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General => Off Topic => Topic started by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 13, 2020, 09:56:00 PM

Title: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 13, 2020, 09:56:00 PM
So I came across this link that f1s new engine format could be a revival of ye olde 2 smokers with alternate fuels and so on, and apparently MotoGP have been looking at similar options.

I think this could be a step backwards, due to emissions and so on. I actually believe diesel would be a better alternative for Grand Prix, a more forward looking option. (No electricity as motoe exists)

But still here's the link, any thoughts. I know what @Hawk is going to say before he even replies,but still..  ;D  ;)

https://www.visordown.com/news/racing/motogp/could-motogp-return-two-stroke-engine-formula
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 07:50:48 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 13, 2020, 09:56:00 PMSo I came across this link that f1s new engine format could be a revival of ye olde 2 smokers with alternate fuels and so on, and apparently MotoGP have been looking at similar options.

I think this could be a step backwards, due to emissions and so on. I actually believe diesel would be a better alternative for Grand Prix, a more forward looking option. (No electricity as motoe exists)

But still here's the link, any thoughts. I know what @Hawk is going to say before he even replies,but still..  ;D  ;)

https://www.visordown.com/news/racing/motogp/could-motogp-return-two-stroke-engine-formula

Hallelujah!! Common sense starting to be realised.... Finally!! Hehe! :P  ;D  ;D  ;)

PS: Let's hope no electronic bike control aids are being considered as part of that project..... Let's get back to a true man & machine marriage and something to truly be proud of as a sport! ;D  8)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 14, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
Rumour is that if they go ahead they will be fueled by synthetic fuel, and have exhaust gas treatments so there would be no smoke, very little smell, and the likelihood is it'll sound different too.

So it's not entirely what you think.

They will be having electronic aids. That's a given
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 11:33:29 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 14, 2020, 10:22:16 AMRumour is that if they go ahead they will be fueled by synthetic fuel, and have exhaust gas treatments so there would be no smoke, very little smell, and the likelihood is it'll sound different too.

So it's not entirely what you think.

They will be having electronic aids. That's a given

Why would they have electronic rider aids on a genuine race-bike that only brings a sport into disrepute?

Why do you think it's a given decision? There was no mention of that in the article.

Is there some kind of twisted thinking that you need rider aid electronics to make motorcycle racing safe or what going on here? Lol!

This would be the chance to bring Motorcycle racing back as a genuine sport and not just a ridiculous technological facade..... Even the riders have said they would rather ride genuine race-bikes rather than have electronics control a lot of the ride for them..... They want that excitement back.... So where's your problem?
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: doubledragoncc on January 14, 2020, 12:14:16 PM
I think they will have to have fuel injection so electronic engine management is a given for emission control but not necassarilly for rider aids?

DD

 
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 14, 2020, 12:51:01 PM
They aren't going to take away rider aids.

Plain and simple.

Why introduce something that's more unsafe, slower, and reduce the competitiveness of the field, increasing gaps between machines.

Again look at the racing before rider aids, look at it after.

After is a notable improvement. And it's represented in the viewer numbers and ratings.

Any other view simply is skewed by a misguided notion that the past was better. When in fact, every single statistic piece of information, and review  says other wise.


As for the actual point of this thread, it's the engine. And the tech in them particularly.

Not the rest of the bikes or the current state of gp racing.
There's a thread for that as well as several other topics that have been dragged off their subject, so please use that, or make a new one.


As for he engines themselves, I don't think will be even comparable to older 2 strokes.

Petrol and Castrol r is not going to be used for emmisions reasons, specialist synthetic hydrogen biofuel and exhaust treatments to reduce emmisions I believe will substitute instead as a 2 in 1.

The other thing is, due to the nature of the tech required and the fuel, the engines will sound different to the traditional 2 strokes, and certainly smell different. I would hazard a guess that the old dirty blue smoke is going to be gone as well as no emmisions department wants that.

The only thing the new engines would have in common is the fact they have a name, and they make their power on 2 strokes instead of 4

Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 03:45:03 PM
@Myst1cPrun3:
Your very good at making statements without any real facts.... Something your very quick to accuse others of doing.... Pretty hypocritical don't you think? But oh, wait! That'll be your version of common sense kicking in won't it, I do apologise! Lol! Hehe! ;D  ;)

The truth is we'll just have to wait and see what this project brings.... As I've stated above, I'm hoping it will be a chance to get the sport back to being a true sport and not a technological facade. :P
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: matty0l215 on January 14, 2020, 04:30:59 PM
As with all of the "bring back 2 stroke" threads

Oh dear God, Please, No. 😁
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 08:32:03 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on January 14, 2020, 04:30:59 PMAs with all of the "bring back 2 stroke" threads

Oh dear God, Please, No. 😁

They'll be coming back on the public roads too Matty..... We're coming back to getch-yaz all! I must've died and gone to heaven!! Hahaha! ;D  ;D
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Manu on January 15, 2020, 08:46:15 AM
Quote from: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 11:33:29 AMIs there some kind of twisted thinking that you need rider aid electronics to make motorcycle racing safe or what going on here? Lol!


