Manual Rider Movement and Weight.

[Klax75]

I have a suggestion and question about Manual Rider movement. I use it solely and was wondering two things in Beta 7 can we please make it so we can tuck in fully at any speed. Right now manual rider movement is smoother then it was, no snap down instantly like beta 3-4. But you still can only get behind the wind screen once you hit 90mph. Would be nice even if I was going any speed to be able to tuck in any time I want.

Which brings up my other questions. They way I've come to understand the rider animations, they are just visual queues that show the movement of the invisible weight sphere that GP Bikes calculates as you move it around the bike. Shifting the weight around, on the bike calls up the appropriate animation for that lean. Since there is no collision detection with the rider and the tarmac surface. Putting the bike at a lean again of 60 the riders knee will be down, where as putting a lean angle of 63 the riders knee will start to be in the ground, since there is no collision with the road and it is just calling up a pre-done animation.

Now since the rider only full tucks in at 90mph, and the animations for the rider are pre-done and do not interact with the world environment. I have been wondering, when I am manually moving the rider forward, as far as I can push the stick, but the rider animation doesn't tuck in until 90mph. So it got me wondering does the riders animation effect the weight of the bike? Or does pushing forward all the way forward move the weight distribution even though my rider won't fully visually tuck in until 90mph? Ever way the animation should tuck in at any speed, and the weight should visually show the rider move on the bike at any speed also.

This same kind of thing happens when I use iRacing, the hands on the steering wheel will only turn the wheel so far. Yet the wheels on the track will actually turn much further. Talking to there support people I learned I need to shut of the virtual arms of my driving so I can see the exact movement of the virtual steering wheel. Then it will match what the front tires turn angles.

[JJS209]

true words klax.

imo the ridermovements physicaly effect like in beta5, but the animation is a different one.
as klax said the knee turns in on a specific speed and its not possible to lean in every situation like you could (in betas before) do.

[PeterV]

This same kind of thing happens when I use iRacing, the hands on the steering wheel will only turn the wheel so far. Yet the wheels on the track will actually turn much further. Talking to there support people I learned I need to shut of the virtual arms of my driving so I can see the exact movement of the virtual steering wheel. Then it will match what the front tires turn angles.

Iracing interesting...Stout and me are doing that lately, didnt notice that at all, but did not pay attention too it as well, i will now however. Sorry for the offtopic please continue.

[Hawk]

+1 Klax

Absolutely agree with everything you said above. 

Hawk.

[Napalm Nick]

I've been out testing and I wondered if you know that if you use MANUAL F/B rider movement but ALSO have AUTO selected that you CAN tuck in at any speed. I use both modes together to give me some control where I want it - another example was Brno on the uphill S bend where I could turn right but lessen the body lean angle lessening the chance of falling on the 'anomoly'.     Its really nice, particularly the Tuck in or Sit-up early.

The other thing is that when tucked in (early) during hard acceleration it seems to prevent (lessen) the tankslappers. This is great of course because tucked it would do this with the weight movement so it proves the physics nicely - however note the word 'seems'. More testing needed.


I do wonder if this observation has already been made but I cant find it by a quick search?

[Klax75]

I've been out testing and I wondered if you know that if you use MANUAL F/B rider movement but ALSO have AUTO selected that you CAN tuck in at any speed. I use both modes together to give me some control where I want it - another example was Brno on the uphill S bend where I could turn right but lessen the body lean angle lessening the chance of falling on the 'anomoly'.     Its really nice, particularly the Tuck in or Sit-up early.

The other thing is that when tucked in (early) during hard acceleration it seems to prevent (lessen) the tankslappers. This is great of course because tucked it would do this with the weight movement so it proves the physics nicely - however note the word 'seems'. More testing needed.


I do wonder if this observation has already been made but I cant find it by a quick search?

