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Trailbraking feels wrong...?

Started by davidboda46, December 01, 2019, 12:07:49 AM

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davidboda46

December 01, 2019, 12:07:49 AM Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 10:03:08 AM by davidboda46
Hi guys. Need your opinion on this. I've been playing around with trail braking for a while now and I can't really replicate the correct feeling. When putting weight on the front the bike should be easier to steer, but instead it feels like the opposite and I keep missing the apex every time. If I finish braking before the corner and go in coasting I make the apex... which just feels wrong to me. Another problem I've noticed is that trying to tighten the line with the rear brake on certain bikes is just impossible. Even if I just apply 1-5% rear brake the rear tire looses traction and the bike goes down. That really should not happen since I should be miles away from locking the rear, or upsetting the bikes geometry enough to lose the front (usually though the rear lets go and not the front).

Any thought or ideas? Am I doing it wrong/thinking wrong about this or is it down to faulty game and/or bike physics?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46   
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

KG_03

December 01, 2019, 01:42:30 PM #1 Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 01:56:29 PM by KG_03
I have similar feeling. At the corner entry the bike should easier turn in, but in the middle of the corner I think it is correct that it goes wide. When braking with front brake (depending on the tyre of course) the straightening forces put the bike more upright.
As for rear brake I didnt look closely. Need to check.

Myst1cPrun3

On older bikes, and tyres, you would never turn in with the brakes afford, as you'd just go up the road on your arse.

I was always taught to get the braking done before turning, and balance the throttle around the turn, which I find I can do in GP Bikes.

Its only really with modern, high tech race bikes like WSBK, WSSP, and MotoGP that 'trail braking' has come to the fore.

Now, even in those classes you can see the exact moment the riders let off the brake, as the bike, and their position on it, slouch down and shift suddenly,which again happens in GP Bikes,or is at least possible.
Another thing I found is when this happens the riders in the real world tend to double apex a turn, so they kinda run wide as well. (thinking t1 Malaysia etc)

The only issues I have with GP Bikes braking is that when I'm hard on the brakes, and the bike is squirming and pulling stoppies, I have the ability to tip the bike in slightly, and then the stoppies and slides go away, to the point on some bikes 80% brake is the max stood up, but I can apply 100% leant over slightly.

That and the lean angle barrier when braking.

If you are on the brakes and turn in, it limits the lean angle you can achieve, so that you don't crash.
I'd like to see the barrier gone, making it so we have to manually choose how far to lean, and going too far, or beyond where the 'barrier' would have been, results in a crash. Would make it much more rider dependant.

P.S; From my, admittedly limited track experience IRL, turning in while OFF the brakes was for me much easier physically than when attempting even minor trail braking.
Could lean quicker, and turn tighterwhen coasting/balancing the throttle to the apex

KG_03

Did you guys see that video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14vS6hnfgrs

I think It explains some of the things we discuss here.

However I have noticed the issue with MotoGP mod. Didnt notice it in other bikes. As for riding irl I dont have much experience and I dont  push front tyre much as I dont have that experience. I just trailbrake and then hold throttle slightly to stabilise the bike and reduce riding on idle as much as possible.
 

Myst1cPrun3

I have seen that video, and I generally watch a lot of his stuff, as he is quite good. I used his vids to help me when I did my first trackday.

That being said, some points are quite basic in explanation, and some points are missing altogether. Such as the fact 'Trail Braking' with any aggression, (Race situation or Time trial Etc) requires suspension to be setup as well as decent tyres, and only then will the front end respond positively to trail Braking.
Trail braking on road suspension and tyres, at extreme racing speeds will cause under-steer, or a front end crash.

That being said, its not much help in GPB as there are very few bikes that use road tyres and suspension, however most baseline setups are designed to feel nice and easy to use, and aren't necessarily setup for speed or a riders style, so in order to utilise the maximum effect of trail braking, even in GP Bikes, the suspension will 99% of the time, need altering, due to as I said, the ability for players to utilise different styles, and setups even if the lap times are the same.

(Something which is sorely missing in the Milestone games, it tends to be ride one way or don't be competitive)


The motoGP bikes are difficult to judge, as they're setup, and even built differently IRL, it is expected to have some of that transfer into the sim as well.

