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The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 pm

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Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 18, 2019, 06:09:56 am
Quote from: Hawk on July 18, 2019, 02:08:30 amI give up on you young ones..... Sometimes I think your a lost cause with no appreciation for what's right and wrong in sport these days???
I mean where has the honor gone from a lot of sports, where has the true sporting spirit gone?


I'm not sure using a motorbike with Traction Control is the same as having no honor, I mean, you don't see the Japanese riders committing seppuku at the end of a race do you...

As for true sporting spirit, the definition of that is:

"If you are ready to compete in a fair manner without favouring yourself or others unjustly and never giving up when things are hard accepting defeat and victory without arrogance or bitterness, that is a sporting spirit"

I don't know, but to me that seems still highly relevant to current sports and motogp, everyone shakes hands at the end, and for the most part it's a fair race. Rossi atm is the epitome of never giving up, and Marquez remains quite humble, considering he's winning everything that exists..

Quote from: Hawk on July 18, 2019, 02:08:30 amIt seems to me that the younger-gen are only interested in winning at any cost and be-damned with any sense of what true sport is all about.


Sport is about winning. If we don't want to win, what's the point at competing?

There isn't one.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm just going to jog the 100m Olympic finals as winning just isn't honoured. Can you hear what you're saying its ridiculous.
Its a RACE, the goal of a Race is to finish first, fairly of course, which again for the most part, motogp does.

Quote from: Hawk on July 18, 2019, 02:08:30 amIt's the same attitude with your computer gaming with a lot of youngsters these days.... So long as they win whether it's by hack or crook that's perfectly okay with them.... I just don't understand cause you surely can't get any sort of fulfillment or pride from the direction many sports have gone these days?


I can speak from experience when it comes to hacking, as I did hack Csgo and I did get banned from it, and as a result I know some games are very, very trying of one's patience.
However it's not the right thing to do and I really don't encourage anyone to do it.

I will say, you do get a DIFFERENT enjoyment out of it, owning people, and seeing them get mad, after you've just gone through all those feelings. It's a bit of a satisfying thing oddly, and for me, wasn't to do with winning the game but just releasing my frustration onto someone else, which is a complete low blow yes I know.


Quote from: Hawk on July 18, 2019, 02:08:30 amModern attitudes..... Phfff!!! PURE MADNESS!!! :o  :o  :o :P

The problem is the Old 'we have to go back as it was better then' attitudes, unable to accept change, and keeping us stuck 10 years back at least. This isn't 1987, things have changed, accept that move on, and in the immortal words of Disney,

LET IT GO.

That happened, instead of being sad its not around anymore, be happy you got to experience it at the time .
Because I didn't, and I wish I could have.



Everything you answered in your last post to my questions of modern sport and attitudes of winning today, you actually defined how it should be, how it used to be, and then have contradicted it's very definition and justified it as progress and the modern way things are nowadays???? :o  :o
That doesn't make it okay to continue down the path of destroying the heart of a sport just because people have got used to the way it is now, what's wrong is wrong, what's right is right no matter what the era we're talking about. You don't just collapse and fall down just because some big corporations decide they want to make it into a big money-spinning project for their businesses and be-damned the actual sport itself.

Typical.... It's all about money, money, money and winning at all costs these days no matter the cost to tearing out the heart of the sport in the process.... It's all very sad to see it happening in such an insidious way.

And by the way.... Motorsport is by its very nature a dangerous life risk sport..... No matter how safe people think they have made the tracks people will still die, often cause of safety implementations in some freak cases..... That's not to say that reasonable safety precautions shouldn't be taken, but to say that riders know the risks involved and should ride accordingly..... If they don't then they know very well they could die for the extra risks they take to win.
People don't need mothering, and these self-righteous, self important do-gooders that think they need to stop the high speed corners just because their isn't enough run off area to stop potential serious injuries need to pull their heads in...... You can die from a 20MPH collision or even less and yet survive another collision at over 100MPH, so no matter what over-zealous mothering safety precautions are implemented, it won't stop accidental deaths from happening and never will do.

