Hi Guys. I've been around playing but not active on the forum until now. Yesterday I updated VR bikes to the last version.
What I can't figure out is how I got VR-tracking/steering to work before. I've tried in every possible way tonight, but I can't get the bike to steer. I can see that the rider is following my head, but the bike stays uright. Please refresh my memory of where I can activate it, and feel free to share some other settings regarding the advanced settings etc. I've done som search but couldn find the specific "click" that made the bike turn.
Thanks in advance!
/H
Hi Hocke!
Do you want to actually steer the bike by moving your headset? Not just move the rider? I'm not sure there is a click that makes that happen?
Are you the same Hocke that built the lean rig? Can't find the video now, but my memory tells me that was the name of the uploader..
Bikes do not turn with the body, that is a myth. The bikes turn with counter handlebars.
Quote from: Manu on June 30, 2020, 01:36:19 PMBikes do not turn with the body, that is a myth. The bikes turn with counter handlebars.
If you have a sit on "tilt-to-steer" system, I guess rather than using a sensor on the rig it would probably work better to use the headset movement as steering.
It is not a simulation solution, but a cool arcade controller (especially if he is THE Hocke).
Thanks for replying guys. Yes, I'm the creator of the MotoGP sim.. but I'm currently on another project.
I'm pretty sure that a bike will start to turn if you lean to the side of it.. Yes, It speeds it up if you countersteer, but that's not my issue. This is a gamerelated issue. I'm pretty sure that before I downloaded the last update I could control the bike really smooth by just leaning my head to each side so the rider moved (he still does) but the bike won't follow. I have to steer the bike itself to start turning. Before I could combine those two into a harmony of riding.
The man and the experiment :) The 'body weight' bike is toward the middle
Cool!
The only thing you can do is activate rider tracking so the rider moves. This doesn't turn the bike much though, as you have noticed.
What version did you have before?
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on June 30, 2020, 08:13:41 PMCool!
The only thing you can do is activate rider tracking so the rider moves. This doesn't turn the bike much though, as you have noticed.
What version did you have before?
I'm not sure wich version I had before this one. All I know is that it was very smooth and easy to control the bike by leaning.
It seems that I'm also is given riding lessons here. Well, release the handlebars and lean, see what happens.. I can stand on one footpeg too and do those things but you have to hold back the bike on the bars so it won't turn. I know hot to ride a bike, trust me..
A Racing Rider Answers All Your Questions (https://www.tvsmotor.com/blog/countersteering-explained-racing-rider-answers-questions/)
By the way. I am not trying to give lessons, just clarify wrong concepts.
I don't know if it's of any relevance, but when I went doing a race school, one of the first things we were taught is to turn the bike with our body.
To do this we had to take our hands off the handlebars and make a sharp turn at about 40mph.
Had to have the hands off the bars to complete the excersise
The body is only 10% of the work, the rest is done by the handlebar. It is not a matter of belief, it is pure physics.
But.....the first part of a turn is countersteering............then the bars folloe the corner so you have to have 2 directions of input for the same corner to be correct
The countersteering amount is so minimul many do it without feeling it....its just natural.
DD
Like I said, I had to have hands off the bars to complete the excersise.
The corner was a 40mph hairpin also so it required lean angle to do correct.
The bars may have helped the steering, but as I had no hands on it was done entirely on its own, not by rider input.
The rider input was solely upper body and peg pressure.
Had no issues making a turn.
We were then taught to add handlebar pressure in to aid the turn and give somewhere to brace on the bike.
At the end of the day, it's down to rider preference, there is no right or wrong way to make a turn, just as long as you can make said turn consistently.
But it IS very possible to make a turn without using the handlebars.
As a result, the issue with this vr steering isn't actually the body, but it's the pressure on the pegs that does more steering.
That's hard to replicate
With the weight of the body you can have a certain inclination but that inclination will be very slow and insignificant compared to the counter-handlebar.
People do not pay attention to the counter-handlebar because they do it unconsciously as DD has said.
This is why I do NOT use countersteering but lean angle as using countersteering for the whole corner plus the amount needed for input to GPB makes it feel wrong and is wrong. Tried it dont like it lol.
