Prototype gp500 physics model

[Alby46]

i just needs some work not just weight reduction

[HornetMaX]

Why not Max?

Because.
GPb tries hard to simulate the appropriate physics. Granted, there are times were you can tweak the values (compared to the real ones) in order to get what you want.
But the comments C21 has made are scary: front head 1.45 Kg ? Change mass without changing the associated inertia ?

About the weight: I really really doubt Piboso gave the varese a wrong weight. I'm ready to bet a kidney (plus what's left of Jamoz brain) on that.
If you feel the bike is heavy, the problem is somewhere else (assuming there is a problem).

I agree that with my modified physics the 500s are perhaps too wheelie prone. Can I reduce that tendency within the cfg file..I notice there is a "wheelinghelp" adjustment in the cfg file. By adjusting this would this reduce that tendency to wheelie in the higher gears?

The wheeling help is an electronic anti-wheeling: I don't think you had that on 500-era bikes.

In my honest opinion I do not think it has much to do with the physics model for the older tyres. In my own opinion the problem is not grip, or lack of it, I think the problem is one of weight and steering geometry. Having experimented with the physics model I am personally now convinced of that fact.

I think if you stuck stickier (or modern) tyres on the 500cc bike you would still have the same problem going on in the background. That my take on this anyway.

You could easily verify that: put the 990 tires on the varese and try.

You seem to be bothered a lot about the bike agility: have you tried to switch direct steer ON and see how it feels ? To some, having direct steer OFF is just a no go: the bike feels ultra heavy.

A final advice: in order to modify successfully the physics of a bike (unless you're only changing some trivial parameters) you have to have some basic knowledge of mechanics and physics plus some bike specific knowledge. It is my understanding you're graduating: if it isn't something like literature or asian civilizations, I can point you to a few very interesting books that could give you the bases.

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Did a few laps on Victoria . Back to back Test. Bike is now 10-12km/h faster on the straight.
But Wheels up to 5th gear. Really nervous to Ride compared to the Std file.
I'm Not the approptiate Person to judge the 500cc because i did Not Ride the 500cc Bikes that much.
I would raise the Chassis Mass up and also the Engine inertia. Don't know why you changed it, was the Engine response Not aggressive enough ?
Steering wheigt is drastically reduced to 1.45.....hui.
Think you made a mistake at the rake angle Setting....1.125... The Setting is connected to the geom file
You reduced the Masses but Not accordingly to the inertias.

BTW: you've got two Times "driveline values" in the cfg

Only a Short Look at the cfg and a few laps...don't have more Time yet....

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate that. I'll tidy up the file a bit.

This was obviously an experiment. I personally like the fact the bike is more nervous to ride. It's personal preference I think but these bikes did have a tendency to being nervous in real life.

If you raise the chassis mass up it does seem to negate the effect of the quicker steering responses and the ability to track tighter lines through the corners. I experimented with that earlier. But I do hear what you are saying. Loud and clear.

I actually didn't mean to change the engine inertia at all. That's is a "typo" on my part and nothing more. I'll put that right now. I will also get rid of the extra "driveline values". Another typo that has crept in I'm afraid.

"Steering wheigt is drastically reduced to 1.45.....hui."
Again I tried this to obtain a quicker response in the steering. If this is badly wrong or unnecessary I will change it back.

I agree main problem is an increased tendency to wheelie. Having said that the original physics were quite wheelie prone. But I agree not to the same degree. As I mentioned in my above post is there anyway to calm this tendency down other than increasing weight?

Finally would just say my "test" track for this was Silverstone (and Cadwell) so I'm sure faults/problems may well and probably will crop up at the other tracks..

This is the first time I have even opened up a physics file on gpbikes. I am a complete novice with editing the gpbikes' physics files. I can only hold mu hands up to that. 

But this was an experiment on my part to see what I could maybe achieve if I did.

In truth I think I am probably not the only person who thinks the gp500 bikes are a bit sluggish in their handling. I am interested in investigating if the feel of the 500s can be improved a bit.

