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The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 pm

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Myst1cPrun3

January 17, 2020, 11:14:42 am #30 Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 11:22:54 am by Myst1cPrun3
To put the rider skills in something I expect you'll have an opinion on, I believe Kevin Schwantz was a 10x better rider than rainey, he just lacked the ability to set the bike up when compared to Rainey.

Rainey had the best understand of the bikes behaviour, the telemetry, he was receiving on the data logger, and how to go quick to the bikes strengths. He used this to make up with the speed and what your saying is the rider skill deficiency compared to KS.

He also had arguably better equipment, better tech, and better staff.

Intact until Stuart shenton went to Suzuki they were jamming the thing up with shims instead of using thrust bearings 😂

Which further shows Schwantz ability to ride around issues, and the ability of Rainey to set the bike up.
If they started on the same equipment, I believe Rainey wouldn't have been champion. Certainly not 3 times.

The result of his knowledge of setup was Rainey getting three WC compared to Schwantz 1, despite him being arguably the worse rider.

(Not bad by any stretch but u get what I mean)

Hawk

@Myst1cPrun3:

I cannot agree with you about the rider skills today of setup of the bike and electronics equalling the natural manual skills of a rider of the past era at all, and you seem to be suggesting that the riders of the past manual skills are lacking cause they still cannot ride any faster with electronics than they could without them? You can only ride a bike so fast with or without electronic aids, so if a lesser skilled rider is only able to make up their short-comings by electronic aids to match the more manually skilled riders performances then that doesn't mean that the manually skilled rider is less skilled in the use of the electronic aids cause as I said a bike can only go so fast whether ridden with or without electronic aids, the electronic aids just allow the lesser skilled riders to greatly narrow or even equal that skills gap to the truly talented manual riders performances, hence your getting the tighter racing we see today. So no, I personally think you have deduced the reasons for that wrongly.

As for the KS and WR era battles: Again, I have to disagree with your reasoning about their talents and reasons for the different amount of championship wins between them.

I do agree with you on one point, that KS was the more naturally gifted rider of the two. But the reason he lost out to WR on championships wasn't anything to do with setup ability of himself or team Suzuki, it was simply that in most seasons KS was on slightly inferior machinery and had to push harder than WR to keep up the pace. When you have to push hard all the time then it's only a matter of time before mistakes are made and if you remember, KS's career was riddled with occasions where people were just expecting him to crash.
WR was the more consistent rider by a country mile, able to be so mainly cause he didn't have to push so hard in the races due to his slightly better machinery, but they were both more or less as equally talented as each other in my opinion, just in different skill-sets, KS was the naturally gifted rider whereas WR was gifted in his ability to be constantly consistent, and it's consistence in performances that win championships.... It's no good being brilliant in a few races only to end up sliding down the track on your arse for the rest of the season, that won't win you anything except maybe a lot of fan-base support for your spectacular riding.

KS has always said that it's a shame they never got to ride on equal machinery cause it would've been very interesting to see if WR could've still been as consistent in his performances having someone who could've pushed him even harder at less risk of crashing. That would've been very interesting to have seen the outcome. So I can agree with you again(all this agreement is shocking!! LOL! ;D  ) that I also think WR wouldn't have won so many championships if KS was on equal machinery, but it would've still been a very close battle between them and also close on the total championships won for each of them.... But it was definitely a brilliant era to witness nonetheless. ;D


Myst1cPrun3

I wasn't comparing skills of modern an past, I just used it as a way of trying to get a point across, using a time you're clearly more comfortable talking in.

What I was trying to say, is that a rider who doesn't have as precise of a throttle control, but is good at setting the bike up with the electronics can close the gap to a very naturally gifted rider.
 
This naturally gifted rider may even be running electronics, but if it's set up is slightly out, it can be more of a handicap than an aid.

That's why I deem it a skill, as the set ups for these electronics have to be so precise, translating rider feedback into the graphs, and then translating all those into a physical change that benefits the motorcycle to a degree of precision that we can't even comprehend.

To me that judgement and level of interpretation is a skill required of a modern Grand Prix Rider. Sure it may not be THE skill so to speak, but anyone who can master this, and then ride at a decent pace, is deserving.

