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Messages - Stout Johnson

General Discussion / Re: GP Bikes beta18c
June 28, 2020, 06:13:30 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 27, 2020, 10:45:20 PMThere seems to be something very wrong with the slipper clutch. I'm not 100% sure but I think this is only a problem since 18c.

@PiBoSo: During long off-throttle phases in high gears and at max. lean, the clutch sometimes seems to disengage completely, even when giving it throttle.
Mimo recorded this clip demonstrating the issue: https://streamable.com/fmlgfr
I have had this issue before beta18c. Just to make sure we are not following wrong leads here.

Quote from: Vini on June 28, 2020, 12:11:18 AMWhile the engine brake feels fine at upright braking and quickly makes the rear step out, it is not pulling the bike inwards enough while cornering.
I totally agree with your second observation - the bike not being pulled inwards enough. Concerning the engine brake while upright, I have to disagree. You can get the rear to lock heavily just by braking moderately hard and no downshifts. This is totally exaggerated. My observation only relate to the Schwaben M2 bike, I have not tried any mod bikes. Maybe our differing observations are bike dependant. We agree on the general problems though.

Quote from: h106frp on June 28, 2020, 12:47:09 AM[...]VR appears to be unable to control a turn with the ammount of lean to negotiate a turn excessive.

[...]the longer you have to hold a turn the more lean the VR feeds in until the front folds
I agree, I have made similar observations. In some corners, you end up with significantly higher lean angles than it would be realistic for that kind of corner. I have the feeling that whichever bug is causing the camber corner problems is also causing this strange lean behaviour. But I am not totally sold on the VR being the cause, at least not the only cause. Sometimes I think that the suspensions simulation might be involved in that?

@Piboso: GPB has so much potential, there are so many things that are beautiful in GPB. If you can tune the grip/tire temps relation, tune the engine braking and slipper clutch simulation then it would probably be a good start. If you then would be able to detect and correct what is happening in camber corners, look into the tire issues in wet then GPB might be there physics wise. I politely ask you to please make these physics issues your number one priorities. They are on the table and many of us here are willing to help and test. But please concentrate on physics - this is where GPB used to have its strength compared to other titles. 

The core physics need to feel believable and realistic. That's what brought me to GPB in the first place. I want to be able to a realistic feel for what the bike and the tires are doing. I want to be able to ride on a wet and drying track and try hit the drying spots on the racing line and get a feel for how much I can push on the brakes and on the throttle. I want to experience the slides and skids. That's what GPB is all about for me and what used to be fun.  But at the moment it does not feel believable anymore.
General Discussion / Re: GP Bikes beta18c
June 24, 2020, 09:37:58 AM
Quote from: Vini on June 20, 2020, 07:02:32 PMAfter my first real session in 18c, I have to say that the front is worse.
The low-speed oscillations are back and the front sometimes kicks back very aggressively when trying to stand the bike up with the throttle (out of 90° corners).
The rear tyre feels much nicer now strangely. Powerslides are smooother.
I agree, the rear seems to be better with beta18c. Front is worse. The front kicks you are describing, seem to not only come from the tire, but also from the virtual rider. Those kicks only happen when accelerating hard out of corner, so it's not so much induced by tire. The virtual rider seems to be programmed to use more force on the handlebars when accelerating hard. That in itself is right since more force is needed. But when trying to lift the bike up, especially when going from left to right or vice versa, the forces seem to be critical. Also the virtual rider seems to have super-human reaction time and reacts to different scenarios in milliseconds which osciallates the front.

My suggestions for Piboso:
1) Virtual rider should use less force on handlebars on 'critical aspects' like lifting bike up- e.g. lifting bike up from very low lean angles is very critical point, since counter steering in max lean can result in lowside. In real life when lifting bike up from max lean, a rider subconsciously lets the bike stand up a bit (pushing bike up away from rider while gently counter-steering) so that the bike reaches a lean angle where not on critical lean with almost no grip reserve and then counter steering with a bit more force, shifting weight etc.
the virtual rider should have a feeling for when critical forces are applied 

2) Virtual rider should react more like a human, therefore not oscillating and therefore making things worse often times. In general when riding a bike, especially on tarmac, it should always be only smooth inputs on the handlebars, much is done with weight transfer of the rider's body and only very slight steering inputs.

watch this clip @~18seconds: Stoner's bike is wiggling because of the weight transfer of the bike and the suspensions work, but he is keeping the steering input almost constant and not jerking, that's why the bike settles.
Quote from: h106frp on June 18, 2020, 10:16:08 PM[...] After a bit of reading that is apparently the perceived wisdom on chassis flex and why super stiff chassis is a bad idea for bikes, as you lean the bike over the 'bumps' still occur vertically but the suspension can only translate the vector of travel so the displacement is less than it would be for upright, as the displacement in the damper rod movement is less the damping contributed is equally less effective so we become dependant on the lost motion in the chassis construction to contribute some of the damping.

