My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

[passerBy]

What bothers me in GPB to this day is the tendency of the bikes to have sudden drops into the lean while the rider is at full lean into the turn.
Some bikes don't have it as bad. You can usually "ride" the FFB edge right into the corner and continue pushing on the inside "bar" all the way up to the exit. Just get on the brakes, hang off from the desired side, notice the fork starting to turn into the bend, smoothly get off the brake and on the throttle. This way the chances of dropping the bike are basically nil, but I have a feeling this might not be the fastest way around the corner.

Some bikes, however, are not like that. They'll let you feel the pressure of the inside bar up to around the apex, then the FFB decreases to 0, you have no idea what's going on in the front... and you drop the bike.

I love that ZX-7R to bits (after softening the suspension), but it has this annoying trait that makes it hardly possible to lean decently.

This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

[HornetMaX]

This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

Assuming all the bike basic params are fixed, tuning the virtual rider gains (spg0/1, sdg0/1, sig0/1 and  KYaw, KDamping0, KDamping1) is more or less blind trial and error for the modders.
Except PiBoSo nobody has the necessary tools to do that tuning properly (not even sure he has, but he could).

One thing I don't know is that: for normal steering, the above gains are used. For DST/DS1 none of them i used (as you directly input the torque in the physical model, no virtual rider).
But what for DSA/DS2 ? There's a PID, but what are its gains and where are they in the .cfg of each bike ?

[loinen]

I tried but with degrees of rotation set to 180 default and ds setup on my G25 wheel. Default steering still seems more preferable and natural with proper FFB force.

I assume you tried the directsteer=2 with that.

yes, i did.

Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

[passerBy]

Sorry, guys, I will have to leave for now due to the worsening of my own set of health-related issues. I really hate it happening when I just started to enjoy GPB...

[HornetMaX]

Ach, bad news. Get well soon !

[davidboda46]

Get well soon mate.

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

[passerBy]

Thank you, guys! Back for now...

[passerBy]

This gave me an idea. It would most likely make much more sense to test the bikes in this direct steering mode rather than in the default steering. You might not notice it, but the AI might be actually struggling with the bike. But since you don't have much feedback, you could be missing something important.

Assuming all the bike basic params are fixed, tuning the virtual rider gains (spg0/1, sdg0/1, sig0/1 and  KYaw, KDamping0, KDamping1) is more or less blind trial and error for the modders.
Except PiBoSo nobody has the necessary tools to do that tuning properly (not even sure he has, but he could).

One thing I don't know is that: for normal steering, the above gains are used. For DST/DS1 none of them i used (as you directly input the torque in the physical model, no virtual rider).
But what for DSA/DS2 ? There's a PID, but what are its gains and where are they in the .cfg of each bike ?

I presume the gains are hard-coded. And even though I don't see any need to be able to tinker with them in GP Bikes (for smaller bikes maybe? two-strokes?), but the response time of the MX Bikes' PID leaves something to be desired... Not very happy with the delays, but it turned out to be much more manageable than I initially thought it was. As for the rest, probably need to learn more about dirt bikes specifics.

[passerBy]

Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

But directsteer=2 is not default steering, and the same approach is not really applicable to it.

Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

How can it be "as close as possible" if you don't pull the bars on a real bike to a lock to expect the tightest turn? Name at least a single similarity between RL and the default steering.

[loinen]

Well, 180 degrees is just too much. Imagine having installed an almost 4:1 reduction gearing between the bars and the fork. It would feel weird, right? That's basically what you did with the 180° setting. Most likely, that is also the mistake DD made when he was experimenting with his Logitech wheel too.

i used to set it to 180 because i rode many hours with my logitech wheel in default steering mode and this value was identified as the most correct one for proper lean control, i don't think that 'mistake' is a proper word for this action. as you may know in default steering turning a wheel means leaning a bike and amount of turning here = angle of leaning. that's why i set it to 180 when i tried DST - just wanted to have more "distance" available for turning my wheel than 50 degrees.

But directsteer=2 is not default steering, and the same approach is not really applicable to it.

i'm not talking about that approach being applicable or not, i just told why me and DD used 180 degrees for default steering mode.

