Quote from: HornetMaX on September 11, 2018, 01:09:05 PMhttps://twitter.com/i/status/1038760231566757888
I missed the race, do you have a video showing the Miller/Marquez thing ?
Hard but normal racing overtake imho.
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Quote from: HornetMaX on September 11, 2018, 01:09:05 PMhttps://twitter.com/i/status/1038760231566757888
I missed the race, do you have a video showing the Miller/Marquez thing ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on September 09, 2018, 07:44:50 PMStrange logic. Just imagine someone asking Pedrosa and Dovizioso to shake hands. If Pedrosa said "there is no need to, we are fine" you would assume he is having a problem with Dovizioso?!
If there is no problem, then why not doing the handshake and prove it ?
Saying "I have no problem with MM but I won't shake his hand" is contradictory.
Obviously, there is a problem. And that's fine, unless one declares "I have no problem".
Quote from: HornetMaX on September 09, 2018, 07:44:50 PMYou are assuming he isn't. Based on what? Because you know him personally? Because you can read his mind?
You are assuming he would be fine in doing it behind the scene ...
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 14, 2018, 08:02:41 PMOverall great read David!
Nice write up, even if I disagree on a few things, that in particular:QuoteI'm not sure. Did he take less care because it was Valentino Rossi ahead of him? Definitely.He did more or less the same thing with Espargaro and, probably, he would have done the same thing with anybody.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 14, 2018, 08:02:41 PMThe rules concerning this situation was outlined by Janaucarre above. The riders have the sighting lap to finally decide on which tyres they intend to use.
I wouldn't blame race direction to much for the start mess with Miller: to me what is lacking is a proper rule for this kind of situations in the rule book.
Quote from: janaucarre on April 14, 2018, 11:58:57 AM
First, they all have done one lap before the warmup and the start, so they have been able to know wich tyres they need
Second, in a same case, all the driver should not be autorised to come back at pit and change tyres, they sould start and come to pit after one lap or more. It's my best reflection on this story. Miller took a risk and perhaps be punished if rain was coming, so the other who didn't take risk (all), must be punished because they choose bad.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 14, 2018, 08:02:41 PMThe correct procedure according to the rules would have had all riders except for Miller to start from the pit lane. It has been done before on Sachsenring 2014 where almost the whole field started from the pit after changing tyres last second. It was chaotic, yes. But every start is chaotic and it was not signficantly more dangerous than a regular start. Also the pit-lane in Argentina is less narrow than it was on Sachsenring. But the most important thing: It is the correct way according to the rules and it would have been in compliance with what was rules back in 2014 on Sachsenring. Riders need consistency from the race commission. And riders that take a risk and that would have had to deal with the consequences if his strategy would not pay off, should not be defrauded off their advantage if their strategy does pay off.
As a race director, would you go with a never-tried-before race start procedure like the one you propose ?
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 12, 2018, 08:19:32 PMLOL one would get the impression...
Hehe no I am careful not to read too much. As far as I can tell 2 strokes are back in this race? Lol
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 12, 2018, 10:13:24 PMYes. That Miller-topic also fell short, because of all the other drama. Race commission screwed up big-time and in all likelihood robbed him off a win. Those bold decisions need to be rewarded. But I think those officials didn't want to have too much scuffle there for the championship top-contenders and wanted to not have all start from the pit-lane. But it would have been the correct way according to the rules. Miller was robbed.
Jack I feel sorry for - that start decision?
Crutchlow is winning championship - Boom! As an 'Icelandic' Brit this is fantastic.
Quote from: Napalm Nick on April 12, 2018, 10:10:25 AMHope you haven't spoilered it too much for yourself by sniffing in here.
I still haven't seen this goddamn race yet. I look forward to reading this whole thread after tho. Must be a good race to kick-start such a long discussion
Quote from: Hawk on April 11, 2018, 09:59:49 PMindeed, he has a tendency. I remember similar things from the discussion after Sepang Clash.
Max. I didn't at all say, "Nah, I remember it right, it was fair"; I wish you wouldn't quote statements I didn't make..... You'd make a very good newspaper-journalist mate. Lol!
Quote from: Hawk on April 11, 2018, 09:59:49 PMI think that for sure is a generalization. The majority of riders does have honor and respects the ethics of sports. Just look at all the statements after last sunday's race. The vast majority was very very critical of MM's actions. Or look at how the 4 guys in front bravely but respectfully fought for the win (Zarco didn't do any stupid moves after the Pedrosa incident).
[...] they seem to think behaviour like that is to be expected and the normal thing to do to win races.... There is just no honour in the sport these days....
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AMI agree with that. But I did not say anything else. He intended to bounce off the other riders, hoping they can ride on too of course. Anything else would be sociopathical, which he is not. But his plan was to bounce off of other riders if they do not concede and run wide on their own.
He was trying (too much) to win, not to crash whoever else.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AMI agree, we cannot be sure about this. But this is an immanent problem with all motives. I work in the law segment and there is a similar problem with sanctions in penal law where the motive of a person is part of what is viewed condemnable behaviour. If we cannot look inside the brain, then we have to resort to the fact that actions are the outer representation of one's motives. So e.g. if a court assumes a murder is premeditated, then it is due to some verifiable actions which are in accordance with planned behaviour (e.g. buying a murder weapon before the murder). I would argue that the fact that MM has made the exact same move the whole weekend should have had a learning effect on such a skilled rider over the course of the weekend. To the effect that such behaviour should have been avoidable. And if it is not avoided it can be considered intentional or at least highly negligent which is considered almost as condemnable and should request similar sanctions.
