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General => Custom hardware => Topic started by: doohan on November 21, 2019, 09:53:09 PM

Title: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 21, 2019, 09:53:09 PM
Hello, world.
There is any force feedback in GP bikes. Topics and informations about.
Thank you all.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Chris_Beeves on November 21, 2019, 09:57:49 PM
There is. What controller are you using?
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 05:58:50 PM
You can have ffb if you use a steering wheel.

Alternatively, if you use a gamepad, You can Download the MaxHUD plugin, and there is a vibration option in there.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 22, 2019, 06:18:50 PM
I use gamepad or arduino or Logitech G25 wheel.I am interested in arduino output (as a value ?).
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 22, 2019, 06:34:03 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 05:58:50 PMYou can have ffb if you use a steering wheel.

Alternatively, if you use a gamepad, You can Download the MaxHUD plugin, and there is a vibration option in there.

What events ( in avatar bike) triggering vibrations in MaxHUD plugin?
What kind of output signal guides FFB in steering wheel?
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 06:54:39 PM
You can tune the max hud vibration to trigger at pretty much anything from my testing.

Wheel slides and suspension travel/behaviour are big things from my testing, although I prefer not to use it, as it changes from bike to bike.

(I use xbox one gamepad in GP Bikes but no feedback aside from visual/audio)

As for steering wheels, there are various steering modes for this, and each one changes the style of feedback. I read that steering mode 2 (changed in files) is much more realistic, and close to how a motorbike feels, but I just can't get my head around using a wheel and pedals for a motorbike controller so don't use it.

As a result someone else may be able to go more into detail than me on that
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 22, 2019, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 06:54:39 PMYou can tune the max hud vibration to trigger at pretty much anything from my testing.

Wheel slides and suspension travel/behaviour are big things from my testing, although I prefer not to use it, as it changes from bike to bike.

(I use xbox one gamepad in GP Bikes but no feedback aside from visual/audio)

As for steering wheels, there are various steering modes for this, and each one changes the style of feedback. I read that steering mode 2 (changed in files) is much more realistic, and close to how a motorbike feels, but I just can't get my head around using a wheel and pedals for a motorbike controller so don't use it.

As a result someone else may be able to go more into detail than me on that
Thank you very much.
Can you propose to me any specific topic for maxHUD ?
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 22, 2019, 07:29:02 PM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 21, 2019, 09:57:49 PMThere is. What controller are you using?

I use gamepad or Arduino or Logitech G25 wheel.I am interested in Arduino output (as a value ?).
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 08:04:11 PM
https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=79.0

there is a tonne of info, and a download link on this thread. If its not there its probably not anywhere
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Chris_Beeves on November 22, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 07:29:02 PM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 21, 2019, 09:57:49 PMThere is. What controller are you using?

I use gamepad or Arduino or Logitech G25 wheel.I am interested in Arduino output (as a value ?).

What Arduino output are you interested in? Telemetry or ffb?

G25 works great and is pretty much plug n' play depending on how you want to use it.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 22, 2019, 09:35:01 PM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 22, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 07:29:02 PM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 21, 2019, 09:57:49 PMThere is. What controller are you using?

I use gamepad or Arduino or Logitech G25 wheel.I am interested in Arduino output (as a value ?).

What Arduino output are you interested in? Telemetry or ffb?

G25 works great and is pretty much plug n' play depending on how you want to use it.
I am interested in telemetry (speed) and ffb .As values in Arduino.Trying to guide my own ffb system.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 09:35:01 PMI am interested in telemetry (speed) and ffb .As values in Arduino.Trying to guide my own ffb system.

Sounds interesting!
Getting both telemetry data and ffb to one unit will require quite some programming in both windows and Arduino. What do you want to build?
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 23, 2019, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 09:35:01 PMI am interested in telemetry (speed) and ffb .As values in Arduino.Trying to guide my own ffb system.

Sounds interesting!
Getting both telemetry data and ffb to one unit will require quite some programming in both windows and Arduino. What do you want to build?