I don't want to tread on anybody's toes to any extent whatsoever however in doing this. I just feel that the gp500 physics might be able to evolve a bit in a positive direction. That's all.

grT 

[C21]

Hi max nice reply
Looking deeper into the file i really Wonder...
You adjusted the Whole Front and Rear Suspension New.
Dou you know what the values are about? E.g. Setting0=1500,1600?
What does both values represent?

Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Rebound values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files

Edit:
@tracey
The physics of GPB is Not that Easy....you have to know how it Works....but i started as you did
I agree that the Wheely tendency is still too much especially After upshift. You have to do both geom and cfg to reduce that but it's still to much.
I also agree with max that direct lean on makes a Huge difference in Direktion changes...for my Taste it is too quick...i Drive it Off.

[girlracerTracey]

Just tried it and now it feels just weird. Yes it changes lean angle & direction slightly faster, but corner speed seems even lower then with the std bike, so that results in going wide in almost every corner unless you massively brake it into that corner and reduce speed so much you lose your whole momentum.

I think a feeling similar to the 250 would suit a 500 more. Just slightly more weight and a little less grip due to the older tires. Right now the standard 500 physics do not represent the light & agile bikes from my memory

I think that is valued feedback JamoZ. Clearly this is a first blush by me and nothing more.

I completely agree that a feeling more similar to the 250 would suit the 500. That's the way to go with this I think.

As regards engineering knowledge I have to confess I am not qualified in that respect. But this is also about the seat of the pants feel in the 500cc bike as JamoZ says.. I think you address both aspects with this sort of thing. In real life if left solely to an engineer it wouldn't be right and arguably if left to the rider alone it wouldn't be right either.   

Anyway, thanks for the feedback everyone.

grT

[JamoZ]

(plus what's left of Jamoz brain)

Hey! Leave me out of this, i did nothing wrong.



Anway, i don`t care about numbers, tires, bolts, nuts, flywheels, weight and pink teddybear`s. Just that this basically describes my whole 500cc experience in this game :

[Klax75]

I'm curious. Is it about how Piboso's 500cc handles, or wanting it to handle more like your last motorcycle simulation that you have played for years? Just a thought.

[girlracerTracey]

Hi max nice reply
Looking deeper into the file i really Wonder...
You adjusted the Whole Front and Rear Suspension New.
Dou you know what the values are about? E.g. Setting0=1500,1600?
What does both values represent?

Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Reling values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files

Edit:
@tracey
The physics of GPB is Not that Easy....you have to know how it Works....but i started as you did
I agree that the Wheely tendency is still too much especially After upshift. You have to do both geom and cfg to reduce that but it's still to much.
I also agree with max that direct lean on makes a Huge difference in Direktion changes...for my Taste it is too quick...i Drive it Off.

Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer. All this arguably does is quicken something up which should have been quicker in the first place.  It sort of masks the original problem. If indeed it is a problem. That's my honest take on this.

I wholeheartedly agree that gpbikes physics' are complicated. There's no denying that. But something in my opinion does not feel quite right with the original gp500 physics.

I suppose in a way me posting all this here is a way to gauge people's opinion on that subject.  As I say I mean well in what I am trying to say here. I really do. I am not criticising anything. I am just trying to offer my own opinion that is all. Also you guys are very used to the gp500 physics. You are familiar with them. That can be a plus and a minus in some ways. Plus because you have a good understanding of the current physics model but maybe a minus because you have become comfortable with it?

That is all I am saying. I personally would love to see it evolve a bit further as I love the gp500 bikes.

grT 

[HornetMaX]

Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Reling values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files

I don't see setting 4 equal to setting 9:

Code Select Expand


Damper
{
BumpThreshold = -0.05
Bump
{
setting0 = 1500, 1500
setting1 = 1600, 1500
setting2 = 1700, 1500
setting3 = 1800, 1500
setting4 = 1900, 1500
setting5 = 2000, 1500
setting6 = 2100, 1500
setting7 = 2200, 1500
setting8 = 2300, 1500
setting9 = 2400, 1500
setting10 = 2500, 1500
setting11 = 2600, 1500
setting12 = 2700, 1500
setting13 = 2800, 1500
setting14 = 2900, 1500
setting15 = 3000, 1500
}
BumpSetting = 7