Maybe you don't know, but traction control is not a safety element.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 09:34:08 AM
Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 08:46:15 AM
Quote from: Hawk on January 14, 2020, 11:33:29 AMIs there some kind of twisted thinking that you need rider aid electronics to make motorcycle racing safe or what going on here? Lol!


Maybe you don't know, but traction control is not a safety element.


I'm sure many would dispute that Manu, depending on their point of view about TC.

But if TC isn't considered a safety element then there is no good reason in this modern safety obsessed era that TC couldn't be dropped so that the riders have to go back to using their throttle hand skills again is there?
It would probably mean big changes in engine unit power levels too but at least it would bring back that genuine rider machine marriage which is the way it should be in competitive Motorsports. ;)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Manu on January 15, 2020, 09:55:29 AM
Maybe someone may think that the TC or AW are safety elements but the reality is different. They are electronic aids for the rider. In the modern era of motogp engine power is such that it would be impossible to drive the bike. These aids were designed to control all that power in some way and not destroy the tires in the first lap.

So what would be the point of riding a bike that cannot be driven?
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AM
I think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Well said Docfumi! Nice to see someone else here in the forum who also has the guts to voice their honest opinion on the technological state of MotoGP today.... Well said mate! ;) 8)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 01:13:21 PM
Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 09:55:29 AMMaybe someone may think that the TC or AW are safety elements but the reality is different. They are electronic aids for the rider. In the modern era of motogp engine power is such that it would be impossible to drive the bike. These aids were designed to control all that power in some way and not destroy the tires in the first lap.

So what would be the point of riding a bike that cannot be driven?

Manu. Back in the days of GP500, riders were already beginning to say that the bikes were getting to their maximum handling power for a rider, some including Rossi even went to the extent of having the BHP reduced on their GP500 bikes cause they could handle and ride faster without the extra power available.
My point being Manu, competitive racing isn't all about power and speed at all costs, and the sport shouldn't take the view that because the manufacturers can and want to increase the power of the bikes that they should have to implement riders aids so that the riders can handle that extra power. They should talk to the riders and ask them what power they can handle without using TC or AW and make that level of power the maximum power a GP bike can have.
The argument that we have to have TC or AW simply cause the present power output of the current MotoGP bikes is un-ridable without them is a nonsense argument.... This is where they have let the manufacturers have too much say in where MotoGP is going in the future. Dorna or FIM should've set a maximum relatively safe limit on power that the riders feel they are able to handle without electronic aids and made a ruling so that the manufacturers had to stick to that power as a maximum level for the category involved.

There is no reason for rider aids.... It just brings the sport into disrepute when competitors of any sport are using aids to help their performances...

As far as I'm concerned, using any electronic aids is just as bad as someone playing a game-competition over the internet and using an aim-bot to aid their ability to win. The point being is that it's cheating the whole point of what sport is all about, which is for a person to pitch his/her natural abilities against another competitors natural abilities; this is where the respect comes from for champions in sports, the fact that people/fans/spectators can truly admire and wonder at their abilities to do what they do to win. How can fans truly respect a sportsman's abilities when they are using electronic competitor aids.

I just cannot understand why anyone would think it's okay to use electronic competitor aids in sports.... It's a nonsense and just SO wrong and needs to stop in my opinion.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Manu on January 15, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
So to be fair all riders should ride the same bike. Otherwise, applying your rationing we face a scam. In motogp the best rider does not win, the best machine-rider combination wins. Therefore it does not compete on equal terms. On paper all the bikes meet the requirements but in practice those who can spend more money are those who have a chance to win. So we are no longer talking about a sport where the human faces another on equal terms to demonstrate his skills. No matter how skilled you are since without a competitive mount you can never win.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 03:21:41 PM
Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 02:33:08 PMSo to be fair all riders should ride the same bike. Otherwise, applying your rationing we face a scam. In motogp the best rider does not win, the best machine-rider combination wins. Therefore it does not compete on equal terms. On paper all the bikes meet the requirements but in practice those who can spend more money are those who have a chance to win. So we are no longer talking about a sport where the human faces another on equal terms to demonstrate his skills. No matter how skilled you are since without a competitive mount you can never win.