As for the rear Brake, I use a button so I can't compare really, but I should imagine it is something to do with the mod bikes. Best thing to do would be try the original piboso bikes, such as the M2, or the Old 990/500s, as they are developed for the sim and should be set up right.

davidboda46

The M2 is unridable for me, front-end washes out if I even think of entering a corner or correcting the angle. I do use my homebuilt controller and 100% direct lean, that and the problems with the virtual rider might explain my issues with that bike.


"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

BOBR6 84

Quote from: davidboda46 on December 01, 2019, 12:07:49 AMHi guys. Need your opinion on this. I've been playing around with trail braking for a while now and I can't really replicate the correct feeling. When putting weight on the front the bike should be easier to steer, but instead it feels like the opposite and I keep missing the apex every time. If I finish braking before the corner and go in coasting I make the apex... which just feels wrong to me. Another problem I've noticed is that trying to tighten the line with the rear brake on certain bikes is just impossible. Even if I just apply 1-5% rear brake the rear tire looses traction and the bike goes down. That really should not happen since I should be miles away from locking the rear, or upsetting the bikes geometry enough to lose the front (usually though the rear lets go and not the front).

Any thought or ideas? Am I doing it wrong/thinking wrong about this or is it down to faulty game and/or bike physics?

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46   

Try getting most of the heavy braking done at your brake marker and start slowly releasing the brake as you head for your apex. If you hold onto the brake too much the bike wont turn in..

Also with bigger bikes its better to square off the corner.. so in deeper on the brakes. Turn. And fire it out of the turn. Whereas smaller bikes you can maintain more corner speed with different sweeping lines

h106frp

Trail braking physics appears to be broken in b17 and even altering the brake force in the physics file does not appear to fix the issue. Anything more than a very light dab with any lean causes the bike to drop (not even sure its sliding before this happens).

BOBR6 84

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on December 01, 2019, 02:36:42 PMP.S; From my, admittedly limited track experience IRL, turning in while OFF the brakes was for me much easier physically than when attempting even minor trail braking.
Could lean quicker, and turn tighterwhen coasting/balancing the throttle to the apex

Use your legs and core body strength. Id get yourself a set of stomp grips to stick on your tank makes it less tiring on your legs because of friction.. so you dont have to squeeze the tank as much lol. But yeah taking as much pressure off your arms as you can will let you control the bike better, brake later and save your arms getting tired from the braking forces etc

Vini

Quote from: h106frp on March 05, 2020, 10:46:22 AMTrail braking physics appears to be broken in b17 and even altering the brake force in the physics file does not appear to fix the issue. Anything more than a very light dab with any lean causes the bike to drop (not even sure its sliding before this happens).
No idea what you mean.
The MotoGP bikes feel exactly the same on the brakes to me.

davidboda46

Quote from: Vini on March 05, 2020, 01:27:40 PM
Quote from: h106frp on March 05, 2020, 10:46:22 AMTrail braking physics appears to be broken in b17 and even altering the brake force in the physics file does not appear to fix the issue. Anything more than a very light dab with any lean causes the bike to drop (not even sure its sliding before this happens).
No idea what you mean.
The MotoGP bikes feel exactly the same on the brakes to me.

We were talking about the M2 bike... Can't really judge the games base physics on mod bikes.

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

Vini

March 06, 2020, 02:36:56 PM #11 Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 04:00:56 PM by Vini
How do you plan on judging the underlying game physics if the bike you are using for testing has been changed in this beta??
The MotoGP bikes on the other hand have not been changed and for me I can't feel any difference in beta17.

Besides, the mod bikes have far better tuned data than the stock bikes. I think even PiBoSo admitted that at some point.

davidboda46

Quote from: Vini on March 06, 2020, 02:36:56 PMHow do you plan on judging the underlying game physics if the bike you are using for testing has been changed in this beta??
The MotoGP bikes on the other hand have not been changed and for me I can't feel any difference in beta17.

Besides, the mod bikes have far better tuned data than the stock bikes. I think even PiBoSo admitted that at some point.

Since I don't know what the underlying changes in the new beta are, I suspect that there are changes that the unchanged mod bikes aren't adapted to and therefor gives a false representation of the underlying physics. The data might be better on the mod bikes but if there are parameters they don't take into consideration they will not accurately represent the physics engine. Of course I might be wrong since I don't know how to make mod bikes. That is my reasoning anyway...

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

 
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"