PiBoSo Official Forum

GP Bikes => General Discussion => Topic started by: PiBoSo on June 17, 2020, 08:46:09 PM

Title: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: PiBoSo on June 17, 2020, 08:46:09 PM
GP Bikes beta18c available:
http://www.gp-bikes.com/?page=news

It is possible to download a patch at this link, to avoid having to re-download the whole installer:
http://www.gp-bikes.com/downloads/gpbikes-beta18c_p.zip
To install it, simply unpack the zip file in the GP Bikes installation folder.

Download:
http://www.gp-bikes.com/?page=downloads
( download mirrors would be extremely helpful and welcome )
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: PiBoSo on June 17, 2020, 08:47:54 PM
Release Notes
- Beta18: https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8500.msg105533#msg105533
- Beta18b: https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=8509.msg105600#msg105600

- Increased the multiplayer smoothness
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 17, 2020, 11:24:56 PM
Do the mods have to be re-encrypted again?
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: VSMaster on June 17, 2020, 11:55:54 PM
Quote from: Vini on June 17, 2020, 11:24:56 PMDo the mods have to be re-encrypted again?
the latest mods aren't encrypted
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: x1mk_z3 on June 18, 2020, 10:00:34 AM
going to try it now : ). Thanks Piboso
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: SwarleyRuiz on June 18, 2020, 11:53:12 AM
Thanks Piboso!

Downloading and uploading

http://www.swarleyruiz.com/PibosoVideoGames/GP-Bikes/Downloads/Betas/gpbikes-beta18c.exe
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: doubledragoncc on June 18, 2020, 12:09:27 PM
Beta18c Databace link:

GPBikes Full install beta18c exe file (https://mega.nz/file/KqZy2CLb#cYQ-_yVd8T1ZqlSwWKS0yY09QcDJHCuZaLj1rJDSv8k)

DD
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: matty0l215 on June 18, 2020, 07:42:48 PM
Download mirror- http://www.cawsteam.com/Downloads/GPBikes/gpbikes-beta18c.exe
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 20, 2020, 07:02:32 PM
After my first real session in 18c, I have to say that the front is worse.
The low-speed oscillations are back and the front sometimes kicks back very aggressively when trying to stand the bike up with the throttle (out of 90° corners).
The rear tyre feels much nicer now strangely. Powerslides are smooother.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 20, 2020, 10:16:30 PM
Agree with Vini, tried everything and the rider just struggles to lift the bike back up out of turns.Track camber problems also appear worse - its almost as if the camber is being added to the relative lean angle rather than subtracted.

It is very noticeable with Oulton Park hairpin that the bike requires excessive lean to negotiate this high positive camber turn.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 23, 2020, 09:20:28 PM
@PiBoSo: This is what we are talking about.

I know I'm repeating myself but this is something you probably will not experience at Victoria due to the layout.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Stout Johnson on June 24, 2020, 09:37:58 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 20, 2020, 07:02:32 PMAfter my first real session in 18c, I have to say that the front is worse.
The low-speed oscillations are back and the front sometimes kicks back very aggressively when trying to stand the bike up with the throttle (out of 90° corners).
The rear tyre feels much nicer now strangely. Powerslides are smooother.
I agree, the rear seems to be better with beta18c. Front is worse. The front kicks you are describing, seem to not only come from the tire, but also from the virtual rider. Those kicks only happen when accelerating hard out of corner, so it's not so much induced by tire. The virtual rider seems to be programmed to use more force on the handlebars when accelerating hard. That in itself is right since more force is needed. But when trying to lift the bike up, especially when going from left to right or vice versa, the forces seem to be critical. Also the virtual rider seems to have super-human reaction time and reacts to different scenarios in milliseconds which osciallates the front.