If we are sure he intentionally went for contact/crashed the other rider, black flag or 1 race suspension is not enough. But we aren't.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AMOf course what is remembered are moments that stand out. But epic moves should not be the goal of one's actions. Then the risk/reward ratio is biased if the move itself is part of the reward. Great moves come by themselves if racing happens, they cannot/should not be aimed at.Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.
Oh come on ... racing history is 95% made of epic moves and battles. And sometimes they just end with one (or two) in the gravel.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 06:59:24 AMThat is what I mean with borderline ok. Sorry I was not really clear about that. Rossi should have seen the black Flag in Sepang Clash, Marquez should have seen black flag after he made the exact same stupid move for the 3rd time in the same fooking race!!! One time with Espargaro can happen, but one should be more cautious after that. He was not at all, seemed even more aggressive. Then he had another incident with Rabat I think (?), where he was ordered to drop one place, then several other overtakes which were questionable (but maybe ok), then the incident with Rossi where he was totally off the charts. That's just too much. He did not show in any way that he did not mean to do that. He raced like he could ride through other riders (is he playing too much Milestone games in his free time?) or as if he made a habit of bouncing off other riders, so he can take the corner while other's not. It happened many times, many riders were endangered by him, in two incidents the riders even had to take a DNF (Espargaro, Rossi - well Rossi had 0 points).
I haven't seen a lot of people saying MM was borderline OK. Almost everybody agrees the sanction(s) were fair.
Then you have some saying black flags + race ban are needed. This is where I disagree. Strongly.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 06:59:24 AMThat's where I strongly disagree. That is the exact thinking by MM - which results in such behaviour. If MM had had only one such incident, I would agree with you. It can happen. But he made a habit of this dangerous move during the whole weekend. Corner 13 in Argentina allows to brake late if the rider lifts the bike up a bit, then run from the inside towards the outside, run the other rider off a bit, then accelerate hard from the inside. To a certain degree this can be seen a race overtake. But MM made a habit of braking so late that contact was unavoidable. He anticipated the contact and knew he would make contact. It was part of his plan. That is where it is not a fair race overtake. In Rossi's case he was braking so late that in fact he would have had trouble to make the corner even if he would have been on his own. This driving is simply unacceptable. I am sorry, imho there is no other opinion to this. Otherwise we would allow carnage on track.
The line between a gutsy overtake and a too dangerous one is very thin: a bit less of contact, MM not going so wide (pushing VR out) and it would have been an epic move, one that VR could boast about in the aftermath if done by himself. MM took a risk, overdid it, things went wrong, got a penalty. All fine and sorry for VR, shit happens.
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 09, 2018, 10:54:30 PMIf people are even argueing that MM behaviour is borderline ok, it does not make sense to talk about Zarco. That's why. Zarco's behaviour also was a very bad move and he has a history of it. Race commission needs to keep him in check as well. But it was one reckless move by Zarco the whole weekend. For the whole weekend Marquez had many reckless moves. I remember seeing him reckless in practice sessions even this weekend. To be quite honest, if Dovizioso was not so well prepared mentally, we would have seen the great last corner overtakes from Marquez not being countered my Dovi, but we would have seen Marquez run into Dovi in the last corner of Qatar 2018 and Austria 2017, maybe even crashing Dovi. Dovi had attitude, skills and plan to counter it. But he could anticipate it since it was the last corner in the last lap. Espargaro and Rossi did not have much of a chance.
But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...
Quote from: matty0l215 on April 09, 2018, 03:31:23 PMTotally agree. Marquez is riding irl like he was riding in a video game. As if crashing could not end fatal. Race commission needs to step in with harsh sanctions to enforce a certain behaviour / penalize unacceptable behaviour. This is not about Rossi, this is about safety and fair-play. Aleix Espargaro's race was also totally destroyed by MM. He does not seem to care.
We say this as if it is the first time this is happening.
Okay the dominance of a single rider is newish to this era but each generation of new riders is faster than the last and that is just how the sport develops. What shouldnt be happening is letting riders get away with reckless and unessecerry actions.
Quote from: xwelder on March 30, 2018, 09:44:05 AMNot yet as far as know. I am planning on doing some RX races, maybe even a championship. But imho, the tire physics don't really allow for competitve racing at the moment. The RX cars for example have a tendency to bounce high in the air off curbs. Also there are some overheating tendencies with tires of some cars.
Just curious if there are any regular race meets ? anyone running races even a season ?
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 30, 2018, 03:08:37 PMI see that too. And I am under the impression that those parents which are assholes seem to have a higher reproduction rates. So this asshole behaviour seems to become the norm.
I've recently been to some "comptetitive" judo tournament for kids aged 8-14: the number of parents (fathers *and* mothers) I would have immediately terminated is just amazing.
No way these people could transmit any sort of respect to a kid. So the kid will grow up and become an asshole. Not his fault. But the problem is that he will have kids too one day ...