Please, do me a favor. Back up your controller and calibration files, make a separate Logitech profile for GP Bikes with Degrees of Rotation set to 50 (or temporarily set the global profile to that), and drop this DS configuration into your GP Bikes profile.ini:

Code Select Expand

[hardcore]
directsteer=2
directsteer_maxangle=25

In the options I would recommend assigning L/R rider lean to the wheel buttons, set view Tilt to as close to 100 as still comfortable enough, remove any headtracking/looking into turn or into lean (to make sure these things won't affect your lean perception while you are getting to grips with direct steering) and make sure that the Linearity slider for the Lean is in the middle at 100.

Now, take some "user friendly" enough bike (like the CBR600RR above) to a track you'll feel comfortable at while practicing ("trial" might be the best for that, or the already mentioned Grobnik, or Funring) and give it some riding time, let it sink into you.

so, i have tried this today and i'm still not going to change my opinion it's weird, it's too hard, it's not realistic and not similar to real bike controlling, it's not for car wheels and gamepads.

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

all this sounds to me like a newbie exprerience. i was a pro at some FPSs in the past and saw similar situations: newbies always like some uneffective things, they think it's all just about getting used or personal prefer, but at the end they always suck with their setups coz they do not see deep into the game due to their poor experience. same here, about simulators. as i said before, i spent a lot of time for testing MX Simulator with handling mode pretty similar to DS, it doesn't work at the end, you will never be able to become a good rider with this kind of handling.

I can accept racing simulators in which learning curve is somewhere near reality - here i mean efforts/hours spent to reach real fast lap time with condition such as 1) you really do not push to fly from any corner 2) you must be able to be constant with a good lap time. And looking at my experience, skills/consistency, laptimes in MXB and GPB (plus some other sims before them as part of virtual riding experience), I can say that the time/efforts I spent to reach them is quite realistic.

That's another possibility. But I wouldn't strictly call something like that a sim (if that matters). A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example).

A learning curve approximation is probably the best of both worlds, especially if it has a mathematically sound sim underneath. But it still needs to be not only about as hard (or easy) as RL, but also about as fun as RL, in my opinion.

in my opinion controlling lean angle with default steering is some different fun comparing to RL but it's close as possible to the feelings\technique of controlling the bike IRL, it's more intuitive and does not fall in total contradiction with my natural perception of bike controlling IRL whilst DS does fall.

How can it be "as close as possible" if you don't pull the bars on a real bike to a lock to expect the tightest turn? Name at least a single similarity between RL and the default steering.

i already described everything but seems that i should try to find other words well.. despite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural. DS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars (wheel with 50 degrees angle actually) and you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already. for me realism of bike control in sim is about natural feeling of control technique, of lean itself (talking of process, not the angle), of brakes and throttle on all bikes and all speeds. actually the only realistic thing in direct steering is the possibility to fully control lean angle, but control process itseslf is not realistic - i mean how it feels when you try to turn the bars, how it feels when you switch to 125cc bikes and so on, it's wrong.  and by the way, regarding your words: " A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example)." - the first sentence is fully correct, the second is not. proper simulator must be drivable and should be felt natural.

[passerBy]

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

It is more realistic because you do to the wheel pretty much the same thing you'd do to the bars in RL. Especially if you'd be able to impart exorbitant amounts of torque to the bars.

Furthermore, I did another experimentation. Brought a younger chap into this and did a little bit of training with him. The progression was surprisingly quick. Of course, it helped he had no prior experience with the default steering, but I think several hours of "rewiring" might be enough to start making progress even in that case.
Later on I told him about the default steering and switched the sim to that. He was puzzled on how anybody in their right mind could ride like that Took him quite a lot of attempts before he started going straight and making turns in the default steering. After that he said, "yes, this seems to be easier once you got used to it, but I still prefer direct steering".

So, it just depends on your dedication. Just a couple of days or so, I believe, and I wonder if you would even think about going back to the default steering.

all this sounds to me like a newbie exprerience. i was a pro at some FPSs in the past and saw similar situations: newbies always like some uneffective things, they think it's all just about getting used or personal prefer, but at the end they always suck with their setups coz they do not see deep into the game due to their poor experience. same here, about simulators. as i said before, i spent a lot of time for testing MX Simulator with handling mode pretty similar to DS, it doesn't work at the end, you will never be able to become a good rider with this kind of handling.