GP Bikes setup screen is just enough for me. I did try maxTM to setup my bikes. It is a cool app, but my brain was just going blank 😂


As for KS, he himself has admitted that WR was better at setups, and that the Suzuki always had some sort of setup issue, up until about '93, which, WR remarked was a different KS. (He started to adopt WRs approach and became more consistent)


All this is in the book by Mat Oxely called, rather hilariously considering the topic of talk we're in,
'An Age Of Superheroes: A time before traction control'

If you haven't picked it up, I strongly recommend you do, it's right up your street. Season reviews from '89 to '93 with behind the scenes interviews with all the main protagonists and a lot of in depth talk about things going on. On and off track. Like when Wayne gardener parked his mirrored motorhome across from the Suzuki pit and then the HRC staff went inside and used it as cover to take pictures of the RGV without fairings on. (Once honda overlayed the pics in their bike they found that they had the engine too low which was affecting handling btw)

I do believe if they were in the same machinery Schwantz would have had more titles, and would have been more successful. Be won more races than rainey over the same period, which should say it all really.

He either had mechanicals or crashes due to deficiencies in the bike or setup. But rainey was second or third when he didn't win most of the time

Myst1cPrun3

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Age-Superheroes-Sideways-Through-Schwantz/dp/1844255832

I didn't really realise how expensive this thing was, it being a Christmas present and all. But we'll with it imo

Myst1cPrun3

You may find this interesting @Hawk.

While it's only gonna be noticeable at the peak performance of a GP machine, it does seem to make a difference apparently.



Hawk

I've never heard SO MUCH trollop in all my life! LOLS!!!!! Hahaha! ;D  ;D  ;D

A good example of a rider who needs to convince himself that there is a need for copying what Rossi started by mistake all those years ago! Hahaha!  ;D  ;D

Absolute bullsh*t! LOL!  ;D

I guarantee any rider that their lap times would be no different if they rode with dangling their leg compared to not dangling their leg..... If I was the one doing the demonstration, I'd bet my life on it!!  ;D  ;D

Truth is Rossi, all those years ago, shit himself going into a corner and put his leg down cause he thought the bike was going to wash away from him, that is the Gods honest truth of this whole leg-dangle crap..... And knowing Rossi, he's probably getting a big kick from leaving the leg-dangle as a piss-take legacy to Modern MotoGP, and I wouldn't mind betting that once he retires he'll come out and tell everyone the real truth behind it all. LOLS!!  ;D  ;D  :P

matty0l215

I will say the man did win a WSBK championship...

Hawk

Quote from: matty0l215 on April 07, 2020, 10:06:44 pmI will say the man did win a WSBK championship...

That doesn't mean anything..... Anyone can talk bullshit no matter what they've achieved. Just cause someone has a Masters Degree doesn't mean they are not an idiot with it, does it. Lol.  ;D

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on April 07, 2020, 10:12:11 pmAnyone can talk bullshit no matter what they've achieved. 

And indeed they are doing
;)

Myst1cPrun3

Na in all seriousness, after, accidentally, doing it at my race school last year, can confirm it does provide more support.

But even without that, the man's raced everything under the sun, had some very smart people helping him, and has won at the top level, so I'd bet that he's got at least some factual reason for doing so....

Also, he did state that it only affects performance at the very top of rider and bike performance, so we on our little pointers will likely never even get to the point it's necessary.

Unless you get a false neutral at 130 going into the foggy esses... Then you flap everything, arse crack included

Myst1cPrun3

I mean, each leg weighs something like 20% of your total body weight, so moving that about, particularly on a GP bike, being less than 140 kg wet, it's gonna make a difference.

Hawk

He also stated that it makes very little difference, the excuse being that at the very top performance every little bit helps; well it only helps if you can be sock-on consistant enough that little difference actual could make a difference..... I doubt even MM is that consistent that the little difference it could make would give him an advantage.... I doubt whether your talking a 1000th of a second difference if any, and that sort of diffrence could almost certainly be gone each lap by braking an inch or two too late or simliar. Lol! So no, I absolutely don't beleave any of this rubbish about leg dangling at all.... There is no one alive who could be consistent enough in their performance throughout a whole GP for such a minute gain(if any)to make that much difference..... It's a Rossi joke, I bet ya. Lol!  ;D  ;D

Myst1cPrun3

Only helps if you're consistent? Not really. It can help a rider be more consistent on the edge, and in a world where wins and losses are measured in thousandths of seconds, this little bit of consistency and confidence that may be gotten could be a win or anything else.

