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December 14, 2019, 12:31:26 pm

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Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......

Started by Hawk, February 14, 2019, 05:10:21 am

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Hawk

Personally I think Dorna should've implemented these rules back in the year 2000 to avoid the mess and astronomical expense that MotoGP is experiencing today and to keep motorcycle racing within a reasonable budget as well as most importantly making sure that it was the riders latent skills that controlled the bike at all times:

Machines used cannot:

  • Be constructed in any part from Titanium or Carbon-Fibres

  • Use uncoated ceramic parts

  • Use telemetry during a race except for timing purposes

  • Use any electronic components to control the engine, brakes, suspension or wheel rotations

  • Use supercharger or a turbocharger of any kind.



Just a little controversial.... What are your thoughts on this guys? ;) :)

poumpouny

Don't forget that the main reason constructor is into Moto GP is 1st for advertising and 2nd for testing technologies which will be applied to normal stock bike that will be sold to we, normal people so i don't think there is a point for they doing moto gp with your restriction. I think we just need to add more "Normal" but popular motorbike race, and why not vintage "non assisted" bike race where we will see the good old GP 500 for exemple .....

Napalm Nick

I consider MotoGP to be the bike equivalent of F1.
The aim being to encompass the latest technology and push forward with new technology. It's the experimental testbed of the biking world only restricted by some rules that keep things ' reasonable '.

As much as I want racing to be better in Motogp and F1 it will always be ruled by budgets and technological abilities which actually makes it interesting in its own right (if the viewer is engineer minded).

When I want to watch good racing on similar machinery I head for WSBK/BSB every time though. Saying that, the recent MotoGP racing has been good - a tribute to the rules balancing development/cost and viewing pleasure (close racing). Compared with the rules of F1 which made the gaps so huge the racing died in recent history.

But the rule makers have a difficult job effectively guessing what should be done and amending them endlessly as technological advances to find ways to exploit them.

I hear what you are saying with cost and rider aids. To us the cost seems high but nowadays in their world it's normal operating expense especially for R&D oriented projects. Rider aids may be an allowed rule because it's technology that can find its way to the road, especially if it makes biking safer (ah the ever quest to do things safer as common sense ebbs away).

For one of your points, Hawky, I might agree especially with the benefit of hindsight - in-race telemetry. Hmmm texts  ::) maybe just put a smartphone on the dash, Oh wait...

IMO all racing suffers when money becomes a major factor.  Which is why racing like the IOM and it's entourage of smaller Street races are the last gladiatorial bastion of rider skill versus machine and environment. The last attempt at commercialising the IOM was thrown out thank the heavens but it's just around the corner. Those back pockets are twitching.

Consider ourselves lucky to have been witness to the legendary eras of motorcycling and pity our sons and daughters.  :D
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

Hawk

I do actually agree with what both of you have said there above, and I do realise that what MotoGP is today is what it is.....

F1 Nick - I agree with what you said too, but at least F1 are yet again this year making a step backwards technologically in order to bring back a more entertaining event..... In a way, MotoGP should've already learned the lesson from F1 in letting them see what happens to the heart and soul of a sport and it's reputation when technology is given a more or less free rein to integrate new technologies and ideas to the level where the actual human competitors in the sport play a lesser and lesser role in the outcome of events and championships compared to their hey-day eras.
Personally I think F1 needs to continue stepping back each year till they are back to the era of the mid to late 60's "Jim Clark" era to bring back real racing skills and entertainment for the fans.... Many fans I hear are coming to the same conclusion too, but like MotoGP, it'll be a hard nut to crack with the elite establishments of motor sports no doubt resisting these attempts at every stage, even threatening(like Ferrari already have done) to leave the sport altogether..... Personally I'd call their bluff. Lol!  ;D

I have also heard on the grapevine that GP500 2 strokes might actually be coming back in their own category too, similar as to what poumpouny was saying, at some stage in the future. But I almost guarantee that they will put some kind of restrictions in it's creation so as to never have to fear that the category will revive itself into becoming again regarded as the pinnacle "Blue-Ribbon" event?
Will be great to see them back again..... Let's hope fans will vote with their feet and support the GP500's and buoycott the 4 stroke MotoGP category..... OH! How I would love to live to see that day!! "People-Power" LOL!! ;D ;D