Now your talking about the manufacturers place in a Motorsport. Their aim is to produce the best machinery they can within the rules of a sport to win a manufactures championship. To do that they will obviously try and obtain the services of the riders they feel are best skilled to ride their bikes.

Manufacturers products are like competitors in that some manufacturers can produce better products than others just as there are competitors who are better skilled than others, that's the manufacturers competition between each other in a sport, something they compete for as a symbol of prestige and that goes towards greater sales of their products to the public, but both manufacturers and competitors have to adhere to the rules of the sport, the soul of sport and not to bring the sport into disrepute.

Why on earth you've come up with this idea that all riders should ride the same bike for I don't know? Unless your just trying to be facetious on the subject?
There is a manufacturers championship and a riders championship. Each manufacturer team have their own skills and abilities just as individual riders have their own unique skills and abilities, so why suggest that it would be fair for all to ride the same bike when manufacturers are competing to win their side of the championship too? Are you CRAZY? Hehe!  ;D  ;)

And no you wouldn't be facing a scam at all.... Of course the best rider manufacturer combination during any season is very likely to win the championship, what else would you expect? But it's also the case that the best bike with a bad rider won't win the championship too. But that's true whether we have electronic aids or not so what point are you trying to make Manu?
We all hope that several manufactures can produce more or less equally competitive bikes but generally their is always one manufacture that has produced a bike that is slightly better balanced or handles slightly better which carries through to better tyre performances and wear on that bike, etc, etc... and so in the event they do win the championship then they deserve to do so cause they've done the best job, manufacturer and rider together... That is not a scam at all, that's great team-work..... So again, what point are you trying to make with such a statement Manu?

PS: I hope your not suggesting that if manufacturers are given a maximum BHP power limit that they might as well be riding the same bikes? Noooo... I can't believe you of all people, someone who produces bike mods and knows what a difference balance and handling can make to the performance of a bike could even think of suggesting something like that mate. Are you Manu? :o  ;)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Highsides: last year MotoGP had more than bsb. BSB has no TC/aids, MotoGP does, and this highside pattern has been seen for the past few years.

So I'd say that's not really a valid point.

As for MotoE, I don't know if you've seen it, but the racing is superb despite the lack of gears. Close, and often rough. High stakes too as a bike of that weight hitting s Leg is gonna hurt.


Bike setup is a vital part of MotoGP now, and to be fair, I am not a big fan of how 'finnicky' they are. You're either on the perfect setup, or you're off the pace significantly.
(Or your Marc Marquez but he's a different entity all on his own)

That being said, I appreciate the talent the engineers and riders have for diagnosis and applying squiggly lines to actual mechanical parts.
I find that awe inspiring to be honest.


As for safety elements, I agree with Manu. They are aids, to help the rider not to keep him (or her) safe. They make the bikes faster, and push technology to the edge. As that is what grand Prix racing is about. PUSHING TECHNOLOGY. Pushing the rider to new heights mentally and physically, by holding on to something seemingly breaking the laws of physics, and mentally by everything going by quicker than ever.

As mentioned with BSB and highsides, you could actually argue that TC and AW is making the sport More unsafe due to the riders relying on them. However this argument is short-lived, because, as Manu, rightly said, GP bikes would be unusable without them. And that's even more unsafe.

I believe that to keep the essence of GP Racing, which is pushing technology,(as all top level Motorsport has always  been) then these aids are essential, and if you have to limit power to remove this, you're losing the very foundation of Motorsport.

As for Hawks point of the 'whole point of sport' the actual equipment seems to be neglected in all your arguments.. it's not all about the person you know. You don't see a high jumper in jeans and flip flops? No they have the very best TECHNOLOGY available to them, to AID them in jumping as Efficiently and as high as possible.

There is no difference here with GP racing, except the fact the technology available is different.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:41:09 PM
However once again, can we get back to the topic of 2 Stoke technology and it's feasibility in today's age?

 Not electronics.

While I respect this is a forum and I respect people's right to post in it, and debate, I ask you have the respect to keep to the original topic.

Or I will just lock it
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:43:26 PM
https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6908.0

Use this thread for any other gp chat that isn't related to this topic of 2 strokes feasibility in formula one.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 04:31:42 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:41:09 PMHowever once again, can we get back to the topic of 2 Stoke technology and it's feasibility in today's age?

 Not electronics.

