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September 21, 2020, 06:56:45 AM


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Messages - Chris_Beeves

Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 17, 2020, 08:37:47 PM
Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 PMGood video, really shows the realism much better!

Thank you!

Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 PMRegarding our physics discussion, the differentiation between hanging off and not hanging off is fundamentally wrong. Just think it a step further: It would mean that there is a special distance to the bike you need to achieve at all times in order to hit the sweet spot where the force simulation is accurate. Any deviation from that would result in an incorrect feeling.

I can see that I'm failing to communicate what it is that I mean. I'm not saying there is a "correct" hang off amount. I agree with you that as it is now, any hanging off messes up the sense of balance. Leaning the simulator rig in the direction you are turning would make that even worse. Leaning it too much in the other direction would mess it up equally. I'm enjoying this discussion a lot, you make good points!
Do you agree with me that, if you were to lean a motion rig in any direction, it would be the opposite way of the turn?

Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 PMThe extra forces created by hanging off are purely created by your own positioning while the external forces acting on the bike-rider (or simulator-player) system as a whole remain the same.

The shift in the rider's center of gravity affects the lean angle of the bike you need to make a given turn at a given speed. So even if the external forces are the same, the relation between the internal forces are different (lean angle/hang off = constant, or something like that)

Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 PMYou are also not hanging off everytime the bike is leaning, for example when swerving around on a straight you are fully tucked in.
Lastly, your differentiation would mean that the physics are not continuous which cannot be true: The force calculation at the transition away from exactly 0° lean angle would change instantaneously in order to reflect your theory on the influence of hanging off.

Yeah, that is a good point too. A depth mapping sensor would be required to get a somewhat correct assuption of rig lean.. Maybe that could keep the lean/hang ratio constant (or just tap into the trackIR data..). I'd like to go hang out at Cruden for a year or so to try stuff out..

Quote from: Vini on May 17, 2020, 06:32:25 PMThe swivel design is a compromise in order to replicate some of the relative movements hanging off and leaning produces on a real bike. The mounting height and the bike-lean-angle-to-controller-swivel-angle-scaling need to be finetuned, which is not being properly reflected in your sketches.
If they are correctly adjusted, the movements between your head (which is where most of your senses come from) and the handlebar would be quite close to reality:

Your sketch is a lot better than mine! ;)
I feel that the radius required to make the swivel work for my riding style would make it very difficult to fabricate. This is just my stuborn mind though, I haven't tried it, so I can't really say.
Racing / Re: Supersport International Cup 2020
May 17, 2020, 01:07:01 PM
Quote from: doubledragoncc on May 17, 2020, 09:38:08 AM
Quote from: Chris_Beeves on May 16, 2020, 04:20:23 PMLate.. As always!

Here is my paint anyway..

Hi Chris, it is easy here to tell what bike the pnt is for, BUT you need to use the GPB format for naming files so that it is not a problem later or for the database.

Example: Road CBR900RR 97 SparkyStunts.pnt   (Class. Model, Year, Name) it is needed but few follow the rule. Thanks for the future

Thats a long example but yo show how it works for knowing where a pnt belongs.

Its a nightmare for me on the database with hundreds of pnt files that dont say what they are for


Aah, I didn't even think about that, I was in a bit of a hurry.
I'll look into it and fix it ASAP, thanks for the heads up DD!
Racing / Re: Supersport International Cup 2020
May 16, 2020, 04:20:23 PM
Late.. As always!

Here is my paint anyway..
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 15, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
This shows the feel of the controller and the head tracking a bit better I think.

Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 15, 2020, 09:50:53 AM
Quote from: maggikk22 on May 14, 2020, 12:53:39 PMI agree with Vini: you have to fight against gravity all the time.
Even when you look at professional simulators such as the moto trainer (even if you don't control the rider), the overall feeling seems to be that the bike is too heavy.

That's exactly my point. The likes of moto trainer just ignores the lack of external forces. It's like a mechanical bull, nothing like racing a bike.

Love your rig! Must weigh half a ton?

Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 PMThe extra forces you generate by hanging off are the same whether you hang off your stationary chair or hang off a real bike while riding, it's just gravity. Therefore these forces don't have to be considered in the design of the simulator/controller. Note that we are talking about the forces acting on you, not the forces acting on the bike, which would be influenced by the overall shift in center of gravity produced by hanging off.
I disagree with you here. When racing a real bike (not just riding) it's not "just gravity". It is the resulting force I'm talking about. I had my inner three-year-old sketch it up for me:

You cannot see attachments on this board.

The important thing to keep in mind here is that in real life we have L+g. That makes the percieved resulting force = R
In my seat by the computer, sadly I don't have access to an L. However, I can't just remove it from the equation (like you can see it the fatal second row incident). We need to replicate R, like in the third row.
Again, all this is only applicable if you want to lean off your seat/chair/rig.

Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 PMThis slight change in angle is exactly what you get when you hang off your chair: A bit of "extra" gravity pulling you slightly away from (the center of) your seat instead of merely pointing straight into it.

Your idea of tilting the bike in the opposite direction would result in a very strange feeling because even though the relative position to the bike might be correct, your sense of balance would know that something is wrong. Your inner ear could tell that your body is leaning. On a real bike, this is not the case because the cornering force counteracts the gravity acting on your inner ear, resulting in your sense of balance always staying aligned to the bike.

What you are explaining here is exactly what leaning the bike the "wrong way" would remedy (Only applicable when hanging off your chair). Again, we have to replicate the resulting force "R" by only using the availible force "g", which needs to be pointing the same way "R" would. To do this, we rotate whatever you are sitting on the -(angle) of R.

Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 PMIf you closed your eyes while riding piggyback you would not be able to tell how far the bike is leaning.
This means that for your simulator, your body cannot be leaning at all because any sense of tilt would be wrong.

This also only applies if your'e sitting perfectly straight on the bike. In that case, no lean movement is necessary, I agree to that.

Quote from: Vini on May 14, 2020, 01:18:48 PMI will stop with the off-topic now but you are actually way closer to the "perfect simulation" than you might think.

Me too, soon, but first my inner child couldn't help sketching what he thinks is strange with Swivel:

You cannot see attachments on this board.

(Maybe a paralell movement would be closer to real life, but harder to make)
Racing / Re: Supersport International Cup 2020
May 14, 2020, 08:35:37 AM
Nickname: Chris Beeves
Nationality: Swedish
Starting Number: 42
Team: ASL Racing (O.o)
Bike: Honda CBR600RR
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 14, 2020, 04:24:00 AM
Quote from: Vini on May 13, 2020, 09:56:53 PMYou don't feel lateral forces when riding a real bike, though. The leaning always makes the resulting force vector acting on your body (gravity + cornering force) point straight into the seat.

This means that any leaning of the seat without the corresponding cornering force will result in an incorrect force vector that's not pointing straight into the seat anymore.

The way you are currently sitting on your chair is already simulating the appropriate (lateral) forces required to trick your brain.
All that is missing is the relative movement between the bars and you, which would be achieved by the having the handlebar swivel around/under you.

That would be true when you're sitting perfectly still an upright on your seat.
When I drive on track, I don't do that. So when I drive a simulator, I don't want to do that. I want to hang off!  :P
I also need to hang off in order to control the rider with trackIR, and in the future VR.

Riding a right corner and hanging off, the resulting force of gravity, acceleration and centripetal acceleration would not point straight down through the bike. Rather at an angle pointing from the right side of the bike somewhere through it's center (depending on how much you hang off and your weight). To replicate that force when standing still (in a simulator for example), you would need to lean the whole bike to the left, not just the handlebars. Am I making sense?

If I didn't draw like a two-year-old, a sketch would probably help..
Buuuut, this is probably a discussion for another thread, another time. :)
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 13, 2020, 09:36:32 PM
Quote from: Vini on May 13, 2020, 09:19:31 PMI think a full motion rig with moving seat would actually feel less real because of the lack of G-forces. You would constantly be fighting gravity when hanging off because it cannot be countered by cornering forces.

