PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stout Johnson on June 15, 2020, 08:22:45 PM

Title: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Stout Johnson on June 15, 2020, 08:22:45 PM
Dear Piboso,

I haven't had a look at a version of GPB for quite some time, but out of curiosity I installed beta18b. There's a lot of things I like but also a few things that are really frustrating.

Pros:
+ nice new addition of Assen (could use a bit more detail though, especially grandstands)
+ nice Moto2 bike (engine sound could be better though)
+ sightly improved tire simulation
+ nice rider animations and hangoff styles

Cons:
- even on moderate downshifts (nowhere near high revs on downshifts), the rear locks up; the rear even locks up under braking when there is NO downshifting at all. this is not realistic at all - is this a broken slipper clutch simulation?
- the tires heat up very strangely and become almost unrideable after 2 laps; only way around that is to brake and downshift ultra conservatively and try to keep revs on downshifts under 40% of max rev which is absolutely unrealistic
watch this video for example on how aggressively real downshifts are made without rear locking up

- tire temps and grip simulation is too crude and artificial: tire grip out of the pits is best, after a few laps on track tires tend to slide very much; so in GPB with cold tires the bike has perfect grip and with warmer tires the bike has less grip and tends to slide out rather randomly - very strange; in reality it is the other way aroud
--> I know this is supposed to simulate overheating of tires, but it is broken; first there is too much grip with cold tires and the way the tires overheat is exaggerated in GPB; in reality overheating tires do generate less grip than optimal tire temperatures, but still more grip than cold tires. overheating tires do generate a bit less grip and the tires do spin a tad bit more (so accelerating is a bit slower) and the tires slide a bit more under ultra-heavy braking (so one has to brake a bit earlier), but they just do not magically slide or spin out like in GPB; in GPB when tires overheat a bit, the bike even tends to slide out with almost no lean angle; also in GPB you can brake latest when shifting down ultra conservatively (ultra late) whereas in reality you can brake latest when shifting down aggressively and using the engine brake power of high revs.
- in GPB the grip simulation has a tendency to be only on the extremes: either there is absolute perfect grip or no grip at all and the bike sliding like crazy

Overall I still like GPB a lot: I like the suspension simulation, the overall feeling of the brakes in GPB. That is what still creates the "itch" I felt when I discovered GPB more than 10years ago when I did lap after lap after lap trying to master the bike. But at the moment that joy goes away rather quickly because the tire simulation seems to be rather crude in terms of tire temps and grip simulation. Also the way the rear locks up under even moderate braking and downshifting is absolutely a turn-off and makes riding long stints with realistic braking impossible. At the moment I "enjoy" getting out of pits and using the grip of the cold (!) tires for one lap, after that it becomes a sliding festival or trying to "walk on eggs" with ultra conservative braking and downshifting and trying to have the tires in "non-icy icy sliding mode"... which is annoying and I quit after 15mins.

@Piboso: If you find the time, I really would like to hear how you explain the differences in what your sim does and what happens in reality on braking and downshifting (as shown in the video I posted above). Is there possibly a problem with the slipper clutch simulation? And where and how are you trying to improve GPB in terms of tire simulation?

Kind regards
Stout
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 15, 2020, 11:03:04 PM
I agree, the M2 has a few problems.
That said, mod bikes have surpassed the default bikes handling a long time ago.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Stout Johnson on June 16, 2020, 06:12:13 AM
Probably Vini, but it is sad that a bike "simulator" hast such massive flaws out of the box. Even I - as a long year GPB enthusiast - am deterred that the bike created by dev of the sim does not reflect realistic behaviour. I can only assume what people might think that try the sim for the first time. It has to be hard for newbies, because of the physics and it for sure takes a learning curve for every simulator. But the underlying motorcycle physics need to be on point, especially for those who seek a simulator. Those who are interested in GPB over stuff like Milestone Games are for the most part people that have much real-life riding experience, to a fair share people that have raced in real life and therefore know how a bike and tires should behave. And I am pretty sure GPB with the M2 has a lot of potential to attract, but as it is now will rather do the opposite. Also I think for modders, it would be good to have reference for tire sim and how it is meant to be.

I would be much interested in where the big boss stands on this.

Quote from: Vini on June 15, 2020, 11:03:04 PMI agree, the M2 has a few problems.
That said, mod bikes have surpassed the default bikes handling a long time ago.
Which mod bikes are available for b18, which one can you recommend?
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: PiBoSo on June 16, 2020, 10:33:11 AM

The M2 engine braking curve needs tuning for sure.
Also, maybe the slipper clutch simulation is not fully correct yet.