"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators...
I understand you hating the fact that direct steering forces you to learn to ride bikes anew, but let's stop making excuses, calling names... and just be honest for a second. This is a sim. And you can only properly control it via direct steering. Don't want to learn that? A huge loss on your part. Especially because you have a wheel. Just don't go telling "it's not realistic" because you simply don't want to invest time into it. You can learn it. I'm sure pretty much anybody can, since I made quite a huge progress compared to how I started, while also helping one other person achieving the same. You just care too much about your lap times/how fast you are on the track compared to others, afraid to lose something of that and not believing you could actually make more progress using direct steering (after all it gives you full control over the bike and shortens the reaction time). But more importantly, you don't realize what you are missing in terms of pure fun.

As for MX Simulator, I spent a lot of time with it too. Also couldn't make much out of it, but at least it gave me the idea to ask Piboso to add a similar steering system into GPB. And now, in a comparatively very short time I made a huge progress in MXB, which I could never dream of in MXS. Because GPB/MXB is not the same as MXS, they are much more suited for direct steering.

despite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural.

Except there is a lot of things going on to deal with in order to lean the bike. Not sure if you seen that video of a biker coming out of a blind right hander and making it into the oncoming lane and hitting a truck there because he was trying to steer away from that truck. With the default steering he would get away with that. RL dictates that there's at least the counter-steering to consider.

DS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars

Which is how you actually do it. I hope you don't believe you can influence the bike's lean strongly and quickly enough just by shifting your body weight?

(wheel with 50 degrees angle actually)

Well, that's the amount of angle I pulled from the bikes' config files themselves. It's just there it is set as the angle from 0 to a lock, whereas in the Logitech profiler it goes from one lock to the other. 25 * 2 = 50.

and you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already.

Ironically, I could never get used to any bike game/"sim" before... Had this problem with GP500, had it with SBK2001. With GPB alphas too...
But only with this latest direct steering mode in GPB I could finally feel at home. Yes, it was a lot of falling at first, but hey, that's to be expected not having g-forces to help you and having a very small field of view (and a crappy wheel for the bars to boot). The bottom line is, now I'm dropping the bike for a different reason I'm finally confident with the bike and started pushing it before I learned the tracks better. I know them from the car sims, but that's not helping a lot.

for me realism of bike control in sim is about natural feeling of control technique, of lean itself (talking of process, not the angle), of brakes and throttle on all bikes and all speeds. actually the only realistic thing in direct steering is the possibility to fully control lean angle, but control process itseslf is not realistic - i mean how it feels when you try to turn the bars, how it feels when you switch to 125cc bikes and so on, it's wrong.

For me a sim is something that can help you learn to use the object of simulation properly, not something that tries to match the object's difficulty.
I wonder what you would say about DCS helicopters... They are hard as hell at first, especially if you don't have a better controller. I'm sure you'd have less hard time learning to hover the real life helicopter.
But consider this: if you managed to learn to do it with so many disadvantages in a sim, it will be much easier for you to switch to the real one.

and by the way, regarding your words: " A sim is an as close a mathematical model to reality as possible. Even if it's completely undrivable (like a proper bicycle simulator would be, for example)." - the first sentence is fully correct, the second is not. proper simulator must be drivable and should be felt natural.

What you are talking about is rather something different. I'd call it a "perceptive rather than mathematical approach to simulation". And it's worth investigating too. But that's not something I'd call a pure sim, for better or worse.

[passerBy]

I didn't know this was possible... Hooray for the IK
https://www.youtube.com/v/-cMlVh3PKdM

[loinen]

I'm afraid all that boils down to just "too hard" in the end But it's not too hard per se. I guess your problem was coming from the default steering. Because as I already mentioned, after switching to default steering for the sake of experimentation I found it to be much more difficult instead. And it was really weird and unrealistic. I mean, how realistic it is to turn the bars to a lock and expect your bike to simply follow the tightest circle?

it boils down to "too unnatural" mostly, taking too much time with never possible stable real lap times. of course if you got used to DS you will feel weird def steering, it's normal and doesn't mean that DS is more realistic.

It is more realistic because you do to the wheel pretty much the same thing you'd do to the bars in RL. Especially if you'd be able to impart exorbitant amounts of torque to the bars.

it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators... 

me too. motos since gp500 and sbk 2000/2001, cars - since the earliest beginnings (having almost all since gtr in license). lock on, ka-50... not played as an offline noob, i played them all competitively, some more, some less but mostly hardcore competition if you know what it means.