ReboundThreshold = 0.05
Rebound
{
setting0 = 2500, 2500
setting1 = 2625, 2575
setting2 = 2750, 3100
setting3 = 4000, 3400
setting4 = 3000, 3700
setting5 = 5000, 4000
setting6 = 3250, 2500
setting7 = 3000, 2800
setting8 = 3500, 3100
setting9 = 4000, 3400
setting10 = 3750, 3700
setting11 = 3875, 4000
setting12 = 4000, 2500
setting13 = 4125, 2800
setting14 = 4250, 3100
setting15 = 5000, 4000
setting16 = 4500, 3700
setting17 = 5000, 4000
setting18 = 4750, 3850
setting19 = 4875, 3925
}
ReboundSetting = 7
}


The fact the values are not monotonic (front rebound) seems suspect, but we don't know exactly what they are (at least I don't). Piboso is our only hope. As always

MaX.

[HornetMaX]

Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.

Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.

Did you try it ?

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

I'm curious. Is it about how Piboso's 500cc handles, or wanting it to handle more like your last motorcycle simulation that you have played for years? Just a thought.

I think that's a very valid comment. My honest answer is that I don't think the 500cc physics in terms of turn-in, "agility" and ability to hold a tight line are as reflective of real life as they could be.   

That's all I'm saying.   

[girlracerTracey]

Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.

Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.

Did you try it ?

MaX.

Yes I have tried it Max. For me it is not the answer. It does quicken up steering but with a "trade-off" in how the return to upright is made etc. It's not for me I don't think.

I read the thread on the "direct leaners" club and I think I do have a feel for what you guys are saying though.

grT   

[HornetMaX]

Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.

Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.

Did you try it ?

MaX.

Yes I have tried it Max. For me it is not the answer. It does quicken up steering but with a "trade-off" in how the return to upright is made etc. It's not for me I don't think.

OK, so you're essentially saying that direct steer ON solves the issue, but it has a side effect. Kind of proves the point I was trying to make.

I'm not a big big user of the 500, but what I recall of it it didn't look that hard to flick or steer (relative to the bikes of its era).
And again, getting the bike weight wrong would be so un-Piboseqsque I can't even imagine it.

This page (general information: I kinda like the girl on the top right corner):

http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2012/04/when-cagiva-went-gp-racing.html

says the c594 was 130Kg.

In the .cfg file of the varese you have:

• chassis: 80
• steer: 10
• Front susp: 5
• Rear susp: 8
• Front tire: 12
• Rear rire: 15

That makes, guess what, 130Kg. OK, you have to add the discs (2 front @ 1.28 each carbon / 2.56 each steel + 0.77 for the rear), but we are there.

It also rates it at 300Kmh max speed. Notice that max speed depends of course on the gearing, so ...
Anyway it's nowhere close to the current 350+Kmh of a motogp.

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

OK, so you're essentially saying that direct steer ON solves the issue, but it has a side effect. Kind of proves the point I was trying to make.

That's not what I said Max. What I said above was that in my opinion direct lean on "masks" the original problem. If indeed there is a problem.. 


Thanks for the additional info. That is useful to know.

I'm going to have another look at the cfg file and play a bit more with the values bearing in mind what you and others have pointed out to me.

I'm not a big big user of the 500, but what I recall of it it didn't look that hard to flick or steer (relative to the bikes of its era).

No surprise but I have to politely differ with you on that. The 500 grand prix bikes for their era and compared to the modern day for that matter, I believe were easier to flick and maintain a tight line on than they are simulated to be in gpbikes with the standard physics model. That's just my own personal opinion however.   

Look I love gpbikes. I really do. But I cannot get away from the thought that there is something in the gp500 physics model in relation to turn-in and an ability to hold a tight line that could be improved upon. As much as I enjoy those 500s..

grT

[HornetMaX]

Another thing worth pointing out is when you ride around the track on gpbikes sometimes it feels slow.. It all makes sense when you watch the replay though!

That's a perception thing: the feeling of speed is pretty hard to reproduce on a screen, plenty of factors come into play.

I've recently tried Kart Racing Pro (thanks dibu !): made by Piboso, same graphics engine as GPB/WRS, but you just feel the speed much much more.
You can try the demo, you'll see what I mean.

MaX.