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August 22, 2019, 04:42:57 am

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Rules Dorna should've implemented years ago......

Started by Hawk, February 14, 2019, 05:10:21 am

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Myst1cPrun3

Pretty much right on all counts there XD

For me the 500s were much more difficult to control and required more finesse and rider skill. (not to say current riders don't have any skill mind you, they're about 50 years a lap faster than I'll ever be lol)

I do however think that the current MotoGP bikes are as difficult to ride, but in a more, physical/concentration sense.

You need to have extremely small reaction times, and and incredibly strong upper body just to put up with the forces.

For me some people assume the electronics remove all the forces from riding, and it seems they don't even think about the fact the bikes actually have more forces exerted on the rider, as they can be more extreme in the handling/power fronts, and get away from it.

Back in 'ye olden days' (500s) from what I can gather, it was the tyres and the frame/geometry that limited a bikes pace, now a days it seems to be whether the rider can hold on long enough.

As for those injuries, I've seen several pics of blistered hands from GP riders, of the recent era.
Cal, (although it was probably gravel rash as hes a little bit of a crasher lol), marc (OBVS), I think I saw folger and olivera as well, and maybe  Quatararo, can't quite remember.

I do think it is a more common issue than iss made out, and you consistently see GP riders with boxing style bandages on, either preemptive or protective.

Heres petrucci with the bandages on, and my gods they're thick :o






Marquez in 2015, Phillip Island I believe the pic is from:


Hawk

I'll be interested to look into this further, but I still think in most cases it is riders protecting older injuries from being aggravated during the race.

But yeah, I agree that no doubt the modern MotoGP bikes probably have greater man-handling needs, simply cause they are faster and more powerful machines, and no doubt the current crop of riders could get used to riding without computer assisted aids, but at the same time the best skilled riders would stand out head and shoulders above the rest, whereas currently it's the rider aids that allow the lesser skilled riders to compete closely with those cream of the crop skilled riders.... It's just all a big fake sport now in comparison to what it was..... They really need to get back to basics in my opinion if the sport is going to survive..... Although the generation of fans that attend MotoGP races now probably haven't a clue what it used to be like in the 500cc era anymore, so they probably think all is okay as it is. Lol!  ;D

But yeah, I'll look into this supposed need to bandage hands and for what real reasons those that do it, do it.  ;)

Myst1cPrun3

I feel like motogp is at its best in a while.. Grids are getting larger, more teams are entering, racing is close, (for the most part).

Regardless of bikes I think it's in a good place atm. Certainly better than the 800cc era where where was about 16-18 riders on the grid and the racing was extremely spread out.

I should imagine the old 500s were better to see in person, for the atmosphere and smells etc, but the modern machines are better in TV is how I'd see it.

Myst1cPrun3

July 11, 2019, 11:57:59 am #18 Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 12:05:37 pm by Myst1cPrun3
As for the hand bandages, it tends to be rookies, who don't have the tougher skin on the hands yet, and riders who slide more.
(Marquez, epargaros etc)

On the topic of Marquez... He's something else this year. If he was in GP bikes I'd report him to piboso for hacking lol
I do think the fact physics don't seem to apply to him makes motogp a bit more of a spectacle now, but the racing is good enough behind that if he weren't there I dung think itd matter to much


Yamaha riders, rossi, (lorenzo as he's still smooth) tend to have baby hands though 😂 100% moisturise
 And the triumph moto2 machines are now faster than the 500s on lap times, going over 190mph..

And have you checked out the 'world gp legends' races. Granted lap records may not be broken, but the old 500s get thrashed still, and it is still a race. Even some of the old guys take part, (lawson schwantz, gardener, sarron etc)


HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 09:31:51 pmIf I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂

350 hp ?! You mean 250 right ?

Myst1cPrun3

July 12, 2019, 05:08:15 pm #20 Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 05:16:26 pm by Myst1cPrun3
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 12, 2019, 04:47:10 pm
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 10, 2019, 09:31:51 pmIf I had to hold on to a 350hp motorbike my arms would fuck off with the bike and I'd just be sat there like one of those older Tom and Jerry/roadrunner cartoons 😂

350 hp ?! You mean 250 right ?

