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Cleaned up the electronics a bit too. It'll be nice not having to be so careful when setting up.

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The cover turned out fine! A bit bulky maybe, but I'm happy!
The little rear brake thing seems to do it's work good too!



I want to paint the motor part, but at the moment I'm too lazy to take it apart.

Had a little go on the 3D-printer again and tried to tidy the insides a little. Turned out quite good! The motor driver pcb mount didn't really work out the way I thought though so I'll make a second version.
Also a cover is printing right now. Hopefully it will fit well. Had a small mishap with the filament (didn't really think about how much was left), so it'll be a two color piece..
Glad I noticed sooner rather than later.

Great work with the footage and editing Gzehoo! The helicam looks great.

Good discussion anyway!
I will try to do some calculations myself as well but taking into account all the reactionary forces makes it quite complicated.
Ultimately, I don't think an exact calculation is necessary in order to identify the dependencies between the different parameters. Thought experiments are the way to go in this case in my opinion.

Absolutely!
No, I agree with you there. In the end it is about what 'feels' right when you're on the rig. That doesn't always match up with what 'should feel' right.
My thought is that either way, I'm going to be building a seat with a tank to hold on to. When that is finished, I'll make it tiltable and get a strong friend or two to act as actuators and just experiment.

Very intersted in your analysis of the force feedback, specifically under acceleration.
Would it be possible to make another riding video where you show a synced graph of the logged raw force feedback data?
The behaviour while wheelying and sliding would be especially interesting.

I'll take a look at it as soon as i get the time, hopefully today.
Sliding.. Have you tried hardcore mode? Most of the sliding I do is on the fairings in the gravel trap.

What kind of sliding do you have in mind? Power sliding out of curves I can probably do with the MotoGP bikes. Into curves... Don't know..

Feels like we're not going to reach an agreement on this right now, but I will definitely pick this up again (preferably with your input!) when I start planning the possibilities of a motion rig. Thank you for taking the time Vini!

OT I am currently debugging the force feedback in the game, it is quite harsh still even if it is much better with the latest controller. Filtering on the controller side don't seem to help much, but I'm giving it another go tuning the bike direct steer settings.
Low setting in game and high setting in the controller seems to be better than the other way around.

[The only forces you consciously experience are the ones you have to actively resist.]

By your logic, you'd have to move the simulator in such a way that it precisely counteracts your own movements so that your body stays vertical. But then hanging off and not hanging off would feel the same way which is not accurate either since hanging off in reality requires effort against gravity

I think this is where our opinions (enterpretations of reality) differ.
If I'm going in a straight line and hanging off, all I'm doing is moving my g-vector from pointing straight down through the bike to the side of it paralell to the bike's g-vector. Moving requires effort ,being a large mammal like myself, and staying there without cornering requires strength to hang on.
Then when I start to lean the bike, the lateral forces, or rather centripetal acceleration, comes into play. The body can't tell the difference or separate these forces, so if I were to close my eyes at this moment (scary thought), I wouldn't be able to accurately point out the direction of gravitation. We agree on that too?

This is what I was talking about earlier and which confused me as well: For the design of your simulator, you need to stay in the reference frame of the rider, which is the opposite of all those motorcycle vector sketches you find in literature. The fact that hanging off allows the bike-rider system as a whole to turn faster or the fact that it reduces the bike's lean angle is not relevant to the forces the rider experiences (or at least it's negligible).

I say it's highly relevant. The difference in hanging off a bike going in a straight line and one cornering is indeed noticable.

The only forces you consciously experience are the ones you have to actively resist.
When staying stationary in the seat, the combination of gravity and cornering force pushes your straight in the seat, requiring no resisting on your part.
As soon as you hang off (your lower body), gravity pulls you away from the bike requiring effort to stay seated.

Up until here we are pretty much on the same page.
I still think that hanging off going straight and hanging off in a corner makes a difference in experience though. 

