deeper knowledge in the end oppose to relying on pre-built items that you stick in place and don't understand the inter workings... Take music for instance, most progressive artist today don't even know how to place a mic let alone even play an instrument... Everything is plug and play and in the end you get more of the same with no personality because the oddities come from the individual not a simulated program.

I enjoy PiBoSo's work because of the oddity of it or integrity, keeps me coming back....         

Walken. I think your probably seeing the effects on the game industry of the big corporate sponsors getting involved in sponsoring game dev-houses/teams.....
Developers that have the financial resources to develop their own visions of a modern AAA game, especially a game with genuine differences in the way games are played these days, are very few and far between. Hence it's all a game of playing it relatively safe with the same old stuff, sequal after sequal of the same old games, etc, etc..... There is just no breeding ground anymore for developers with a vision or indeed the environment to make their vision a reality....

These corporates don't care about games or their quality, they only care about how much money they will make from a game release..... Just look who's behind all the game consoles.... Rings a bell doesn't it. Yet time and again people will be suckered into buying a game console so these corporates have you exactly where they want you so they can have that monopoly to make money from you...... It's sad to see so many people so easily taken in by these people. :(