As for the stock tyres...
They are a long-standing problem that will have to be addressed sooner rather than later.
There are a couple problems:
1) There is too much grip when the tyre is slipping at the max lean angle
2) However, when the grip is lost, it drops too quickly, making it almost impossible to control the bike
The algorithms are correct, it should be a simple matter of tuning the tyres' physics data.
I think that some mods already did a good job improving the tyres' behaviour.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: h106frp on June 16, 2020, 10:56:00 AM
I think the slipper is working quite well, the only thing that is not obvious is the basic definition of the spring strength, is it related to the max_torque?
i.e. a low power/torque bike would use light springs and less plates but a big powerful bike would need stronger springs and more frction area (plates). So it is not so obvious how to control the rate of pressure plate displacement.

The generic behaviour of the tyres can be tuned but I would be interested in comments on my post as how to define the temperature/grip/wear behaviour.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Stout Johnson on June 16, 2020, 12:14:13 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on June 16, 2020, 10:33:11 AMThe M2 engine braking curve needs tuning for sure.
Also, maybe the slipper clutch simulation is not fully correct yet.

As for the stock tyres...
They are a long-standing problem that will have to be addressed sooner rather than later.
There are a couple problems:
1) There is too much grip when the tyre is slipping at the max lean angle
2) However, when the grip is lost, it drops too quickly, making it almost impossible to control the bike
The algorithms are correct, it should be a simple matter of tuning the tyres' physics data.
I think that some mods already did a good job improving the tyres' behaviour.
First off, thank you for responding Piboso. Also thank you for your honest response. I salute that, very professional on your part.

Looking at what you write and also seeing what h106 (who has a ton of knowledge in that respect, I conversed with him privately on that matter) wrote, I think in all likelihood the slipper clutch simulation might not be main problem, but rather the engine braking curve. That would also explain why it happens even with no downshifts at all, only braking. Even then the rear locks up rather easily.

The other big problem is the simulation of the tires. First off, the relation between temps and grip (https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8573.0) needs to be realistic.

Secondly, the simulation of the tire temps needs to be realistic. As far as I know you account for 3 different areas of the tire areas ("temperature rings") which provide different heating areas - center, left, right? This is much too crude from my point of view.
Even for cars, tire simulation could be more sophisticated, because even there the stress on the tires changes rapidly. But for cars, the tires at least are on contact with the asphalt almost all the time. For bikes, depending on the lean, some areas of the tire are very far away from the contact patch and the surface and are rapidly cooling when not "under stress".
You can see how fast tire temps on the surface vary, increasing almost immediately under stress and cooling almost instantly when stress decreases. Even for cars with tyres acting almost everytime as a contact patch this is very obvious. This should be even more obvious with bike tires as there is only a small contact patch and therefore only a narrow contact patch ring during a certain lean angle. The majority of a motorcycle tire (most temperature rings) is not acting as a contact patch and therfore for the most part cooling. For bikes, the cooling should be much more rapid compared to car tires - for example when leaning from the left and then to the right because then the left flank would be far away from that contact patch, away from the asphalt and getting almost no stress (except in the deep areas of the tire due to macro-deformation) and would cool off in the surrounding air.

If you would implement a very thorough tire temperature simulation with numerous temperature rings, you might get rid of many problems with grip simulation. You might even be able to simulate high-siders - which is very crude at the moment and always comes very much delayed at the moment in GPB. It would be the ultimate testament to your simulation if you could get that simulated.

And having many different contact patch/tire temperature rings might help simulated it much better. The area under extreme stress while spinning (overheating and spinning) gets less stress if the rider releases throttle and the spinning disappears, the tires cools off very fast on the upper surface and the rubber does not melt anymore but becomes firmer again. All of a sudden there is an immediate increase in grip. Also the lean of the bike may change during that process and the contact patch is now on a cooler "ring" (a different area of the tire where there had been less stress and therefore less heat) - that significant rise in grip creates inertia in the tires which works its way up over the bike into the rider and propels him off the bike. As stated above, for all that to be realistic you also need a realistic connection between tire temps and grip level as asked by H106 here --> relation between temps and grip (https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8573.0).

Talking about all of this, one thing comes to my mind. Some years ago, when you implemented the simulation of rev changes with lean due to the circumference differences of a tire (increasing wheel velocity with higher lean due to smaller circumference), you implemented some sort of circumference measuring in GPB. Could that possibly also be usable for the problem of differing "contact patch/tire temperature rings"?

