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August 22, 2019, 04:41:53 am

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Cleaning Up: Improved Braking Inputs

Started by Myst1cPrun3, May 28, 2019, 10:36:35 pm

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Myst1cPrun3

May 28, 2019, 10:36:35 pm Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 10:40:16 pm by Myst1cPrun3
Following my other thread about the Max-Lean inputs getting a bit clogged up with braking for one reason or another, I decided to make a separate thread for those issues and do a little bit of housekeeping:

Quote from: Vini on May 27, 2019, 10:52:51 amI strongly disagree with the points you make about braking, though. You can definitely lock up the front and if you brake at the limit, the brake inputs will look very realistic (close to 100% initially and then trailing off). If your inputs are backwards, then you are not consistently at the balance point when the bike is upright.
Also, the way braking and lean input currently interact makes a lot of sense for me because in real life if you brake while in a corner, the bike will stand up by itself. This is exactly what happens at the moment in GP Bikes and the front brake is essential in that way to finetune your line into a corner.

Edit: Don't get this the wrong way but I think you should just work more on your trail braking and you'll see that it will get more realistic the closer you get to the limit. On your COTA lap for example it looks like you are never really loading the front into corners but instead roll into them with unnecessarily wide entries (first sector especially).



Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 27, 2019, 11:41:57 amI never said it was impossible to lose the front under braking, in fact I said it was more than possible, and I've done it may times.

As for what you've said, Its not when I'm in the corner its approaching the corner, as I can consistently apply more brakes when turning in, than I can when braking in a straight line.

Take the session I just did on the 500 at Javi's Spa, going into the left right left at the end of the back straight, (The chicane after the Eau-Rouge section), I can only apply around 75%-80% of brake without the bike pitching over the handlebars, however as I begin to turn in, and hit that Max -Lean buffer, I can then apply 100% brake all the way to the Apex, without looping the bike, or missing the apex. (Letting off just before to pull back and setup for the next 2 turns)

Its not a question of skill, or trail braking/rider competency.
Whichever way you look at it those inputs are backwards compared to real life.

As for the bike standing up under brakes, I can understand that, but my point regarding that is sure the bike will want to stand up, but its not impossible to lean while on the brakes it'll just be a little more difficult, which is hard to achieve in a game, so maybe slowing down the direction changes, or making the rider weight more imp active of this for those of us who use that separate control, that bits up to Pib.

My point is, there isn't an invisible external entity/force PREVENTING someone from leaning a bike over under brakes, and as a result there shouldn't be in GP Bikes if its set on being a Sim.
There is however a force/external entity that makes it harder to lean, but not impossible.

PS: As for my braking competency levels, I do tend to use a more '250' smoother style, which is great for low powered bikes, like the GP250s, or the WSSP 300s, and I was actually about there in the WSSP 300 championship that seems to have stopped. (Which is typical that I was actually about there speed wise and the championship stops lol.)
I was loading up the front perhaps more than it looks in the video, and into the Hairpins it was backing in, May put the 'Inputs' Hud on from the MaxHUD as it would be interesting to see. But I know the hairpin onto the straight I was at 100% brake lever travel right up to the Apex, but could only manage around 90% on the approach. Its one of the reasons why I tend to turn in early, as I can apply more braking that way.

EDIT: I was also using 20mm brake lever travel if I remember correctly, and possibly some different discs, due to the lack of feel GPB gives through controllers, so perhaps the braking on my MotoGP vids isn't really representative.
I will say as well my personal braking has gotten worse since moving to VR, and its something I do need to work on. (Pibs M2, (NOT the 2019 M2) was a hugely good bike to learn this on, and I pretty much halved my braking distances across most bikes after practicing on that.)


Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 27, 2019, 11:57:34 amFor me the fact that the Sim is preventing you from doing something bad is an Assist, so needs to be in the game as one, especially as you can do it (lean on the brakes) IRL. (Although as I've said, it may be harder)

At the end of the day however, rider skill, competency and every other external factor is irrelevant.

The simple facts are, it IS
Possible in GPB to consistently apply more braking force on turn in than it is when going in a straight line, (without crashing) regardless of speed, or anything else, including with all assists Off.
It is NOT possible to do this in real life (without crashing).