I just wish that Dorna didn't feel they had to destroy the GP500 category in the first place in their determination to replace the established blue-ribbon category with 4 stroke machinery..... They declared war on the 2 stroke category the same way governments get the public to accept going to war against other countries - They first demonise what they wish to destroy so the public willingly accept the result of their actions.
What they should've done was to give the 4 strokes their own category from the start; in fact the 4 strokes did have their own category with the SB's; so we can only presume that to get the 4 strokes accepted as the actual blue-ribbon pinnacle category, they felt they had to destroy the 2 stroke era altogether? It's disgraceful when you think about all the political shenanigans that go on behind the scenes at the expense of the fans and the very heart and soul of a beautiful sport..... Just such a shame......

Totally agree Nick, indeed we should consider ourselves very lucky and privileged to have witnessed the "Legendary" eras of both motorcycling and F1..... That is those of us that are old enough to have witnessed them. LOL!  ;) ;D

Napalm Nick

If we were sat in a pub I could enjoy discussing this stuff at length hehe. Old codgers in the lounge bar getting wobbly. It's too much effort typing on a phone.

Commercialisation means decisions made by business men where results are not trophies but bonuses. If you can keep the money down you can keep the sport spirit as it will be run by enthusiasts of the actual sport.
Bernie Ecclestone - F1s saviour? I don't think so.

I agree with your sentiments but I feel young fans who never knew any different will accept it as it is, much like their grandkids will laugh at them when they hanker for the old petrol powered days and bikes that can't fly. ;D
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

Hawk

Quote from: Napalm Nick on February 14, 2019, 02:01:25 pm
If we were sat in a pub I could enjoy discussing this stuff at length hehe. Old codgers in the lounge bar getting wobbly. It's too much effort typing on a phone.

Commercialisation means decisions made by business men where results are not trophies but bonuses. If you can keep the money down you can keep the sport spirit as it will be run by enthusiasts of the actual sport.
Bernie Ecclestone - F1s saviour? I don't think so.

I agree with your sentiments but I feel young fans who never knew any different will accept it as it is, much like their grandkids will laugh at them when they hanker for the old petrol powered days and bikes that can't fly. ;D


Very true mate, couldn't agree more. Lol! ;) ;D

connorhall70

I think they're good rules. should be implemented. prob wont though.

I've always been against electronic aid and always will be. yes it is a skill to be able to use these aids efficiently, but still i think people would be more attracted to it if the aids were taken away. its entertainment at the end of the day, and watching people open a throttle 100% using tc to save them is not entertaining for me and many others.

its sad to see the popularity of bike racing decrease in pretty much every way, the crowds are getting smaller, at least in the UK they are. I really put this down to the technologies on the bikes. you'd think if they have such amazing technologies they'd be able to race in the rain...  ::)

putting superchargers or turbos on bikes is so stupid i really hope they never allow that.

MotoGP is following the footsteps of F1, yes technological advances are a good thing, but it gets to a point where its gone TOO far, and ends up with shit racing. motogp heading that way literally following f1s footsteps. shame they cant learn from others mistakes.
GanjaGod

Myst1cPrun3

July 06, 2019, 02:45:13 pm #7 Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 04:28:18 pm by Myst1cPrun3
I would like to put forward my 2 cents, and while I may not be yknow, an FIM govorning body, I'd like to think I understand why some of the decisions that are made...

I see a load of f1 and motogp comparisons, and I do agree that these are 'prototype' classes should be at the head of technological developments.

That's where the similarities end for me. F1 relies on a crap tonne of downforce, and that kills the racing, as the aake from the cars means the car behind has no air hitting the wings and no downforce, thus gaps get bigger and racing gets worse.
They've recently started reducing the downforce levels, but that makes the cars slower, and therefore they arent technically pushing the limits. Its a very fine balancing act, tech vs racing.

