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Fully disabling 'Lean Help'

Started by Myst1cPrun3, May 26, 2019, 09:25:21 pm

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Myst1cPrun3

This is something that has become quite clear to me from when I started in GPB, in that 'disabling' lean help doesn't entirely turn it off.

When I un-check the box for lean help, I would like it to allow me to lean forever effectively, at any point.

This would improve braking no-end, as it would make lines slightly more realistic, and trail braking would require more skill.

At the minute, you can apply pretty much 100% braking force right to the apex, as the rider won't tip the bike further than the grip allows.

This means that braking is somewhat backwards in input, as on most bikes, it is possible to apply MORE braking force leant over than it is when travelling in a straight line, where the bike tends to stoppie.

As a result applying light brake initially and more as you get to the apex and turn in, is the way to go in GPB, but removing the lean cap, and thus making the actual person control how much braking and to control how far to lean at the same time would be much more realistic.

It would increase the amount of front end crashes, as I suspect it would take people a while to get used to how far to go, but overall I feel it would be a step in the right direction, as GBP is supposed to be a simulation, and real bikes don't have stabilisers upon turn in. Hell, even the HIGHLY unrealistic Milestone games allow a full range of lean regardless of throttle/brake inputs. (The results/consequences of doing this may not be realistic but the fact its not prevented by an unseen force is a bonus)

I would personally go as far as removing the max lean limit all together, and make it possible to completely lean off the edge of the tyre. I understand this is a more awkward thing to do, as people have different steering setups, but removing the initial brake/lean help is a MUST for me.

If I was making these changes I would add these max lean 'stabilisers' into the 'lean help' aids option, and potentially make them more strict, (can't lean as far when selected) to result in people who have it selected going slower, thus encouraging them to 'turn it off'

While I would like it to be globally fixed in the next Beta, at the minute I would settle for a line of code to override this in the 'rider.cfg. files, although this code would have to be made redundant if it was to be introduced fully later on, as people would just enable it in the code and go much quicker.

Pls listen PIB


Quote from: PiBoSo on February 11, 2019, 05:00:48 pmJust to get into Piboso's Alerts Inbox

Hawk

If you take the riding aids off, then IF the bike physics are correct then you should be able to wash the front end away if you apply the front brake too much. But then with modern bikes being mainly electronically controlled it may well be that they can apply full force on the front brakes without the front end washing away due to the ECU not allowing the front wheel to break grip while braking?
I'm not an aficionado on modern electronically controlled 4 stroke racing bikes, I can't stand them; I think they are an abomination to the sport, so I'm not sure if the electronics extend to controlling the front end traction-control or not? Maybe someone can enlighten me on that matter. :) 

Myst1cPrun3

May 26, 2019, 10:36:00 pm #2 Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 10:44:03 pm by Myst1cPrun3 Reason: --UPDATE--
Its definitely not electronics, as every bike does it, even those without any, such as the GP250's and GP500's. I also run with no aids, aside from the 'automatic tyre change option', as keep having to change your tyres manually isn't much help in an offline session.

Its definitely GPB physics related from my testing, although whether bike modders can disable it in their bikes is another story, but even Pibs M2 bike does this.

Its just like there's a block when turning in on the brakes, not quite preventing me from losing the front, as I can still crash, but definitely preventing me from leaning over fully, and making corner entry easier.

If I go beyond the maximum lean value, and then squeeze the front brake to slow down, even a little, I lose the front. Its when I'm approaching that value when the 'issue' arises.

As someone whose got more experience on GPB than a real world bike, even I can see that's not how it should work.

I'll try to make a video highlighting it as I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well XD

As for electronics controlling the front, from what research I've done, teh front is more controlled by ABS, which wouldn't prevent leaning over on the brakes. Most high end - modern superbike's (Panigale's, RSV4 Factories, S1000rr's etc) tend to run 'active suspension', where the ECU rapidly adjusts the Damping's to maintain optimum cornering stuff, (not sure what the term is on a bike, in a car its to corner level and flat, so I'm assuming its more stability and load on a bike), but again, this wouldn't prevent you from leaning on the brakes. Or at least that's how I interpret it, there are probably a load more intricacies into it but that's just how I've come to see it.

