Unable To Lean Bikes When Front Wheel In The Air....

[BOBR6 84]

Im still a bit confused here to be honest hawk but I will give it a try in the morning when I get home and post a little video and see if its what you mean 

Just give it a try though at victoria! You will pull it off sooner or later 

To ride around on the back wheel taking corners at low speed etc is pretty much impossible in GPB at the moment (unless your name is Grimm! Lol)

[grimm]

Im still a bit confused here to be honest hawk but I will give it a try in the morning when I get home and post a little video and see if its what you mean 

Just give it a try though at victoria! You will pull it off sooner or later 

To ride around on the back wheel taking corners at low speed etc is pretty much impossible in GPB at the moment (unless your name is Grimm! Lol)

I saw this thread and thought to myself, has Hawk seen the video(s) I have posted elsewhere? lol


GP Bikes wheelies I put together in a compilation:

https://www.youtube.com/v/Reb11I0IZnM


Bunch of corner wheelies with DST on with Klax settings. Pretty epic smooth wheelies:

https://www.youtube.com/v/gQ_A8bAT22E




Here is my take on it, (in short, GP Bikes is spot on).


When I started street riding 13 years ago (I was an old bugger to be moving from dirt to street) I rode classic bikes for a bit, never knowing what turning a wheelie felt like, eventually got a naked Bandit 1200, and the wheelies began with a steep learning curve, I was old and broken from BMX riding, offroading didn't involve sustained wheelies at 55mph either! It was a new world! As I progressed into a total hooligan I found that turning a wheelie involved the front tire being VERY high up. You could initiate a little floater at lean angle or slightly into a lean one direction or another and keep that curve going on the smaller part/side of the tire and given a perfect world you could maintain it for quite some distance and with a little body english bring it back to upright and ride it down an entire strait away (MotoGP, WSBK, etc. do this quite often on victory wheelies), I've personally done the same thing many, many times.

To truly turn a wheelie where you want it to go takes a massive change in body weight placement on the bike while it is near or at the "balance point". GP Bikes similates these requirements rather well, if you could get more "body english" into the simulation I am sure you could lean the bike a bit more, but giving DST with the Klax settings a go, you may find that the behavior that you are seeking from the bike on a wheelie is far more prevalent when you have full control of the bike. Pretty sure the front end has a gyro effect on GP Bikes, if it doesn't this is one hell of a simulation! With DST, you can use the front wheel gyro to bring the bike into and out of lean angle on a wheelie.


Heres a 30 second standup on the Bandit (4th one now, love these things!), it moved around quite a bit, alot of correction to keep it moving strait down the road. Takes getting it up as high as GP Bikes to get this sort of manipulation in a wheelie.  (If you can't tell, I'm wheelie obsessed)
https://www.youtube.com/v/ewWTSdQLbMU

[HornetMaX]

Pretty sure the front end has a gyro effect on GP Bikes

It has it, probably from the very first alpha.

With DST, you can use the front wheel gyro to bring the bike into and out of lean angle on a wheelie.

I'm not sure you absolutely need DST to do that. In older betas when wheeling the front was kept straight, preventing you from using the steering to control the lean in a wheelie, but this is no longer the case so I'd say that you can do it even without DST. Someone with decent wheeling ability (in-game) could confirm that. Grimm ?

[HornetMaX]

The point is that it is do-able, even at high speed, and therefore the capability for this should be in GPB. We shouldn't have to wait for the front wheel to ground before we are able to take a corner in GPB, it's ridiculous.

Control while leaning is there in GPB. It's not huge, but even in reality it's not huge. What you see in the TT video is doable in GPB.

Can you show us a video of something real that it's not possible in GPB ?

[Hawk]

Thanks for the video's Grimm. Very interesting to watch those.... Very nice video's mate! 

So as I understand what your saying is that wheelie-steer is possible only if you use DST? Seeing your video's and that sort of control really makes me want to ride only with DST.... I'll have to get practicing! 

@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.
I have not tried wheelie-steer at very low speeds, something I'll have to try out as soon as possible. But if low speed is possible then obviously Piboso has that capability progressively turning down as the speed picks up - If this is so, then I think it's being turned down too much.... probably in an effort to try and avoid a virtual rider issue of not being able to bring the front wheel down in a straight line and causing a tank-slapping crash? That was just a thought. 