MotoGP finds itself in a similar area, however the bikes rely on tyres, frame and suspension as opposed to aero to corner. This is the reason why motogp bikes, (and others) can run wings without having a major effect on the racing.

As for removing the electronics that's not the way to go either, as again, motogp is the forefront of 'tomorrow's technology'.
I understand why you'd want them to do that, but that's really not the goal of MotoGP.
(as a matter of fact if I remember rightly I read tc was trialled in the late 90s on a 500 but never really made it due to the tech not being there yet, don't quote me on that as I'm not really sure however )

I do remember however a Honda higher up accidentally leaked that their bike was producing around the mid 300s in terms of bhp, and that was bike in 2010, so God knows what it is now, but removing the electronics would make them quite literally unusable, never mind difficult to ride. They would be miles slower too.

Being one of those younguns who never experienced what yester year was like, (the earliest memory I have of MotoGP was watching gibernaus cartwheeling ducati on the TV at Catalunya, I was 7-8ish at the time) I do accept it as it is, but I by no means think its boring.

I don't mean to be a little insulting, but while I love the 500 2 strokes, and the mid 90s superbike, I do think you're all looking through 'Rose tinted spectacles' so to speak.

Even when I watch some of the old 'greatest ever' classic 500cc GP races on YouTube, I can't help but feel like that the races aren't as close, or even as exciting to watch, as these races seem very close to a precession, with at most 3-4 riders battling, and the field spread out over 1-2 laps.

The 250 races were much more entertaining if you ask me.

As for 500s returning, from what I can gather the reason they went away, was  emissions. If the 'injected' 2 stroke can be perfected their return could be possible, although maybe not in 500ccs of capacity.
(the suter mmx 500 for instance is actually a 576cc machine)

As for Bike racing decline In the uk, I definitely wouldn't put it down towards the technology.
I fact I'd put it down to the 'snowflake' generation being more interested in social media and being drunk on a Friday night than tinkering in a garage ready for a race meeting.

I remember seeing an article that called for racing to be banned altogether as it takes valuable medical resources (ambulances etc) from those who actually need them.

And the UK weather doesn't usually lend itself to being outside watching bike racing. Although today's a different story as its lovely here at 3Sisters, with full grids as well 😁







Onto topic, rules dorna should have implemented years ago.

For me,
The weight limits should not change based off cylinder numbers.
This would mean running 1000cc v5s like the old Honda would be possible, or even a 1200 twin.

Other than that, I actually can't think of any more aside from possibly making the red-bull rookies use a current moto3 spec machine, and making moto3 use something like a 640 single/twin.
(potentially supercorsas/less sticky control tyre as well as they're already faster through some turns than motogp machines)


Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmits sad to see the popularity of bike racing decrease in pretty much every way, the crowds are getting smaller, at least in the UK they are. I really put this down to the technologies on the bikes. you'd think if they have such amazing technologies they'd be able to race in the rain...  ::)


The electronic tech doesn't hinder the wet races, rather the tyres. The bikes go so fast these days, that they seem to skip over the water rather than displace it, which is hugely dangerous. Combined with the minute contact patch that bikes have, and they pretty much lose all control. (Thinking back to Silverstone and Rabats crash chaos.)
Should the bike actually manage to move the water, that water has to have somewhere to go and that means there is a Crap Load of Spray, and visibility becomes almost 0, and at 200mph that also becomes incredibly dangerous. (Why Rain lights have been introduced, although they don't help see the track)


Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmputting superchargers or turbos on bikes is so stupid i really hope they never allow that.



Agreed.



Quote from: connorhall70 on February 14, 2019, 03:59:16 pmMotoGP is following the footsteps of F1, yes technological advances are a good thing, but it gets to a point where its gone TOO far, and ends up with shit racing. motogp heading that way literally following f1s footsteps. shame they cant learn from others mistakes.


The only thing that would harm the Racing in MotoGP is when the big teams have bikes that are infinitely better than the smaller teams, due to their massive budgets.
We had this issue back in around '08-'13 when the CRT machines were introduced.
At the minute the racing in MotoGP (Behind Marquez that is, as he's currently on a run to rival Rossi's Prime, hes somat else ATM), is better than it has been in a long while, good close multi-bike battles, from start to finish generally.

