Old School Speedo

[Hawk]

Btw: I was talking in the present tense not the past tense in that part of my sentence, so your grammatical corrections in my post are incorrect.

You misunderstood their meaning: they weren't grammatical corrections (your grammar was absolutely fine, at least to me), they were correction in the meaning of the sentence, in the message the sentence carries. What you were saying at present tense, I disagree on: I think it is only true at past tense.

PS: I bet you're a cracking chess player Max?

Nope, learnt to play but didn't liked it. I was decent at backgammon though.

And I'm almost always a picky old bugger, nothing special today

MaX.

Hi Max.

Lol... no probs..... My mistake for the misunderstanding.  Hope no offence was taken by my reply post, just a little light banter I thought.

Though I do feel that todays riders should be made to rely on their seat of the pants skills rather than be aided by electronics, and if the current bikes are just too dangerous to ride without the aids then they should go back to the good old 2 stroke 500's(I wish!!  ). 

Hawk:

PS: Have you unpacked your PC yet? Thought you might like to test "Hawk Park" for me? It has terrain now so no falling off the track into the twilight zone. Hehe. 

[EdouardB]

I just want to add (to be precise) that there were 18 GPs in 2013 vs 16 GPs in 2003 so the gap is perhaps bigger than it seems - however Haga was riding an Aprilia which had mechanical problems that induced crashes so it's complicated. In 2004, Ruben Xaus was the rider who had the most crashes and he had 15 crashes over 16 Gps (vs Marquez with 15 in 18 races in 2013). I feel like my point is still valid.

[HornetMaX]

Hi Max.

Lol... no probs..... My mistake for the misunderstanding.  Hope no offence was taken by my reply post, just a little light banter I thought.

I'm not sure I've ever taken offence a single time on this (or the past) forum. And for sure not from you

PS: Have you unpacked your PC yet? Thought you might like to test "Hawk Park" for me? It has terrain now so no falling off the track into the twilight zone. Hehe. 

Unpacked ? That's gonna happen in more than a month from now, they took it this morning
I'm writing from a Mac laptop, hope you can understand my condition

MaX.

[Hawk]

I +1 all the above, including the CAPITALS

I also think most of the ones that "dislaike" electronic aids overestimate a lot what electronic can do. You still need a damn good rider to go fast.

MaX.

I too +1 on what Edouard has stated.

Also agree that, "You still need a damn good rider to go fast.", Max.

It's just a case of wanting to see rider and machine racing rather than rider through electronic aids racing around. As Edouard stated, "In MotoGP, electronics are NOT used for safety. At all. It's purely a performance tool."
"What I mean by that is that the only reason that MotoGP riders use traction control is because nowadays it actually improves the lap times."
This is just what I've been arguing; an increase in performance from what they could achieve without electronic aids. They should cut out the electronics. Lets see who would be top dog without them. 

Hawk

[EdouardB]

They should cut out the electronics. Lets see who would be top dog without them. 

Ironically I think the championships standings would probably be pretty much identical to what it is now. Let's not forget that the top MotoGP racers, before being in MotoGP, won everything in 250 or Moto2, that have no electronics, and were better than their rivals who are now behind in the grid in MotoGP... Inside the top 4 though, some things could change, but I'm not sure honestly. Marquez is doing great and so did he in Moto2, 125, CEV, you name it...

[Hawk]

They should cut out the electronics. Lets see who would be top dog without them. 

Ironically I think the championships standings would probably be pretty much identical to what it is now. Let's not forget that the top MotoGP racers, before being in MotoGP, won everything in 250 or Moto2, that have no electronics, and were better than their rivals who are now behind in the grid in MotoGP... Inside the top 4 though, some things could change, but I'm not sure honestly. Marquez is doing great and so did he in Moto2, 125, CEV, you name it...

You could well be correct, but it would be interesting to see which riders could consistently ride very well without the aids compared to the ones that could possibly be relying more on the aids to keep up there performances throughout the season?

Hawk.

[EdouardB]

Maybe, I have no clue

[HornetMaX]

This is just what I've been arguing; an increase in performance from what they could achieve without electronic aids.

Hmm .... nobody could do manually what a TC or anti-wheeling does.

They should cut out the electronics. Lets see who would be top dog without them. 

But why ? Why not then "they should put the weight limit to 200Kg (or 100Kg) and see who is the top dog with that" ?

MaX.

[Hawk]

This is just what I've been arguing; an increase in performance from what they could achieve without electronic aids.

Hmm .... nobody could do manually what a TC or anti-wheeling does.

Exactly. Then the performance would be totally down to the rider and bike alone. Which is what I'd like to see happen.

They should cut out the electronics. Lets see who would be top dog without them. 

But why ? Why not then "they should put the weight limit to 200Kg (or 100Kg) and see who is the top dog with that" ?