In GPB the 'sim' DOES prevent you from leaning over fully when on the brakes with all assists Off.
This does NOT happen in real life.

Whether these options are good practice, is irrelevant, as is who does them, their skill/speed and everyother factor.
As it's about what IS and ISNT possible, and whether it's 230mph, or 30mph, it doesn't matter, as it being POSSIBLE to  apply more brake leant over (without crashing) is just wrong

Quote from: Vini on May 27, 2019, 04:46:08 pmBut on top of that you seem to be indicating that there are fundamental physics issues with braking in GPB and this is not the case.
When using setups or bikes with less powerful brakes and when not riding at the bike's actual limit, it may appear like you described.
I can upload the brake inputs from my fastest laps and you'll see perfectly realistic, smooth inputs that peak when the bike is relatively upright and trail off to zero right at the apex with no transition visible from outside. In many instances you can see the rear wheel slightly hovering in the air or the front chattering, proving that the bike is consistently at max. deceleration. On the MotoGP bikes, I use 340HM carbon discs and 16mm leverage (100% gain) and there is only one place where I am ever at 100% brake and that is COTA turn 1 with the bike fully upright.
Yes, you can hold max. brake on some other bikes right until the apex but then you will never reach max. lean of the bike because the bike can't turn like that. Also, when leaning the bike up to a certain point you can actually brake marginally harder because the traction of the front is still good and the weight distribution and geometry is better, hence backing in the rear. But this is only works up to a certain lean angle, where continued brake intensity will begin hindering the bike's ability to turn, resulting in either running wide or locking the front.
Moreover, because it is easier to feel the limit of the front (vibration and visual feedback) than the exact balance point of the bike in GPB, one tends to get a lot closer to max. decel. when being at (slight) lean, making it seem like you can brake harder at more lean.

In your COTA MotoGP vid, I can see that you are not at the balance point when the bike is upright, then quickly back it in to feel the limit better and apply more brake (T1), keep that braking power relatively consistently but then drop it abruptly in order to get the bike to turn instead of trailing off smoothly all the way up to max. lean at the apex (T15/T11/T19), making you run wide.






Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on May 27, 2019, 05:18:56 pmThis thread, although it has turned into a 'Braking thread', was made to be more of a leaning thread, as GPB imposes a leaning limit where there shouldn't be. Only reason I brought up braking is because the 2 can be related, and are more often than not. If there's an issue with the brakes then that really should be somewhere else.

But what the hell, I'll continue anyway.

Off Topicness:


When I ride in GP Bikes, on the default setup of most machines, applying full brake lever travel will loop the bike over the handlebars, or lock the front, so therefore  I have to reduce my braking Input. (realistic)

However as I begin to turn in, this goes out the window so to speak, and all of a sudden I CAN apply full front brake leverage, without flipping the bike, or even pulling a stoppie. This becomes an issue, as it allows the braking force to be increased as you near the apex and turn in further, without any issues.

AGAIN, whether its the fastest way to do it in GP Bikes, is up for debate, and AGAIN, it doesn't matter how fast you go or how competent you are at riding, that is quite simply impossible in the real world without crashing.

This in itself isn't too big of an issue. Its when its 'mixed' with the original topic of this thread, and that's the invisible 'Maximum Lean Assist' that GPB forces us to use.

It IS possible to fully lean the bike over when on the brakes in the real world. You WILL Crash, and it may be harder and a little more difficult, due to forces etc, but it is possible however, in GPB it prevents you from 'over-leaning' completely.

From the testing I did the only explanation I can come up with is that GPB calculates crashes with the amount of lean applied, hence the 'Max Lean Assist', rather than a combination of brakes and lean. I feel that sorting this would also sort out a lot of the 'Un-explainable off throttle front enders' that people have been having with more frequency since the release of B15.
Could be way off with the last para but that's just how it seems




Quote from: Vini on May 27, 2019, 07:35:39 pmUse a more aggressive brake setup and you will see that your observation will not hold true.
Here is an example that shows that adding lean angle will not give you more braking power. You can clearly see that I had to reduce front brake in order to lean further without crashing.


Myst1cPrun3

Hopefully this 'cleanup' makes things a little easier to follow, and helps keep things a little more on topic in the threads - Was my fault in the first place, not very good at explaining myself XD