As for us oldies just not wanting things to change; what nonsense. Lol. It's about the older generation having the knowledge and experience to know better when they see something changing for the worse. Typical youngsters thinking they are indestructible and know it all for the future they want from life..... There's an old seemingly forgotten saying, "Your elders know better", and as you get older you'll realise that all those elders who were warning you of what's wrong with modern times, etc, etc, turn out to be true, then as you get older you'll start saying the very same thing to your young ones..... Don't you think it's about time the younger generations actually started to listen to the voice of experience and knowledge and act on it? Maybe if they did, the world would be a better place for all of us. ;) ;D

guigui404

Je vais répondre en français parce-que je manie mieux ma langue , t'es vraiment quelqu'un de pédant c'est assez incroyable. Je comprends pas , tu écris tu écris tu écris , beaucoup , mais c'est vide. Tu trouves les courses de l'époque plus plaisantes ? Bien alors regarde les courses de motos anciennes , il y en a des milliers.
Evidemment que le but est de faire de l'argent & de toujours avancer technologiquement , c'est juste logique , et le spectacle que nous offre le MotoGP actuel est incroyable (Ne me rabache pas que les 500cc c'était mieux , c'est ton avis , j'en ai vu aussi des courses de 2-temps , & non , c'était pas particulièrement bien mieux).
Et cesse d'utiliser ton âge pour te convaincre toi même , dans un débat , c'est clairement pas un argument recevable.
C'est dommage qu'un passionné comme toi soit sans cesse obligé de cracher sur le sport.

Hawk

Quote from: guigui404 on July 18, 2019, 12:12:34 pmJe vais répondre en français parce-que je manie mieux ma langue , t'es vraiment quelqu'un de pédant c'est assez incroyable. Je comprends pas , tu écris tu écris tu écris , beaucoup , mais c'est vide. Tu trouves les courses de l'époque plus plaisantes ? Bien alors regarde les courses de motos anciennes , il y en a des milliers.
Evidemment que le but est de faire de l'argent & de toujours avancer technologiquement , c'est juste logique , et le spectacle que nous offre le MotoGP actuel est incroyable (Ne me rabache pas que les 500cc c'était mieux , c'est ton avis , j'en ai vu aussi des courses de 2-temps , & non , c'était pas particulièrement bien mieux).
Et cesse d'utiliser ton âge pour te convaincre toi même , dans un débat , c'est clairement pas un argument recevable.
C'est dommage qu'un passionné comme toi soit sans cesse obligé de cracher sur le sport.


Firstly, I ain't no big fan of modern MotoGP.... It's a fake sport now to say the least and a grand spectacle facade of what it used to be..... Only those that didn't experience the greatest era of GP500 motorcycle racing could ever think that this modern era of MotoGP is good for the sport, not that you can really call   modern MotoGP a sport anymore after it's been bastardized so much since the forced end of the GP500 era. :P

And yes, this is my opinion and my thread, so if you don't like it then don't participate, but I will say what I think is happening to MotoGP these days as I always have done here when someone brings these issues up, and you have every right to disagree and have your own opinion, that's fair enough too.... Bring it on matey.... Let's debate this! :P  ;D

But from what you've just said then I rest my case in justifying my opinion that you've obviously took a disliking to so much. :P

Myst1cPrun3

I've re-read my comments and I think I can make some explanations, as it seems a bit all over the place, (Using a phone for something like that, not ideal BTW).

I agree with what I said describing how sportsmanship/racing used to be, but at the same time I also agree that (Certainly in Motorsports) its not actually changed much.

People still care about people and peoples welfare, and despite it being a multi-billion pound 'circus' (which is an appropriate word as there is a lot of 'phaff' compared to track time now a days, I'll give you that Hawk) it still is quite a sporting enterprise.

I'll never forget, in the first year Michelin was the control tyre, at one of the preseason tests in Malaysia, I think it was Rabat had a tyre blowout at 190+ mph (Like Nakano at Mugello), and he came off down the finish straight. Everyone completely stopped what they were doing, and ran to aid where they could. I remember a TV interview was stopped as well. It just took me by surprise, as I had assumed it was all business, and the 'Human' side of MotoGP isn't really shown. (Its why I also loved Cal + Jack Millers commentary promotion thing as its generally light hearted and pure banter, I think Jack Miller went on about going through Cal's wife every night XD)

As much as it pains me to say it, and as much as I don't want to, in my lifetime, the least sporting person I've seen on the grid, especially the last 4-5 years, has to be Rossi. He seems to have gotten more bitter, stubborn and desperate in his old age, and its showing in his mannerisms, and yamaha are beginning to see that as well now. (Jarvis has said he expects no arguments when that time comes, and that he's no longer the main focus of Yamaha's MotoGP efforts, and isn't its future)

While I appreciate you're not a fan of current MotoGP Hawky, as much as you want to believe otherwise it has never been better. You can say the 'back in my day' schpiel, and assists being to much and all, but the stats don't lie..