NOPE 350.
I think it was Honda who let slip that the GP machines were producing in excess of 300bhp.
They said it in an interview and when the reporter jumped on it they smiled sheepishly and said no comment.

Stoner also said he'd consider a GP comeback if the bikes went BACK to about 300bhp with little/less/no electronic aids

The 2003 Honda rossi was on had around 200 horsepower I think, and they've gained an extra 10cc, (not much I know but still) and technology has improved no end, so in a world where ducatis Wsbk produces 220+bhp, I highly suspect it is around the 300bhp mark, as to me there is no way a Grand Prix machine capable of 220mph only has around 25 more bhp than a wsbk

Edit: the CRT machines that were introduced to boost grid numbers had in excess of 250bhp, and they were WAY down on power compared to the bigger 'factory' machines

Myst1cPrun3

July 12, 2019, 05:14:32 pm #21 Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 05:19:15 pm by Myst1cPrun3
I'm not gonna lie, 350 is where I expect it to be nowadays, 250+ is the value that is 'given' by the teams, and 300 was the 'leaked' power value by either honda/ducati can't remember which.

350 may be way off, either High or low, but I'd suspect its deffo closer to 300-350 than 250, and if its not, I'll eat my shorts

(i won't actually eat them but I'd be extremely surprised)

Myst1cPrun3

July 12, 2019, 05:26:29 pm #22 Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 05:29:05 pm by Myst1cPrun3






There's some data for you, showing that petrux said his bike was at 280 bhp back in 2016/2017.
According to the acceleration graphs that was also lowballing a bit but seems accurate for the most part

I did embellish the power figure a little bit it seems,(I swear dramatic effect had nothing to do with it ;) ) but still, way over 250 :o

Hawk

Too much power by far..... I mean what's the point if you can't use it? As they say, if it wasn't for the electronics controlling the application of that power then they couldn't use it, and if they cannot control the power without the electronics applying that power then it's not a true representation of a riders skill and control of the bike and therefore surely cannot be classified as a true sport anymore..... I rest my case. :P ;D

Myst1cPrun3

Stoner did. He consistently ran without tc.

And I think you're missing the point of MotoGP these days.

Gone are the days where motogp was about riders patience and skill with the throttle, and here are the days we're technology rules the roost, and engineers run the bikes.

Getting the most out of technology is the second p point of MotoGP, the first is simple:

Be the fastest at all costs.

Hence, why tech is involved and necessary.

If there is going to be a class for no aids/reduced electronics it has to be separated from the MotoGP class imo.

BSB spec/style bikes on a global scale.

And saying the riders of today lack skill because of the electronics is perhaps not true as well. I mean, look at people like, Scott redding, Hector barbera, xavi fores etc, all former world championship riders, (and average ones at that if there's such a thing as an average wc rider) all relied on electronics for most of their racing careers, and all are ripping the BSB championship apart, consistently on the podium, and in Scott's case, at the top of the championship.
And it's not like the BSB championship is a walk in the park either, as that's a really tough championship to be in

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 06:10:00 pmIf there is going to be a class for no aids/reduced electronics it has to be separated from the MotoGP class imo.



I believe this is what MotoE should have been. Moto Classic or something similar

HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 12, 2019, 05:26:29 pmThere's some data for you, showing that petrux said his bike was at 280 bhp back in 2016/2017.
According to the acceleration graphs that was also lowballing a bit but seems accurate for the most part

I did embellish the power figure a little bit it seems,(I swear dramatic effect had nothing to do with it ;) ) but still, way over 250 :o
And way under 350, for sure. With constant rules, you don't gain 20hp in 1 year.
I wouldn't even know if I'd bet on 300 at the moment. So 350 ... well ... I'd say no.

Myst1cPrun3

I mean stoner said that his bike was producing over 300 brake, it really depends on who you ask.

I just made a rough guess, although by 2025 it wouldn't surprise me if they're close to 350 bhp, assuming there aren't any rule changes.

Either way its enough to hurl you forward at a ridiculous rate of knots :o

Hawk

Rossi and Stoner in my mind are the two last superbly talented riders, the rest still have to prove themselves to be as skilled as they appear to be today.