I think it would not be too hard to implement? Of course you'd have to simulate tire temps for each "ring". But maybe there do not need to be too many rings. I'd say having like 11 rings (left, ride) per side and one wider ring for the center of the tire might be sufficient? If the center ring is being used for 5° of lean to each side (so 10° l/r overall). That would leave ~ 55° of lean left for 11 rings. That would account for one temperature ring per 5° of lean. That might just be sophisticated enough for relatively realistic tire temps and therefor calculation of actual grip, depending on the lean and the tire temps of that tire area that is being used for a certain amount of lean. That might even make the sim less dependent on trying to tune the current tire physics data because the differing tire temps and therfore grip levels per lean would make it more realistic in that respect already. After all, it might be impossible to tweak tire physics data and expect realistic behaviour (e.g. realistic slides, high-siders) if the tire temps model is so crude as it is now. What do you think?
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 02:28:17 PM
The tyre heating behaviour for most of the riding process is set in the tyre files by the mod creator.

In there the tyres can be set to heat and cool differently, as well as separate values for being on the sides of the tyre for long periods of time.

To my knowledge no-one has got tyres right, as quite frankly, there is very little information available. Sure we've got pacejkas formula but to me that's all there is.

As h said with the post that was  referenced there is very little, perhaps no information on how this affects tyre behaviour.

I cannot state however about how the tyre is split or how to implement a more accurate model as I don't know. I don't actually know how inaccurate the current one is as like I said no one has got a tyre right.

(Some feel good to ride on, but when out on a different bike, they feel awful. Now this could be a bike issue I don't know, however to my knowledge the bikes are accurate using real data so there is no reason for it to be the bikes if that makes sense. Whether it's an issue somewhere else again I have no clue)

As for the m2, I also share the issues with it, as do most users of gp bikes it seems.

It's why I have decided to attempt to 'redo' various parts of it, in an M2 V2 mod available on my Discord server. (Will be on forum's once complete) it's not finished yet, as the tyres need a huge update, (about 50% completed) so it's still a wip.

I also have a HP4 Race which is again on my discord server if that's your cup of tea. It is a first mod for me so while I tried to keep values as close to real as possible there are some concenssions, and it isn't as good as it could be I don't think.

While I personally aren't keen on them, There are new 500cc GP and MotoGP mods available, again on discord, and while I again am not a fan (seem unrealistic to me) I would suggest giving them a go as people seem to like them, and there does seem to be some care taken for their development.

One recurring theme here is Discord.

Even if you hate the program I reccomend joining the GPB Discord, as that's where most of the 'community' is these days, and due to restrictions on mods here on the forum's, most of them get released there first.

Hope I confused the matter even more  ;D




Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: h106frp on June 16, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
Nearly all tyre files are copy and paste of the default, the heat rate and wear are adjusted to suit the mod bike (mainly down to chassis weight and the fact that the default tyres are off by quite a bit) Fiddling the couple of values to make the rear slide works but its a bit off from reality .

What we need is to fix is the instantaneous dynamics of the tyre grip - its part of what makes bike riding a challenge and PiBosos sim different to the scripted behaviour found in most bike games.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Hawk on June 16, 2020, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 02:28:17 PMEven if you hate the program I recommend joining the GPB Discord, as that's where most of the 'community' is these days, and due to restrictions on mods here on the forum's, most of them get released there first.

Hope I confused the matter even more  ;D

It's NOT "MODS" that have been restricted on the forum, It's links to "ILLEGAL" MODS that have been restricted; two totally different contexts mate. ;)

Anyone is free to post & link about their MODS if they have not been ripped, copied, or used & altered without any permissions from the original creator.

So feel free to post your "Legal" MODS here in the forum. It's not a problem at all. ;)
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PM
@Stout: Manu's MotoGP bikes are by far the best handling bikes out there at the moment.

Some mods have a really realistic front with proper chattering and "progressive grip loss" under heavy loads etc. The M2 is lacking very much in that regard in addition to the engine brake / slipper clutch problems.
The rear tyre of most mods on the other hand could still improve further. Especially powerslides are not smooth/progressive enough. Loss and regain of traction occurs too abruptly. I don't think this is purely due to tyres, though. The virtual rider may simply be too tense on the steering, not allowing the bike to work freely.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 02:28:17 PM(Some feel good to ride on, but when out on a different bike, they feel awful. Now this could be a bike issue I don't know, however to my knowledge the bikes are accurate using real data so there is no reason for it to be the bikes if that makes sense. Whether it's an issue somewhere else again I have no clue)
It is the bikes. No bike is accurate, as there are a couple of free parameters like chassis flex or steering forces for which no empirical data exist.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 07:48:57 PM
Quote from: Hawk on June 16, 2020, 06:43:39 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 02:28:17 PMEven if you hate the program I recommend joining the GPB Discord, as that's where most of the 'community' is these days, and due to restrictions on mods here on the forum's, most of them get released there first.

