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F1 New Engine Format: Considering 2T?

Started by Myst1cPrun3, January 13, 2020, 09:56:00 PM

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Manu

So to be fair all riders should ride the same bike. Otherwise, applying your rationing we face a scam. In motogp the best rider does not win, the best machine-rider combination wins. Therefore it does not compete on equal terms. On paper all the bikes meet the requirements but in practice those who can spend more money are those who have a chance to win. So we are no longer talking about a sport where the human faces another on equal terms to demonstrate his skills. No matter how skilled you are since without a competitive mount you can never win.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

Hawk

January 15, 2020, 03:21:41 PM #16 Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 03:37:05 PM by Hawk
Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 02:33:08 PMSo to be fair all riders should ride the same bike. Otherwise, applying your rationing we face a scam. In motogp the best rider does not win, the best machine-rider combination wins. Therefore it does not compete on equal terms. On paper all the bikes meet the requirements but in practice those who can spend more money are those who have a chance to win. So we are no longer talking about a sport where the human faces another on equal terms to demonstrate his skills. No matter how skilled you are since without a competitive mount you can never win.

Now your talking about the manufacturers place in a Motorsport. Their aim is to produce the best machinery they can within the rules of a sport to win a manufactures championship. To do that they will obviously try and obtain the services of the riders they feel are best skilled to ride their bikes.

Manufacturers products are like competitors in that some manufacturers can produce better products than others just as there are competitors who are better skilled than others, that's the manufacturers competition between each other in a sport, something they compete for as a symbol of prestige and that goes towards greater sales of their products to the public, but both manufacturers and competitors have to adhere to the rules of the sport, the soul of sport and not to bring the sport into disrepute.

Why on earth you've come up with this idea that all riders should ride the same bike for I don't know? Unless your just trying to be facetious on the subject?
There is a manufacturers championship and a riders championship. Each manufacturer team have their own skills and abilities just as individual riders have their own unique skills and abilities, so why suggest that it would be fair for all to ride the same bike when manufacturers are competing to win their side of the championship too? Are you CRAZY? Hehe!  ;D  ;)

And no you wouldn't be facing a scam at all.... Of course the best rider manufacturer combination during any season is very likely to win the championship, what else would you expect? But it's also the case that the best bike with a bad rider won't win the championship too. But that's true whether we have electronic aids or not so what point are you trying to make Manu?
We all hope that several manufactures can produce more or less equally competitive bikes but generally their is always one manufacture that has produced a bike that is slightly better balanced or handles slightly better which carries through to better tyre performances and wear on that bike, etc, etc... and so in the event they do win the championship then they deserve to do so cause they've done the best job, manufacturer and rider together... That is not a scam at all, that's great team-work..... So again, what point are you trying to make with such a statement Manu?

PS: I hope your not suggesting that if manufacturers are given a maximum BHP power limit that they might as well be riding the same bikes? Noooo... I can't believe you of all people, someone who produces bike mods and knows what a difference balance and handling can make to the performance of a bike could even think of suggesting something like that mate. Are you Manu? :o  ;)

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Highsides: last year MotoGP had more than bsb. BSB has no TC/aids, MotoGP does, and this highside pattern has been seen for the past few years.

So I'd say that's not really a valid point.

As for MotoE, I don't know if you've seen it, but the racing is superb despite the lack of gears. Close, and often rough. High stakes too as a bike of that weight hitting s Leg is gonna hurt.


Bike setup is a vital part of MotoGP now, and to be fair, I am not a big fan of how 'finnicky' they are. You're either on the perfect setup, or you're off the pace significantly.
(Or your Marc Marquez but he's a different entity all on his own)

That being said, I appreciate the talent the engineers and riders have for diagnosis and applying squiggly lines to actual mechanical parts.
I find that awe inspiring to be honest.


As for safety elements, I agree with Manu. They are aids, to help the rider not to keep him (or her) safe. They make the bikes faster, and push technology to the edge. As that is what grand Prix racing is about. PUSHING TECHNOLOGY. Pushing the rider to new heights mentally and physically, by holding on to something seemingly breaking the laws of physics, and mentally by everything going by quicker than ever.

As mentioned with BSB and highsides, you could actually argue that TC and AW is making the sport More unsafe due to the riders relying on them. However this argument is short-lived, because, as Manu, rightly said, GP bikes would be unusable without them. And that's even more unsafe.

I believe that to keep the essence of GP Racing, which is pushing technology,(as all top level Motorsport has always  been) then these aids are essential, and if you have to limit power to remove this, you're losing the very foundation of Motorsport.

As for Hawks point of the 'whole point of sport' the actual equipment seems to be neglected in all your arguments.. it's not all about the person you know. You don't see a high jumper in jeans and flip flops? No they have the very best TECHNOLOGY available to them, to AID them in jumping as Efficiently and as high as possible.

There is no difference here with GP racing, except the fact the technology available is different.

Myst1cPrun3

However once again, can we get back to the topic of 2 Stoke technology and it's feasibility in today's age?