While the pic below is a 1:12 scale model, the plugs which are visible on the forks are the wires which go to the ECU for the adaptive controls:


teeds

MXBikes got lean with no limits via a "Lean Help" off option, works well when you get used to it and it's useful when you need extreme lean angles briefly. Pibs did say he tested this in GPB but thought it best not to include it based on results.

Myst1cPrun3

I don't get why you wouldn't include it, as at the minute the braking action is backwards, light braking initially to full braking at the apex...
Only reason I can think of is its covering some other physics issue, in which case that issue needs fixing instead of covering...

Vini

May 27, 2019, 10:52:51 am #5 Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:09:59 am by Vini
This was already requested somewhere else as an intermediate mode between Direct Steer and default.
Inputting absolute lean angle values (vs currently: relative) would only properly work with a steering wheel, even then I'm skeptical.
Certainly would be worth a try IMO.

I strongly disagree with the points you make about braking, though. You can definitely lock up the front and if you brake at the limit, the brake inputs will look very realistic (close to 100% initially and then trailing off). If your inputs are backwards, then you are not consistently at the balance point when the bike is upright.
Also, the way braking and lean input currently interact makes a lot of sense for me because in real life if you brake while in a corner, the bike will stand up by itself. This is exactly what happens at the moment in GP Bikes and the front brake is essential in that way to finetune your line into a corner.

Edit: Don't get this the wrong way but I think you should just work more on your trail braking and you'll see that it will get more realistic the closer you get to the limit. On your COTA lap for example it looks like you are never really loading the front into corners but instead roll into them with unnecessarily wide entries (first sector especially).

Myst1cPrun3

May 27, 2019, 11:41:57 am #6 Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:56:02 am by Myst1cPrun3 Reason: --UPDATE--
I never said it was impossible to lose the front under braking, in fact I said it was more than possible, and I've done it may times.

As for what you've said, Its not when I'm in the corner its approaching the corner, as I can consistently apply more brakes when turning in, than I can when braking in a straight line.

Take the session I just did on the 500 at Javi's Spa, going into the left right left at the end of the back straight, (The chicane after the Eau-Rouge section), I can only apply around 75%-80% of brake without the bike pitching over the handlebars, however as I begin to turn in, and hit that Max -Lean buffer, I can then apply 100% brake all the way to the Apex, without looping the bike, or missing the apex. (Letting off just before to pull back and setup for the next 2 turns)

Its not a question of skill, or trail braking/rider competency.
Whichever way you look at it those inputs are backwards compared to real life.

As for the bike standing up under brakes, I can understand that, but my point regarding that is sure the bike will want to stand up, but its not impossible to lean while on the brakes it'll just be a little more difficult, which is hard to achieve in a game, so maybe slowing down the direction changes, or making the rider weight more imp active of this for those of us who use that separate control, that bits up to Pib.

My point is, there isn't an invisible external entity/force PREVENTING someone from leaning a bike over under brakes, and as a result there shouldn't be in GP Bikes if its set on being a Sim.
There is however a force/external entity that makes it harder to lean, but not impossible.

PS: As for my braking competency levels, I do tend to use a more '250' smoother style, which is great for low powered bikes, like the GP250s, or the WSSP 300s, and I was actually about there in the WSSP 300 championship that seems to have stopped. (Which is typical that I was actually about there speed wise and the championship stops lol.)
I was loading up the front perhaps more than it looks in the video, and into the Hairpins it was backing in, May put the 'Inputs' Hud on from the MaxHUD as it would be interesting to see. But I know the hairpin onto the straight I was at 100% brake lever travel right up to the Apex, but could only manage around 90% on the approach. Its one of the reasons why I tend to turn in early, as I can apply more braking that way.

EDIT: I was also using 20mm brake lever travel if I remember correctly, and possibly some different discs, due to the lack of feel GPB gives through controllers, so perhaps the braking on my MotoGP vids isn't really representative.
I will say as well my personal braking has gotten worse since moving to VR, and its something I do need to work on. (Pibs M2, (NOT the 2019 M2) was a hugely good bike to learn this on, and I pretty much halved my braking distances across most bikes after practicing on that.)

Myst1cPrun3

May 27, 2019, 11:57:34 am #7 Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 12:40:11 pm by Myst1cPrun3
For me the fact that the Sim is preventing you from doing something bad is an Assist, so needs to be in the game as one, especially as you can do it (lean on the brakes) IRL. (Although as I've said, it may be harder)

At the end of the day however, rider skill, competency and every other external factor is irrelevant.

