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February 19, 2020, 08:19:01 pm

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The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 pm

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Myst1cPrun3

January 17, 2020, 11:14:42 am #30 Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:22:54 am by Myst1cPrun3
To put the rider skills in something I expect you'll have an opinion on, I believe Kevin Schwantz was a 10x better rider than rainey, he just lacked the ability to set the bike up when compared to Rainey.

Rainey had the best understand of the bikes behaviour, the telemetry, he was receiving on the data logger, and how to go quick to the bikes strengths. He used this to make up with the speed and what your saying is the rider skill deficiency compared to KS.

He also had arguably better equipment, better tech, and better staff.

Intact until Stuart shenton went to Suzuki they were jamming the thing up with shims instead of using thrust bearings 😂

Which further shows Schwantz ability to ride around issues, and the ability of Rainey to set the bike up.
If they started on the same equipment, I believe Rainey wouldn't have been champion. Certainly not 3 times.

The result of his knowledge of setup was Rainey getting three WC compared to Schwantz 1, despite him being arguably the worse rider.

(Not bad by any stretch but u get what I mean)

Hawk

@Myst1cPrun3:

I cannot agree with you about the rider skills today of setup of the bike and electronics equalling the natural manual skills of a rider of the past era at all, and you seem to be suggesting that the riders of the past manual skills are lacking cause they still cannot ride any faster with electronics than they could without them? You can only ride a bike so fast with or without electronic aids, so if a lesser skilled rider is only able to make up their short-comings by electronic aids to match the more manually skilled riders performances then that doesn't mean that the manually skilled rider is less skilled in the use of the electronic aids cause as I said a bike can only go so fast whether ridden with or without electronic aids, the electronic aids just allow the lesser skilled riders to greatly narrow or even equal that skills gap to the truly talented manual riders performances, hence your getting the tighter racing we see today. So no, I personally think you have deduced the reasons for that wrongly.

As for the KS and WR era battles: Again, I have to disagree with your reasoning about their talents and reasons for the different amount of championship wins between them.

I do agree with you on one point, that KS was the more naturally gifted rider of the two. But the reason he lost out to WR on championships wasn't anything to do with setup ability of himself or team Suzuki, it was simply that in most seasons KS was on slightly inferior machinery and had to push harder than WR to keep up the pace. When you have to push hard all the time then it's only a matter of time before mistakes are made and if you remember, KS's career was riddled with occasions where people were just expecting him to crash.
WR was the more consistent rider by a country mile, able to be so mainly cause he didn't have to push so hard in the races due to his slightly better machinery, but they were both more or less as equally talented as each other in my opinion, just in different skill-sets, KS was the naturally gifted rider whereas WR was gifted in his ability to be constantly consistent, and it's consistence in performances that win championships.... It's no good being brilliant in a few races only to end up sliding down the track on your arse for the rest of the season, that won't win you anything except maybe a lot of fan-base support for your spectacular riding.

KS has always said that it's a shame they never got to ride on equal machinery cause it would've been very interesting to see if WR could've still been as consistent in his performances having someone who could've pushed him even harder at less risk of crashing. That would've been very interesting to have seen the outcome. So I can agree with you again(all this agreement is shocking!! LOL! ;D  ) that I also think WR wouldn't have won so many championships if KS was on equal machinery, but it would've still been a very close battle between them and also close on the total championships won for each of them.... But it was definitely a brilliant era to witness nonetheless. ;D


Myst1cPrun3

I wasn't comparing skills of modern an past, I just used it as a way of trying to get a point across, using a time you're clearly more comfortable talking in.

What I was trying to say, is that a rider who doesn't have as precise of a throttle control, but is good at setting the bike up with the electronics can close the gap to a very naturally gifted rider.
 
This naturally gifted rider may even be running electronics, but if it's set up is slightly out, it can be more of a handicap than an aid.

That's why I deem it a skill, as the set ups for these electronics have to be so precise, translating rider feedback into the graphs, and then translating all those into a physical change that benefits the motorcycle to a degree of precision that we can't even comprehend.

To me that judgement and level of interpretation is a skill required of a modern Grand Prix Rider. Sure it may not be THE skill so to speak, but anyone who can master this, and then ride at a decent pace, is deserving.

GP Bikes setup screen is just enough for me. I did try maxTM to setup my bikes. It is a cool app, but my brain was just going blank 😂


As for KS, he himself has admitted that WR was better at setups, and that the Suzuki always had some sort of setup issue, up until about '93, which, WR remarked was a different KS. (He started to adopt WRs approach and became more consistent)


All this is in the book by Mat Oxely called, rather hilariously considering the topic of talk we're in,
'An Age Of Superheroes: A time before traction control'

If you haven't picked it up, I strongly recommend you do, it's right up your street. Season reviews from '89 to '93 with behind the scenes interviews with all the main protagonists and a lot of in depth talk about things going on. On and off track. Like when Wayne gardener parked his mirrored motorhome across from the Suzuki pit and then the HRC staff went inside and used it as cover to take pictures of the RGV without fairings on. (Once honda overlayed the pics in their bike they found that they had the engine too low which was affecting handling btw)

I do believe if they were in the same machinery Schwantz would have had more titles, and would have been more successful. Be won more races than rainey over the same period, which should say it all really.

He either had mechanicals or crashes due to deficiencies in the bike or setup. But rainey was second or third when he didn't win most of the time

Myst1cPrun3

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Superheroes-Sideways-Through-Schwantz/dp/1844255832

I didn't really realise how expensive this thing was, it being a Christmas present and all. But we'll with it imo