smart style DS track with NDS track

[Yohji]

now we using DS and NDS tracks.
but, we had two folder, so I tryed pack these it to one folder. base is DS. NDS includ as layout.

smple is here.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8z1c8mntGtLVkZ2UnBXNy1zVWM/view?usp=sharing
(sry, its KRP tracks.

[HornetMaX]

Nice finding Yohji !

This can save quite a lot of hassle (avoid duplicate tracks, save a lot of up/download), I'm sure Hawk is very interested !

@Hawk: man, another "easy" task for you

2 remarks:

• 1. For Ali's Best-lap service: just check we don't mix different layouts of the same track in the stats
• 2. One day, hopefully, we'll only have DS tracks

MaX.

[Hawk]

Hi Yohji.

A VERY good idea in theory, but to include the NDS track version in the same track folder as the DS version in practice, in my opinion,  it is not a wise thing to do... I'll explain why:

The NDS tracks are only a temporary fix for the DS core.exe crash related problems, and once Piboso has fixed that problem I would then have to go through all the track folders to take out the NDS versions for each track folder. Whereas with the way it's done now in the track downloads database, all I'll have to do is move the NDS track versions over to an archive folder leaving the DS versions already there and available in the database.

I am very impressed with the way you have done this, but I feel it is best kept for assigning different same track layouts to the one track folder, which as I said, I'm very impressed with the way you have done that! 

But if you feel I'm misunderstanding anything, then please do let me know. 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Hmm actually there's no absolute need to "take out the NDS versions for each track folder" once DS issues are fixed: you could keep them and take them out only at the next track update.
It's just a way to save on the total number of tracks (better to have 100 tracks with 2 layouts each than 200 tracks) and on the overall up/download size (instead of 200x100MB you'll have something like 100x130MB).

To me it's all good. That said, it would be quite a pain to go through all our existing tracks and do the job. Maybe we can only apply that to new track / new track versions. E.g. if Noss makes a v2.1 of HockenhiemRing, then the new 2.1 could contain both DS and NDS (and DS should be the default one,if you ask me). Then, if DS gets fixed in GPB, the day Noss makes a HockenhiemRing v2.3, he could ship only the DS version (no need for an NDS layout).

MaX.

[Hawk]

Hmm actually there's no absolute need to "take out the NDS versions for each track folder" once DS issues are fixed: you could keep them and take them out only at the next track update.
It's just a way to save on the total number of tracks (better to have 100 tracks with 2 layouts each than 200 tracks) and on the overall up/download size (instead of 200x100MB you'll have something like 100x130MB).

To me it's all good. That said, it would be quite a pain to go through all our existing tracks and do the job. Maybe we can only apply that to new track / new track versions. E.g. if Noss makes a v2.1 of HockenhiemRing, then the new 2.1 could contain both DS and NDS (and DS should be the default one,if you ask me). Then, if DS gets fixed in GPB, the day Noss makes a HockenhiemRing v2.3, he could ship only the DS version (no need for an NDS layout).

MaX.

True, it would save storage space, and if storage space was an issue then that would become a high priority, but as far as the database is concerned it isn't a problem. Also I'm sure most riders don't download both DS and NDS versions onto their HD? I personally only download the NDS version and only download the DS version if an event requires it. Same as I'm sure everyone doesn't download all tracks into their track folder only their favourite ones. 

However, if we get track authors doing this, I'd have to reorganise and separate the database into NDS only tracks and DS+NDS tracks because everything will get confusing with some named for NDS and others named with just the track name..... It would soon become all too much of a mish-mash with people contacting me constantly asking were is the NDS track for this or that  circuit. 

I'm sure Piboso will have the DS core.exe problem sorted in the next beta(Fingers crossed. Lol), so for the sake of waiting for the DS problem to be sorted, it is just not worth the work involved to make sure everything runs smoothly without any confusion to users using the track downloads database, or the work that would be involved in reorganising the current database to make sure users were not confused as to which track version they needed to download.

There is an old saying that is very true: "If it works, why fix it". The NDS tracks are only temporary, the database works very well as it is, so let's be honest, why mess about with it? 

Don't get me wrong. I'm open and welcome anyone suggesting new ideas and ways to do things, but generally, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but generally there is a lot more things to take into account than just a new way to organise a track folder. 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

But you shouldn't reorganize the track folder at all. Anyway, no biggie, we don't need to rework existing tracks. Still, it's a better way to have DS and NDS coexisting (compared to have 2 separate tracks).

I'm sure Piboso will have the DS core.exe problem sorted in the next beta(Fingers crossed. Lol)

As you know, I'm often open for a bet on this kind of stuff (ask Matty). Are you really sure ? 