A steering driving system
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 11:23:31 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 23, 2019, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 09:35:01 PMI am interested in telemetry (speed) and ffb .As values in Arduino.Trying to guide my own ffb system.

Sounds interesting!
Getting both telemetry data and ffb to one unit will require quite some programming in both windows and Arduino. What do you want to build?

A steering driving system

But using your G25 is not an option? What more functions do you want?

Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 23, 2019, 11:34:44 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 11:23:31 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 23, 2019, 10:13:08 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 23, 2019, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: doohan on November 22, 2019, 09:35:01 PMI am interested in telemetry (speed) and ffb .As values in Arduino.Trying to guide my own ffb system.

Sounds interesting!
Getting both telemetry data and ffb to one unit will require quite some programming in both windows and Arduino. What do you want to build?
Not the right feeling + not enough torque.

A steering driving system

But using your G25 is not an option? What more functions do you want?


Not the right feeling + not enough torque.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 23, 2019, 07:47:43 PM
You can change the feeling of the g25 of a force feedback wheel in the files.

The torque would be less of an issue in a different mode I imagine
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 23, 2019, 11:25:13 PM
Torque is a huge issue. Has anybody made a DIY ffb steering wheel before?
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 24, 2019, 04:15:00 AM
A DIY ffb steering wheel?
I should imagine yes someone has.

Made specifically for GP bikes I doubt it.

From my, thousands of hours using wheels and car racing sims, the most common issues for 'entry/ mid level ffb wheels' (up to fanatec stuff) isn't torque it's actually detail.IE, not the power of the jolts over the bumps, but the size of the bumps it registers.

Think of it like a graph.
A straight line on the x axis gives time, and y axis is amount of force.

A high torque wheel would more than likely (unless its direct drive and you've got over a thousand euros to play with) more than likely give one big spike over a large bump, then go straight to flat.

A high detailed wheel, with a lower max torque, may not hit as high of a spike (the bump will still be there but lessened) but it will more than likely have more minor things to the point its never actually flat.

Ie feeling more 'road noise', and suspension travel and tyre slip. All things a high torque non direct drive wheel misses.

Most consumer grade wheels, once setup right, would be fine for GP bikes,and literally any other car sim or there, for a base user.

The non Direct drive fanatec kit is amazing for this. Good bang for buck etc.

But my old g920, (same internals as a g25/g27) and my current tx base provides more than enough torque.

Honestly it's like a musical amplifier . More torque is like turning up the volume
Can distort the entire thing and make it 'sound' shit.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 24, 2019, 11:19:45 AM
"A DIY ffb steering wheel?
I should imagine yes someone has.

Made specifically for GP bikes I doubt it."

I accept it as a NO.
(I have seen a video of DD but I think he  rejected it as "incompetent")
In your question about torque.
GPbikes is an extraordinary simulator. That means that try to "simulate" real motorcycle RACING driving. As I have done thousands of hours of racing motorcycle driving, I hardly believe that I need to build a new steering wheel especialy for GPbikes.
I believe that one of the biggest problems for GPbikes to be stronger in the market is the lack of a real motorcycle game controller.So I was expecting a biger interest from "moderators".
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 24, 2019, 12:40:31 PM
You don't need to do anything.

A gamepad works fine, and with VR it's a very good experience.

That being said a handlebar system would be ideal, and dds systems are the closest we get currently to a commercial handlebar controller.

People have made their own, however these tend to go on existing ffb wheels, in place of a rim on a quick release. But there (aside from dds) is no commercial purchase option, if that's what you meant. There is a very limited market for it, as its only gp bikes really, as the milestone games are not really setup for anything other than a gamepad.

That being said, there are some 'homemade' options,

Try these links for ideas if you'd like.

https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6684.0

This is a mod to the universal hub that is attached to the fanatec gear.


Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 24, 2019, 05:09:25 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on November 24, 2019, 12:40:31 PMYou don't need to do anything.

A gamepad works fine, and with VR it's a very good experience.

That being said a handlebar system would be ideal, and dds systems are the closest we get currently to a commercial handlebar controller.