I understand you hating the fact that direct steering forces you to learn to ride bikes anew, but let's stop making excuses, calling names... and just be honest for a second. This is a sim. And you can only properly control it via direct steering. Don't want to learn that? A huge loss on your part. Especially because you have a wheel. Just don't go telling "it's not realistic" because you simply don't want to invest time into it. You can learn it. I'm sure pretty much anybody can, since I made quite a huge progress compared to how I started, while also helping one other person achieving the same. You just care too much about your lap times/how fast you are on the track compared to others, afraid to lose something of that and not believing you could actually make more progress using direct steering (after all it gives you full control over the bike and shortens the reaction time). But more importantly, you don't realize what you are missing in terms of pure fun.

no, you don't understand. i'm always okay about learning, i would stick to direct steering if i felt it the same way as i felt it when riding bike IRL, i'm all for the most realistic handling, physics and so on. there is nothing about worrying for lap times compared to others, it's not my psychology. as i said before: i can accept handling system if it brings the same realistic result (lap time) after same realistic effort put into it (training intensity) and it feels natural for my mind since first start. DS fails here. i tried it several times hoping for best and i quit.

As for MX Simulator, I spent a lot of time with it too. Also couldn't make much out of it, but at least it gave me the idea to ask Piboso to add a similar steering system into GPB. And now, in a comparatively very short time I made a huge progress in MXB, which I could never dream of in MXS. Because GPB/MXB is not the same as MXS, they are much more suited for direct steering.

how much time did you spent for DS with GPB/MXB? I mean months/years being training this. What's your stable lap time at Victoria and how many stable laps in a row you did max atm and which bike?

despite that lock, default steering feels much more natural when it comes to lean process and the result of that process: if you want a bike to lean left you simply lean left and you don't fall, that's all enough, this is realistic and natural.

Except there is a lot of things going on to deal with in order to lean the bike. Not sure if you seen that video of a biker coming out of a blind right hander and making it into the oncoming lane and hitting a truck there because he was trying to steer away from that truck. With the default steering he would get away with that. RL dictates that there's at least the counter-steering to consider.

we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

DS is not about simple lean left if you want to lean left. all the guys of direct steering always talk so much about turning bars and lean angle as a main criteria of realistic handling. seems that you also stick to control of lean angle by turning bars

Which is how you actually do it. I hope you don't believe you can influence the bike's lean strongly and quickly enough just by shifting your body weight?

i believe bike leans when applying pressure to the bars. but you probably know that many people riding bikes IRL don't know that because they do this intuitively not knowing anything about counter steering or how it actually happens or is called. and to speak shortly my complain about DS is that it's not intuitive at all.

and you don't see how weird is the process of training\working with those virtual bars in DS mode, you got used to it already.

Ironically, I could never get used to any bike game/"sim" before... Had this problem with GP500, had it with SBK2001. With GPB alphas too...
But only with this latest direct steering mode in GPB I could finally feel at home.

well, then you probably feel bike control in some different way compared to most of us using def steering.

i don't feel losing any useful experience by denying DS usage. I still learn a lot about bike behavior even being on def steering, i know what i do and easily understand what and why happens. also i dont like that DS works better for SSP bike but works worse for others, this is another reason why i think it's a wrong path to go. at least with gamepads or car wheels.

[passerBy]

it doesnt feel and look the same as IRL, it doesn't bring proper result in proper amount of time with proper effort spent at the end. that's why i cant call it realistic. theoretically it is but practically it isnt.

I already said that such a wheel doesn't represent properly the feel of an RL wheel and it behaves differently, yet you don't mind using it for car sims. Whatever you use for flight sims is even farther from what an actual pilot uses.
If you want the exact look and feel, you have to spend probably more than an actual bike costs, or alternatively do a fair amount of DIY'ing on a better controller, and that still will set you back a lot.
What I surmise would be realistically the best controller for DS is a rig similar to what DD is making, but with the bars clamping to a direct-drive wheel, set at an angle, with rider lean via headtracking, plus a big wide screen.

Not sure what you mean with the "proper result in a proper amount of time". You use the autopilot which needs to be told about the bike lean first before it could start assuming the said angle. You call that a "proper result in a proper amount of time"? Ok, maybe the PID-based DS is a little more latent than the direct torque value input, but it's still miles ahead of the autopilot in terms of sheer immediacy. The amount of effort required purely depends on your controller FFB. Don't have a high-end wheel (me neither)? Then don't complain about how bad it is at rendering the forces and at discerning the angles fed into the system. That's the sole reason why "practically, it isn't."

