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March 28, 2024, 10:11:58 PM

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World Racing Series beta14 available! :)


time for a real moto controller(diy)

Started by tseklias, June 12, 2014, 08:23:06 PM

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Hawk

Wow! Impressive!  ;D 8)

I'll be very interested to see this in action once it is complete... Will you make a video and upload it to YouTube for us all to see when completed?  ;D

Hawk.

iVolution

Quote from: tseklias on July 06, 2014, 09:11:46 PM
think of it similar to a small swing and the force moving it, will be the g25/27(logitech has very powerful ff motors they will do just fine)
Hi tseklias, looking like a nice project already, keep up the good work.

Questions/remarks:
- I really doubt the g25/g27 will have enough force to work on this rig. Yes for a steering wheel it might seem strong, but basically you will be hanging will all your weight on the wheel and I reaaaally doubt whether it has enough strength to make some noticable feedback or might even burn the internal force feedback motors.
- I am missing some fairing or parts where you are able to put your knees on. If you are hanging on the side of the bike, i think you will be mostly using the pressure with your knees to get upright again. If you do not have anything to put your legs/knees against, all that force has to come from your inner thighs which might not be the most comfortable experience in the long run.

tseklias

July 07, 2014, 12:12:54 PM #17 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:20:33 PM by tseklias
Quote from: iVolution on July 07, 2014, 11:11:44 AM
Questions/remarks:
- I really doubt the g25/g27 will have enough force to work on this rig. Yes for a steering wheel it might seem strong, but basically you will be hanging will all your weight on the wheel and I reaaaally doubt whether it has enough strength to make some noticable feedback or might even burn the internal force feedback motors.
- I am missing some fairing or parts where you are able to put your knees on. If you are hanging on the side of the bike, i think you will be mostly using the pressure with your knees to get upright again. If you do not have anything to put your legs/knees against, all that force has to come from your inner thighs which might not be the most comfortable experience in the long run.

1.i maxxed out all the power the ff of g25 has and played a few rounds with rfactor. after a couple of laps(not riding to the limits) i was sweating and the g25 didnt apply even 60-70% of its power cause i was driving carefully and avoiding to crash or stepping on curb. now if you see my build i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.
*im more afraid on breaking any plastic parts inside the g25 rather than  blowing the motors. i read somewhere that g25 houses brushless motors, this means actually that theyre bulletproof and has no life limit.
2.i think gpbikes use a centering spring(in-game) with help of the throttle at least thats the impression it gave me when i first tried it.

very interesting points that may be actual problems later, but well see, for now im more concerned of how to geometry right the whole build. i think thats the most difficult part here along with repositioning the potensiometers and measure right the new routes.

HornetMaX

Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.

MaX.

iVolution

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.
Yes thats a good point, i think there will always be something that will feel strange if you make "motorcycle controller" but not use the whole bike rig thing as what you usually see (Shark). I really try to visualize how I would sit ride on the model that is proposed and to overcome this problem I would try to lower that main tube a bit to be able to apply some force on the rig above that longitudinal axis. In the current situation i can imagine that leaning the bike is mostly done by pushing on the handle bar and footstep which might get a bit hard when straightening the bike out.

Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.
I am not an expert on physics, but doesn't that also mean that the G25 has to work twice as hard since every movement from the wheel has to be transformed in 2x that movement on the bike?

HornetMaX

Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 12:12:54 PM
i have a gearing of 2/1 this means the force g25 puts to the bike is doubled.

Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?

MaX.


tseklias

July 07, 2014, 03:01:58 PM #21 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:21:19 PM by tseklias
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
Ouch, the way it pivots around its longitudinal axis is gonna feel strange in my opinion.
yeah it will feel strange but surely not more than all other car racing setups. i was always strangling to find a way to know when the car actually started to go sideways on all car simulators. short answer=i believe if you dont install a motion simulator youll never know for sure, i hope you got the point, all the information a sim can give you through the controller,vibrations,ff,displays are not enough. you got to feel it at your butt to know that your sliding! either way none ever give it a shot, yeah i agree you can find many controllers working on utube but thats a whole different level of feedback well get from this. PLUS i havent spend more than 40euros till now and believe it will cost a 40-50 more. well this is ridiculous i think even for a fail attempt!

Quote from: iVolution on July 07, 2014, 01:34:09 PM
I am not an expert on physics, but doesn't that also mean that the G25 has to work twice as hard since every movement from the wheel has to be transformed in 2x that movement on the bike?
the g25 will have to run the double distance but with half the power. we will need to run the logitech profiler just like you did if you ever played rfactor, lfs or any other sim that you needed to configure it.to find out the maximum lean in degrees you do the following: lean angle of bike=64(max seen on motogp)x2(cause you can turn both left and right)=128. now you multiply 128  by 2 since the g25 must run double the distance. so the logitech profiler must be set at 256degrees. be patience and i will provide you with all the information you will need to make it run from start to finish.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?
yes max. at least for now! gpbikes doesnt have the option to steer the handlebars. i thought of it earlier when i was designing the controller. a second bad thing also is that were restricted(since no steer exists) not to use ff motor for the handlebars. we can only imagine it for now how would it feel getting out of a corner wobbling and feeling it to your hands. it would have been also great so to know when you slide(since handlebars always face the direction axis) and under hard braking when the front wheel locks and you have to let brake and push it again not to fall. AHHHHhh  :'(