People have made their own, however these tend to go on existing ffb wheels, in place of a rim on a quick release. But there (aside from dds) is no commercial purchase option, if that's what you meant. There is a very limited market for it, as its only gp bikes really, as the milestone games are not really setup for anything other than a gamepad.

That being said, there are some 'homemade' options,

Try these links for ideas if you'd like.

https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6684.0

This is a mod to the universal hub that is attached to the fanatec gear.



"A gamepad works fine, and with VR it's a very good experience" ...."for me" is the right expression.

The two videos are out of reality (not even countersteering).
Does Chris stop his improvements after June?
My opinion is that there is a huge market for GPbikes with the right controller. Imagine an experienced motorcycle rider to try this game using a gamepad... is funny. Any experienced car driver has a lot of fun using an ffb driving wheel.
 
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 05:27:11 PM
IA Systems Has the HS3. It isn't force feedback but it is probably the closest to market controller for GP Bikes

The market (Motorcycle Sim racing) is just not big enough for a full scale company like Logitech or Fantec to make one
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 24, 2019, 06:24:26 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 05:27:11 PMIA Systems Has the HS3. It isn't force feedback but it is probably the closest to market controller for GP Bikes

The market (Motorcycle Sim racing) is just not big enough for a full scale company like Logitech or Fantec to make one
I think HS3 is a very good attempt that worths support.(Of course, there is an obvious need for improvement in movement reality).As I mention before I believe that the absence of a good controller has negative effects on the motorcycle game market. It is like trying to play darts with your eyes closed. There is no fun.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 06:45:12 PM
It is very difficult to simulate the riding of a bike with a controller.

You hardly move the handle bars when riding. Inputs are small to get large movements out of the bike (countersteering). This can be simulated with a force feedback wheel but it isn't realistic as the momentum of a motorcycle completely alters how this would feel Vs a real motorcycle.


It's not like with a car racing rig, it is just to difficult to fully simulate for an affordable price so it is unlikely for one to appear
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 24, 2019, 07:40:31 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 06:45:12 PMIt is very difficult to simulate the riding of a bike with a controller.

You hardly move the handle bars when riding. Inputs are small to get large movements out of the bike (countersteering). This can be simulated with a force feedback wheel but it isn't realistic as the momentum of a motorcycle completely alters how this would feel Vs a real motorcycle.


It's not like with a car racing rig, it is just to difficult to fully simulate for an affordable price so it is unlikely for one to appear
It is really very difficult, but don't worry about that, because this is exactly my expertise area. If I had a basic support from GP bikes developers I can create bespoke products.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 08:50:01 PM
The only person who knows about that is Piboso (or maybe Snappe)

None of the Moderators know about the workings of GPB. We just look after the Forum :D



https://www.gp-bikes.com/downloads/gpb_example.c

These are the Output Plugins so hopefully, this is of some use to you
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Chris_Beeves on November 24, 2019, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: doohan on November 24, 2019, 07:40:31 PMIt is really very difficult, but don't worry about that, because this is exactly my expertise area. If I had a basic support from GP bikes developers I can create bespoke products.

Have you built something like that before? I think you might need to be a bit more specific  with what you want to do if you want to catch the interest of Piboso (which in general doesn't seem like an easy thing to do ;) ). If it's basic, maybe you can get the needed support from the community?

Have you read anything about the plugin supplied? There is an example here: Gpb example (https://www.gp-bikes.com/downloads/gpb_example.c) . There is also a UDP function that can send data.
(Just noticed that matty wrote this, sorry :) )

I'm building a ffb device specifically for Gp-bikes, but not in a rush. The "proof-of-concept" prototype was based on a "driving force GT" and worked surprisingly well.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on November 24, 2019, 10:43:47 PM
To be honest, the way motorcycle games have been developed is around game-pad usage, and optimisations, and therefore, plugging in another Controller is not ideal for 99% of motorcycle games, (GP Bikes is the 'possible' exception) and as a result, it is really Ideal for most people, not just me. Not to mention space.. Which most people don't have for a dedicated Rig.