Obviously anybodys guess if this is how its applied in GPB!

I totally agree. Chassis flex is very important, especially during high lean angles, as the suspension is almost non-effective anymore.

If the suspension is acting as irl, then chassis flex should be similarly important as it is in real life. Piboso could probably bring light into this matter.

Another important factor is the tires acting as a sort of suspension.

So essentially, you have front and rear suspension, chassis and also front and rear tire acting as suspension-like entities and therefore possibly affecting grip level. Not sure how that is reflected in GPB?

Quote from: Vini on June 19, 2020, 01:04:04 AMOn a side note, you guys really need to stop testing bikes at Victoria. The simple, sweeping layout masks almost all handling issues of bikes.
Similarily, aids (including TC/AW) should be turned off when testing physics and high direct lean values should be used, as this too avoids "fake stability".
Totally agree with all here, escpecially the part on direct lean.

Quote from: Vini on June 19, 2020, 01:04:04 AMThe track is simply not bike dependent at all, that's partially why real MotoGP races are always so exciting there.
On Victoria the only turns worth testing are lucky heights (to some degree) and especially the right tigh turn afterwards (turn 10). Some info can also be obtained by accelerating through "Stoner Corner" (turn 3). All the other parts are really not giving much information.
Quote from: PiBoSo on June 16, 2020, 10:33:11 AMThe M2 engine braking curve needs tuning for sure.
Also, maybe the slipper clutch simulation is not fully correct yet.

As for the stock tyres...
They are a long-standing problem that will have to be addressed sooner rather than later.
There are a couple problems:
1) There is too much grip when the tyre is slipping at the max lean angle
2) However, when the grip is lost, it drops too quickly, making it almost impossible to control the bike
The algorithms are correct, it should be a simple matter of tuning the tyres' physics data.
I think that some mods already did a good job improving the tyres' behaviour.
First off, thank you for responding Piboso. Also thank you for your honest response. I salute that, very professional on your part.

Looking at what you write and also seeing what h106 (who has a ton of knowledge in that respect, I conversed with him privately on that matter) wrote, I think in all likelihood the slipper clutch simulation might not be main problem, but rather the engine braking curve. That would also explain why it happens even with no downshifts at all, only braking. Even then the rear locks up rather easily.

The other big problem is the simulation of the tires. First off, the relation between temps and grip needs to be realistic.

Secondly, the simulation of the tire temps needs to be realistic. As far as I know you account for 3 different areas of the tire areas ("temperature rings") which provide different heating areas - center, left, right? This is much too crude from my point of view.
Even for cars, tire simulation could be more sophisticated, because even there the stress on the tires changes rapidly. But for cars, the tires at least are on contact with the asphalt almost all the time. For bikes, depending on the lean, some areas of the tire are very far away from the contact patch and the surface and are rapidly cooling when not "under stress".
You can see how fast tire temps on the surface vary, increasing almost immediately under stress and cooling almost instantly when stress decreases. Even for cars with tyres acting almost everytime as a contact patch this is very obvious. This should be even more obvious with bike tires as there is only a small contact patch and therefore only a narrow contact patch ring during a certain lean angle. The majority of a motorcycle tire (most temperature rings) is not acting as a contact patch and therfore for the most part cooling. For bikes, the cooling should be much more rapid compared to car tires - for example when leaning from the left and then to the right because then the left flank would be far away from that contact patch, away from the asphalt and getting almost no stress (except in the deep areas of the tire due to macro-deformation) and would cool off in the surrounding air.

If you would implement a very thorough tire temperature simulation with numerous temperature rings, you might get rid of many problems with grip simulation. You might even be able to simulate high-siders - which is very crude at the moment and always comes very much delayed at the moment in GPB. It would be the ultimate testament to your simulation if you could get that simulated.

