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Jaque and Nakano clones 

So the only thing still holding it together is business interests?

So from all that I wrote, only this troubles you???!

The rest you wrote is simply that you don't believe in anything the EU has done or will ever do. Totally your right, but not a lot I can do about that.
I can only advise to get on a plane (quickly) and settle in the UK. I'm sure they will welcome you all right. Maybe

You just keep missing the point. Still not entirely sure is it on purpose. I honestly don't care under what government I live as long as it means progress for the whole society.
I don't have love or hate for EU, just disappointment.

I'm afraid that I'am not wlecomed yet in most of EU. Just Germany and Ireland so far. Not European enough for the rest I guess. 

For example, reading Croatian media a month ago Boris Johnson was a former mayor of London. Today he's a former mayor of London and an idiot. Period.
Don't know anything about him, but apparently he became an idiot in the last month or so.

He's not an idiot (strict sense), of course. But he spectacularly promised 350 millions GBP/week to be used for the NHS instead of being "given" to the EU: the number was utterly wrong, the promise totally impossible to materialize (and he knew both things very well) and after his camp won, he stepped down from everything. Maybe that contributed a bit in tarnishing his image ...

Ok, see the point. A bit rude, but ok.
So tell me when a representative of the EU, can't remember which one, promises hundreds of millions € from EU development funds to my country and we end up with a few million, why isn't he labeled as an idiot by the media?
Doesn't seem objective, or fair. Which should be the foundation of free (european) media. 

What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?

By who ?

So from all that I wrote, only this troubles you???!

Primarily media, then analysts, PR campaigns (spin doctors), etc...

Can see the similar thing happening now in UK.
For example, reading Croatian media a month ago Boris Johnson was a former mayor of London. Today he's a former mayor of London and an idiot. Period.
Don't know anything about him, but apparently he became an idiot in the last month or so.

I like you the same, but I'm glad that your country has decided to join the european project.

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

See I am not. Not for any emotional reasons, just purely pragmatic.
I don't know anyone, still living here, who profited from our EU membership. Not one single person or small/family business.
Secondly, 3-4 years ago when we had the referendum to join any form of criticism or even a call for a public debate was ridiculed by mainstream media and political parties. Getting in at any cost was a national goal. It reminded me of Orwell's 1984. 
As a result only about 30% of voters bothered to vote in a all time low turnout. And still here we are. In the same problems we were 3 years ago. Only a little bit poorer.
So what exactly does EU offer that couldn't be done without it? What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?
Do we still live in an age of dogmatic idols? 

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Both sides signed agreements that work both ways. Both EU goods and Swiss goods have same treatmant. It's not one sided as you are trying to present it.
Even more important, more goods come to CH then CH exports to EU.

The min wage thing is a purely CH-internal discussion, the EU has not bearing on that. So it's up to the CH people to decide.
If CH pays 1CHF per heart transplant, no heart surgeon will go there. Up to them to strike the good balance between how many heart surgeons they need and how much they want to pay for them.

So you don't agree that min wage thing is a filter to keep unwanted migrants out?

I can tell you first hand that people in CH universities (where my wife still works occasionally, we've spent a year there) are *very* concerned about what will happen, because they can see beyond trade deals, unlike others.

I can tell you first hand that so far the only place I was labeled as a "Slav not to be trusted" is ...drumrool... Switzerland. So Iam not disillusioned about world. I am just trying to say the way things really are, and not idealize any system. Regardless if it's called EU or non EU.
Do you like me more now then you did 3 years ago when I wasn't in the EU?

Bozo, the EU tries to put its principles forward. Countries that do not want to adhere can stay out.
For trade negotiations the EU is ok to strike a more favorable deal if some of its principles are accepted and applied. It's very straightforward.

You think CH and UK are strong enough to bend that ? Good, let's see. For CH at least we should know soon.

By putting it's principles forward you mean strike the fear of God if anyone else thinks of doing what UK just did? 
When you "give" something to someone and later ask for it back, to me it shows weakness not principles.

Yes I do belive nothing will change in the long run. UK will join EFTA and carry on doing business with EU just like CH. Even more they wont be forced to pour money into development funds like CH because UK imports from EU are far greater then CH. And a lack of those would hurt EU far more then in case of CH.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/

No. On your own link it says "From a continental perspective, 44.8% of Switzerland's total exports by value in 2015 were delivered to other European trade partners."[/quote]

EFTA and CEFTA countries are also parts of Europe, just not EU. 

So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

No. I'm implying that the Eu is telling CH right now that if CH withdraws the agreement on free movement of people, the EU will withdraw the favorable commercial conditions put in place with CH.
Actually it's not me implying it, it has been declared very clearly by the relevant people involved.
[/quote]

Ok, but there is still the non minimum wage thing. What about that? They may want our best doctors, scientists and whatever, but would you want to go work there for nothing? Because they may offer you exactly that...

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You're mixing up stuff man.