Hope I confused the matter even more  ;D

It's NOT "MODS" that have been restricted on the forum, It's links to "ILLEGAL" MODS that have been restricted; two totally different contexts mate. ;)

Anyone is free to post & link about their MODS if they have not been ripped, copied, or used & altered without any permissions from the original creator.

So feel free to post your "Legal" MODS here in the forum. It's not a problem at all. ;)

kinda is the same thing though, as to my understanding this covered all things not scratch built, whether the converter has permission or not was not relevant to my knowledge. But I could be wrong. IDK

Either way, the fzr750 is the latest mod on the forums, and before that it was 2018 the last mod, the rest are on Discord, so its still well worth having.

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PM@Stout: Manu's MotoGP bikes are by far the best handling bikes out there at the moment.

I would have to disagree with that. For 2 main reasons.

1) I highly doubt anyone here has ridden a 2019 MotoGP bike, so no-one can really say what is realistic.
2) 0% to 100% throttle at max lean doesn't kill you, but is the fastest way around the turn... No bike, Grand Prix Prototype with all the fancy electronics or not should be capable of this, and the onboard data from the real bikes certainly goes against this also.
But again, this has been covered extensively on the discord, so I won't go further. (and its not what this thread is about)




Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PMSome mods have a really realistic front with proper chattering and "progressive grip loss" under heavy loads etc. The M2 is lacking very much in that regard in addition to the engine brake / slipper clutch problems.
The rear tyre of most mods on the other hand could still improve further. Especially powerslides are not smooth/progressive enough. Loss and regain of traction occurs too abruptly. I don't think this is purely due to tyres, though. The virtual rider may simply be too tense on the steering, not allowing the bike to work freely.


This is 1/2 true to my knowledge. There are some good tyres out there, (F+R) but again, no-one has got them 100% right. The best way I've found is to have a value where the front tyre can have a higher maximum angle than the rear, as the width difference seems to result in the front 'going off the edge more' at max lean. Allowing the Front that bit extra angle over the rear makes the whole experience, particularly on corners with camber changes (MG Hairpin) a whole lot more confidence inspiring, without harming the realism, as the bike will only lean as far on the joystick/input as the tyres minimum - max lean if that makes sense. (The tyre with the lowest maximum lean dictates the total max lean of the bike, but if the camber changes, that max lean gets exceeded. Its why lean is limited on grass, but if you are beyond that lean limit entering grass you fall)

The M2 is lacking in that regard also, and the EB and slipper clutch aren't right as mentioned. (Which is a WIP on the M2 v2 I'm doing)

The rear tyres overall are tricky, and as you say, no-one has that right at all I don't feel. Some are closer to others, but it really is a guessing game it seems.

As for the VR, the VR is editable in the bike CFG. How far this goes, I have no clue, I haven't experimented enough, so there may be an underlying issue with it. But I did reduce a value to 0 and he lost all input on the bars, so it is possible to have him relax more in the bike CFG's so its a mod thing mainly to me.

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PMIt is the bikes. No bike is accurate, as there are a couple of free parameters like chassis flex or steering forces for which no empirical data exist.

Yes and No. While there isn't any concrete data as to actual values, there is data and formulae on the internet to help workout values that are roughly in the ballpark.

This I think needs Piboso to clear up on just how he gets his values, and what formulae are used to calculate it
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 07:57:05 PM
PS:

Note on the tyres:

I did find through my testing that the front being 'dragged' around the turns can be reduced or removed by reducing the 'slidiness' of the rear tyre. Bit odd that it had this effect I know, but I will do some more testing for the new tyres on the M2V2 to consolidate this theory.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 07:48:57 PM1) I highly doubt anyone here has ridden a 2019 MotoGP bike, so no-one can really say what is realistic.
2) 0% to 100% throttle at max lean doesn't kill you, but is the fastest way around the turn... No bike, Grand Prix Prototype with all the fancy electronics or not should be capable of this, and the onboard data from the real bikes certainly goes against this also.
1) How the bike "feels" under your ass is irrelevant anyway since you are not playing the game through a motion-simulator that accurately simulates all forces acting on you.
In general, the mod looks and sounds very close to real MotoGP footage when pushed to the limit.
2) That is a horrible criterion to judge the realism of a mod as the ECU simulation is very bad in GPB in general. Also, real MotoGP riders can go to full throttle a lot quicker than you might think and if they wanted to, they could easily set up the traction to allow for instant flat-out but of course this would result in slow times.
Riding aids (including low direct lean values) in general mask a lot of the true bike handling in GPB. Going insta-flatout on the MGP bikes will definitely "kill" you without TC.
In any case, while the mod is obviously not perfect, it's the most realistic of the mods we currently have. It even managed to improve the downhill understeer to some degree.