And having many different contact patch/tire temperature rings might help simulated it much better. The area under extreme stress while spinning (overheating and spinning) gets less stress if the rider releases throttle and the spinning disappears, the tires cools off very fast on the upper surface and the rubber does not melt anymore but becomes firmer again. All of a sudden there is an immediate increase in grip. Also the lean of the bike may change during that process and the contact patch is now on a cooler "ring" (a different area of the tire where there had been less stress and therefore less heat) - that significant rise in grip creates inertia in the tires which works its way up over the bike into the rider and propels him off the bike. As stated above, for all that to be realistic you also need a realistic connection between tire temps and grip level as asked by H106 here --> relation between temps and grip.

Talking about all of this, one thing comes to my mind. Some years ago, when you implemented the simulation of rev changes with lean due to the circumference differences of a tire (increasing wheel velocity with higher lean due to smaller circumference), you implemented some sort of circumference measuring in GPB. Could that possibly also be usable for the problem of differing "contact patch/tire temperature rings"?

I think it would not be too hard to implement? Of course you'd have to simulate tire temps for each "ring". But maybe there do not need to be too many rings. I'd say having like 11 rings (left, ride) per side and one wider ring for the center of the tire might be sufficient? If the center ring is being used for 5° of lean to each side (so 10° l/r overall). That would leave ~ 55° of lean left for 11 rings. That would account for one temperature ring per 5° of lean. That might just be sophisticated enough for relatively realistic tire temps and therefor calculation of actual grip, depending on the lean and the tire temps of that tire area that is being used for a certain amount of lean. That might even make the sim less dependent on trying to tune the current tire physics data because the differing tire temps and therfore grip levels per lean would make it more realistic in that respect already. After all, it might be impossible to tweak tire physics data and expect realistic behaviour (e.g. realistic slides, high-siders) if the tire temps model is so crude as it is now. What do you think?
Probably Vini, but it is sad that a bike "simulator" hast such massive flaws out of the box. Even I - as a long year GPB enthusiast - am deterred that the bike created by dev of the sim does not reflect realistic behaviour. I can only assume what people might think that try the sim for the first time. It has to be hard for newbies, because of the physics and it for sure takes a learning curve for every simulator. But the underlying motorcycle physics need to be on point, especially for those who seek a simulator. Those who are interested in GPB over stuff like Milestone Games are for the most part people that have much real-life riding experience, to a fair share people that have raced in real life and therefore know how a bike and tires should behave. And I am pretty sure GPB with the M2 has a lot of potential to attract, but as it is now will rather do the opposite. Also I think for modders, it would be good to have reference for tire sim and how it is meant to be.

I would be much interested in where the big boss stands on this.

Quote from: Vini on June 15, 2020, 11:03:04 PMI agree, the M2 has a few problems.
That said, mod bikes have surpassed the default bikes handling a long time ago.
Which mod bikes are available for b18, which one can you recommend?
Dear Piboso,

I haven't had a look at a version of GPB for quite some time, but out of curiosity I installed beta18b. There's a lot of things I like but also a few things that are really frustrating.

+ nice new addition of Assen (could use a bit more detail though, especially grandstands)
+ nice Moto2 bike (engine sound could be better though)
+ sightly improved tire simulation
+ nice rider animations and hangoff styles

- even on moderate downshifts (nowhere near high revs on downshifts), the rear locks up; the rear even locks up under braking when there is NO downshifting at all. this is not realistic at all - is this a broken slipper clutch simulation?
- the tires heat up very strangely and become almost unrideable after 2 laps; only way around that is to brake and downshift ultra conservatively and try to keep revs on downshifts under 40% of max rev which is absolutely unrealistic
watch this video for example on how aggressively real downshifts are made without rear locking up