The simple facts are, it IS
Possible in GPB to consistently apply more braking force on turn in than it is when going in a straight line, (without crashing) regardless of speed, or anything else, including with all assists Off.
It is NOT possible to do this in real life (without crashing).

In GPB the 'sim' DOES prevent you from leaning over fully when on the brakes with all assists Off.
This does NOT happen in real life.

Whether these options are good practice, is irrelevant, as is who does them, their skill/speed and everyother factor.
As it's about what IS and ISNT possible, and whether it's 230mph, or 30mph, it doesn't matter, as it being POSSIBLE to  apply more brake leant over (without crashing) is just wrong

Vini

May 27, 2019, 04:46:08 pm #8 Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:02:09 pm by Vini
Your proposal for an alternative (non-Direct-Steer) steering mode with absolute lean angle input is valid but not any more valid than the current default steering. Both do not resemble real life motorcycle steering and both are a compromise between realism and usability.
Both have their own subjective advantages: The fact that you cannot fully turn in at max brake (which is realistic) and the ability of standing the bike up with the brake vs. full control over lean angle at any time.
Anyway, I think it would still be good to give us the option because it could work well with certain controllers.

But on top of that you seem to be indicating that there are fundamental physics issues with braking in GPB and this is not the case.
When using setups or bikes with less powerful brakes and when not riding at the bike's actual limit, it may appear like you described.
I can upload the brake inputs from my fastest laps and you'll see perfectly realistic, smooth inputs that peak when the bike is relatively upright and trail off to zero right at the apex with no transition visible from outside. In many instances you can see the rear wheel slightly hovering in the air or the front chattering, proving that the bike is consistently at max. deceleration. On the MotoGP bikes, I use 340HM carbon discs and 16mm leverage (100% gain) and there is only one place where I am ever at 100% brake and that is COTA turn 1 with the bike fully upright.
Yes, you can hold max. brake on some other bikes right until the apex but then you will never reach max. lean of the bike because the bike can't turn like that. Also, when leaning the bike up to a certain point you can actually brake marginally harder because the traction of the front is still good and the weight distribution and geometry is better, hence backing in the rear. But this is only works up to a certain lean angle, where continued brake intensity will begin hindering the bike's ability to turn, resulting in either running wide or locking the front.
Moreover, because it is easier to feel the limit of the front (vibration and visual feedback) than the exact balance point of the bike in GPB, one tends to get a lot closer to max. decel. when being at (slight) lean, making it seem like you can brake harder at more lean.

In your COTA MotoGP vid, I can see that you are not at the balance point when the bike is upright, then quickly back it in to feel the limit better and apply more brake (T1), keep that braking power relatively consistently but then drop it abruptly in order to get the bike to turn instead of trailing off smoothly all the way up to max. lean at the apex (T15/T11/T19), making you run wide.

Myst1cPrun3

May 27, 2019, 05:18:56 pm #9 Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:30:39 pm by Myst1cPrun3 Reason: --Grammar Changes--
This thread, although it has turned into a 'Braking thread', was made to be more of a leaning thread, as GPB imposes a leaning limit where there shouldn't be. Only reason I brought up braking is because the 2 can be related, and are more often than not. If there's an issue with the brakes then that really should be somewhere else.

But what the hell, I'll continue anyway.

Off Topicness:


When I ride in GP Bikes, on the default setup of most machines, applying full brake lever travel will loop the bike over the handlebars, or lock the front, so therefore  I have to reduce my braking Input. (realistic)

However as I begin to turn in, this goes out the window so to speak, and all of a sudden I CAN apply full front brake leverage, without flipping the bike, or even pulling a stoppie. This becomes an issue, as it allows the braking force to be increased as you near the apex and turn in further, without any issues.

AGAIN, whether its the fastest way to do it in GP Bikes, is up for debate, and AGAIN, it doesn't matter how fast you go or how competent you are at riding, that is quite simply impossible in the real world without crashing.

This in itself isn't too big of an issue. Its when its 'mixed' with the original topic of this thread, and that's the invisible 'Maximum Lean Assist' that GPB forces us to use.