Speaking of that...
@PiBoSo: What is the consensus on the downhill problem? What is the cause and could it be fixed in the future? This is the one big physics engine problem remaining in the game.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 07:48:57 PMAs for the VR, the VR is editable in the bike CFG. How far this goes, I have no clue, I haven't experimented enough, so there may be an underlying issue with it. But I did reduce a value to 0 and he lost all input on the bars, so it is possible to have him relax more in the bike CFG's so its a mod thing mainly to me.
Which value are you talking about specifically? I guess the problem is the lack of dynamics in the steering forces: While you obviously need a lot of steering input to change direction at high speed, they should actually be close to absolute 0 under heavy acceleration (corner exit). My analysis and proposed experiment regarding this has still not been adressed by PiBoSo. (https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=5464.msg97275#msg97275)

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PMYes and No. While there isn't any concrete data as to actual values, there is data and formulae on the internet to help workout values that are roughly in the ballpark.
I don't think those results are anything close to accurate. There is a reason simulators are not a thing in MotoGP like they are in F1. Modern chassis design is pretty much black magic, as the Ducati and Yamaha mishaps of the past have shown. Lastly, there is no "virtual rider algorithm" in reality.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PM
Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PM1) How the bike "feels" under your ass is irrelevant anyway since you are not playing the game through a motion-simulator that accurately simulates all forces acting on you.

Agreed

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PMIn general, the mod looks and sounds very close to real MotoGP footage when pushed to the limit.


Looking at the inputs and how they differ I have no choice but to disagree to this. The inputs are not representative of the real bikes when compared side by side. The visual behaviour of the bikes is also not representative when compared to real life.

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PM2) That is a horrible criterion to judge the realism of a mod as the ECU simulation is very bad in GPB in general. Also, real MotoGP riders can go to full throttle a lot quicker than you might think and if they wanted to, they could easily set up the traction to allow for instant flat-out but of course this would result in slow times.


The ECU simulation is bad in GP Bikes, however the 'harshness' of its intervention is user controlled.
As you said they could do such a thing IRL, and it would make the bikes slower, but, in the game its the fastest way to do so.


Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PMIn any case, while the mod is obviously not perfect, it's the most realistic of the mods we currently have.


Gonna have to disagree again. I mean  just remembering back to the Valencia session we had the other day, the fastest setup was maximum damping on one end, minimum on the other, and making the bike as long as possible to increase its steering speed. This is COMPLETELY Backwards, and highlights massive issues with the mod values.


Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PMSpeaking of that...
@PiBoSo: What is the consensus on the downhill problem? What is the cause and could it be fixed in the future? This is the one big physics engine problem remaining in the game.

+1
Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 08:21:45 PMWhich value are you talking about specifically? I guess the problem is the lack of dynamics in the steering forces: While you obviously need a lot of steering input to change direction at high speed, they should actually be close to absolute 0 under heavy acceleration (corner exit). My analysis and proposed experiment regarding this has still not been adressed by PiBoSo. (https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=5464.msg97275#msg97275)


spg0 = -340
spg1 = -2
sdg0 = -100
sdg1 = 0.5
sig0 = 0
sig1 = 0

These are the values that seem to edit the VR values to me. There is a thread on these but the reply from Pib was 'It is too complicated to explain' which I can only assume is why he's not bothered to reply...

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 07:08:11 PMI don't think those results are anything close to accurate. There is a reason simulators are not a thing in MotoGP like they are in F1. Modern chassis design is pretty much black magic, as the Ducati and Yamaha mishaps of the past have shown. Lastly, there is no "virtual rider algorithm" in reality.



If Piboso has used formulas to calculate the physics of GP Bikes, (which he has) then there is no reason it should have changed for this area. Its why I want Piboso to explain how he calculated the values, as this will allow us to better calculate ours.

It is a black magic art IRL, but using material properties and formulae using real world data, we can get a very good guess as to various values. We have real values to go on or get close to for the most part so there is no real reason for it to be 'black magic' here
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: h106frp on June 16, 2020, 08:51:04 PM
@MysticPrun
Are you going to try adding ECU controls to you M2V2? I never really tried the M2 but after Stout raised the question I had a look in the .cfg and after observing a lot of forum discussion I was surprised to find it has no ECU modes other than pit-limiter. Everything on the M2 is basic mechanical at the moment.