We can always play with the g-force that we DO have. The 9,82m/s^2 straight down. If you keep that straight under you when hanging off it should in theory fool the mind if you're using VR.  So if you tilt the bike left when going right, the force vector of gravity should be in the same(ish) direction as the cornering force would be.. I don't know if this is possible to implement yet, but I look forward to trying in the future. :)
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 13, 2020, 08:45:39 PM
I'd go with hall sensors if I was going to try doing it again. They're cheap and quite easy to work with, but the whole concept works better in the imagination than irl I think.

If (when) I start working with motion I think I'll just rather move the whole rig. Seat and all. Combined with VR I don't think the movements need to be very large. But that will have to wait.

Next on my list is finishing the wireless knee sliders and trying to borrow a VR headset. That will pretty much finish the first stage of this project.
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 13, 2020, 05:15:54 PM
The A.S.S. worked, but even though there was a click when leaning enough to trigger the rider it was really hard to get a feel for it. It would probably work better if it was analog and the center was more noticeable when driving. It feels like it takes some practice even with the trackIR controlling the rider.

Not sure about the tilting.. Do you mean to get the lean angle from the game and have a servo turn the whole thing?
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 12, 2020, 05:31:46 PM
Quote from: h106frp on May 12, 2020, 02:13:22 PMVery nice so far..
Could you use a stepper drive rather than a servo? I was just thinking you could then alter the holding current to get better control of the position when you have very little force feedback signal without the need for ramping up the overall loop gain.

That was the initial idea, but even the consumer level stepper motor drivers that support FOC (necessary to avoid the 'notches' in the stepper) are quite a bit more expensive. The driver I got cost just 18€. Good point however, and I will keep my eyes open for this.
I'm still playing around with the settings a bit, and I may well be able to raise the force setting if I dial it in better.

Quote from: Vini on May 12, 2020, 02:36:54 PMThanks for the answers. Even more proof that PiBoSo needs to relax the virtual rider under acceleration, as it interferes with the physics.
How noticable is the increase in steering resistance at higher velocities and does it make change of direction significantly slower or can you just overpower the motor?

Yeah, there is something strange there.
The increase is noticeable enough I would say. Even when I overpower the motor it doesn't feel as weird as you would imagine. It looks strange on video, but is kind of acceptable IRL if you know what I mean.
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 12, 2020, 01:25:25 PM
It's really fun to get some questions and feedback! Appreciate it

Quote from: matty0l215 on May 12, 2020, 01:17:06 PMNice work Chris!
Thanks mate!
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 12, 2020, 01:09:39 PM
Quote from: Vini on May 12, 2020, 12:23:42 PMDoes the front stay misaligned (like this) or is it being auto-centered?
Yeah, it stays misaligned. The bars lose pretty much all resistance when the wheel leaves the ground.
My guess is that the ffb is calculated mostly from the "steer torque" and, even though it is extremely noisy at times, works very well 95% of the time (If you don't use too much force, then it goes bananas).

However, I have been experimenting with having a small spring effect in the background though to stiffen up the feeling of the bars a bit more (if I could just raise the force that wouldn't be necessary). This is present even when the wheel is off the ground, but that is not GPbikes fault just mine. :)

Quote from: Vini on May 12, 2020, 12:23:42 PMDoes the front send the bike into a wobble when its dropped and not aligned?
When accelerating, not so much. But if I roll off the throttle too fast, it gets quite nervous on landing. I would say it reacts quite similar to how a real bike would.

Quote from: Manu on May 12, 2020, 12:46:31 PMGreat job!
Thanks Manu!
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 11, 2020, 07:47:53 PM
Thanks guys!

@Vini, no I changed to angle when I made the move to the standard force feedback. Torque didn't make any sense. Haven't tried it with this motor, but I suspect it would be similar. I'll give it a shot.

DS2(angle) when wheeling is very nice. The bars get light and give a nice kick when touching down again if the angle doesn't match.

In the end I lost the rear. I held on to the bars harder than the motor could push.
It's a compromise. Force feedback is a little buggy in the game and setting too high force makes the whole thing oscillate.
Custom hardware / Re: The M30x/MCCC/Lumberbar
May 10, 2020, 06:18:47 PM
A brief demo of the status today