My new 2020 Sit-on uses a second axis, that of the bars on the horizontal as IRL but only for a bit of feeling. It can be used for pressure input if wanted
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f663/reov54wfmiz00sc6g.jpg)
DD
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 01, 2020, 10:05:13 AMLike I said, I had to have hands off the bars to complete the excersise.
The corner was a 40mph hairpin also so it required lean angle to do correct.
The bars may have helped the steering, but as I had no hands on it was done entirely on its own, not by rider input.
The rider input was solely upper body and peg pressure.
Had no issues making a turn.
We were then taught to add handlebar pressure in to aid the turn and give somewhere to brace on the bike.
At the end of the day, it's down to rider preference, there is no right or wrong way to make a turn, just as long as you can make said turn consistently.
But it IS very possible to make a turn without using the handlebars.
Was the hairpin cambered?
Quote from: doubledragoncc on July 01, 2020, 10:36:20 AMThis is why I do NOT use countersteering but lean angle as using countersteering for the whole corner plus the amount needed for input to GPB makes it feel wrong and is wrong. Tried it dont like it lol.
My new 2020 Sit-on uses a second axis, that of the bars on the horizontal as IRL but only for a bit of feeling. It can be used for pressure input if wanted
(https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/f663/reov54wfmiz00sc6g.jpg)
DD
The direct steering in gpb does not work correctly. There is much to improve.
By the way, your simulator looks very good.
Thanks Manu,
I find too many over complicate the whole steering issue........I have found as have all who use my systems that it is how it feels......even if technically wrong and not complying to the physics books........your still sitting still in a bloody room not on the road and mother nature and her laws of physics is in the pub having a pint....unlike us covid19 life livers lol
IF IT AINT BROKE WHY FIX IT AND IF IT FEELS CORRECT AND NATURAL WHY DO CHANGE IT???
DD
Quote from: Hocke on June 30, 2020, 08:58:07 PMI'm not sure wich version I had before this one. All I know is that it was very smooth and easy to control the bike by leaning.
It seems that I'm also is given riding lessons here. Well, release the handlebars and lean, see what happens.. I can stand on one footpeg too and do those things but you have to hold back the bike on the bars so it won't turn. I know hot to ride a bike, trust me..
Yeah, a keyboard makes us all world champion at times (including myself). The steering is a much debated topic as you can see.
Could be the new bike inertia settings that changed it from the older versions maybe.
Did you take the video down?
Can't seem to find it now. Could tell from how you blipped that you probably knew what you were doing. ;)
Would love to see what you are working on now! PM works if it's not official ;)
Quote from: h106frp on July 01, 2020, 10:36:31 AMQuote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 01, 2020, 10:05:13 AMLike I said, I had to have hands off the bars to complete the excersise.
The corner was a 40mph hairpin also so it required lean angle to do correct.
The bars may have helped the steering, but as I had no hands on it was done entirely on its own, not by rider input.
The rider input was solely upper body and peg pressure.
Had no issues making a turn.
We were then taught to add handlebar pressure in to aid the turn and give somewhere to brace on the bike.
At the end of the day, it's down to rider preference, there is no right or wrong way to make a turn, just as long as you can make said turn consistently.
But it IS very possible to make a turn without using the handlebars.
Was the hairpin cambered?
Negative if anything. Was a course layed out in the carpark at donnington
I don't buy it. Once you have the bike leant over you don't need pressure on the handlebars but getting it to turn in the first place (above let's say 20°) requires countersteering.
I know you have been claiming this time and time again but it's just not believable, given the above video that h posted.
The counter steering input is not needed by the rider to get the bike to turn..
I should know.. Ive done it ;D
That being said, it is a combination of body movement and peg pressure that get the bike to turn initially, then mainly body movement to adjust the lean.
This being said, unless the bike is fucked, it should countersteer naturally anyway to some degree.
My point is that the rider doesn't need to provide input on the bars. But you won't get anywhere quick doing this
I, too, have ridden bikes and my experience matches this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5Z3jyO2pA&t=160
Take your hands off the bars, and stay seated in a standard position, and then try moving your body and pushing and see what happens. Hell you can even try it on a bicycle and it'll be the same.
The actual point of the exercise was to get us new riders used to moving our upper body to steer the bike, as that was all we had.
We had to be very agressive in our movements to make the turn, as it was by far not the best way to do things.