I don't quite know where you're reading in the thread, but Chris's last post on the topic was 19 Nov 2019, so no he's still going at it. I should expect the slow progress,m is because its perhaps just not a priority in his life.  (EDIT) Speak of the devil, replied at same time as me lol)

As well as this, creating a full controller is much more difficult for a motorcycle game, as the user has to be more involved, its not just turning a wheel, the body plays a huge role in actually controlling the machine.

I believe that it is physically Impossible to make a 100% accurate motorcycle simulation, even more so without literally thousands and thousands to spend after which you'll need a full machine to sit on and ride as well as accurate hydraulic motors and actuators to simulate the minute feelings and idiocies of a motorcycle.

The other main issue is that without some serious file editing, and utilising other steering modes. In GP Bikes, it seems to me that we as users don't actually control the handlebars to move the bike. We control the rider, or when running manual rider movement, control the legs pushing on the pegs, hence perhaps using handlebars will always seem a bit off in GP Bikes, until we can have separate axis for the handlebars and pegs. (Handlebar control rotating separately to foot-peg control inputs.)

The Bars on the fanatev video above will give a different, potentially 'more real' effect due to their angles and positioning on the universal hub.

As for the 'negative effects on the motorcycle game market', I think that the fact there quite simply are 3 motorcycle games to choose from to the mass public is a bigger issue. The Ride and MotoGP series, and more Recently the TT series, are the most accessible games, being out on most platforms, and have decent advertising campaigns, yet they leave a lot to be desired in all areas, such as handling, content, and sounds etc. The simple reason is that for every 5 motorcycle enthusiast, there are about 20 car enthusiasts, and then when you divide those numbers by the amount of people there who actually play video games.. It goes down to about 1 video gaming motorcycle enthusiast to 10-15 video-gaming car enthusiasts.

A dedicated controller wont help people if they don't play the games to begin with. Once a motorcycle sim/game hits the same highs as the car sim world, then I expect we'll see more hardware, but until then, people Like DD, who make the Excellent HS3, and likewise products are really Up against it, and most turn into failed enterprises, despite best efforts.

A compounded issue for this is the fact that to recoup the cost of RnD and manufacturing for a niche market, the product prices have to be high, making the entire thing even more expensive, and even less people purchase them.


(Thinking back to the thrust-master and Yamaha Controllers, yes those did exist, did you know? If not its because they were complete and total failures due to there being no market, even when Motorcycle gaming and racing was as popular as it ever was - Rossi 2000s Era -)



The last thing I would perhaps say, is that as most people are comfortable with a game-pad, the people that want a controller like this would do the research and build it themselves.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 24, 2019, 10:52:46 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on November 24, 2019, 08:50:01 PMThe only person who knows about that is Piboso (or maybe Snappe)

None of the Moderators know about the workings of GPB. We just look after the Forum :D



https://www.gp-bikes.com/downloads/gpb_example.c

These are the Output Plugins so hopefully, this is of some use to you

Thank you very much .
Unfortunately, I am not a developer but I hope that is a good start for my developers.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 25, 2019, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on November 24, 2019, 10:43:47 PMTo be honest, the way motorcycle games have been developed is around game-pad usage, and optimisations, and therefore, plugging in another Controller is not ideal for 99% of motorcycle games, (GP Bikes is the 'possible' exception) and as a result, it is really Ideal for most people, not just me. Not to mention space.. Which most people don't have for a dedicated Rig.

I don't quite know where you're reading in the thread, but Chris's last post on the topic was 19 Nov 2019, so no he's still going at it. I should expect the slow progress,m is because its perhaps just not a priority in his life.  (EDIT) Speak of the devil, replied at same time as me lol)

As well as this, creating a full controller is much more difficult for a motorcycle game, as the user has to be more involved, its not just turning a wheel, the body plays a huge role in actually controlling the machine.

I believe that it is physically Impossible to make a 100% accurate motorcycle simulation, even more so without literally thousands and thousands to spend after which you'll need a full machine to sit on and ride as well as accurate hydraulic motors and actuators to simulate the minute feelings and idiocies of a motorcycle.