My suggestions for Piboso:
---------------------------
1) Virtual rider should use less force on handlebars on 'critical aspects' like lifting bike up- e.g. lifting bike up from very low lean angles is very critical point, since counter steering in max lean can result in lowside. In real life when lifting bike up from max lean, a rider subconsciously lets the bike stand up a bit (pushing bike up away from rider while gently counter-steering) so that the bike reaches a lean angle where not on critical lean with almost no grip reserve and then counter steering with a bit more force, shifting weight etc.
the virtual rider should have a feeling for when critical forces are applied 

2) Virtual rider should react more like a human, therefore not oscillating and therefore making things worse often times. In general when riding a bike, especially on tarmac, it should always be only smooth inputs on the handlebars, much is done with weight transfer of the rider's body and only very slight steering inputs.

watch this clip @~18seconds: Stoner's bike is wiggling because of the weight transfer of the bike and the suspensions work, but he is keeping the steering input almost constant and not jerking, that's why the bike settles.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 24, 2020, 10:05:21 AM
Yep, the front problems are definitely coming from the virtual rider. Not sure why the rear feels better, though.

If anything the steering forces should become smaller the greater the acceleration (note: not speed!) is.
In fact, real riders don't any pressure on the handlebars at all under acceleration. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX_1cK5Q9tQ&t=28)
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 27, 2020, 10:45:20 PM
There seems to be something very wrong with the slipper clutch. I'm not 100% sure but I think this is only a problem since 18c.

@PiBoSo: During long off-throttle phases in high gears and at max. lean, the clutch sometimes seems to disengage completely, even when giving it throttle.
Mimo recorded this clip demonstrating the issue: https://streamable.com/fmlgfr
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 27, 2020, 11:02:31 PM
The clutch engagement (rather than lever position) is visible in debug mode as the last blue bar.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 27, 2020, 11:33:25 PM
Ok?
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 27, 2020, 11:43:16 PM
Its just that the clutch in MaxHud is the controller/lever position so its influence would be controller/autoclutch, the bar in debug is the clutch pressure plate position so it shows the slipper activation as well as the rider input.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 28, 2020, 12:11:18 AM
Just going by the feel I get from riding the bikes, I have to say that at max. lean the slipper clutch is disengaging too easily in general. While the engine brake feels fine at upright braking and quickly makes the rear step out, it is not pulling the bike inwards enough while cornering.
Clips like those above are extreme examples of this behaviour, where the clutch seems to suddenly let go completely. To be fair, this only happens at a few select corners.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 12:47:09 AM
I have been trying to update some bikes and testing (or at least trying to) an updated Nordy and to be honest I am finding the current bike physics a total disaster - the 'crabbing' effect is very severe, camber problems are severe and the VR appears to be unable to control a turn with the ammount of lean to negotiate a turn excessive.

I have also noticed the back stepping out in a very regular manner on long turns, the clutch appears to be engaged OK but the bike ratchets around the turn and the longer you have to hold a turn the more lean the VR feeds in until the front folds, tried pretty much everthing (VR, tyres, geom) without a solution or even a clue as to what is occuring.

Pretty much at the point of giving up trying until the various problems highlighted in recent posts are properly fixed as its just not much fun having to ride around the problems.

In the garage you can alter the ramp and free travel for the slipper and it does appear to funtion but I can only guess that you need to set the clutch max torque carefully in .cfg to emulate the spring rate/slip
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 28, 2020, 12:57:24 AM
I have to say that most of these negative developments only came with 18c.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Stout Johnson on June 28, 2020, 06:13:30 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 27, 2020, 10:45:20 PMThere seems to be something very wrong with the slipper clutch. I'm not 100% sure but I think this is only a problem since 18c.

@PiBoSo: During long off-throttle phases in high gears and at max. lean, the clutch sometimes seems to disengage completely, even when giving it throttle.
Mimo recorded this clip demonstrating the issue: https://streamable.com/fmlgfr
I have had this issue before beta18c. Just to make sure we are not following wrong leads here.

Quote from: Vini on June 28, 2020, 12:11:18 AMWhile the engine brake feels fine at upright braking and quickly makes the rear step out, it is not pulling the bike inwards enough while cornering.
I totally agree with your second observation - the bike not being pulled inwards enough. Concerning the engine brake while upright, I have to disagree. You can get the rear to lock heavily just by braking moderately hard and no downshifts. This is totally exaggerated. My observation only relate to the Schwaben M2 bike, I have not tried any mod bikes. Maybe our differing observations are bike dependant. We agree on the general problems though.