RECORD Speeds
RECORD Lap Times
RECORD Lean Angles
The CLOSEST racing there has ever been. (Context, With exception to MIR who had a weird Warm-up lap accident, at Le Mans this year all the finishers were within 35 seconds, now regardless of WHY that is, it provides an exciting Race)

And perhaps more importantly to this little debate:

RECORD Crowds (Even compared to ye olde 500s)
RECORD TV Audiences (Granted that's more the modern social media Era but its still a Viewing Record)

Obviously, (And no offence here) you're in the minority thinking its in a bad place at the minute, sure it could be better, and sure there are things that I'd change, as I would with most things, but at the minute.

Money. As, again with all things, it comes down to what my Dad describes as the second biggest evil in the world: Money)
(The other one being Religion, but again a different topic, (However 'I believe in my imaginary friend more so I will kill you now to prove it' is sort of the direction that convo usually takes with him)

Back to topic. Money has ALWAYS been a part of Racing, both on 1,2,3 +4 wheels, for as long as there has been racing. It always will be as well.

Nowadays the money seems to be at a good point, for teams + manufacturers being able to enter, and become competitive with the 'concessions'.
Money, was a much larger problem back in what you described as the golden days of GP Racing..

The 500s.

It was only after (I believe it was the FIM at the time and not DORNA) told manufacturers to sell cheap(er) versions of their machines to privateers that the grids started filling up again, and even then there was a severe distinctive speed difference, between the 'Rich' and the 'Poor' teams.

To put that into context today, I read somewhere that the old Marlboro Yamaha sponsorship with team Roberts was worth several million dollars for the duration it was team Roberts, and Rothman's even hired the film crews to Televise all the Races, to get maximum advertisements. Even into the new millenia, what became known as the 'Marlboro Millions' was still a desire for race teams, (Ducati, Ferrari etc), and it still is today.

In fact, the entire Furore with the Mission Winnow advertising on the Ferrari F1 cars and the Ducati MotoGP bikes, is that Mission Winnow is a company that doesn't actually do anything at the minute, (Their website is just a bunch of Looped, Vague Hyperlinks), yet they are owned by Marlboro, and as a result of them not doing anything, and their owners being the owners or Marlboro, and the fact the 'Logos' are similar, people think its just a sneaky Marlboro/Tobacco Advert.

The thing that ruined MotorSport in General, for me, is the ability to watch the races from everywhere, making sponsorship much more valuable. From the minute Sponsorship became pretty much essential, it completely changed the face of motorcycle racing, and the last 'true' golden age for me was the time period when the TT was still on the bloody calendar, with the big booming singles and twins (50s-60s, possibly very early 70s)

It also makes me believe again that you're looking at the 500 era through 'rose tinted spectacles', seeing only the good parts - the bikes, the rivalries etc, and ignoring the rest of it - the financial troubles, injuries, dwindling grids, horrific safety standards (Even by the early 90s the 500cc engine tech was MASSIVELY ahead of, suspension development, tyre development, frame development, not to mention track safety standards at that time) Ultimately, those were the reasons for scrapping them at the time, and after they did, entries, TV audiences + Trackside crowds, went up, (Argue all you want its a fact), as well as injuries and financial costs coming down. (Except for the 800cc era, but we don't talk about that, as by ANYONE's account, old, young, fetus, or dead, that was a dark era for MotoGP... As low as 15 Riders on the Grid come on)

World Superbikes now is going through what MotoGP/500GP went through in the 90s, and I believe there will be a shake-up there, similar to what happened with the 500cc - 990cc change in GP's


Quote from: guigui404 on July 18, 2019, 12:12:34 pmJe vais répondre en français parce-que je manie mieux ma langue , t'es vraiment quelqu'un de pédant c'est assez incroyable. Je comprends pas , tu écris tu écris tu écris , beaucoup , mais c'est vide. Tu trouves les courses de l'époque plus plaisantes ? Bien alors regarde les courses de motos anciennes , il y en a des milliers.
Evidemment que le but est de faire de l'argent & de toujours avancer technologiquement , c'est juste logique , et le spectacle que nous offre le MotoGP actuel est incroyable (Ne me rabache pas que les 500cc c'était mieux , c'est ton avis , j'en ai vu aussi des courses de 2-temps , & non , c'était pas particulièrement bien mieux).
Et cesse d'utiliser ton âge pour te convaincre toi même , dans un débat , c'est clairement pas un argument recevable.
C'est dommage qu'un passionné comme toi soit sans cesse obligé de cracher sur le sport.