After all, if you're not winning you're losing.

Anything that makes a rider more comfortable on the bike is a win, even if lap times aren't affected. As being comfortable and confident on it is 1/2 the battle.

As for no-one being consistent enough for it to make a difference...
Are you forgetting the numerous times Lorenzo's completed entire GPS with lap times being no more than 1 tenth of a second in variation?

And he's not the only rider doing this.. hell even mm has done it to within a tenth or two...

And the Rossi joke... Itay have been a mistake, but he made the apex of the turn, and didn't even run wide, so he obviously had the confidence in the bike to carry on the maneuver.

So maybe it started off as a mistake, but he found it to help in braking later for his consistency. I mean after Jerez '05 he became known for his late braking, and he was the only one dangling at the time... Now he's not even the latest and everyone doest it.... Why is that then?

As for believing its effectiveness, I'm never going to be fast enough for this to really affect my riding, but, based off evidence, I'm gonna have to believe a wsbk champion who has not only done it and won it, at the highest level, but has literally no reason to lie about this.

Disclaimer:

While I can understand it would make a, minute, difference to the highest level, and those that are capable of getting to this level, I too despise it.

Certainly at anything less than BSB/British Supersports level there isn't a need for it. So when I see some newcomer on a 400 at my local waving a leg like it's falling off, I feel a little bit sad. :'D



Myst1cPrun3

I mean, like I said above one leg can weigh up to 20% of a man's total body mass, combined the average male has close to half his mass in legs...
Now you go stand in your living room on one leg and swing the other about, and tell me it doesn't make a difference to your balance?

This wouldn't change on a motorcycle, just because there's extra variables the originals don't disappear.

What the actual results of this are are likely only noticeable on a top spec machine, at the top level of performance which it's unlikely we'll get to. Ever.

So while we can put our tinfoil hats on and ignore facts and physics and say it's a joke  blah blah blah, this is the closest to an accurate explanation we'll get.

Can I ask, have you ever tried dangling a leg on a track under hard braking?

Hawk

April 09, 2020, 06:04:21 am #44 Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 06:06:44 am by Hawk
No mate.... I'm 57 years old! :o ;D  I come from the era of real bike racers not these namby-pamby leg-dangling riders we have these days(fishing for a big bite here. Lol! ;D )..... No, seriously & sadly, my bike racing days have long been over. Lol! ;D :'( 

But I do disagree with the premise that leg dangling, if it was beneficial to gaining in lap times, could only be demonstrated and beneficial on an elite top end racing bike, or just the elite MotoGP categories. If leg dangling was of any benefit in racing lap times then it would be beneficial in any category of bike racing, be that production to the elite MotoGP bike racing;  it would be the rider and their style of riding that would be the benefit not the bike itself that predisposes that benefit from the leg dangling. This in itself demonstrates that these people are talking rubbish when they say it would only be of benefit on elite racing bikes or categories. Absolute rubbish.

Yes, shifting body-weight around on a bike does make big differences if it's applied in the right circumstances. A really good visual representation of the effects of shifting a riders body-weight around on a bike can be very much seen when you see "Speedway" bike riders racing around a dirt-track, or MXBike riders racing; and the principle for road racing is the same in generating that feeling for how to shift body-weight to control a bike in slides, etc, etc. That's why many road racers do a lot of MXBike riding to hone that natural feeling of shifting the body-weight to control a bike.....
But no.... Leg dangling in itself won't make any beneficial differences to a road-racing riders lap times that couldn't be achieved by keeping ones foot on the pedals and shifting the body weight around without sticking the leg out. Lol!

Leg dangling is just an adopted style of riding which looks so ridiculous that riders feel the need to justify it by pinning bullsh*t physics excuses for it's uses..... It's a bit like tattoos becoming fashionable so you get the trible effect coming into play. There's no particular benefit to having a tattoo except that it makes certain individuals feel better for having it at the time, and in that respect identifies probably the biggest benefit of all in this leg-dangling nonsense in that it provides the rider with a psychological comforter and makes them feel better which naturally translates into a more confident rider which would further translate into possibly better lap times. This is more likely to be the real benefits of leg-dangling rather than any nonsense physics advantages.