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Countersteering Controller Suggestion

Started by August1, October 12, 2016, 06:31:11 AM

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Manu

October 14, 2016, 11:55:26 PM #15 Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 12:05:11 AM by Manu
I use a force feedback steering wheel (Logitech G27) with adjustable degrees (120 in my case) and it feels like real for me. In my particular case with direct lean 100% and 120 degrees of rotation to simulate the inclination of the bike (60 degrees to each side). It is impressive how you feel every bump, every jolt same as real life... just great.

If I could attach the imput system of Mr. DD in my steering wheel would be the perfect controller for me.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

doubledragoncc

I CAN make my bars fit on the G27 as that is what I used to start the project after I had not done anything for years. I wire the throttle and front brake and clutch to replace the pedals and you can rewire the buttons!!! You can keep it for car racing too!!!

DD

EDIT: My original plan was to do a clamp on system for G wheels and TX too
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Manu

It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

RC45

I have a load sensor upgrade to brake pedal on my Thrustmaster T500 steering wheel setup.

The load sensor allows one to step hard on the brakes and have very fine control over all that force.

Would a handle bar setup using 2 load sensors to detect the counter steering input not allow the rider to put a lot of pressure on the bars allowing for finer control?


doubledragoncc

To be frank RC, NO. Using loadcells is just too over sensitive when I tested the same theory. You just can not hold a line and it is worse than using a gamepad. PLUS you have practically no movement so you feel like you are just sitting in the room and there is no feeling of immersion at all.

DD
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RC45

Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

Granted it would best be combined with a sit on rig so you could lean and push on the inside bar nice and hard and steadily just they way one does when on a bike at speed, but even a desk mount system that offered a lot of resistance would feel more natural to me than handle bars that rotated even a small amount.


doubledragoncc

Load cells are for brakes forget it for steering.

You just wont understand that you are in a room, NOT on a bike and it just does not work the same. You also have to consider physical fatigue when racing in a sim. As you are not able to use your full body as you do on a real bike when riding you end up using muscles not usually used and  if you are not careful of how the system functions mechanically you can actually damage muscles. I have been doing this for years and tried almost every way and found this out.

I can not see WHY people insist on having something that wont work? Because most wont look outside of the text book they REFUSE to except many FACTS about what can not be done and why.

It is really simple, the software today demands a certain amount of movement in order to be able to cover that movement in the sim, but if you made that amount of movement in real life you would crash all the time and it would be unrealistic. So now you try to use pressure or torque values to accomplish this and you end up having NO movement in the control system that feel boring and no fun, even if it is more realistic as you hardly move the handlebars in real life, it kills all the sensation of riding in the sim!!!

No matter what idea you have for making a realistic system, in the end you build a control that is boring and devoid of the feeling you want to have. It may work in the sim but your subconsciousness will tell you it feels wrong. Its just that you are going to be sitting still, not moving hardly at all. How can that fell real?

DD
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HornetMaX

Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

For brakes yes (even if it's far from sure it's worth the effort), but for steering ...

RC45

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 10:34:04 AM
Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 08:28:12 AM
Hmm, the advantage with using load cell on brake pedal is you can have very stiff pedal with little movement but large force applied by your foot/leg and very fine control and still not lock up the brakes in game.

Every time I play a driving sim with the load cell brake pedal I think how this might work for a bike .I would want to use a load cell for the front brake lever and rear brake pedal as well.

For brakes yes (even if it's far from sure it's worth the effort), but for steering ...

I have been using load cell brakes for 5 years now on the PC/PS3/PS4/XboxOne driving rig and would not bother using pedals without them. Being able to use proper leg and foot power on the brake pedal and modulate the force and not have brakes lock up is an essential part of the immersion.

When I ride I expect and would anticipate the front brake lever to be very firm, so a load cell again would give me the feel I would expect and anticipate - same for rear brake, which would allow for proper foot brake modulation.

I envision a speed sensitive steering setup that allows conventional turn left for left and turn right for right at very low speeds - under 1 or 2 mph then the steering locks up and all you get is about 10 degrees of rotation up against the load cells or similar force driven input that requires push left to go left and push right to go right and then as speed increases the steering lock decreases and stiffens up until at speed all you can do is push against the bars and the steering lock is now controlled by feedback from the game engine - so if you get a tank slapper you better be ready to hold on or rather loosen up on the bars and let the bike settle down and ride it out :)

There - that's my dream controller description :)

The reason I am so fired up and inspired today is because I finally got round to starting up my 1987 TZ250T that I was lucky enough to get hold of last year - previously it had been on display in the window of a little Japanese bike shop for the previous 25 years and was only let out for the occasional parade event.

doubledragoncc

but YOU still dont get it do you.