Quote from: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 12:47:09 AM[...]VR appears to be unable to control a turn with the ammount of lean to negotiate a turn excessive.

[...]the longer you have to hold a turn the more lean the VR feeds in until the front folds
I agree, I have made similar observations. In some corners, you end up with significantly higher lean angles than it would be realistic for that kind of corner. I have the feeling that whichever bug is causing the camber corner problems is also causing this strange lean behaviour. But I am not totally sold on the VR being the cause, at least not the only cause. Sometimes I think that the suspensions simulation might be involved in that?

@Piboso: GPB has so much potential, there are so many things that are beautiful in GPB. If you can tune the grip/tire temps relation, tune the engine braking and slipper clutch simulation then it would probably be a good start. If you then would be able to detect and correct what is happening in camber corners, look into the tire issues in wet then GPB might be there physics wise. I politely ask you to please make these physics issues your number one priorities. They are on the table and many of us here are willing to help and test. But please concentrate on physics - this is where GPB used to have its strength compared to other titles. 

The core physics need to feel believable and realistic. That's what brought me to GPB in the first place. I want to be able to a realistic feel for what the bike and the tires are doing. I want to be able to ride on a wet and drying track and try hit the drying spots on the racing line and get a feel for how much I can push on the brakes and on the throttle. I want to experience the slides and skids. That's what GPB is all about for me and what used to be fun.  But at the moment it does not feel believable anymore.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 12:14:49 PM
Well, had a look back and the weird physics started when the off track handling went all auto-pilot and that was around b13, PB stated this is due to tyre modelling and required an urgent fix.... 5 betas on and waiting  :(
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 28, 2020, 01:22:46 PM
Quote from: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 12:14:49 PMWell, had a look back and the weird physics started when the off track handling went all auto-pilot and that was around b13, PB stated this is due to tyre modelling and required an urgent fix.... 5 betas on and waiting  :(
What "weird physics" are you talking about? IMO, beta18b was the best version so far, given the modders got the bike tuning right.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 28, 2020, 06:13:30 AMConcerning the engine brake while upright, I have to disagree. You can get the rear to lock heavily just by braking moderately hard and no downshifts. This is totally exaggerated. My observation only relate to the Schwaben M2 bike, I have not tried any mod bikes. Maybe our differing observations are bike dependant. We agree on the general problems though.
Yes, it is heavily bike dependent. I don't think many modders have properly analyzed the new slipper clutch behaviour and adjusted the bike accordingly. On the MotoGP bikes, the engine brake feels much better and predictable than in previous betas and full lock-ups never happen.
You can even lift the rear while sliding sideways Marquez-style: https://streamable.com/z2m9ts


I think in general, beta18(b) was a great step forward, it just needs some additional slipper clutch (engine brake) tuning for extreme situations.
18c went in the wrong direction, though. Only thing it improved was giving a slightly better feel for the rear under acceleration.
Would be good to know if the VR issues of 18c and the change in rear feel are directly connected but I somehow doubt that.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 01:41:57 PM
The loss of player control off-track (almost impossible to crash until you re-join tarmac) was marked as the point where the tyre were 'broken'. Maybe fixing the tyres will improve other aspects.

We have had several versions of bike inertia just for b18 and the 18a and 18b were certainly incorrect so most bikes wil need modifying moving forward.

Personally I think the slipper is working but the engine back torques (.engn) now need adjusting to suit and its not clear how maxtorque comes into the mix.

Certainly pre 18c you could get the bikes to work, now its almost impossible with the rear feeling like its being lifted(levered) off the track during turns.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 28, 2020, 11:28:54 PM
Example of the virtual rider just randomly letting go mid-corner: https://streamable.com/irxjpe
No camber change, no trailbraking, no bump and no extreme lean angle.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Myst1cPrun3 on June 28, 2020, 11:33:43 PM
Quote from: Vini on June 28, 2020, 11:28:54 PMExample of the virtual rider just randomly letting go mid-corner: https://streamable.com/irxjpe
No camber change, no trailbraking, no bump and no extreme lean angle.