Again, remember car sims the wheel is made for. Do they fare much better? And if you'd put a set of bars on the wheel and some proper pedals at your feet, that would probably change a lot? Well, at least that's what I want to do...

"Same here, about simulators"? Just to let you know, I'm into simulators longer than the majority of those discussing who is a "newbie" and who does "always suck" have lived so far. Into many kinds of simulators... 

me too. motos since gp500 and sbk 2000/2001, cars - since the earliest beginnings (having almost all since gtr in license). lock on, ka-50... not played as an offline noob, i played them all competitively, some more, some less but mostly hardcore competition if you know what it means.

I got into simulators before getting my first PC, which was a PC XT (if you know what that means), so I don't see why I should be taking "noobs" coming from anyone (what's with the teenager talk anyway?)
I don't really care about playing competitively. I do like challenge though. That's why I learned to drift pretty much everything, including the "Tandridge" in WRS, to hover over a cargo in the DCS UH-1 and then carry it, say, to an oil rig on a sling. It is challenging, but it gives you a lot of fun after you start getting better at it. Even more so with direct steering. In a car sim you don't have to drift or race, but you still can have a little fun from the steering process and the FFB themselves. Because you control the car directly. The default steering in GPB (or any other bike game or sim ) robs you even of that... What's the point of riding a bike like that? It could as well be a rally co-driver sim.
But switch the direct steering on, and there you have it -- a good amount of steering fun, which is fun in itself. Plus some FFB that makes sense (at least compared to any other mode).

no, you don't understand. i'm always okay about learning, i would stick to direct steering if i felt it the same way as i felt it when riding bike IRL

And the default steering feels more the same way you feel in RL? Maybe holding a joypad and twiddling the thumbsticks feels in any way similar to riding a bike? What about cars? Why not drive them using the joypad too then? Just crank up all the steering helpers and race around. Who cares about immersion when you can win in a competitive match, right? After all, a cheap wheel (what I consider any Logitech one to be, realistically) can't provide an experience close to what you have in RL.

i'm all for the most realistic handling, physics and so on. there is nothing about worrying for lap times compared to others, it's not my psychology. as i said before: i can accept handling system if it brings the same realistic result (lap time) after same realistic effort put into it (training intensity) and it feels natural for my mind since first start. DS fails here. i tried it several times hoping for best and i quit.

And what is a realistic effort? Consider you are learning to ride a bike from the start. Without any help from your vestibulary system and with a very limited field of view. What kind of time you are realistically expecting to bring you up to the pace? I'm afraid "several times" just doesn't cut it, unless you are young enough and extremely good at learning new skills. Yes, at the very beginning it's easy to get the impression that you won't be able to learn this in a reasonable amount of time. I know that firsthand. But when you see somebody else doing it, that means you can do it too. Especially when that someone doesn't pretend to be some sort of a prodigy or anything, and just shows you the process of "getting there" with all the hurdles on the way. Giving up after several tries is easy, but it won't get you anywhere.

how much time did you spent for DS with GPB/MXB? I mean months/years being training this. What's your stable lap time at Victoria and how many stable laps in a row you did max atm and which bike?

Well, certainly, the amount of time I spent on the first mode back in 2013 helped, I guess. Probably did 20 to 50 retries before I could actually start the thing rolling But that was the first mode on a joystick. And it was back in the 2013.

I think the first time I tried the second mode with the G27 was when either the beta 4 or the beta 5 was out... Surprisingly, I could make the bike going right away (that's probably where the DS1 experience helped me), and it felt tons more natural than the DS1. But after trying to ride around a little I came to the conclusion that the feature is not ready for the prime time (tight turns and slopes were still a nightmare). Then I'd give some new betas a go from time to time, ending up discarding those too.
So, it's relatively safe to assume that the real training started only once I rejoined the forum and posted in this thread. Factor in that nothing else ever really helped me get to understand how to actually ride a bike, and no, I don't have a real bike experience, partially because of my own set of health considerations, partially due to the financial side of things and due to the logistics involved. Basically, I had to start learning to ride a bike.

The amount of time I spent totally on these sims is hard to assess. It's not like I was practicing all this time. Maybe it was closer to a week of days where I would spend from 2 to maybe 5 hours a day on this. Sometimes would make one to two laps, and there was enough time with me not touching the sims at all (especially during the time where I couldn't use the computer itself for a while).
A very small portion of the total time was invested in MXB, because I have to learn that too, and having very little idea about the vertical stuff surely doesn't help. At the moment it's pretty puzzling for me how one lands these things if the jump wasn't done while being totally upright. Though, I kind of succeeded on producing a semblance of a whip. Still, I expected the bike to respond more to the spinning front wheel in the air.