As for Stoner always riding without TC or any other electronic aids? Where did you get that info from? ;D

Stoner is the only rider that you can see should've and probably would've rather have been born 10-20 years earlier for the sport, and I'm sure he would've carried on riding into his 30's.

I didn't say that the riders lack the skill, just that they can't demonstrate their real skills cause of the modern bikes they ride today, so one cannot even begin to judge exactly how true their real racing and bike handling skills really are.... That's all I'm saying.

What you said about, and I quote:

"Gone are the days where motogp was about riders patience and skill with the throttle, and here are the days we're technology rules the roost, and engineers run the bikes.

Getting the most out of technology is the second p point of MotoGP, the first is simple:

Be the fastest at all costs.

Hence, why tech is involved and necessary
."

This statement describes perfectly the destructive attitude of so many people today who are willing to ruin a true sport at any costs to win. That's not sportsmanship and certainly not a sporting attitude..... and above all it just leads to what amounts to cheating within a sport and fake results...... If that's what people truly desire these days then there is something mentally wrong with them. Lol! ???
It's the same cheating syndrome when people hack games to make sure they win at all costs and then brag about being the best, when in actual fact they are nothing but cheats and losers.

We should take the sport back to it's basics of the true marriage of man and machine with no electronic aids at all.... The sport would be so much more exciting to watch knowing that what your seeing is true rider skills on show well in tune with his racing bike. ;D  8)

Myst1cPrun3

July 13, 2019, 12:49:08 pm #29 Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:56:12 pm by Myst1cPrun3
https://motomatters.com/news/2010/10/28/settling_an_argument_casey_stoner_talks_.html

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/167194/1/stoner-i-went-back-to-two-year-old-electronics

Correction on my part: He ran with as little as possible, as the teams wouldn't let him get rid of them XD

He also says if there was no electronics Rossi would be winning again, so hes clearly lost it bless him.

As for what I said, I still stand by it. That's what the sport is today, and not necessarily my opinion BTW. Whether you agree with it or not, is a different story.


My opinion:

Using electronics, and the ability to successfully interpret data and make physical changes based off seemingly meaningless squiggles, has always interested me, and will continue to do so, which is why I am a fan of SOME electronics.

At the minute, I feel MotoGP is at a peak in terms of race quality, close racing, lap records going out the window most weekends, top speeds for each track being broken pretty much every year, lean angle records being smashed over and over again (Marquez hit 65 degrees at the Sachsenring, and it wasn't a save).

I do however think electronics are part of that, as due to the way they work, and the fact they're a control electronics package, (Magneti Marelli), everyone is fast at the same places, and all the lap times are close, which again is a good thing as a spectator, and spectacular to watch.

I also think that the electronics, while necessary to go fast, have gone a little too far with their interference. That's not to say we should get rid of it all together, (Even Rainey Ran with electronically adjustable fuel mapping to the end of his career, and I think honda experimented with TC in the late 90's but the processing power wasn't there yet or something, dont quote me on the last one though) so its not like they're a new invention, or even a 4 stroke motogp era invention, as your beloved 2strokers had them. (Schwantz ran a quickshifter for 94-95 as well  I believe, just a modified sidestand switch for ignition lol)

I think the saying 2 steps back to make one step forward is not applicable here. I feel that it should be more a step to the side. Keeping whats already there, as it is clearly working, with the records I mentioned above, and the record crowds as well, but the step to the side being made, so that development is focused somewhere else. A solution I've thought of would be to take these MM Electronics, and go a step further with how controlled they are, and make the rider aids, such as the TC, AW, etc controlled also. IE Everyone has to use the same values, or maybe give them 3 options that are the same for all the riders.These values again, may be less than whats already on at the minute.

That would be up to the riders meetings, Dorna and Magneti Marelli.

EG: Traction control settings could be set to have 3 (or 4 if you count off as one) settings.

0:  0% interference
1: 10% interference
2: 25% interference
3: 35% interference

Could make the development focus somewhere else rather than getting the most of the electronics, (Look at Yamahas/Rossis issues), while still keeping the bikes quick and close, as well as making the rider have more of an input hopefully.