The cornering force on the other hand still pushes you into the bike, meaning the only force you have to resist is the gravity pointing straight down, which is exactly the same you currently have to resist when moving out of your stationary chair.

If your perception could separate those forces, yes! What I'm saying is you can't just pull the cornering force out of the equation and not replace it with anything if you want to maintain (quasi-) equilibrium. I'll make a sketch of it and try to calculate. Maybe I'll find that I'm wrong!

Still a lot easier to build than a full motion bike rig, though

Indeed, but it solves a problem I don't have

Good video, really shows the realism much better!

Thank you!

Regarding our physics discussion, the differentiation between hanging off and not hanging off is fundamentally wrong. Just think it a step further: It would mean that there is a special distance to the bike you need to achieve at all times in order to hit the sweet spot where the force simulation is accurate. Any deviation from that would result in an incorrect feeling.

I can see that I'm failing to communicate what it is that I mean. I'm not saying there is a "correct" hang off amount. I agree with you that as it is now, any hanging off messes up the sense of balance. Leaning the simulator rig in the direction you are turning would make that even worse. Leaning it too much in the other direction would mess it up equally. I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, you make good points!
Do you agree with me that, if you were to lean a motion rig in any direction, it would be the opposite way of the turn?

The extra forces created by hanging off are purely created by your own positioning while the external forces acting on the bike-rider (or simulator-player) system as a whole remain the same.

The shift in the rider's center of gravity affects the lean angle of the bike you need to make a given turn at a given speed. So even if the external forces are the same, the relation between the internal forces are different (lean angle/hang off = constant, or something like that)

You are also not hanging off everytime the bike is leaning, for example when swerving around on a straight you are fully tucked in.
Lastly, your differentiation would mean that the physics are not continuous which cannot be true: The force calculation at the transition away from exactly 0° lean angle would change instantaneously in order to reflect your theory on the influence of hanging off.

Yeah, that is a good point too. A depth mapping sensor would be required to get a somewhat correct assuption of rig lean.. Maybe that could keep the lean/hang ratio constant (or just tap into the trackIR data..). I'd like to go hang out at Cruden for a year or so to try stuff out..

The swivel design is a compromise in order to replicate some of the relative movements hanging off and leaning produces on a real bike. The mounting height and the bike-lean-angle-to-controller-swivel-angle-scaling need to be finetuned, which is not being properly reflected in your sketches.
If they are correctly adjusted, the movements between your head (which is where most of your senses come from) and the handlebar would be quite close to reality:

Your sketch is a lot better than mine!
I feel that the radius required to make the swivel work for my riding style would make it very difficult to fabricate. This is just my stuborn mind though, I haven't tried it, so I can't really say.

Late.. As always!

Here is my paint anyway..
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11STs-XgpLCYvakUxvjK3UZQLd9p3acEx

Hi Chris, it is easy here to tell what bike the pnt is for, BUT you need to use the GPB format for naming files so that it is not a problem later or for the database.

Example: Road CBR900RR 97 SparkyStunts.pnt   (Class. Model, Year, Name) it is needed but few follow the rule. Thanks for the future

Thats a long example but yo show how it works for knowing where a pnt belongs.

Its a nightmare for me on the database with hundreds of pnt files that dont say what they are for

DD

Aah, I didn't even think about that, I was in a bit of a hurry.
I'll look into it and fix it ASAP, thanks for the heads up DD!

Late.. As always!

Here is my paint anyway..
https://drive.google.com/open?id=11STs-XgpLCYvakUxvjK3UZQLd9p3acEx

This shows the feel of the controller and the head tracking a bit better I think.

[Again, all this is only applicable if you want to lean off your seat/chair/rig]

I agree with Vini: you have to fight against gravity all the time.
Even when you look at professional simulators such as the moto trainer (even if you don't control the rider), the overall feeling seems to be that the bike is too heavy.

That's exactly my point. The likes of moto trainer just ignores the lack of external forces. It's like a mechanical bull, nothing like racing a bike.

Love your rig! Must weigh half a ton?