But if DST will allow full control even at higher speeds then I'm really keen to learn riding with DST now...... Wish me luck! Hehe.

Thanks for your interest in this subject.... I think it's an important one that needs getting right, and not one that an accepted workaround will make do(Workarounds are such spoilers of simulations).

@Max and Bob: I'll try to get a replay file link so that you can fully understand what the issue is. 

Sorry for any confusions.... Sometimes I have so many thoughts going through my head that what I want to say doesn't always come out as I wanted to express them..... But as they say: "I can understand what I'm saying!" Hehe! 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.

I know the spot Hawk. But there you're at +200Kmh going straight (bike not leaning), the front comes up thanks to the bump (slightly up, it's not a full blown wheelie): I don't think that in reality you would be able to lean the bike for the coming turn in these conditions without putting the front down first.

There may be something in the sense that as the virtual rider re-aligns the steering before the front touches down again (to avoid wobble), if the wheelie is small (front just off the track) you may have no control on the steering (at least not until the wheelie gets bigger). But for your specific bump at Victoria I guess we only have to find the right trajectory and bike setup to sort of avoid it (plus, of course, close the throttle a bit).

At Victoria I find the main straight (start/finish line) more annoying: exiting the last corner there's a bump that sends you into orbit. But even if you survive that, you're on the right part of the track, full throttle and willing to move left and it's surprisingly difficult to do so because the bike is slightly wheeling.

Maybe we should ask PiBoSo to (be able to) disable the "steering auto re-align in case of wheelie" thing and let the responsibility of that to the player. Don't know if that would be OK or too difficult to handle ...

[Hawk]

@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.

I know the spot Hawk. But there you're at +200Kmh going straight (bike not leaning), the front comes up thanks to the bump (slightly up, it's not a full blown wheelie): I don't think that in reality you would be able to lean the bike for the coming turn in these conditions without putting the front down first.

There may be something in the sense that as the virtual rider re-aligns the steering before the front touches down again (to avoid wobble), if the wheelie is small (front just off the track) you may have no control on the steering (at least not until the wheelie gets bigger). But for your specific bump at Victoria I guess we only have to find the right trajectory and bike setup to sort of avoid it (plus, of course, close the throttle a bit).

At Victoria I find the main straight (start/finish line) more annoying: exiting the last corner there's a bump that sends you into orbit. But even if you survive that, you're on the right part of the track, full throttle and willing to move left and it's surprisingly difficult to do so because the bike is slightly wheeling.

Maybe we should ask PiBoSo to (be able to) disable the "steering auto re-align in case of wheelie" thing and let the responsibility of that to the player. Don't know if that would be OK or too difficult to handle ...

I hear what your saying there Max, but I just hate having to workaround a problem that really shouldn't be there to such a big effect. I mean if the same effect had happened on my racing bike(many years ago. Lol) then I would probably be a permanent fixture in the Armco barriers. Lol.

I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? 

I'm going to test with DST as soon as I get time to see how much of this sort of control we have. 

Go on Piboso.... Please give us a test bike with this implemented so we can see what it would be like to ride.


Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? 

The problem is that unless you're using DST/DSA, you're not controlling the steering with the stick, but the target lean angle. How do you tell the virtual rider to "center the steering" ? Unclear to me.

Maybe its just a matter of tuning of the "re-alignement" stuff in order to make it a bit more permissive (even at the risk of increased crash chances when lading a wheelie in the wrong manner).

[Hawk]

I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? 

The problem is that unless you're using DST/DSA, you're not controlling the steering with the stick, but the target lean angle. How do you tell the virtual rider to "center the steering" ? Unclear to me.

Maybe its just a matter of tuning of the "re-alignement" stuff in order to make it a bit more permissive (even at the risk of increased crash chances when lading a wheelie in the wrong manner).

There must be some logical steps that will permit this action of the Virtual rider being able to centre the steering as the front wheel comes down to the ground?

Maybe work it off the speed the front wheel is either falling to the ground or accelerating upwards? So if the front wheel is falling to the ground at a rate that it will definitely touch the track then V/rider centres steering at ##inches from the ground? Likewise, if the wheel is above a certain distance from the track and accelerating upwards or downwards at a certain defining factor then the virtual rider is free to use the gyro forces in the front wheel and other means to turn the bike?

Hope you understood my logic? Lol 

Hawk.