HornetMaX

Quote from: tseklias on July 07, 2014, 03:01:58 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 02:37:31 PM
Not sure I get the whole setup right ... will you use the frame lean (connected to the modded g25/27) to feed the GPB "steering" input ?
So the handlebars are actually locked, right ?
yes max. at least for now! gpbikes doesnt have the option to steer the handlebars. i thought of it earlier when i was designing the controller. a second bad thing also is that were restricted(since no steer exists) not to use ff motor for the handlebars. we can only imagine for now getting out of a corner wobbling and feeling it to your hands.
That's not entirely true: with "direct steer torque" the input controls the torque applied to the handlebars by the rider (and the FFB returns the torque applied on the handlebars by the environment). This is for sure the "purest" controller configuration. As an alternative, the input could control the "target handlebar angle" (using "direct steer angle" instead of "direct steer torque"). If you have a controller on which the steering axis can act as input and has FFB (e.g. if you connect your steering axis to a G25/27) then you could test these two input methods and see which one works better.

But then you would need to do something for the lean (assuming you want your frame to rotate when the bike leans): as GPB does not have separate inputs for steering and bike lean (and there are good reasons for that), the lean could only be "passive". You could have an output plugin reading the bike's lean angle and feeding this into the motor that controls the frame lean angle. Not very straightforward (at least for me) but surely doable (assuming you have a powerful enough motor, you can deal with the safety issues, etc).

Personally, before going for the full setup (with leaning frame), I would explore the simpler setup: G25/27 with wheel replaced by handlebars (throttle + front brake + clutch) and eventually some sort of pedals (for gears and rear brake). Using that with the standard input configuration (handlebars dictating the target lean angle) or the two "direct steering" configurations (DS torque and DS angle) should already provide a lot of information.

MaX.

Klax75

July 07, 2014, 03:41:33 PM #23 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:49:21 PM by Klax75
Seems like your trying to make this.





Sega's Super Hang One
http://www.youtube.com/v/_pKZaCdRIhw

tseklias

July 07, 2014, 03:54:28 PM #24 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:57:55 PM by tseklias
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 07, 2014, 03:32:26 PM
That's not entirely true: with "direct steer.....    ...should already provide a lot of information.

basically cause i dont know english well its hard to understand the function by only a name(direct steer, steer with torque etc). i have to give it a try to understand how it works. direct steer with torque is something that does the opposite job(with ff) from what we want by what i understood from the ds /w torque forum.

you should definitely give it a try with the g25, piboso couldnt have done a more wonderful work on the ff effects.  ;)

earlier i disassembled the pedals to take apart the potensiometers. not to say i wouldnt expecting it, so the wires of the potensiometers are too thin and may also be damaged if stretched and you will never find out the problem. so i assembled again the pedals and ordered a new from e-bay for 20$=25euro(including transfer). the reason i didnt use mine are that ive already modded mine(seperate upside-down brake&clutch for car sims) and it would have been double the work to do.
so continuing with the build heres the logitech profiler numbers you must need to use

Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 03:41:33 PM
Seems like your trying to make this.
no they were trying to copy mine!  ;D

Klax75


tseklias

July 07, 2014, 04:05:59 PM #26 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:08:59 PM by tseklias
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 03:59:24 PM
Those came out in 1987.....

ups i thought you were kidding. those things actually cost an arm and a leg to buy they dont function right(no ff,no actual steer...) and the size of those is pathetic(they havent became more compact till nowadays). plus im a fan of diy projects, its the only way to guarantee the pleasure of my needs.

Klax75

I can't use any of these in real life so. Doesn't matter to me. lol If I could use these, it would me I had the body to rider a real bike. Woo hoo! ;D

tseklias

July 07, 2014, 04:19:00 PM #28 Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:30:21 PM by tseklias
Quote from: Klax75 on July 07, 2014, 04:10:10 PM
I can't use any of these in real life so. Doesn't matter to me. lol If I could use these, it would me I had the body to rider a real bike. Woo hoo! ;D

oh i think i understood. im sorry i didnt know about it. either way on our subject i think the closest thing you can buy and not diy, is the IASystems controller, which imo i dont like. in the end riding a bike feels like a fight/cooperation of balance between rider and the machine i think this is the feel a controller must give you, not being able to drink a coffee while riding.

tseklias

Quote from: Hawk_UK on July 06, 2014, 10:57:50 PM
Wow! Impressive!  ;D 8)
I'll be very interested to see this in action once it is complete... Will you make a video and upload it to YouTube for us all to see when completed?  ;D

excuse me hawk i skipped your question, lol i disappointed my 1st fan!  ;D
yes many videos of it working and constructing the hard parts will be uploaded. ask anything you want.