It IS possible to fully lean the bike over when on the brakes in the real world. You WILL Crash, and it may be harder and a little more difficult, due to forces etc, but it is possible however, in GPB it prevents you from 'over-leaning' completely.

From the testing I did the only explanation I can come up with is that GPB calculates crashes with the amount of lean applied, hence the 'Max Lean Assist', rather than a combination of brakes and lean. I feel that sorting this would also sort out a lot of the 'Un-explainable off throttle front enders' that people have been having with more frequency since the release of B15.
Could be way off with the last para but that's just how it seems



Back to topic: 


This isn't just evident on the brakes, (That was the easiest one to use as an example, but I feel using it has got the entire thread of this topic lost in translation), it is evident when simply going around a turn, the rider will only lean so far, and its impossible to lean further.

THAT is what I'd like to see changed, removing the Maximum Possible Lean, and making it user controlled, or at least part of the 'Lean Assist' option.
As for everyone having different steering inputs, I completely understand that, hence why it should have its own option like you said, however there are several games that don't have a 'Max Lean Value' that utilise game-pads (hence making this a viable 'Default' steering option.)

The one that springs immediately to mind is the 'Suzuki TT Superbike' Game series by Jester on the PS2.
You could lean all the way over and fall off the inside of the tyre if you weren't careful.
This is because it used rider weight to steer the bikes, rather than just steering the bikes, similar to what GPB is trying to do.
So you'd move the joystick fully to whichever way you want to go, and then release it a little bit and hold it there, making minor corrections, to keep it at a constant lean angle, rather than just ramming the stick over fully and relying on the game engine to do the calculations and not crash you.

The reason I included Braking in the original post, as it would make trail braking a little more difficult, as you wouldn't be able to just ram the stick over, and be relatively safe, (Yes I know you can still crash) like you can now, and would do a decent job of covering the weird braking inputs that are possible, but those are for a different thread at a different time.

In other words, it would make it a little more about skill and judgement rather than invisible assists that aren't able to be turned off in the menus.

(Riding in the wet is another example of this 'Max Lean Assist', as it prevents me from going all the way over. (Yes, again, I know you WOULDN'T in the real world, but its not that you COULDN'T in the real world. (You'd crash at a certain point mind you, but GPB prevents this. Its only at camber changes, that result in the Max value becoming less than what your already at, that you crash.) The MG hairpin on Victoria is a good example of camber changes impacting the 'max lean value', and causing a crash, as you can lean fully on the approach, knee down etc, but the minute you hit the apex and it flattens out, the 'Max Lean Value' that would cause a crash is reduced to less than what was achieved on approach, so the front washes out.
The fact braking affects the 'Max Lean Value' is what I was trying to get at, the ability to use this to apply more brake than you could in a straight line is a side effect that could be changed with the removal of the 'Max Lean Value')



Vini

Use a more aggressive brake setup and you will see that your observation will not hold true.
Here is an example that shows that adding lean angle will not give you more braking power. You can clearly see that I had to reduce front brake in order to lean further without crashing.

But as I said earlier, I agree that we should be able to chose between relative (current default) and absolute lean angle input as an alternative.

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Vini on May 27, 2019, 07:35:39 pmUse a more aggressive brake setup and you will see that your observation will not hold true.
Here is an example that shows that adding lean angle will not give you more braking power. You can clearly see that I had to reduce front brake in order to lean further without crashing.

But as I said earlier, I agree that we should be able to chose between relative (current default) and absolute lean angle input as an alternative.

For me its more of an assist, that can be the start of some potentially bad habits, but an option in the menus would please most people, as based off the rest of the codes its just a 0 or a 1 so:

If Box Absolute Lean Assist checked - set Max lean assist = 0;

Obs that needs the syntax but it shouldn't be such an issue, providing its an editable variable in the first place, which, it exists in the sim so I don't see why it shouldn't be.

TBF, I think most of GPB's issues could be solved with simply more input options. Pib has done a good job at allowing pretty much anything to be used as an input device, with very good results, so the hardware side is nailed. Its more the software side that needs a little work to keep up with all the differences, as when there's such a variation in input devices, there need to be sufficient in-game options to accommodate these.
I've said before its something the Project Cars Series have done really well, you can really fine tune those to your hearts content for literally any input device.


Myst1cPrun3