MaX.

[HornetMaX]

Forgot to add that I see one case in which having both DS and NDS could be useful: Hotlap events (which arguably should be NDS, even if we had no bug in DS).

MaX.

[Hawk]

But you shouldn't reorganize the track folder at all. Anyway, no biggie, we don't need to rework existing tracks. Still, it's a better way to have DS and NDS coexisting (compared to have 2 separate tracks).

I'm sure Piboso will have the DS core.exe problem sorted in the next beta(Fingers crossed. Lol)

As you know, I'm often open for a bet on this kind of stuff (ask Matty). Are you really sure ? 

MaX.

From Piboso's track record I think I'll keep my money in the safest place(my pocket)! Hehe 

My point is that it's work that isn't needed seeing as the NDS are only temporary, and the confusion it could create with mixing these folders with other NDS version tracks during the time it would take for every track to be updated(could be years. Lol), it's just not worth it; and as I said, I'm very impressed with what Yohji has done there, but I think it's best kept for what it's designed for and that is to include several different track layouts into one track folder; that it is a brilliant idea for. 

Forgot to add that I see one case in which having both DS and NDS could be useful: Hotlap events (which arguably should be NDS, even if we had no bug in DS).

MaX.

Well that is a real matter for debate, because in real life you don't have the option for NDS tracks for hot-lapping.

What I would suggest is a permanent semi laid down tyre rubber race line(I gather it can be created via a file?) to aid in the tyre grip for cold track hot-lappers? I presume it's this factor that your talking about Max? 

Personally I think hot-lapping is a total waste of time, because even if you are the fastest rider doing a hot lap of a track, it certainly has no bearing on whether that rider will either be the fastest on race day or stand any chance of winning a race, and certainly doesn't say anything about the rider being the best on any particular circuit...... It's just a total waste of time. 

I mean how many times do we see in qualifying for instance(barring the elite few), were the fastest rider in qualifying comes nowhere near winning the race in GPB, yet a slower rider who we think wouldn't stand a chance gets on the podium or even on occasions wins the race. I'm talking about over a proper race distance here not the 10-12 lap sprints that are too often being held right now. 


Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

From Piboso's track record I think I'll keep my money in the safest place(my pocket)! Hehe 

Chicken But a smart one at least 

Writing down that when you say "I'm sure that" you really mean "there's a tiny chance that"

My point is that it's work that isn't needed seeing as the NDS are only temporary, and the confusion it could create with mixing these folders with other NDS version tracks during the time it would take for every track to be updated(could be years. Lol), it's just not worth it; and as I said, I'm very impressed with what Yohji has done there, but I think it's best kept for what it's designed for and that is to include several different track layouts into one track folder; that it is a brilliant idea for. 

Well, temporary yes. But you know, paleolithic was temporary too ...

You don't have to change all the existing tracks (that would be a lot of re-upload and re-download), only the new ones (to come) and new versions of existing ones (to come).

Anyway, not a big problem, it's just more elegant (and efficient) done Yohji's way. I don't see where the confusion could come from. If anything, for the players it would be much simpler: track XXX will be a single track, the server admin will decide which layout to use. Zero issues, zero explanations to give to the players.

Forgot to add that I see one case in which having both DS and NDS could be useful: Hotlap events (which arguably should be NDS, even if we had no bug in DS).

Well that is a real matter for debate, because in real life you don't have the option for NDS tracks for hot-lapping.

In real life you don't hotlap over a week.

What I would suggest is a permanent semi laid down tyre rubber race line(I gather it can be created via a file?) to aid in the tyre grip for cold track hot-lappers? I presume it's this factor that your talking about Max? 

Sort of. To me in a hotlap event any racer should see the same track grip, no matter if the server has been packed with 20 riders for 2 hours or if it has been just restarted.
So yes, a pre-built groove could be there, but then it should be static (i.e. not grow over time). If that's not possible (I don't know), then I prefer no groove at all.

For races or any other event except hotlap, DS is a must. No debate here.

Personally I think hot-lapping is a total waste of time, because even if you are the fastest rider doing a hot lap of a track, it certainly has no bearing on whether that rider will either be the fastest on race day or stand any chance of winning a race, and certainly doesn't say anything about the rider being the best on any particular circuit...... It's just a total waste of time. 

Yeah, but there're people that can't race because they can't engage on being there at race time. And there are people that do prefer hot-lapping to racing.

Hot-lap events at the time were utterly popular. Much more than championships, because you can hotlap whenever you have 30min, any time of the day (and night).
So they may be waste of time for you/others, but to attract players, I think they are a very good thing.

MaX.