MaX.
[/quote]

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to explain?
If you allowed 100 meter sprinters to use spring loaded running shoes, then of course they would run the 100 meters faster than they normally could, right? Now in sporting terms that is cheating in my mind. The same with regards to when swimmers started to wear those shark skin swim suits which aided their gliding through the water quicker(which they have now banned); it's just not true sport to do that sort of thing. I mean motorsport is a test of man and machine against the competition, it shouldn't be about man, machine + a box of electronic aids which allows a rider to get faster times than they normally would do without those aids?

I think I'm getting were your coming from..... In that you feel that what does it matter if(for instance) they all have electronically controlled kinetic drives powering their bikes/cars which allow them to zoom around the tracks at full throttle without ever falling off/crashing so long as they all have them then what does it matter if that is current technical progress? Of course that is taking things to the extreme, but I think this is your basic argument on technical progress in sports? All I can say if that is your thinking is, "What a boring sport motor racing will become". I cannot believe that is the sort of advancement you pro-e/aids guys would want in this sport, is it? Because if they continue to allow these advancements in electronics aids then for sure they will continue down that line until the rider is literally not really needed anymore accept to twist the throttle and lean the bike then the computers will take care of the rest, he'll just be there for the spectacle. Similar to what F1 used to be like.

Another analogy: What if golfers were allowed to use a pendulum putter, would that be fair sport? Would that deter from the skill needed to putt a golf ball? Of course it would. This is why they are banning those long handles putters now, and about time too! 

Hawk.

[EdouardB]

it's just not true sport to do that sort of thing. I mean motorsport is a test of man and machine against the competition, it shouldn't be about man, machine + a box of electronic aids which allows a rider to get faster times than they normally would do without those aids?

I think this sentence is interesting because if you think about it, it's quite subjective:

- electronics are not true to the sport: it's an opinion (that I somewhat share, I honestly try not to think about it too much as I'm very conflicted), if you ask Honda, they will tell you it is just like when electronic ignition appeared in the 80s, it's part of the sport for them.
- everyone agrees it's about man+machine, but is the electronics part of the machine? For you it's not really (more of an addition), but I'm pretty sure if you ask Honda they will tell you it's part of the machine.

Overall I'm very conflicted about this because I dislike any kind of filter between me and the throttle, and at the same time it's just part of technology and it's hard to say "let's ban a whole side of technology from the most technological racing category there is"...
Also, there has always been some "unfair" advantages in racing and it's part of the competition. The way the companies see it, when a rider wins a championship, the company wins with the rider too. It's a 2 people team.
What I mean by that is that to them, electronics are OK: it's not unfair to them, it's just work they put in to get the championship.

Having said that, I wish we could have no traction control in MotoGP, but it's just an opinion and I'm still confused about it.

[HornetMaX]

I mean motorsport is a test of man and machine against the competition, it shouldn't be about man, machine + a box of electronic aids which allows a rider to get faster times than they normally would do without those aids?

Oh well, thats your definition of motorsport Hawk. For you motorsport = no electronics. That's arguable at best.

I do understand what you're trying to say, I just don't agree. You think that electronics help are bad because they help the rider.
Well, then a better suspension helps the rider too: what should we do ? Ban good suspensions and stick to 20 years old ones ?

We all agree there's a limit somewhere on what you should and what you should not allow in terms of electronics.
But the limit you ark for (zero electronics) is nowadays not acceptable. You can't ask Honda, Yamaha and the others to do "Old School Racing" .... this only works here on this forum

As a side note, I don't think races with less electronics would be a better (or worse) show: last season and this season MotoGp races have been very enjoyable "despite" the aids.

MaX.

P.S.
Ach Edouard has been faster

[RBp]

this makes no sense spectator=money. if you dont care for the pocket that feeds your desire then what?

You think we get a % of the profit from a motorsport  event or have to pay to enter the event?  only the top few guys make money from spectators


As for electronics being developed for lap times and not safty I would agree but some electrics are developed for safty reason alone.  Electronic aids make riding safer for those of us that don't have motogp riders skills, that evident just walking down a pitlane and watching how how the rider walk comparded to riders of yestadays.

BTW it not easy to lean on the electrics corner after corner lap after lap,

The safer I feel the faster I go
the faster I go the more competive I am
the more competive I am the better the race

[tseklias]

You think we get a % of the profit from a motorsport  event or have to pay to enter the event?

first of all who is we? and yes the more funs a sport have the more likely is to be established-evolve. someone asks someone else offers this is the oldest tactic of marketing, a percent of the percent still goes to the pocket of the riders i dont think this is something to argue. this is like it is.

[RBp]

We is motorcycle racer,   Marc get money, rossi get money from.....   99% of racer don't mate, we pay for it ourself's,     Try booking into a local round and see how much they pay you?

[tseklias]

We is motorcycle racer,   Marc get money, rossi get money from.....   99% of racer don't mate, we pay for it ourself's,     Try booking into a local round and see how much they pay you?

well i dont have any experience on that so you may be right, but i cant really figure out any other way that this can occure. i cant book into any local round since i live in greece and we have only kart, mini-bike circuits and drag strips not a long circuit. and i wont book on any of these cause im not really a fun of spectate, i dont like karting and i cant race with minibikes cause the competition is at a whole different level and im a little bit old and much taller than those riders.