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My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

Started by Klax75, May 24, 2014, 11:30:21 PM

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Klax75

June 03, 2014, 11:07:44 PM #30 Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 03:50:26 AM by Klax75
Quote from: Alby46 on June 03, 2014, 04:23:44 PM
what do you use for manual l/r lean?

My Controller Setup: XBox360 Wired Controller.

I have slight deadzone's set for Clutch and Rear Brake so I don't hit them by mistake if I move forward or back when steering. I only ride in helmet view so I don't use the change view button much, if at all.

Klax75

June 07, 2014, 06:07:33 AM #31 Last Edit: June 07, 2014, 06:10:45 AM by Klax75
Two laps around Mugello, I turned off Anti-Wheelie and Traction Control to see if it felt different. When I started GP Bikes last summer I never used those, since Anti-Wheelie was on or off with Beta3. There wasn't different strengths off it. Becoming more and more natural, just the smaller bikes are a little harder. The 125cc, and 250cc, not impossible though.

Not the fastest laps. First was a 2:10 and the Second was a 2:12.


DST 2 Laps at Mugello RC213:

http://www.youtube.com/v/WRpiaJN75T8

Klax75

My on going obsession with learning DST. lol

Here is a me on the NSR 500cc at Nordschleife doing one lap from a standing start. It's not a world record or anything. ;) It is from helmet view and then, shows the same lap from TV Camera view.


DST NSR 500cc at Nordschleife:

http://www.youtube.com/v/szKahubrZcQ

Hawk

Your getting better and better with this DST...... Riding on auto or even manual rider is one thing, but riding with DST is a total new ball game and I believe requires you to practically learn to ride with GPB all over again from scratch. I totally admire your dedication and perseverance mate.... Amazing job so far!  ;) ;D 8)

Hawk.

Diplomat

Hey Klax,
Well done getting so good with torque steering. Seeing your progress here has inspired me to reinstall GP Bikes and give this a go.

A question to make sure I'm on the right track; you've probably noticed that at high lean angles that the bike starts to want to 'fall in' to the corner. How have you been counteracting this? Reducing the rider lean when the bike is further over? Applying a bit of steering torque to lift the bike up? Any custom setups to minimize the effect?

Cheers,
Si

Klax75

June 16, 2014, 10:04:39 AM #35 Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 10:07:19 AM by Klax75
Quote from: Simeykins on June 16, 2014, 08:15:12 AM
Hey Klax,
Well done getting so good with torque steering. Seeing your progress here has inspired me to reinstall GP Bikes and give this a go.

A question to make sure I'm on the right track; you've probably noticed that at high lean angles that the bike starts to want to 'fall in' to the corner. How have you been counteracting this? Reducing the rider lean when the bike is further over? Applying a bit of steering torque to lift the bike up? Any custom setups to minimize the effect?

Cheers,
Si

Only thing I am using is the throttle, and steering the opposite way with the handle bars to hold the lean again I want.

So a left turn would be, I turn in left get the turn and lean again I need, then I start turning right during the turn to hold the angle. Then even more right to stand the bike back up. Using the throttle to help hold the angle and give it a little more throttle to help pick the bike up. The throttle while also help slow the bike from "falling" when initially starting the turn.

At speeds around 40-45 mph or so the bike will want to stand up a little more on it's own, which is good for hard braking or tight corners.

Also have full manual controls, and full manual rider control for his movements.

Diplomat

Cool, thanks for that Klax.
So basically a lot of practice with throttle and steering control to the point where you can pre-empt it.

I've done some practice, but I think I'm limited by the smoothness of control I can achieve with my el-cheapo imitation playstation controller. I imagine being able to crack the throttle a touch will be very important to maintaining stability of the bike, which I just can't do. Time to fix my steering wheel and pedals.

Cheers,
Si

Klax75

One big thing is using Manual Rider. I haven't tried auto rider in beta 5, but in Beta 4b, auto Rider with DST. He wouldn't lean at all left or right.

rodney007

Wow this is hard... feels wrong in my opinion.

I just don't see why the game should be significantly harder to ride than my race bike in-real life?

HornetMaX

Keep in mind rodney that it took you quite some time to learn to ride a bicycle (and with all the feedback you have when you are on a real bicycle).

That said, Direct Steer on a joypad is also hard because you have no force feedback: likely, direct steer on a wheel with force feedback is a bit easier (but not much).

Max.

rodney007

Although if the OP is wanting the most realistic feel this is not how to go about it... or is it?

HornetMaX

Well, it's hard to define "realistic".

With DST you're using the same "input" (the handlebar torque) as in real life, but in real life you also have other "inputs" (weight shift), without mentioning that in real life you don't produce the input acting on a small joystick (that would be hard in real life too, probably).

Now I do agree on your point: if it's too much harder than riding a real bike (and we know why it is so), then it's not really realistic.

Only sure thing is that DST is the most challenging way to play with GPB.