Camber change = corner goes from flat to up hill so yes there is

Extreme Lean angle = Your brake lever is literally scraping the floor, and the wing through it...

You bottomed the bike on the floor
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 28, 2020, 11:47:18 PM
That's not what camber means but either way that corner is pretty much flat. Maybe 1° or something.

The bike only bottomed out after crashing. The perspective is deceiving you. The elbow was just about touching the ground and not a single part of the bike was scraping. Screenshot one frame before the front started folding: https://i.imgur.com/s3lutsO.jpg

But if you want to start some nonsense debate with me again, let's continue in a separate thread and keep this one on-topic, ok?
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 29, 2020, 12:41:26 AM
Pretty much the sort of behaviour I am observing, tried different bikes with different suspensions, collisions, VR etc but the crashes are very predictable for any given corner.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: PiBoSo on June 29, 2020, 08:18:48 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 28, 2020, 12:57:24 AMI have to say that most of these negative developments only came with 18c.

Please note that nothing has been changed in the Beta18c bike physics, except for stability at very low speeds.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 29, 2020, 12:03:16 PM
How exactly did you change the stability at very low speeds? I'm guessing by changing the virtual rider algorithm?

There is definitely something wrong with the front (the VR) since 18c and this has been observed by a few people now. You can see it in the example vids I posted. Those things did not happen in 18b.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on June 29, 2020, 12:29:26 PM
Well, the bikes were never great on camber and inclines but now we seem to have a situation where neither are negotiable as the bike crabs across the slope and eventually folds in a heap.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Tom HWK on June 29, 2020, 07:55:40 PM
since beta 18 the bikes i'm doing have a horrible head shake problem as they come to near vertical on throttle out of corners, i've managed to get near to getting rid of it but it still happens. i'm starting to think from the way it rides that it almost seems like the bike drags the front around corners, then as it straightens and the wheels come back into line that's what causes the bike upset.. i have been riding at valencia for most of it so its pretty flat.

edit: it has something to do with the front lifting as you accelerate, you can ride around it by not letting the front get light out of corners but its pretty hard on a high powered bike.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on June 30, 2020, 09:53:36 PM
Another example of the 18c VR problems: https://streamable.com/mxhnpb
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on July 03, 2020, 02:57:01 PM
So, are you going to investigate or at least acknowledge these issues in any way, PiBoSo?
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on July 04, 2020, 10:58:50 AM
And another crazy VR freakout (by Mimo): https://streamable.com/370nlf
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: PiBoSo on July 04, 2020, 02:23:57 PM
Quote from: Vini on July 03, 2020, 02:57:01 PMSo, are you going to investigate or at least acknowledge these issues in any way, PiBoSo?

If the chassis inertia of the bikes has been updated, using the revised chassis inertia tool of the latest BikeEd version, then please note that the chassis flex damping must be tuned accordingly.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on July 04, 2020, 02:27:35 PM
Ok but these issues existed in 18c even before the bikes were updated.
The bikes worked perfectly in beta18b and in beta18c they all suddenly had these tankslappers, that seem to be impossible for the modders to tune out (on high power bikes).
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: h106frp on July 04, 2020, 05:08:07 PM
Well I have been through most of the range of possible adjustments and nothing appears to really lift the handling into 'believable' territory.
Some observations;
Heavier and more powerful bikes appear worse effected
The bike feels almost 'hinged' in the middle with the rear trying to overtake the front - this becomes massively exagerrated on any sort of incline.
The same occurs on long, fast turns with the bike developing excessive lean and the rear wanting to overtake the front, double apex corners are pretty much out of the question due to the strange lines you end up taking.
Launching off a crest appears to introduce a very significant forward rotation even though the bike is neutrally balanced.
Title: Re: GP Bikes beta18c
Post by: Vini on July 10, 2020, 12:01:40 PM


These are the same problems we had a few betas ago. They are not coming from the bike, as you can see the suspension is not even doing anything. It's just the virtual rider yanking the bars left and right.