While I respect this is a forum and I respect people's right to post in it, and debate, I ask you have the respect to keep to the original topic.

Or I will just lock it


Oh C'mon matey.... Where's your sense of freedom of speech, your sense of humour.... Lighten-up will you, a bit of controversy and naturally evolving debate keeps the forum a bit more active and lively don't you think!? Hehe! ;D  ;D  ;)  8)

Let the debate evolve.... Where's your sense of FUN!!? Lol! ;D  ;)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 04:38:57 PM
In the right areas feel free to speak what you want, but on these forums, and others, proper etiquette and manners apply ;) .

As someone who loves the older times you should know manners cost nothing :D

But as usual, I love debates with you Hawky, always entertaining and fun
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Manu on January 15, 2020, 05:16:02 PM
I don't try to be facetious. It is difficult to express something in a different language. Maybe you didn't understand what I said.

However, I was not talking about my opinion but what you are trying to say.

You say it stops being a sport because riders can't measure their real abilities. In that case the only way to measure real skills is with the same machine.

Anyway I will not talk more about this subject since it is not going anywhere. For me it is no longer a debate when a person is unable to accept the opinion of another and only wants to impose their own.
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 06:25:55 PM
Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 05:16:02 PMI don't try to be facetious. It is difficult to express something in a different language. Maybe you didn't understand what I said.

However, I was not talking about my opinion but what you are trying to say.

You say it stops being a sport because riders can't measure their real abilities. In that case the only way to measure real skills is with the same machine.

Anyway I will not talk more about this subject since it is not going anywhere. For me it is no longer a debate when a person is unable to accept the opinion of another and only wants to impose their own.

Yes. I forgot that English is not your first language, my apologies for any misunderstandings Manu. You know me mate, no harm or disrespect was intended.  ;)  8)

All I'm trying to say is for MotoGP to get back to being a true sport again, were it's a competition between riders natural ability married with bike and the manufacturers machinery design and team skills and not aided via electronic rider aids controlled via computers in real-time which takes away some of the natural skills a good or great rider possesses..... Putting them on the same bikes would cut out the manufacturers role as such in competing for the manufacturers championship, and including electronic rider aids cuts out the sporting spirit of riders pitting their own skills against one another, that's all I'm saying.  :)

The fact that we don't agree just points out the same problem that politicians have when debating and also the reason they rarely end up changing their minds or agreeing on political issues.... It's not about getting someone to accept your opinion and it's certainly not about trying to impose an opinion on someone else at all(that point of view could be seen from both sides of the debate). If we cannot agree then we'll just agree to disagree mate, nothing wrong with that.  ;D  8)
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 06:41:27 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 04:38:57 PMIn the right areas feel free to speak what you want, but on these forums, and others, proper etiquette and manners apply ;) .

As someone who loves the older times you should know manners cost nothing :D

But as usual, I love debates with you Hawky, always entertaining and fun

Lol! Likewise mate! ;D  8)  ;)

You'll find that I only get a little un-mannered(should we say) in equal measure(I try) if others are doing the same or being continually disrespectful.... I maybe a little blunt and flippant at times but never mean to disrespect or upset anyone, otherwise you'll just have to get used to me and put up with it if you regard those things as anything else. Lol! ;)  ;D  8)

In fact you couldn't wish for a nicer, self-opinionated, easier-going person than I to have a debate with! Lol!  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?
Post by: Manu on January 15, 2020, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 06:25:55 PMYes. I forgot that English is not your first language, my apologies for any misunderstandings Manu. You know me mate, no harm or disrespect was intended.  ;)  8)

All I'm trying to say is for MotoGP to get back to being a true sport again, were it's a competition between riders natural ability married with bike and the manufacturers machinery design and team skills and not aided via electronic rider aids controlled via computers in real-time which takes away some of the natural skills a good or great rider possesses..... Putting them on the same bikes would cut out the manufacturers role as such in competing for the manufacturers championship, and including electronic rider aids cuts out the sporting spirit of riders pitting their own skills against one another, that's all I'm saying.  :)

The fact that we don't agree just points out the same problem that politicians have when debating and also the reason they rarely end up changing their minds or agreeing on political issues.... It's not about getting someone to accept your opinion and it's certainly not about trying to impose an opinion on someone else at all(that point of view could be seen from both sides of the debate). If we cannot agree then we'll just agree to disagree mate, nothing wrong with that.  ;D  8)

No problem.

I do not pretend that you agree with me. Obviously everyone has their opinion. That is what it is about. But that does not mean that you are in a position of truth as I am not either. They are different views for the same thing.

I apologize for moving away from the original matter.