I can understand why PiBoso has the bike this way for development as it makes it much easier to get the mechanical side correct id you do not have all the electronic fudgery going on masking basic physics issues.

A quote I found on the web for M2 ECU standard;
the initial electronic features that will be available for the Moto2 riders were confirmed as torque maps, engine braking and launch control.

But as rumoured, the most well-known electronic rider aid, traction control, will not be present.

"Traction control will not be introduced for next season," said MotoGP Director of Technology Corrado Cecchinelli. "It doesn't mean it won't be in the future.

So you could define the engine maps (torque), braking and launch - the old mura990 is an example of the script.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 09:09:40 PM
Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2020, 08:51:04 PM@MysticPrun
Are you going to try adding ECU controls to you M2V2? I never really tried the M2 but after Stout raised the question I had a look in the .cfg and after observing a lot of forum discussion I was surprised to find it has no ECU modes other than pit-limiter. Everything on the M2 is basic mechanical at the moment.

From my research, the Honda spec Moto 2 machine (which this is based) had nothing in terms of electronic aids, not TC, AW, or EB, which is why the Piboso Bike is like this.

The Triumph Spec m2 has much more, and is like you said. AW, Adjustable EB, Launch Control, etc. But no TC. They said they would only introduce it if the increased torque from the triple became a safety issue. (it has about 20 more BHP at the rear wheel than the Honda, and the triple naturally has more torque although the specific values I have no idea on)

For this reason the M2V2 will not have any extra aids on that part, although I did experiment to see what the behaviour would be like and help me diagnose where the EB base value needs to be changed. I feel like the value is pretty good ATM but when the new tyres are done it may need changing.

The issue with the current Standard M2 I've found is to someone watching, they saw the honda bikes slide into pretty much any turn, and wondered why it happened like this.

So the easiest way to replicate that was to mash up the EB which I think is what has happened here. The actual reason (derived from interviews from riders etc) the bikes seemed to slide is simply downshifting a lot of gears at once.

(Clutch in, 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1, clutch out, all in one pull, or extremely quick pulls. Which then locked up/under-rotated the rear. It wasn't necessarily to do with the fact the EB was high. Infact I believe the Honda engines used were built to SSP spec, then DETUNED back to road power for reliability. (SSP for parts quality and care, power for reducing stress)

The engines were only about 125bhp, (the piboso M2 is 140, which is the triumph's power)

So no EB. Maybe a triumph spec one after will have them but not this current one I'm doing



Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 09:11:01 PM
Infact I believe the quote you posted was about the Triumps?

(Also the Grand Prix Moto3 Bikes have ALL the aids to my knowledge too, TC Included, but that is open to being checked)
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 10:06:41 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMLooking at the inputs and how they differ I have no choice but to disagree to this. The inputs are not representative of the real bikes when compared side by side. The visual behaviour of the bikes is also not representative when compared to real life.
You are comparing the inputs of gamepad to that of a real rider sitting on a real bike...
If you closely watch how the suspension behaves (in response to rider inputs) in slowmo, it looks pretty spot on. Certainly compared to other mods, where the suspension just suddenly starts overreacting out of nowhere or stays permanently stiff.
While you can still make the bikes behave weirdly on purpose, it's much harder to do than with any other mod.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMThe ECU simulation is bad in GP Bikes, however the 'harshness' of its intervention is user controlled.
As you said they could do such a thing IRL, and it would make the bikes slower, but, in the game its the fastest way to do so.
It's only faster in the game because without TC, you simply cannot be at the grip limit consistently when operating a virtual throttle through a gamepad without any physical feedback.
An automic algorithm will always be better in this case, no matter how harsh. Real pro riders on the other hand can get very close to the limit, even beating ABS stopping distance etc.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMGonna have to disagree again. I mean  just remembering back to the Valencia session we had the other day, the fastest setup was maximum damping on one end, minimum on the other, and making the bike as long as possible to increase its steering speed. This is COMPLETELY Backwards, and highlights massive issues with the mod values.
1) The bike reacts correctly to setup changes.
2) I used a very different setup to beat Manu's time.
3) The reason why extreme setups tend to be faster in GPB is once again because we are talking about a game and not a real rider who risks highsiding into oblivion with too low rebound damping and who is dependent on gathering sufficient physical feedback from the bike.
4) While not perfect like I said, most of the MGP bikes are way ahead of other mods in terms of dynamics. Depending on the track and your preferred riding style, the optimal setup (or even bike) varies greatly.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMIt is a black magic art IRL, but using material properties and formulae using real world data, we can get a very good guess as to various values. We have real values to go on or get close to for the most part so there is no real reason for it to be 'black magic' here
If it was that easy to calculate, MotoGP teams wouldn't develop their chassis in the wrong direction for months or years. They would simply take those "values" you are talking about, input it into a simulator and see whether it's good or bad. There is simply no practical way to gather every single piece of data necessary to fully describe the physics of the chassis.
...Even if you had access to an actual MotoGP chassis in order to measure every single angle and thickness, which you don't.