[grimm]

I saved some video from the latest beta, just messing around last night after replying to the thread, no DST, just good old wheelies trying to turn them. I'll trim the fat off the footage and upload it this afternoon and post it up. There is situations you can turn the bike, and others that it flat out refuses to comply. Seems that the height of the wheelie really dictates the amount of turning you can do, throttle input plays a huge part as well.

[Vini]

Ah, I thought Hawk was more talking about the front wheel being very light and not about wheelies.
In that case, the situation is very similar to when you are trying to steer a bike with your weight alone and in that way GP Bikes is very realistic.


Now, when it comes to actual wheelies in GP Bikes, steering is only possible if the front is indeed very high up but when using manual rider lean you can steer the bike.
The reason why it may look unrealistic (not enough steering) may be because we forget how fast the bike is actually going in the game.
If you practice wheelies constantly in first gear (at 50 to 60 km/h max) in GP Bikes I am sure you will be able to steer the bike pretty well.
Steering a wheelie like in the Stunt video Hawk posted is maybe possible at those low speeds, with very light bikes and a short wheelbase.
For a MotoGP bike at anything above let's say 70 or 80 km/h, it's different.

Oh, and if you lock your front wheel once it is in the air with the brake, you can also control it completely independently of any bike behaviour in the game (even when you are not using DST).

[Hawk]

I saved some video from the latest beta, just messing around last night after replying to the thread, no DST, just good old wheelies trying to turn them. I'll trim the fat off the footage and upload it this afternoon and post it up. There is situations you can turn the bike, and others that it flat out refuses to comply. Seems that the height of the wheelie really dictates the amount of turning you can do, throttle input plays a huge part as well.

Thanks Grimm... I look forward to watching them mate! 

Hawk

[Hawk]

Ah, I thought Hawk was more talking about the front wheel being very light and not about wheelies.
In that case, the situation is very similar to when you are trying to steer a bike with your weight alone and in that way GP Bikes is very realistic.


Now, when it comes to actual wheelies in GP Bikes, steering is only possible if the front is indeed very high up but when using manual rider lean you can steer the bike.
The reason why it may look unrealistic (not enough steering) may be because we forget how fast the bike is actually going in the game.
If you practice wheelies constantly in first gear (at 50 to 60 km/h max) in GP Bikes I am sure you will be able to steer the bike pretty well.
Steering a wheelie like in the Stunt video Hawk posted is maybe possible at those low speeds, with very light bikes and a short wheelbase.
For a MotoGP bike at anything above let's say 70 or 80 km/h, it's different.

Oh, and if you lock your front wheel once it is in the air with the brake, you can also control it completely independently of any bike behaviour in the game (even when you are not using DST).

No probs mate.... Misunderstandings happen. 

I'll certainly be doing some testing on this as soon as I can...... Locking the front wheel with my front brake is going to be kinda hard seeing as my front brake is on my throttle axis. Hehe! 
I'll have to have a look at changing some of my controls axis's, especially as I want to practice with DST too. 

I appreciate it would be harder to turn at higher speeds, but in real life it certainly isn't like GPB were once the front wheel comes off the ground the steering or lean just freezes totally until the front wheel hits the deck again. Racing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? 

But anyway I'll do some testing as soon as I can...... Locking the front wheel with the front brake...... This is interesting stuff... I feel the need for tests! 

BTW.... Can anyone publish a good setting for DST(the .ini code)? I lost the one Klax gave me when I had to do a re-install. Thanks. 

Thanks Vin. 

Hawk.

[Vini]

Locking the front wheel with my front brake is going to be kinda hard seeing as my front brake is on my throttle axis. Hehe! 
I'll have to have a look at changing some of my controls axis's, especially as I want to practice with DST too. 

Oh, well then you'll also be able to revmatch

but in real life it certainly isn't like GPB were once the front wheel comes off the ground the steering or lean just freezes totally until the front wheel hits the deck again. Racing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? 

But it isn't like that in GP Bikes.
http://www.youtube.com/v/raHfN71Go5w
I started the wheelie at 45 km/h and ended it at 115 km/h.
Any more steering would be totally unrealistic IMO.

Racing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? 

I was talking about the enduro bikes.

[Hawk]

@Vin.... Very nice! But was that with manual rider(I'm presuming so)? I have not tried it with manual rider. So try with auto rider.... and let me know here if it works same or not. 

Thanks mate. 

Hawk.