The other main issue is that without some serious file editing, and utilising other steering modes. In GP Bikes, it seems to me that we as users don't actually control the handlebars to move the bike. We control the rider, or when running manual rider movement, control the legs pushing on the pegs, hence perhaps using handlebars will always seem a bit off in GP Bikes, until we can have separate axis for the handlebars and pegs. (Handlebar control rotating separately to foot-peg control inputs.)

The Bars on the fanatev video above will give a different, potentially 'more real' effect due to their angles and positioning on the universal hub.

As for the 'negative effects on the motorcycle game market', I think that the fact there quite simply are 3 motorcycle games to choose from to the mass public is a bigger issue. The Ride and MotoGP series, and more Recently the TT series, are the most accessible games, being out on most platforms, and have decent advertising campaigns, yet they leave a lot to be desired in all areas, such as handling, content, and sounds etc. The simple reason is that for every 5 motorcycle enthusiast, there are about 20 car enthusiasts, and then when you divide those numbers by the amount of people there who actually play video games.. It goes down to about 1 video gaming motorcycle enthusiast to 10-15 video-gaming car enthusiasts.

A dedicated controller wont help people if they don't play the games to begin with. Once a motorcycle sim/game hits the same highs as the car sim world, then I expect we'll see more hardware, but until then, people Like DD, who make the Excellent HS3, and likewise products are really Up against it, and most turn into failed enterprises, despite best efforts.

A compounded issue for this is the fact that to recoup the cost of RnD and manufacturing for a niche market, the product prices have to be high, making the entire thing even more expensive, and even less people purchase them.


(Thinking back to the thrust-master and Yamaha Controllers, yes those did exist, did you know? If not its because they were complete and total failures due to there being no market, even when Motorcycle gaming and racing was as popular as it ever was - Rossi 2000s Era -)



The last thing I would perhaps say is that as most people are comfortable with a game-pad, the people that want a controller like this would do the research and build it themselves.
"I believe that it is physically impossible to make a 100% accurate motorcycle simulation, "I agree.
"The Bars on the fanatev video above will give a different, potentially 'more real' effect due to their angles and positioning on the universal hub." The effort is different.
"for every 5 motorcycle enthusiast, there are about 20 car enthusiasts," I think the difference is bigger.
"A dedicated controller wont help people if they don't play the games to begin with."
I'll tell you about... my start. A friend of mine gave me a copied game in a disc. I run it and I try to drive it using (what else ) the keyboard. Ten minutes later I take it off and stick it to a box for storage. Three years later thinking about virtual driving for racing use I made my first "handlebar" hucking a joystick. Then I take the CD out of the box and start playing for hours and days and years experimenting on everything.The game named GP500 and the calendar was in 2000.
" thrust-master and Yamaha Controllers,"was total garbage.
Sorry for the limited english I wish to be more detailed soon.

Title: Re: FFB
Post by: doohan on November 25, 2019, 12:27:26 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on November 24, 2019, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: doohan on November 24, 2019, 07:40:31 PMIt is really very difficult, but don't worry about that, because this is exactly my expertise area. If I had a basic support from GP bikes developers I can create bespoke products.

Have you built something like that before? I think you might need to be a bit more specific  with what you want to do if you want to catch the interest of Piboso (which in general doesn't seem like an easy thing to do ;) ). If it's basic, maybe you can get the needed support from the community?

Have you read anything about the plugin supplied? There is an example here: Gpb example (https://www.gp-bikes.com/downloads/gpb_example.c) . There is also a UDP function that can send data.
(Just noticed that matty wrote this, sorry :) )

I'm building a ffb device specifically for Gp-bikes, but not in a rush. The "proof-of-concept" prototype was based on a "driving force GT" and worked surprisingly well.
You can not imagine how many, but none with ffb.I try to make a realistic ffb system that will give a lot of benefits to all of us me,piboso and the community. I am not a developer but I 'll manage it. Keep on the good work and I 'll be glad if I can help.
Title: Re: FFB
Post by: maggikk22 on March 04, 2020, 11:16:12 PM
https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8248.0 (https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8248.0)

Maybe I should not have created a new topic, and post here instead...
I think you may be interested in my tuned gamepad...