P.S.: Have you even tried every bike of the set? There are vast handling differences. I can't stand the Yamaha handling for example. Too stiff and unresponsive. The KTM is like the polar opposite.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 10:55:32 PM
A realistic mod has inputs that are similar to real life, as well as suspension behaviour... There's no point having a mod where the suspension looks right but you don't lift to go round the last turn at Malaysia. (Extreme example I know but the point is inputs are just as important. Put the brake lever travel in game next to a real life onboard and it's not comparable. So something is amiss..


You can adjust the TC in the files to be better, but I feel it's more the tyres. The rear has very little edge grip and as such relies on the ECU to boost exit speed.

Not saying you can't ride it different from this but that seems to be 'the way'.

1) no the bike does not respond correct to setup changes, as under NO circumstances should INCREASING the wheelbase make it change direction faster..... (Not Manus setup my own observations, as well as the people I was talking to In the session at the time)

2) never said you didn't

3) Extreme setups on a bike that works correctly don't make the bike faster.

4) it's not perfect, and is not ahead of the other bikes. While it's a good mod, and on some circuits in some circumstances even my boring self can find it enjoyable, and it's quite obvious effort went into making it, it has several issues, which quite clearly make it unrealistic. It certainly isn't the most realistic mod in GPB

I will guide you to CAWS for those.

As for chassis... My statement was more in general, not just for motogp...

It would only be a rough estimate but material strength and stuff are available online, as well as chassis details. I was looking at the difference between the 1098 and 999 earlier, and how they stiffened parts etc, and what materials were used.

If we just had the formulas we could calculate this (albeit roughly) into gpb. It would be way better than what we have now, and I can't see why you'd be against having more information on how the strengths and damping is implemented. It can only be good, even if it's not used.

Ps: I have tried every bike in the set, I was also there during most of the mods development.

I also know (up until recently I haven't checked) most of the bikes were very close to the old 990 in values, the Maximum suspension travel is wrong, and the fuel tank size is incorrect. That's all I bothered to look at.

This is all stuff available on dornas website as it's homologated in the rulebook, and free for everyone btw..

But alas, that's the end of my discussion on the matter. I urge people to download as many mods as you can, as despite the varying level of realism, most are of a high quality thee days, and as people can see, you really have to come to your own conclusions on what you like and want to ride.

Ironically for me, GP bikes simulates actual Grand Prix bikes the worst out of all of them available.

Supersports, and production/low power GP bikes (Moto3/125/250) are some of the most enjoyable in the Sim, and provide the best racing it seems.

MotoGP here doesn't interest me, because of the reasons outlined above. I go to play GP 20 for the GP fix so to speak .

 :)
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 11:01:54 PM
I just also need to clear up:

I don't mean for this to sound like I'm 'bashing another mod'. I, especially after my relatively wrubbish attempts at modding, understand a lot more the process, and I can also understand how making a MotoGP mod could be hard, especially as most of the data is as we said best guess, due to confidential data.

I do really want the mod to succeed, just like I want gpb to succeed, (whole different thread for that one) But there is just evidence that it isn't the most realistic mod in GP Bikes at the minute.

Note:

I'm not saying mine are any better, hell, the HP4 race, was cobbled together and is missing some bits, and isn't quite right, and lacks a lot of polish, and the M2 V2 Rework the tyres are unrideable ATM.

So I'm not any better at making one, nowhere near, but I like to think I can see where mods are closer / further from reality.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:06:05 PM
Ah, hell why did I even get into this?
...Discussing bike mods with a guy who thinks Milestone games have better physics than GPB.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Tom HWK on June 16, 2020, 11:14:33 PM
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:18:00 PM
Go play MotoGP20, Tom.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 11:21:12 PM
Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:06:05 PMAh, hell why did I even get into this?
...Discussing bike mods with a guy who thinks Milestone games have better physics than GPB.

