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beta8 physics issues

Started by Vini, September 23, 2016, 03:30:05 PM

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Vini

September 23, 2016, 03:30:05 PM Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 04:06:54 PM by vin97
short video showcasing a few things that are not quite right (IMO): light front end, understeering front tyre (which I suspect is partly causing the extreme tankslappers out of corners) and highside physics

https://www.youtube.com/v/J0dHrAXxajU&vq=hd720

Blackheart

This is a mod Vin, different datas, geom from the default bike.

Vini

the same is possible with the mura (if it's really necessary, i can make a second video) but my point is that regardless of the specific bike geometry, the things you see in the video should not be possible for any two-wheeled vehicle.
this is not about grip, wobbles, max lean angle or anything bike specific.

also, i seem to remember piboso saying somewhere that (some of) the mod bikes have more accurate bike data than the default ones.

Hawk

You'll find that 99% of those issues you demonstrate in your video are bike physics related Vin and not GPB core physics related. So your aiming your video at the wrong person mate. Maybe you should tell the bikeMOD author/team of the bike your using about these issues instead and see what he/they have to say? :)

The only issue that will probably be GPB Physics related is likely to be the dragging of the bike around the corners at a weird angle(Probably cornering on a banked section of track with the track going either uphill or downhill, yes?).

Hawk.

Vini

Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2016, 04:42:31 PMThe only issue that will probably be GPB Physics related is likely to be the dragging of the bike around the corners at a weird angle(Probably cornering on a banked section of track with the track going either uphill or downhill, yes?).
yes and the incorrect front slip angle may be related to the front tyre being able to support the bike weight even though it's tucked in (could also explain a few random lowsides).

the mura takes of at the A1 ring jump as well (and I didn't even try particularly hard in that instance).

so the only thing left would be that the bike doesn't highside when it's supposed to. give me a bit of time and i will get you a demonstration on the mura as well.

Hawk

Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2016, 04:42:31 PMThe only issue that will probably be GPB Physics related is likely to be the dragging of the bike around the corners at a weird angle(Probably cornering on a banked section of track with the track going either uphill or downhill, yes?).
yes and the incorrect front slip angle may be related to the front tyre being able to support the bike weight even though it's tucked in (could also explain a few random lowsides).

the mura takes of at the A1 ring jump as well (and I didn't even try particularly hard in that instance).

so the only thing left would be that the bike doesn't highside when it's supposed to. give me a bit of time and i will get you a demonstration on the mura as well.

No point in using the default bikes as a demonstration; I think we all know that the beta 8 default bikes are not particularly fine tuned as far as their bike physics are concerned even though their data is accurate.  ;)

I can also tell you that getting the bikes to highside properly in the right situations is very possible if you set the bike physics properly.  :)

Hawk.

Vini

September 23, 2016, 05:18:26 PM #6 Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:22:01 PM by vin97
then what do you want me to do?

if it's just the highside thing, then disregard it. it's the least important issue anyway.

Hawk

Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:18:26 PM
then what do you want me to do?

Talk to the BikeMOD teams about issues instead of blaming everything on GPB core physics would be a good start..... There are short-comings on both sides, but I'm sure Piboso knows about GPB core physics related issues as they have been posted about many times in the past as you know, but it's not either easy or quick to get the bikes physics working properly and maybe it's easier for a bike physics modder to give-up and blame Piboso for their short-comings in being able to solve the issues themselves?

Hawk.

Vini

September 23, 2016, 05:26:41 PM #8 Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 05:45:23 PM by vin97
Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:18:26 PMif it's just the highside thing, then disregard it. it's the least important issue anyway.

edit: i am convinced that no matter how good the bike data is, the tankslappers will never go away because the front wheel is being dragged at an incorrect angle causing it to do weird things in some situations.

Hawk

Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:26:41 PM
Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:18:26 PMif it's just the highside thing, then disregard it. it's the least important issue anyway.

edit: i am convinced that no matter how good the bike data are, the tankslappers will never go away because the front wheel is being dragged at an incorrect angle causing it to to weird things in some situations.
No disrespect intended Vin, but that shows that your conviction is incorrect, because we know that you can cancel out tank slapping altogether if you know what your doing with the bike physics(you can easily have a bike running smooth as a babies bum as though it's on rails(but that would be inaccurate to reality)), but certain situations in reality require tank slapping to occur.... Just not all the time or in an inaccurate situational way. This is the difference between bikes that are well tuned and bikes that are not. Same with the front end wash-outs - these are down to bike physics tuning too(apart from some tracks that have terrible track surface mesh modelling). We have noticed some try and solve the front washout issue by increasing the front tyre grip dramatically; that is not the way to do it if your aim is realism, but it's an easy solution if you don't really know what your doing with the bike physics, but it doesn't give you a realistic result. A well tuned bike has depth to it's handling, whereas a badly tuned bike that apparently feels good has no depth and feels like an arcade milestone/ride clone.

All I'm saying is that it would just be a good idea to first talk to the BikeMOD teams about any issues first before automatically laying the blame on GPB core physics.  :)


Hawk.

Vini

Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2016, 06:30:41 PMAll I'm saying is that it would just be a good idea to first talk to the BikeMOD teams about any issues first before automatically laying the blame on GPB core physics.  :)
Been doing that and I'm sure Manu is doing everything he can to make his bikes as stable as possible.

Let my rephrase my comment: I don't think it is possible to reduce the amount or severity of tankslappers to a realistic threshold with bike data tuning alone, unless you use complete fantasy values.
I can't explain it in any mathematical or physical way but the way the bikes behave when pushing hard out of corners leads me to believe that the understeering front tyre is a big part of the problem.
It kind of feels like the front tyre puts the bike into a "reverse high-side", if that makes any sense. Maybe I will make a video that shows what I mean.

BOBR6 84

Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:26:41 PM
Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 05:18:26 PMif it's just the highside thing, then disregard it. it's the least important issue anyway.

edit: i am convinced that no matter how good the bike data is, the tankslappers will never go away because the front wheel is being dragged at an incorrect angle causing it to do weird things in some situations.

+1

Didn't piboso say that's to do with a physics limitation??

hope it can be improved because on some tracks it looks obvious and fugly..

Hawk

Quote from: vin97 on September 23, 2016, 06:44:37 PM
Quote from: Hawk on September 23, 2016, 06:30:41 PMAll I'm saying is that it would just be a good idea to first talk to the BikeMOD teams about any issues first before automatically laying the blame on GPB core physics.  :)
Been doing that and I'm sure Manu is doing everything he can to make his bikes as stable as possible.

Let my rephrase my comment: I don't think it is possible to reduce the amount or severity of tankslappers to a realistic threshold with bike data tuning alone, unless you use complete fantasy values.
I can't explain it in any mathematical or physical way but the way the bikes behave when pushing hard out of corners leads me to believe that the understeering front tyre is a big part of the problem.
It kind of feels like the front tyre puts the bike into a "reverse high-side", if that makes any sense. Maybe I will make a video that shows what I mean.


Fair enough.... I've tried to explain about tankslapping, but if you want to believe it's a core GPB physics issue then that's your right I guess.  ::)

There's an old saying that comes to mind.... "There's no leading the blind". Lol! :P ;D

Hawk.
PS: I think what your describing about the front tyre is when the tyre is losing traction and is about to washout. I saw it happening in your video posted above.  ;)