 Not electronics.

While I respect this is a forum and I respect people's right to post in it, and debate, I ask you have the respect to keep to the original topic.

Or I will just lock it

Myst1cPrun3

https://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=6908.0

Use this thread for any other gp chat that isn't related to this topic of 2 strokes feasibility in formula one.

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:41:09 PMHowever once again, can we get back to the topic of 2 Stoke technology and it's feasibility in today's age?

 Not electronics.

While I respect this is a forum and I respect people's right to post in it, and debate, I ask you have the respect to keep to the original topic.

Or I will just lock it


Oh C'mon matey.... Where's your sense of freedom of speech, your sense of humour.... Lighten-up will you, a bit of controversy and naturally evolving debate keeps the forum a bit more active and lively don't you think!? Hehe! ;D  ;D  ;)  8)

Let the debate evolve.... Where's your sense of FUN!!? Lol! ;D  ;)

Myst1cPrun3

In the right areas feel free to speak what you want, but on these forums, and others, proper etiquette and manners apply ;) .

As someone who loves the older times you should know manners cost nothing :D

But as usual, I love debates with you Hawky, always entertaining and fun

Manu

I don't try to be facetious. It is difficult to express something in a different language. Maybe you didn't understand what I said.

However, I was not talking about my opinion but what you are trying to say.

You say it stops being a sport because riders can't measure their real abilities. In that case the only way to measure real skills is with the same machine.

Anyway I will not talk more about this subject since it is not going anywhere. For me it is no longer a debate when a person is unable to accept the opinion of another and only wants to impose their own.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

Hawk

Quote from: Manu on January 15, 2020, 05:16:02 PMI don't try to be facetious. It is difficult to express something in a different language. Maybe you didn't understand what I said.

However, I was not talking about my opinion but what you are trying to say.

You say it stops being a sport because riders can't measure their real abilities. In that case the only way to measure real skills is with the same machine.

Anyway I will not talk more about this subject since it is not going anywhere. For me it is no longer a debate when a person is unable to accept the opinion of another and only wants to impose their own.

Yes. I forgot that English is not your first language, my apologies for any misunderstandings Manu. You know me mate, no harm or disrespect was intended.  ;)  8)

All I'm trying to say is for MotoGP to get back to being a true sport again, were it's a competition between riders natural ability married with bike and the manufacturers machinery design and team skills and not aided via electronic rider aids controlled via computers in real-time which takes away some of the natural skills a good or great rider possesses..... Putting them on the same bikes would cut out the manufacturers role as such in competing for the manufacturers championship, and including electronic rider aids cuts out the sporting spirit of riders pitting their own skills against one another, that's all I'm saying.  :)

The fact that we don't agree just points out the same problem that politicians have when debating and also the reason they rarely end up changing their minds or agreeing on political issues.... It's not about getting someone to accept your opinion and it's certainly not about trying to impose an opinion on someone else at all(that point of view could be seen from both sides of the debate). If we cannot agree then we'll just agree to disagree mate, nothing wrong with that.  ;D  8)

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 04:38:57 PMIn the right areas feel free to speak what you want, but on these forums, and others, proper etiquette and manners apply ;) .

As someone who loves the older times you should know manners cost nothing :D

But as usual, I love debates with you Hawky, always entertaining and fun

Lol! Likewise mate! ;D  8)  ;)

You'll find that I only get a little un-mannered(should we say) in equal measure(I try) if others are doing the same or being continually disrespectful.... I maybe a little blunt and flippant at times but never mean to disrespect or upset anyone, otherwise you'll just have to get used to me and put up with it if you regard those things as anything else. Lol! ;)  ;D  8)

In fact you couldn't wish for a nicer, self-opinionated, easier-going person than I to have a debate with! Lol!  ;D  ;D

Manu

Quote from: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 06:25:55 PMYes. I forgot that English is not your first language, my apologies for any misunderstandings Manu. You know me mate, no harm or disrespect was intended.  ;)  8)

All I'm trying to say is for MotoGP to get back to being a true sport again, were it's a competition between riders natural ability married with bike and the manufacturers machinery design and team skills and not aided via electronic rider aids controlled via computers in real-time which takes away some of the natural skills a good or great rider possesses..... Putting them on the same bikes would cut out the manufacturers role as such in competing for the manufacturers championship, and including electronic rider aids cuts out the sporting spirit of riders pitting their own skills against one another, that's all I'm saying.  :)

The fact that we don't agree just points out the same problem that politicians have when debating and also the reason they rarely end up changing their minds or agreeing on political issues.... It's not about getting someone to accept your opinion and it's certainly not about trying to impose an opinion on someone else at all(that point of view could be seen from both sides of the debate). If we cannot agree then we'll just agree to disagree mate, nothing wrong with that.  ;D  8)

No problem.

I do not pretend that you agree with me. Obviously everyone has their opinion. That is what it is about. But that does not mean that you are in a position of truth as I am not either. They are different views for the same thing.

I apologize for moving away from the original matter.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.