But once all the aspects went together it made cornering easy.
When a 12 yo girl can go knee down on her first time on a geared bike it works one way or another
Either way, the point stands.
You don't need manual rider intervention on the bars to turn.
Simple
Sure it may be slow, and potentially unstable, but the fact is it's not needed.
TLDR:
Rider inputted countersteering not needed to get the bike to turn. (Bike may do small amount automatically however)
But is needed to go anywhere accurately or quickly
As for GP bikes and using the vr to steer,
I can't understand why you'd want that.
And I didn't even know it used to be possible? Unless it was a glitch?
I should also point out that video is a horrendous example.
I guarantee if he was in a standard riding position with no hands on the bars he'd turn.
He's manually trying to keep it straight there, as well, he's on a straight. Put him on a turn and I bet it'll look different
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 01, 2020, 01:54:10 PMI guarantee if he was in a standard riding position with no hands on the bars he'd turn.
He's manually trying to keep it straight there
What do you mean? He was in the standard (hanging off) riding position right at the start and nothing was keeping the bike from turning. They added a second handlebar to the bike while the normal one remained untouched, so the front could still freely move.
Anyway, I agree that HT is probably not the best way to steer the bike in GPB. HT is not very accurate and requires a lot of filtering, making it even less predictable. You could probably get it to work with very low Direct Lean values but then it would feel extremely sluggish.
@OP: If you really want to try this, get OpenTrack and use "Joystick emulation" as output, then map that to the steering in GPB.
Quote from: Vini on July 01, 2020, 02:07:38 PMWhat do you mean? He was in the standard (hanging off) riding position right at the start and nothing was keeping the bike from turning. They added a second handlebar to the bike while the normal one remained untouched, so the front could still freely move.
He's going down a track with dirt either side, so he's gonna be preventing it turning, at least subconsciously.
Only when he sits in a standard position, and takes his hands off completely will it be a fair test.
Anyway, VR steering would be odd in gp bikes. As you say, it'd be sluggish and inaccurate.
It is good on the rider tracking for left and right however it's not usable for up and down movement due to incorrect axis, and not being able to re-assign them.
I think it'd only really work properly if you used direct steer mode with it, then it went of pressure etc?
Can't say as it's not something I'd look into personally
Push bikes are not really a very fair comparision, very slow, very light wheels and no engine (crank/box) so you are not trying to overcome a lot of gyroscopic motion.
At very low speed I would suspect that what might occur is you can push the chassis over a bit with enough force, the wheel wants to go straight on so you generate a tiny bit of an angle at the steering head (everything is sort of reversed) which will be in the required countersteer motion to allow precession of the wheel which then allows the wheel to turn a bit. You can see it in the video where the bike sort of drifts off line but its not really steering and at any useful speed the forces in the wheels and engine exceed anything you could generate with a weight move - its why superlight wheels are so desirable and one of the downsides to wankel engines in bikes .
MX jumping is a good display of how much the wheel forces can control direction, they use the brakes in flight to do all sorts of crazy stuff.
The speeds at which I did the excersise at were about 60mph entries and 40mph exits (off throttle turn as no hands on bars)
Make of that what you will.
I wouldn't say pushbikes are a bad example. Infact I'd say it's a perfect example of the theory, as all the forces look more exaggerated so you can easily see what's going on.
But like I have said until he does this in a standard seating position, with no hands on the bars, and no run off on the side (just open) so he doesn't subconsciously stop himself turning, then I'm gonna have to go with what I was taught, and my own personal experiences.
Which can't be wrong as I experienced them lol
Surprisingly wikipedia has some interesting observations;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering)
So it not really the lean its the torque on the chassis from your legs that initiates the required counter steering then the CoG shift can contribute a bit
Its quite interesting if you think about it in reverse; when we set up for a high speed, high lean turn we get to move our weight to the inside of the turn well before we get there to avoid upsetting things when everything is loaded to the max but the bike does not go into some crazy steering but waits until we initiate the turn at the bars, as we exit we can straighten the bike using bar input before we start to get ourselves more centred on the seat.
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 01, 2020, 02:16:24 PMHe's going down a track with dirt either side, so he's gonna be preventing it turning, at least subconsciously.
Ah yes, that's why he went straight into the dirt at the end ;D ;D