What the EU says is: if you want to trade with the EU with the same conditions as EU states, then you have to adopt this or that rule.
Each state is free to decline the offer of course, in which case a one-to-one deal is negotiated. Of course the conditions can't be the same.

You're the one tying free trading with free movement, not me Negotiation implies "barganing" not implying your will to the other party right?

The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

But it's wasted time to discuss this: we'll see how it ends soon.

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/
With Germany being half of it.
If you click Deficits an even more interesting story unfolds. I am sure the first 4 countries would easily give up exports to Switzerland in the name of "european spirit" 
So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

Some interesting statistics if you take a look at UK as well (to stay somewhat on topic)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/
About 35% of UK exports are with EU, on the other hand 7 out of top 10 countries that have more export then import with UK are members of EU.
I don't think it's in EU's best interest to break free trade contracts with UK. 

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

That's a prediction and not a fact. Let's see.
But even it the EU will be weaker than today (which I don' think), it would be easier to deal with China as the EU, instead of as France or Spain.

In terms of size, population and finacial power it will certainly be weaker. Unless you know another european-ish country that could replace UK?
Turkey? Israel? Maghreb countries? What about civil rights? Or are we going to look away?

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me... 

I think we're better off without them because the don't like some fundamental EU principles, that's all.
And it's unfortunate: the UK is a major european nation, I'd much prefer them to be pro-EU and working from the inside to make it better. But, as we've seen, this is not possible at the moment so a split is inevitable.

Of course it doesn't mean the EU and the UK will be at war in 2 months (even if, commercially, it will be something fairly close to a war).

I think so too, we'll replace them with Tunisia, Marocco and Israel. Those are some excellent examples of fundamental EU principles. 

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You mean the UK (or any EU state) has no option to trade with China or the US or India or Brasil ? 

No I'am talking about Switzerland, pay attention.  The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me... 

You didn't, but the link between the minimum wage and the discussion is weak.

I would disagree. It shows that there are always options, you just need to be creative and think out of the box.

Or maybe because they just don't want a minimum wage, independently of EU immigrants.
Switzerland is already part of Schengen: if they didn't want EU immigrants and had the capability to be out of the EU market, Switzerland would pull out of Schengen. But they haven't and don't plan to in the near future ... too much business at stake ...

From a link I posted above:
"Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he said.

"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."

Secondly Schengen has nothing to do with business. Switzerland still has customs paperwork when doing business with EU, same as any EFTA country. Free trade thing is about not paying customs fees, not total "freedom".

Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Why? Because it's got advanced manufactoring industry? Don't think so...
But it does have options. To trade with China, U.S., Russia, even India, Brasil, and other developing countries.

If things continue to evolve as they are right now in 100 Years Europe will be a poor holiday resort for the hard working Chinese and Indian workforce.
And only because we, Europeans, won't face the fact that world is changing and we are on the losing end.
Same could be said about the EU. If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

@BozoCRO: it wasn't the EU that tried to set up the minimum wage, that's up to the Swiss. And has nothing to do with the discussion.
The EU has some negotiating power over Switzerland and it seems they are finally about to use it (including for recent changes in banking "transparency").

Please quote me where have I said that EU set up the referendum, or I will just assume you are spinning my arguments to discredit me.

Swiss people voted against the minimum wage law to discourage immigrants from coming in the first place, not because EU has any real power over them.
Banking transparency could be used against EU also. So far they only release information that was asked for. What if something unwanted leaked?

Ontopic, This whole carrot and stick game between EU and UK reminds me of sanctions EU imposed on Russia few years back.
So far Russia survived this horror 

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own.

You may read the news about that, because it's changing.

ok, lets lets assume EU makes Switzerland accept unwanted immigrants.

So they come and get offered jobs/wellfare for 1CHF a month, because http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

I am guessing direct democracy is a bitch 

Max when/if UK leaves EU it can once again join EFTA and still enjoy free trade preferential treatment.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own. They have very advanced political conscience insured by referendums, so their political leaders have a hard time pushing "agendas". Just recently they voted against setting a minimum wage law.

I mean they got away with keeping Hitlers gold, like EU is going to scare them?!   

I cannot wait for you to try and sell this idea to the new eastern european members- i have worked there (away from the tourist destinations) and i can tell you first hand they are far more insular than the UK ever was.

I live in one of those new eastern european members. Our lifes haven't changed all that much since we joined. Only the people who wanted to leave got their wish granted.
Overall small and medium business took an impact with more imported products on she shelfs, and only the big companies had success with exports. Of course there are always exceptions.

People had big expectations (specially regarding corruption and law making) when we joined and got disappointed overall, so no surprise about the lack of "european spirit".
This is turning out to be just another shit in a long history of shits being served to us under the label of a premium steak. 

R6 was the very first mod for GPBikes. If memory serves me right it was made by a french guy.
SS 600 bikeset was made later by  GPB Italia guys