The extra forces you generate by hanging off are the same whether you hang off your stationary chair or hang off a real bike while riding, it's just gravity. Therefore these forces don't have to be considered in the design of the simulator/controller. Note that we are talking about the forces acting on you, not the forces acting on the bike, which would be influenced by the overall shift in center of gravity produced by hanging off.

I disagree with you here. When racing a real bike (not just riding) it's not "just gravity". It is the resulting force I'm talking about. I had my inner three-year-old sketch it up for me:

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The important thing to keep in mind here is that in real life we have L+g. That makes the percieved resulting force = R
In my seat by the computer, sadly I don't have access to an L. However, I can't just remove it from the equation (like you can see it the fatal second row incident). We need to replicate R, like in the third row.
Again, all this is only applicable if you want to lean off your seat/chair/rig.

This slight change in angle is exactly what you get when you hang off your chair: A bit of "extra" gravity pulling you slightly away from (the center of) your seat instead of merely pointing straight into it.

Your idea of tilting the bike in the opposite direction would result in a very strange feeling because even though the relative position to the bike might be correct, your sense of balance would know that something is wrong. Your inner ear could tell that your body is leaning. On a real bike, this is not the case because the cornering force counteracts the gravity acting on your inner ear, resulting in your sense of balance always staying aligned to the bike.

What you are explaining here is exactly what leaning the bike the "wrong way" would remedy (Only applicable when hanging off your chair). Again, we have to replicate the resulting force "R" by only using the availible force "g", which needs to be pointing the same way "R" would. To do this, we rotate whatever you are sitting on the -(angle) of R.

If you closed your eyes while riding piggyback you would not be able to tell how far the bike is leaning.
This means that for your simulator, your body cannot be leaning at all because any sense of tilt would be wrong.

This also only applies if your'e sitting perfectly straight on the bike. In that case, no lean movement is necessary, I agree to that.

I will stop with the off-topic now but you are actually way closer to the "perfect simulation" than you might think.

Me too, soon, but first my inner child couldn't help sketching what he thinks is strange with Swivel:

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(Maybe a paralell movement would be closer to real life, but harder to make)

Nickname: Chris Beeves
Nationality: Swedish
Starting Number: 42
Team: ASL Racing (O.o)
Bike: Honda CBR600RR

You don't feel lateral forces when riding a real bike, though. The leaning always makes the resulting force vector acting on your body (gravity + cornering force) point straight into the seat.

This means that any leaning of the seat without the corresponding cornering force will result in an incorrect force vector that's not pointing straight into the seat anymore.

The way you are currently sitting on your chair is already simulating the appropriate (lateral) forces required to trick your brain.
All that is missing is the relative movement between the bars and you, which would be achieved by the having the handlebar swivel around/under you.

That would be true when you're sitting perfectly still an upright on your seat.
When I drive on track, I don't do that. So when I drive a simulator, I don't want to do that. I want to hang off! 
I also need to hang off in order to control the rider with trackIR, and in the future VR.

Riding a right corner and hanging off, the resulting force of gravity, acceleration and centripetal acceleration would not point straight down through the bike. Rather at an angle pointing from the right side of the bike somewhere through it's center (depending on how much you hang off and your weight). To replicate that force when standing still (in a simulator for example), you would need to lean the whole bike to the left, not just the handlebars. Am I making sense?

If I didn't draw like a two-year-old, a sketch would probably help..
Buuuut, this is probably a discussion for another thread, another time.

I think a full motion rig with moving seat would actually feel less real because of the lack of G-forces. You would constantly be fighting gravity when hanging off because it cannot be countered by cornering forces.

We can always play with the g-force that we DO have. The 9,82m/s^2 straight down. If you keep that straight under you when hanging off it should in theory fool the mind if you're using VR.  So if you tilt the bike left when going right, the force vector of gravity should be in the same(ish) direction as the cornering force would be.. I don't know if this is possible to implement yet, but I look forward to trying in the future.