- tire temps and grip simulation is too crude and artificial: tire grip out of the pits is best, after a few laps on track tires tend to slide very much; so in GPB with cold tires the bike has perfect grip and with warmer tires the bike has less grip and tends to slide out rather randomly - very strange; in reality it is the other way aroud
--> I know this is supposed to simulate overheating of tires, but it is broken; first there is too much grip with cold tires and the way the tires overheat is exaggerated in GPB; in reality overheating tires do generate less grip than optimal tire temperatures, but still more grip than cold tires. overheating tires do generate a bit less grip and the tires do spin a tad bit more (so accelerating is a bit slower) and the tires slide a bit more under ultra-heavy braking (so one has to brake a bit earlier), but they just do not magically slide or spin out like in GPB; in GPB when tires overheat a bit, the bike even tends to slide out with almost no lean angle; also in GPB you can brake latest when shifting down ultra conservatively (ultra late) whereas in reality you can brake latest when shifting down aggressively and using the engine brake power of high revs.
- in GPB the grip simulation has a tendency to be only on the extremes: either there is absolute perfect grip or no grip at all and the bike sliding like crazy

Overall I still like GPB a lot: I like the suspension simulation, the overall feeling of the brakes in GPB. That is what still creates the "itch" I felt when I discovered GPB more than 10years ago when I did lap after lap after lap trying to master the bike. But at the moment that joy goes away rather quickly because the tire simulation seems to be rather crude in terms of tire temps and grip simulation. Also the way the rear locks up under even moderate braking and downshifting is absolutely a turn-off and makes riding long stints with realistic braking impossible. At the moment I "enjoy" getting out of pits and using the grip of the cold (!) tires for one lap, after that it becomes a sliding festival or trying to "walk on eggs" with ultra conservative braking and downshifting and trying to have the tires in "non-icy icy sliding mode"... which is annoying and I quit after 15mins.

@Piboso: If you find the time, I really would like to hear how you explain the differences in what your sim does and what happens in reality on braking and downshifting (as shown in the video I posted above). Is there possibly a problem with the slipper clutch simulation? And where and how are you trying to improve GPB in terms of tire simulation?

Kind regards

You might find that intersting. Well explained imho.
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
September 10, 2019, 09:49:51 AM

Very interesting camera angle. It gives a great sense of speed and how much brute force those MotoGP beasts have. And also shows how often the front wheel is off the ground or barely touching.
Off Topic / Re: FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018
September 10, 2019, 09:46:31 AM
General Discussion / Re: New official track
December 20, 2018, 09:44:08 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 20, 2018, 09:15:10 AM
My 2c: it has to be a modern track, something MotoGP or WSBK race on frequently.

Local / club / obscure tracks = big no no (no matter how nice they are).
Oldies = big no no. People tend to live in the present. There are exceptions but well, they are exceptions.

Brno, Mugello and even Portimao look reasonable to me.

+1    I would agree with that summary.
General Discussion / Re: New official track
December 04, 2018, 12:55:13 PM
Quote from: PiBoSo on December 04, 2018, 12:53:01 PM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on December 04, 2018, 12:18:25 PM
Given the choices in the poll  ::), I vote for other:

-Assen POST-2006

No second-choice?
General Discussion / Re: New official track
December 04, 2018, 12:18:25 PM
Given the choices in the poll  ::), I vote for other:

-Assen POST-2006
General Discussion / Re: New official track
December 04, 2018, 06:32:16 AM
Quote from: PiBoSo on December 03, 2018, 10:14:12 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on December 03, 2018, 10:08:31 PM
Donnington gets my vote but A proper and current version of Assen would be a better choice in my opinion

To be honest, I strongly dislike the post-2005 Assen.
In my opinion they destroyed what made the circuit special, to shorten and "normalize" the layout. All purely for monetary reasons  >:(
Does that mean current Assen is a no-option? Like I said in a different thread, in my personal opinion, you should not rule out certain options just because of your personal opinion. Let the community decide. If they also majoritarianly dislike new layout, then discard the option. If not then consider it. I personally like the shortened Assen layout very much.

As for tracks in general: I am a bit torn between classic courses like Mugello, Jerez which would be a great fit, but have already quite good mod versions. So the surplus of having the track as an official track would be moderate. Then there are courses like Assen, Misano, Valencia that have not a very good mod version.

My vote would be for Assen (short version or both?), Valencia, Donington or Sepang. Assen, Donington and Sepang would also be great tracks for WRS, Valencia probably not so much because it would be hard to overtake there.
Nice! Judged upon the vegatation pictured above, I would say you still have fairly warm weather where you live. So enjoy that babe and always ride safely mate!
Quote from: HornetMaX on November 08, 2018, 08:58:40 AM
D-day (as in decision day) getting closer.
Keep us posted mate. But I assume we will know as soon as your same is changed to TuonoMaX  :P