Because you have such a small amount of movement the system will be uncontrollable AND you will have NO real movement and just be sitting still in a room.

Your theory is good, but in practice it sucks, I know I have done it, what part of that dont you get?

It SUCKS!!! It gives no immersion except if you got your tankslapper otherwise you will get bored of it real quick. You NEED to be moving as on a bike not sitting still putting piddly amounts of movement even with pressure.

I guess I am just wasting my time trying to explain it. But I do wish you all the best if you do try it, just hope you are not too disappointing as I was.

DD
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RC45

Actually I do get it.  I know exactly what I want to feel when I ride - I currently sit still not moving any muscles except  2 thumbs and 2 fingers.  How is that not boring?

It just seems you won't permit anyone else to think outside YOUR box ;)

HornetMaX

Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 11:38:16 AM
I envision a speed sensitive steering setup that allows conventional turn left for left and turn right for right at very low speeds - under 1 or 2 mph then the steering locks up and all you get is about 10 degrees of rotation up against the load cells or similar force driven input that requires push left to go left and push right to go right and then as speed increases the steering lock decreases and stiffens up until at speed all you can do is push against the bars and the steering lock is now controlled by feedback from the game engine - so if you get a tank slapper you better be ready to hold on or rather loosen up on the bars and let the bike settle down and ride it out :)

There - that's my dream controller description :)
So what you want (minus some details that are a bit messy in your explanation), is Direct Steer Angle with a Force Feedback handlebar/wheel.
It should behave exactly as you want: low speed -> turn bars left (large angle) to go left; high speed -> turn bars left (small angle) to turn right.
All is already in: same direction steer at low speeds, countersteer at high speeds, low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

I cannot grant that it will "feel right" in practice though: as ddcc said, there are plenty of other considerations.

grimm

Quote from: doubledragoncc on October 14, 2016, 08:54:54 AM
Pressure sensors move only about 1mm try controlling that. I know its pressure but it is too sensitive. And yes I have wasted money and tried lol.

I think rider movement needs to be via gyro and accelerometer electronics. remember that test I did when there grimm?

You all seem to forget one thing about counter steering, it is a small amount at the start of turning not a large movement and THAT is what is wrong with all these "I turn my wheel left to go right like in real life" bollocks everyone says. You dont turn the frickin bars to the left to turn right, you apply a bit of pressure to the right of the bars which moves it slightly to the left but it is also to stop the front wheel from turning into the turn ie right. How the fuck can holding your bars at 40 degrees to the left feel REAL when going right if on a REAL bike you would hardly even notice it!!!

In a sim you CANT have all the reality due to lack of technology, or putting it correctly, lack of lots of money.

DD


Even after a bunch of thought on the matter, I just can't see why load cells wouldn't work for left-right rider movement (not steering). One on each side of the tank of a sit on system so when you are full hang off and a leg is hooked over the tank pushing a panel with a load cell, it would deploy the knee and get the rider out off the side of the bike, rather than letting the auto lean deal with it as I currently do with the desk top system I mess around with from time to time, also allowing for you to counter weight the bike out of a power slide or stay tucked into the bike at high speed cornering if you desire such a movement to improve upon a lap time that is being held back by the rider hanging way off causing instability. If I ever get around to digging up my spare frame and all the associated bits and bobs for it to build a full sit on system I may attempt it just to see how it work, worst that happens is I just tick the auto lean box again and give up.  ;)

RC45

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 01:59:45 PM
All is already in:
a) same direction steer at low speeds,
b) countersteer at high speeds,
c) low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

Are you suggesting that the GP Bikes game engine already has this control model with force feedback loop already coded in? If so that just adds to the awe of the GPB.

HornetMaX

Quote from: RC45 on October 16, 2016, 04:39:35 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 16, 2016, 01:59:45 PM
All is already in:
a) same direction steer at low speeds,
b) countersteer at high speeds,
c) low bars angle at high speed, "stiff" direction at high speed (that's not exactly correct, but I see what you mean).

Are you suggesting that the GP Bikes game engine already has this control model with force feedback loop already coded in? If so that just adds to the awe of the GPB.
Yes.

You can enable Direct Steer Angle, even on a joypad. Of course it won't work well on a joypad as you miss the force feedback.
If you enable it with a steering wheel you should already obtain something closer to the real deal. Notice however that it may turn out terribly difficult to setup properly and/or terribly difficult to use (not impossible, we had a player using a joypad with direct steer torque, probably even more difficult than direct steer angle).