I tried it out and your right it will let you tuck in at speeds below 90 mph. The down side for me is the forward / back movement is slower. You can tuck in but compared to manual it feels delayed and was really throwing me off. lol I kept flipping the bike over. Even when pushing forward on the stick it's feels slower, though smoother animation.

[Napalm Nick]

Klax,

Agreed! Maybe there is a bit of confliction going on. Personally I think being able to control the tuck in outweighs the speed difference but that's because I haven't invested many hours in brain/thumb training yet.

It also means having an assist on which would be no good on 'no assist' servers. The best way forward would be to allow tuck-in at any speed in manual control (only) but also KEEP the ability to have both manual and auto selected to allow some control for the majority of rider assist players. Having both is also a nice introduction to swopping to manual only too.

[HornetMaX]

I haven't checked but maybe it is the way the override works: when auto rider lean is ON, your manual rider lean input is "mixed" with the input generated by the automatic rider lean.

If I recall correctly, if you're in a right turn and the rider is leaning right, asking him to lean left will "only" bring him to the center position, because your input in compensated by the auto rider lean input. So essentially you can't go completely against the auto input. For left/right it is not a big deal (doesn't make much sense to rider lean left in a right turn), but for fwd/back maybe ...

Still, it doesn't explain the slowness ...

MaX.

[Napalm Nick]

You are correct max, leaning left manually while cranked in a right will only give a return to centre.

Maybe the same is happening eg: auto rider doesn't want to lean forward yet, but we are leaning forward manually so it is 'restricting it'. Dunno but I do know I like having the mixed inputs.

[Napalm Nick]

What I would really like to see is some aerodynamic measurable and noticeable advantage/effect of tucking in/sitting up or apart from aesthetics and weight physics there is actually little point to it. 

One for the wish list?

[HornetMaX]

What I would really like to see is some aerodynamic measurable and noticeable advantage/effect of tucking in/sitting up or apart from aesthetics and weight physics there is actually little point to it. 

One for the wish list?

Looking at the data of the bike, there should be an aero advantage when tucked in (there's a minCdA and a maxCdA in the aero section of the bike's .cfg).
Should be easy to test: oval track, long gears, manual rider fwd/back; get at max speed with rider tucked, then pop out ...

MaX.

[Napalm Nick]

Thanks Max that is really interesting.

I have seen the figures for bike aero drag but not associated anything with the rider. I have done a few pop ups already and see no difference whatsoever. Would I be right in thinking a smaller bike should possibly see the most difference?
I would probably expect rates of acc/deceleration to change, probably most noticeable in the revs. Could it be monitored in MaxTM? It shouldn't need to be though it's an effect that should be felt I'm sure. I know I feel it on my bike.
Will go Oval testing.....

[HornetMaX]

The easiest is probably to increase a lot the maxCdA and see if that shows anything: you go max speed (of constant speed with constant throttle, but it's harder) and then you pop  the rider out.

If I'm not wrong at a given point (beta4 maybe) there was an horrible bug about min/maxCdA (iirc, they were inverted), but I think it has been corrected a long ago.

MaX.

[Napalm Nick]

1st impression - popping out is troublesome - it is very slow. Tucking is quite fast. You can only manually tuck when accelerating .

[HornetMaX]

Oval track, 125cc bike with default settings, manual rider f/b: I can tuck-in even if not accelerating, but only if above 140Kmh. The movement happens at reasonable speed. The effect of not being tucked-in is not very big but is there: top speed is 229Kmh tucked in, you lose a few Kmh if you don't tuck in. Editing the .cfg and settig maxCdA to 0.8 (form the default 0.25) makes the thing much more visible.

If auto rider f/b lean is activated, then you run into issues as described above: when the auto f/b wants to be almost fully back, if you want to tuck-in it is very slow.

To be honest, when the "rider lean override" feature has been announced by Piboso I was a bit skeptical as I can't see how you can mix the two (auto + manual override) without generating conflicts or strange behaviours. That said, it works probably OK for left/right lean (which can help in some tricky turns).

MaX.