Cleaned up the electronics a bit too. It'll be nice not having to be so careful when setting up.
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Quote from: Vini on May 18, 2020, 09:25:27 pmGood discussion anyway!Absolutely!
I will try to do some calculations myself as well but taking into account all the reactionary forces makes it quite complicated.
Ultimately, I don't think an exact calculation is necessary in order to identify the dependencies between the different parameters. Thought experiments are the way to go in this case in my opinion.
Quote from: Vini on May 18, 2020, 09:25:27 pmVery intersted in your analysis of the force feedback, specifically under acceleration.I'll take a look at it as soon as i get the time, hopefully today.
Would it be possible to make another riding video where you show a synced graph of the logged raw force feedback data?
The behaviour while wheelying and sliding would be especially interesting.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 11:30:43 pmBy your logic, you'd have to move the simulator in such a way that it precisely counteracts your own movements so that your body stays vertical. But then hanging off and not hanging off would feel the same way which is not accurate either since hanging off in reality requires effort against gravity
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 11:30:43 pmThis is what I was talking about earlier and which confused me as well: For the design of your simulator, you need to stay in the reference frame of the rider, which is the opposite of all those motorcycle vector sketches you find in literature. The fact that hanging off allows the bike-rider system as a whole to turn faster or the fact that it reduces the bike's lean angle is not relevant to the forces the rider experiences (or at least it's negligible).
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 11:30:43 pmThe only forces you consciously experience are the ones you have to actively resist.Up until here we are pretty much on the same page.
When staying stationary in the seat, the combination of gravity and cornering force pushes your straight in the seat, requiring no resisting on your part.
As soon as you hang off (your lower body), gravity pulls you away from the bike requiring effort to stay seated.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 11:30:43 pmThe cornering force on the other hand still pushes you into the bike, meaning the only force you have to resist is the gravity pointing straight down, which is exactly the same you currently have to resist when moving out of your stationary chair.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 11:30:43 pmStill a lot easier to build than a full motion bike rig, though
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 pmGood video, really shows the realism much better!
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 pmRegarding our physics discussion, the differentiation between hanging off and not hanging off is fundamentally wrong. Just think it a step further: It would mean that there is a special distance to the bike you need to achieve at all times in order to hit the sweet spot where the force simulation is accurate. Any deviation from that would result in an incorrect feeling.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 pmThe extra forces created by hanging off are purely created by your own positioning while the external forces acting on the bike-rider (or simulator-player) system as a whole remain the same.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 pmYou are also not hanging off everytime the bike is leaning, for example when swerving around on a straight you are fully tucked in.
Lastly, your differentiation would mean that the physics are not continuous which cannot be true: The force calculation at the transition away from exactly 0° lean angle would change instantaneously in order to reflect your theory on the influence of hanging off.
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 pmThe swivel design is a compromise in order to replicate some of the relative movements hanging off and leaning produces on a real bike. The mounting height and the bike-lean-angle-to-controller-swivel-angle-scaling need to be finetuned, which is not being properly reflected in your sketches.
If they are correctly adjusted, the movements between your head (which is where most of your senses come from) and the handlebar would be quite close to reality:
Quote from: doubledragoncc on May 17, 2020, 09:38:08 amQuote from: Chris_Beeves on May 16, 2020, 04:20:23 pmLate.. As always!
Here is my paint anyway..
Hi Chris, it is easy here to tell what bike the pnt is for, BUT you need to use the GPB format for naming files so that it is not a problem later or for the database.
Example: Road CBR900RR 97 SparkyStunts.pnt (Class. Model, Year, Name) it is needed but few follow the rule. Thanks for the future
Thats a long example but yo show how it works for knowing where a pnt belongs.
Its a nightmare for me on the database with hundreds of pnt files that dont say what they are for
Quote from: maggikk22 on May 14, 2020, 12:53:39 pmI agree with Vini: you have to fight against gravity all the time.
Even when you look at professional simulators such as the moto trainer (even if you don't control the rider), the overall feeling seems to be that the bike is too heavy.
Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 pmThe extra forces you generate by hanging off are the same whether you hang off your stationary chair or hang off a real bike while riding, it's just gravity. Therefore these forces don't have to be considered in the design of the simulator/controller. Note that we are talking about the forces acting on you, not the forces acting on the bike, which would be influenced by the overall shift in center of gravity produced by hanging off.I disagree with you here. When racing a real bike (not just riding) it's not "just gravity". It is the resulting force I'm talking about. I had my inner three-year-old sketch it up for me:
Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 pmThis slight change in angle is exactly what you get when you hang off your chair: A bit of "extra" gravity pulling you slightly away from (the center of) your seat instead of merely pointing straight into it.
Your idea of tilting the bike in the opposite direction would result in a very strange feeling because even though the relative position to the bike might be correct, your sense of balance would know that something is wrong. Your inner ear could tell that your body is leaning. On a real bike, this is not the case because the cornering force counteracts the gravity acting on your inner ear, resulting in your sense of balance always staying aligned to the bike.
Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 pmIf you closed your eyes while riding piggyback you would not be able to tell how far the bike is leaning.
This means that for your simulator, your body cannot be leaning at all because any sense of tilt would be wrong.
Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 pmI will stop with the off-topic now but you are actually way closer to the "perfect simulation" than you might think.
Quote from: Vini on May 13, 2020, 09:56:53 pmYou don't feel lateral forces when riding a real bike, though. The leaning always makes the resulting force vector acting on your body (gravity + cornering force) point straight into the seat.
This means that any leaning of the seat without the corresponding cornering force will result in an incorrect force vector that's not pointing straight into the seat anymore.
The way you are currently sitting on your chair is already simulating the appropriate (lateral) forces required to trick your brain.
All that is missing is the relative movement between the bars and you, which would be achieved by the having the handlebar swivel around/under you.
Quote from: Vini on May 13, 2020, 09:19:31 pmI think a full motion rig with moving seat would actually feel less real because of the lack of G-forces. You would constantly be fighting gravity when hanging off because it cannot be countered by cornering forces.