After using Google translate, (Despite doing french at high-school I. Just. Can't. With. That.) I will say I kind of agree with most of what was said, and in a much more blunt way, (My man guigui doesn't mince those words does he, go on my son), was what I was trying to get at, in that sure its not what it is now, and sure the old days may have had something special, but the new era has something else as well, that, perhaps only the younger ones, who have grown up surrounded by technology will see.






Myst1cPrun3

I will however say, that while I prefer Modern MotoGP over older GP Variants (At least to watch), it is the opposite for Superbikes/Supersport/Production Based Classes.

Give me a 916/VTR/750 over a V4r Panigale any-day

Myst1cPrun3

August 06, 2019, 08:33:10 am #5 Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 09:37:54 am by Myst1cPrun3
No doubt you'll have something to say about this Hawk:



Sourcesb, everything MotoGP, Tulovic, and Keifer Racing

Hawk

Yep.... But no surprises here.... Just sounds like the continued ruination of a great sport to me.... They'll never learn will they. :o  :-X  ;D

This would never have happened in my day! Hehe! ;D  ;D

The riders had more balls in my day to stand-up to the authorities that be and make the sport into what it was at the time.... Nowadays they're all a bunch of pussies towing the corporate team lines. Not good! :-X  :P

Until they bring back the good old 2 strokes I've just lost total interest in what is now called "MotoGP".... It's a tragedy the direction they forced upon this great sport, but not only for the sport, I feel sorry for the riders too having to ride these electronically controlled 4 stroke monstrosities!  ;) ;D

And so the saga continues.......... (Sigh) ;D  ;D  ;)   

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 02:02:08 pmYep.... But no surprises here.... Just sounds like the continued ruination of a great sport to me.... They'll never learn will they. :o  :-X  ;D

This would never have happened in my day! Hehe! ;D  ;D

The riders had more balls in my day to stand-up to the authorities that be and make the sport into what it was at the time.... Nowadays they're all a bunch of pussies towing the corporate team lines. Not good! :-X  :P

Until they bring back the good old 2 strokes I've just lost total interest in what is now called "MotoGP".... It's a tragedy the direction they forced upon this great sport, but not only for the sport, I feel sorry for the riders too having to ride these electronically controlled 4 stroke monstrosities!  ;) ;D

And so the saga continues.......... (Sigh) ;D  ;D  ;)   

Aaand there we go 😘

While I do like motogp now a days, and prefer the racing, this is a shit show.
MotoE should be separate to the main paddock, like formula e is with formula 1.
The fact that lower class teams are being refused entries for it is ridiculous.

On another note, if Moto e was like formula e, maybe even in the same paddock as that, imagine it on temp street circuits with things like fan boost etc...
I'd watch it, and others would to. Imagine a motorbike race around Monaco.

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on August 06, 2019, 02:47:56 pmAaand there we go 😘

While I do like motogp now a days, and prefer the racing, this is a shit show.
MotoE should be separate to the main paddock, like formula e is with formula 1.
The fact that lower class teams are being refused entries for it is ridiculous.

On another note, if Moto e was like formula e, maybe even in the same paddock as that, imagine it on temp street circuits with things like fan boost etc...
I'd watch it, and others would to. Imagine a motorbike race around Monaco.

Yeah I'd like to see the street race too but C'mon, be honest, can you ever see any of these corporate teams letting their finest and dearest riders compete in a street race? I think not. Lol!
No, I'm afraid the days when motorcycle sports where at their best has long gone..... Too much money, politics and interference in the sport nowadays.

Now ask the TT riders to take part and I bet they'd jump at the chance to ride around Monaco.... Yeah, I'd like to see it! ;D 8)

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 07:26:58 pmYeah I'd like to see the street race too but C'mon, be honest, can you ever see any of these corporate teams letting their finest and dearest riders compete in a street race? I think not. Lol!

I know, and it's quite sad.


Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 07:26:58 pmNo, I'm afraid the days when motorcycle sports where at their best has long gone..... Too much money, politics and interference in the sport nowadays.

 

I don't actually think the mo eh and politics have changed too much, its juts that with the rise of social media, and more 'behind the scenes' stuff, it's just become much more prevalent. I mean, Rothmans cigarettes bought the Television rights in the early 90s so they could show only their product, and no competitors...

Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 07:26:58 pmNow ask the TT riders to take part and I bet they'd jump at the chance to ride around Monaco.... Yeah, I'd like to see it! ;D 8)


I'd love to see a race around Monaco, however I feel thag it's too dangerous, even for our danger loving tt riders.
Its very similar to Macau, and there have been several serious accidents there, on both cars and bikes recently.
Its just full of armco, and get something caught in the armco...
I believe hats what happened to Dan Hegarty. (rip)
(certainly looked that way with how he hit sadly)

But Macau and Monaco would be cool to watch as a spectator, and despite what I just said, attend Macau is a 'bucket list' thing, perhaps a little more than the TT for me.

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 07:26:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 06, 2019, 07:26:58 pm[

Yeah I'd like to see the street race too but C'mon, be honest, can you ever see any of these corporate teams letting their finest and dearest riders compete in a street race? I think not. Lol!


Thinking about it, I guess that's what the IRRC is for.
(International Road Racing Championship)
Believe ex moto3 rider Danny Webb is doing well there, along with people like Horst Saiger and Davey Todd.
And its 'proper' Road racing, with big(ish) teams if I'm not mistaken.
Like one up from national level superbikes, but one down from world SBKS etc

WALKEN

Things evolve and are remembered with in the context of the moment. History solidifies moments for the future. Nothing can replace the moment live!

That being said, anyone that has never rode a 2 stroke bike has no idea how much of a smile it puts on your face. Its not an old person thing remembering the past, its technology pushed aside because of emissions. If MotoGP came out with 750cc 2 strokes at the same time they introduced the 990 4 stroke, it would be a moot point. The 750 would have eaten it alive no question!

Motocross still run 85cc, 125cc, 250cc 2 strokes.

I can't imagine anyone who has run both would ever disagree? Brrrrrrrrap! :)       
Help me, help you!

Hawk

September 27, 2019, 01:29:02 am #12 Last Edit: September 27, 2019, 01:37:28 am by Hawk
Quote from: WALKEN on September 26, 2019, 06:29:23 pmThings evolve and are remembered with in the context of the moment. History solidifies moments for the future. Nothing can replace the moment live!

That being said, anyone that has never rode a 2 stroke bike has no idea how much of a smile it puts on your face. Its not an old person thing remembering the past, its technology pushed aside because of emissions. If MotoGP came out with 750cc 2 strokes at the same time they introduced the 990 4 stroke, it would be a moot point. The 750 would have eaten it alive no question!

Motocross still run 85cc, 125cc, 250cc 2 strokes.

I can't imagine anyone who has run both would ever disagree? Brrrrrrrrap! :)     

Totally agree with you mate.  ;)

To be honest, I have never believed the "Real" reason for abandoning the two strokes was down to emissions at all, it was simply down to the fact that they wanted to push 4 strokes for the public market rather than the 2 strokes.... I think Honda where greatly behind these business politics; they had been trying to convert everyone to 4 strokes in racing for many years before the 4 strokes actually forcefully took over the sport.... it was all down to business and money and nothing to do with emissions.... Just travel to asia or india and see just how many 2 strokes there are in use in those countries which have far greater populations than Europe.... No mate, there was a more devious surreptitious reason for them dropping the 2 stroke motorcycles.

Have you ever realised that we don't hear them talking about dropping the diesel engine cause of all the masses of air particles and crap they have always pushed out in their exhaust gases, a lot worse than anything 2 strokes ever pushed out.... Something just didn't really make sense about dropping 2 strokes for emission reasons except for the fact that they thought telling everyone they need to drop 2 strokes to help save the planet would be readily accepted as a good enough reason without the public realising they were just pulling the wool over peoples eyes in doing that. :o

Myst1cPrun3

Gonna dig up this thread again, as there is one thing I'd like to see in modern motogp, however the extreme high compression engines may make it impossible / extremely hard:

Bump starts.

Green flag goes, race starts

Riders push the bikes to start them

This happens after the official start of the race

Hawk

November 22, 2019, 07:38:21 pm #14 Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 07:46:13 pm by Hawk
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on November 22, 2019, 07:23:20 pmGonna dig up this thread again, as there is one thing I'd like to see in modern motogp, however the extreme high compression engines may make it impossible / extremely hard:

Bump starts.

Green flag goes, race starts

Riders push the bikes to start them

This happens after the official start of the race

Yep.... Totally agree with you mate. It would bring back an added spectacle to the sport.... And if they cannot push start the current bikes cause of compression issues then bring in a max compression rule so they could push start them..... Simply done and sorted. ;D

The do-gooders of this world would not like the idea though, too dangerous for them. Lol! ;D  ;D

PS: I'm sure there is somekind of electronic wizardry they could think of to lower compression for a start precedure? At least then the electronics would be of proper use for something. Hehe! ;D