Consistency and "stable laps" are not about me at all Even in the car sims I could be hardly bothered to go for consistency. Even less so in GPB, of course, since I'm still looking for more efficient ways of entering and exiting the bends. The lap times should gravitate more towards 1:50 for now, since I recently achieved 1:45 at Brands Hatch, and I tend to have the same times on different tracks for some reason.

http://www.youtube.com/v/efVfbOPvSAo

And yes, I'm perfectly aware that it should be more like 1:30, but let's say I don't care about the lap times a lot My priority is rather feeling the bike and having fun rather than reaching certain lap times. Otherwise that will turn it into a job, and I don't want that. Also, I'm not a lot into small circuits, I very much prefer "touring at speed", hence making even ten consecutive laps over the same circuit is more of a pain for me. That's why I love Nordschleife, but even there the prospect of doing more than three laps is not exactly thrilling.

I still drop the bike every now an then, but that's mostly due to either the track being too bumpy, so I still tend to get the tank-slappers on braking from high speeds, or to hitting those steep kerbs at the Ring, or to coming off track after missing the entry point, not getting close to the apex, then making it worse under excessive throttle. I almost stopped dropping it on hanging off while going through a sweeper. It was just a matter of more confidence and properly using brakes, gas or both. Still think the physical modelling could most likely be improved even more, but there is no perfect sim after all. Neither of the car sims is exceptionally good either, but many of them are still very much usable.

The best bikes for DS so far, in my opinion, are the KTM, the "Murasama", the 600 cc "Blade" and the classic Augusta. The Yamaha from the same set as the RC8 is good too. The MotoGP 2015 bikes are probably the best, but they feel a bit too precise for my taste... From the WSBK 2017 set the Aprilia is very stable (but the Ducati is more fun).
For MXB that "OEM" 2003 Suzuki is very nice. The 2016 Yamahas are not bad either.

we don't know actual reason why he did that. at least he got license so he should know what to do.

Not everyone having the license knows what to do...

i believe bike leans when applying pressure to the bars. but you probably know that many people riding bikes IRL don't know that because they do this intuitively not knowing anything about counter steering or how it actually happens or is called. and to speak shortly my complain about DS is that it's not intuitive at all.

Well, judging by the video that rider also tried to act intuitively, which brought him straight into the truck. I think it's one of the most important things to learn what exactly happens when you try to steer the bike. Also I think that riding games could potentially kill riders in those situations. He got that urge to turn right from somewhere, after all.
You say that DS is not intuitive at all, but I'm still not sure how exactly it is not intuitive for you. Personally, I believe that GPB "switches" a little too early from "just steering" to counter-steering. But that might be because the sense of speed is not good at slow speeds (pretty much every sim is affected). The other problem is that the wheel doesn't provide a lot of torque resistance at high speeds and has some play, but that's pretty much a wheel-related problem. I'm sure that a direct-drive wheel would be a huge improvement. Or at least a good belt-driven one. Have to deal with what we have...
Did I miss anything?

well, then you probably feel bike control in some different way compared to most of us using def steering.

The problem is, I couldn't feel the bike at all in anything but GPB/MXB with DS2 with force-feedback. Not having a real life reference probably influenced that greatly.
Then again, imagine you never been on a bike before (and probably never will). Would you go for the default steering or for the DS?

i don't feel losing any useful experience by denying DS usage. I still learn a lot about bike behavior even being on def steering, i know what i do and easily understand what and why happens. also i dont like that DS works better for SSP bike but works worse for others, this is another reason why i think it's a wrong path to go. at least with gamepads or car wheels.

And I have an explanation why one bike works great with DS, while you'll be dropping the other one often without much reason. Do ANY of the modders test their bikes in DS? Most likely not. They make bikes to use with the autopilot, and that thing tries hard to keep the bike from capsizing (sometimes it appears to me that it tries TOO hard).
If the direct steering would become the standard, and if Piboso invested more time into polishing it out, I see no reason for the bikes not becoming about as stable as the real ones.

[vali_grad]

holy canoly...you guys have a lot of time to write..more than I have to read )