For MotoGP bikes the physics are closer than this TBF. Inputs and suspension behaviour is a bit more representative.

Milestone upped it this year. Still not perfect, but it's a +ve.

Quote from: Tom HWK on June 16, 2020, 11:14:33 PM

Cheers Tom big help  ;D
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Tom HWK on June 16, 2020, 11:21:45 PM
Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:18:00 PMGo play MotoGP20, Tom.

Certainly more realistic than backwards entries on a motogp bike and smashing 100% throttle at 60 degrees lean on the apex.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:33:10 PM
Like I wrote in Discord, Marquez does much more crazy stuff with real MotoGP bikes than entering a corner sideways.
You'd be amazed what real riders can do if they don't have to to fear physical pain from crashing.

...Anyway, like I said: "While you can still make the bikes behave weirdly on purpose, it's much harder to do than with any other mod."

Watch my latest YouTube vids and tell me that it looks less realistic than Milestone crap.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Tom HWK on June 17, 2020, 12:46:01 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:33:10 PMWatch my latest YouTube vids and tell me that it looks less realistic than Milestone crap.

It looks less realistic.
Gpbikes can be more realistic than motogp, you just have to make the mod well.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 17, 2020, 12:51:39 AM
Name one mod that is more realistic.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Vini on June 17, 2020, 12:55:40 AM
Anyway, somebody please put this nonsense into a different topic.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Manu on June 17, 2020, 12:57:45 AM
I am seeing many UK detractors around here. A lot of coincidence? hahaha

The truth is that I do not care much for the comments that are limited to saying how unrealistic a MOD is.  Opinions are like the ass, we all have one.

I also have to say that my modifications are not aimed at pleasing anyone but myself, if I like it I am happy. If others like it (a lot of people) I will be happy too. If others don't like it (a minority) I feel sorry for them. There are many other mods to choose from. I will not resent them.

If someone thinks I should obey the guidelines of others, they are wrong. My mods are free. No one pays me, therefore I don't owe anyone anything. I will only consider the proposals that make sense to me. What I consider inappropriate will fall on deaf ears.

As long as I have fun doing what I do I will keep doing it.
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: MidnightBlackbird on June 17, 2020, 05:27:16 AM
 ;D
Can't wait!
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: matty0l215 on June 17, 2020, 06:18:35 AM
Split this from the Beta18c topic as it was going off topic.

Keep the handbags on Discord please gents
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 17, 2020, 06:26:01 AM
If you're happy with it Manu more power to yah  :D

Make if for yourself and if people don't like it they don't ride it. That's my attitude as well.  ;)

Sorry if it seemed like I was slagging you, (or anyone else) off, not the intention. And I have to apologize if that's how it seems. I just based my view off a comparison of footage. Which until I ride a modern GP bike is the closest we got  ;)



It's no secret I struggled with even a basic RIP where half the mod was already done, so I do appreciate the time and effort that goes into even that, perhaps more than some. And making a full scratch build... I am looking at it and trying to learn, but I am fairly certain I will never do that, at least not to a good quality.

As for UK detractors, I keep seeing this, but I don't get it? Guessing something that happened before my appearance  ;D

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 17, 2020, 06:18:35 AMSplit this from the Beta18c topic as it was going off topic.

Keep the handbags on Discord please gents

As long as it's Louis Vuitton I am happy
Title: Re: Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion
Post by: Manu on June 17, 2020, 11:36:41 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 17, 2020, 06:26:01 AMIf you're happy with it Manu more power to yah  :D

Make if for yourself and if people don't like it they don't ride it. That's my attitude as well.  ;)

Sorry if it seemed like I was slagging you, (or anyone else) off, not the intention. And I have to apologize if that's how it seems. I just based my view off a comparison of footage. Which until I ride a modern GP bike is the closest we got  ;)



It's no secret I struggled with even a basic RIP where half the mod was already done, so I do appreciate the time and effort that goes into even that, perhaps more than some. And making a full scratch build... I am looking at it and trying to learn, but I am fairly certain I will never do that, at least not to a good quality.

As for UK detractors, I keep seeing this, but I don't get it? Guessing something that happened before my appearance  ;D

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 17, 2020, 06:18:35 AMSplit this from the Beta18c topic as it was going off topic.

Keep the handbags on Discord please gents

As long as it's Louis Vuitton I am happy

Then I'm glad.

Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:06:05 PMAh, hell why did I even get into this?
...Discussing bike mods with a guy who thinks Milestone games have better physics than GPB.

Vini, don't pay attention. The best medicine is indifference.