Quote from: Hawk on July 13, 2019, 10:26:20 amThis statement describes perfectly the destructive attitude of so many people today who are willing to ruin a true sport at any costs to win. That's not sportsmanship and certainly not a sporting attitude..... and above all it just leads to what amounts to cheating within a sport and fake results...... If that's what people truly desire these days then there is something mentally wrong with them. Lol! ???
It's the same cheating syndrome when people hack games to make sure they win at all costs and then brag about being the best, when in actual fact they are nothing but cheats and losers.



I  disagree that its ruining the 'sport', its just changing it, and at the minute, its much better than it used to be.
I also disagree that someone wanting desperately to win have something mentally wrong with them, as after all, that's why people race is it not? To win? If you don't want to win, then you no longer want to race. Its just how far you're willing to go to win that determines whether you display sportsmanship or not.

As for sportsmanship, that is dead for the most part. And for me it died with Lance Armstrong. (Yes IK wrong type of bike, and everyone was supposedly doing it but the principles apply.)
The main thing that determines how far someone will go to win, whether its Performance Enhancing Drugs, which affects all sports,
(Hell Professional Counter Strike Video Gamers were on Aderall FGS, (Interestingly alcohol is considered a Performance Enhancing Drug in shooting as it slows the heart and regulates the breathing meaning a more accurate shot. Don't ask why I know that as I don't know myself lol)) or 'interpreting the rules differently' to gain an advantage, where that classes as cheating is debatable.

For me cheating is where you feel the need to hide what you're doing to gain an advantage from the organisers/scrutineers, then its cheating. Like in NASCAR where in ye olden days teams used to drop cig butts into the cylinder, to reduce the capacity for Scrutineering, yet when the engine started it burned the cig away and had a bigger engine, or when toyota used a moving restrictor in their rally car. That's cheating.
So was my Dad who ran a re-bored 640cc honda CBR '600'f, which produced way more power than it should. (In his defence though he did buy it like that, and only found out when he rebuilt the engine after his first season on it LOL, he said it was quickest bike there. I was like NO shit sherlock)

Hacking in a competitive game for me is a little pointless, and doesn't get you anywhere, (I can speak from experience as 15 year old me has a VAC Ban LOL) although I do believe it has its place in gaming.
Hackvhack games are quite fun in a weird way,  and things like the FOV changers in the MOTOGP and Ride Games are also hacks.

Bragging about being the best when you hack however is wrong and I despise that.








Quote from: Hawk on July 13, 2019, 10:26:20 amWe should take the sport back to it's basics of the true marriage of man and machine with no electronic aids at all.... The sport would be so much more exciting to watch knowing that what your seeing is true rider skills on show well in tune with his racing bike. ;D  8)


Depends what you class as exciting. I have watched many 500cc races on youtube, and many races without electronics, and I actually was bored, as yes, the racers were on a knife edge, but they were also around 5 seconds apart. These were also races that were deemed 'classics' by MotoGP, and were deemed historical by everyone in the know.

As for taking the sport back, that would compound the problem. It needs to be constanly moving forward, or as i said above, at least sideways. If you want a race class like that then it has to NOT be MotoGP.
Grand Prix racing has always been the 'pinnacle of motorcycling technology', and it still is. Its just how that tech is used in a bike that's changed, and thus, I actually believe that when you say 'back to basics of man and machine' that you're wrong, as that's never been Grand Prix racing despite what you'd think. Its just how the tech is used, and how people go quicker. It used to be the rider went quicker, hence where the 'fusion of man and machine'  thingy came from, but its always been about the tech. ALWAYS. Its just playing a bigger role now.


That brings me onto my point, whats exciting, is purely personal opinion. For me, MotoGP is way more exciting now than it used to be, as the racing is really close for the most part. Whether its artificial, or why its close is irrelevant. Its good to watch, as these days they're constantly overtaking, every lap, every turn pretty much, and for me that's more exciting than knowing someone 'could' have a moment if they're a little impatient.

Which one is better to ride is a different topic entirely.