MaX.

Hawk

Maybe, and this is just me thinking off the cuff, but just maybe this is only hard to begin with until your mind and finger co-ordination become automatic according to what your eyes are seeing on screen. Maybe the really hard part is retraining your mind to accept the inputs needed to ride GPB in this way, and that once mastered, this is probably the most realistic way to ride in GPB?

I know Klax has put a very lot of hours into practicing with DST with everything fully manual control, and I guess that sort of dedication and stubborn persistence that it won't beat you is what a rider needs to really learn this DST way of riding GPB, and not to expect it to be the logical way to ride GPB. After all, controlling GPB with a wheel or Xbox controller isn't a logical way to ride a motorcycle(in real life) but it is acceptable to your mind because we've become accustomed to playing sims/games with these interfaces. So to my mind the secret to mastering DST is about retraining the mind to accept this way of controlling GPB.

Just my thoughts on the difficulty of getting your head around DST as a beginner.  ;)

Hawk.

HornetMaX

No, it's not only the difficulty to adapt to a different set of controls (which is indeed there and takes some time to be defeated).

It's also (mostly I'd say) the fact that with DS you have no limit on the lean angle: if you keep the stick left, the bike will lean left until it falls. This does not happen without DS, the virtual rider prevents us from falling when we push fully left and we should have not.

Without DS, we push fully left and the virtual rider computes the maximum lean angle for the situation (depending on speed, grip, tire status etc) and tries to achieve this.
That's a lot easier than taking care ourselves of that task

MaX.

Klax75

June 22, 2014, 06:44:15 AM #44 Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 06:59:15 AM by Klax75
Trying to think how to answer questions without coming off as patting myself on the back. :/

On the old forum we had talked about DST, and DS. I was new to GP Bikes and always want to get things as close as possible to real life, since I can't actually do these things. So last summer I turned on DST, to try it. I found it impossible to use. :) Then went back to Default steering.

It was actually Max who inspired me to give it another try again.

A couple months ago, when it was mentioned again. I decided I've played GP Bikes for a year. I know I am not the fastest rider out there, but I could get around the tracks with confidence. So was DS, or DST impossible like people had said. Or was it my lack of time using it. So I decide, I would switch to it, and I would keep trying it until I was able to do it. When I compete in races I would go back to Default Steering just for that event, so I am more competitive. Not because DST is slower, because I wasn't confident pushing to the limits. Other wise I'd only use DST (For me I found DST better over just DS). Crash, after crash, after crash, just getting the bike to move, was a chore.

So I practiced, fell down, fell down again. Saved my replays, watched my replays. What was I doing wrong. Since there is nothing holding the bike up other then me. I'd turn in to a turn, then fall down. I turned in to a turn again fall down. I'd try again realizing throttle meant more, realizing in the turn I had to turn the handle bars the opposite way to hold the bike up to stop it from falling. I had to hold the throttle more consistent.

I didn't play GP Bikes for a couple days, I came back to it. It was like things made sense. I knew why I was falling down, and suddenly had a better idea of how to fix it. I started falling less, I was paying attention more to what was happening on the screen. I stopped worrying about what my lean angle was compared to real life. Then I started seeing with the 990, I was getting it down to 59-62 degrees lean angle without realizing it. I started being able to tell that is what it looks like visually to be leaning that far. Then I could add more throttle in and out of the turns. I could try to break harder.

Is it for everyone no, can you turn it on and go around the track for a full lap first, second or third time using it no. Is DST impossible to use no, it takes a lot of work and practice. My mind is constantly thinking what I am doing, when using DST. The only time I'm not thinking about what I am doing is that short time in a straight. Going back to default steering feels like I can't get the bike to fall down. I can push to the turn as hard as I want and it will stay up. I only fall when breaking, or throttle to much.

The more I do it, the better I am getting at it. The less weird it feels, and more natural it feels. I am thinking about what I am doing, at the same time I know automatically what I need to do. So then I can push harder.

The smaller bikes like the 125cc, and 250cc are harder to use with DST. Since you can't rely so much on squeezing the throttle and having the engine help you pick the bike up. Well the 250cc, has more power behind it so it is a little easier.

Once I did that first complete lap on a track without falling. Knowing I was well off my default steering pace. Yet I still did it, that wall of this is to hard and impossible was gone. I suddenly felt, I want to do that again, I want to do it again and go faster! This isn't impossible, I can do this. Lap times started coming down. I still have a lot to learn, to get competitive. It's like for me I am doing more yet getting more out of it if that make sense. Do I still fall down yep, but not nearly as much as I did. :)

I posted video to show it's not impossible maybe get one of the fast guys on here to try it and see what they can do. :D Who understands bikes better then me, that can actually set up a bike well. I really stink at setting up bikes, or setups in general lol.

Although you're not seeing the 150+ or so replays I've saved and watched to see what I can improve on or what I am doing wrong. :)