As for going too far, like I said above about the mechanical vs aero grip it will never be in a situation like F1, and the only point at which it would be is if bikes started using aero to corner, and that's impossible due to the fact they lean. When its faster for bikes to stop leaning then we'll have reason to worry about being in F1's situation.

















 

Myst1cPrun3

Marquez hand after the sachsenring...
But remember folks, modern motogp electronics make them easy to ride...


Hawk

Yeah, right. Lol..... So what's the real story behind that pic? ;D

Looks to me like he's either crashed the bike and got tarmac rash on his hands, or been racing with a previous hand injury that's been bleeding inside his glove during the race. :P  ;D

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on July 10, 2019, 08:05:42 amYeah, right. Lol..... So what's the real story behind that pic? ;D

Looks to me like he's either crashed the bike and got tarmac rash on his hands, or been racing with a previous hand injury that's been bleeding inside his glove during the race. :P  ;D

Nope that was taken after the sachsenring race. Was fine before. He even said it was. I guess that's why some riders wear bandages under their gloves.


Hawk

Then what the hell was he doing with his hand during the race if it wasn't already injured from a previous incident? If that happens to him after racing in each GP then he'd be fucked after 3-4 races. There's got to be more to this story than you've picked up on there mate, it just doesn't make sense to injure just one hand like that from just racing. I heard that he crashed his bike in practice before the race? Got to be some thing he picked up from that I'd say? Lol. ;)

Myst1cPrun3

Sachsenring is a very demanding track, as its all braking, acceleration, and turns. Pretty much 0 point where there's no pressure on the hand.

Not to mention Its his left hand, which would take a beating through all the left handers.

I should imagine the other one would be fairly similar, though not as bad, due to the forces being on the other side etc.

And I should imagine that if he did crash (idk I didn't watch it as I'm too poor for bt sport and my 'streams' weren't online) that the crash would have something to do with it.

But it still goes to show, that even with all the electronic interventions, Grand Prix bikes are still not a walk in the park.

To be honest I should imagine they're as difficult as the old 500cc machines, just in different areas.

If I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂

Hawk

I just think that if riders were getting injured like that just by riding in a race then something would be done about it pretty quickly. Lol

Also, if the bikes were that hard to ride that they took the skin-off your hands during a race then isn't it very dubious and strange that only Marc is injured like that and yet no other rider has ever pointed out the same issue? It all just doesn't make any sense mate without it being caused by a previous and race aggravated injury. :o
I just suspect your presuming a little too much there and probably falling for the current trend of journalists that like to make a drama out of nothing..... I think we all know what these modern journalists are like these days. Lol! ;D

But indeed, the very fact that there would be so much forces on your hands, body and legs during a race would mean that if he was getting injured like that he wouldn't last long would he.

Hopefully it'll slow the arrogant git down! Hehe! ;D  ;D

On the other subject..... My debate about whether the modern MotoGP bikes are easier to ride than the old 500cc class is a debate purely around the difference of having rider aids that take away from a riders skill-set and allow lesser riders to compete closely with the best of the best(if they have the bike to do it of course), and I think that is an accepted fact that the 500cc class riders needed to use raw rider skills to ride fast whereas the modern MotoGP riders can rely greatly on the computer aided devices on their bikes to control traction and braking as well as suspension and engine braking..... That's something the 500cc class riders had to control through their own touch, feel and throttle-control while riding their bikes... Big difference indeed. Even Rossi said the old 500cc bikes where more enjoyable and exciting to ride than the modern MotoGP bikes....... Lets bring them back I say, if only as a separate class of world championships..... Personally I think Dorna wouldn't allow it cause a large majority of race fans would soon turn away from the modern MotoGP races in favour of watching the more exciting 500cc 2-stroke class. That is something Dorna and the big manufacturers will not allow to happen...... Too much money and politics in the sport nowadays.... You can't really call MotoGP a true sport anymore in comparison to what it used to be, in my somewhat controversial opinion of course. Lol!  ;)  ;D  ;D