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MaxHUD plugin

Started by HornetMaX, September 26, 2013, 04:34:50 PM

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Vini

I don't know. In case it does you could still add another if clause that checks for wheelie.
Would be interesting if the calculation is also helpful "in the other direction" for feeling front wheel slides.

Maybe it could be switched dynamically between rear slip and front slip mode depending on the bike rotation or suspension compression (different rumble behaviour for braking and acceleration).

HornetMaX

That's the problem with this kind of idea: there's a lot of "maybe this, maybe that".
Notice that even something as simple as detecting a wheelie is not trivial: how do you define a wheelie exactly given usual telemetry data ? If the front is 2cm off the ground, are we wheeling ?

OK, PiBoSo has made a small exception to his own rule about what is in telemetry and what is not, so for each tire the plugin knows with which material the tire is in contact (if any), so that simplifies a bit (but not fully) wheelie detection, but ...

Not sure about what you mean with "switched dynamically between rear slip and front slip mode depending on the bike rotation or suspension compression": assuming one can estimate front and rear slip angles (which again is really not simple), then you may be slipping with the rear, the front or both.
Also, the slipping you're probably referring to is the side (lateral) one: using wheel speed difference would also account for any potential longitudinal slip.

One thing you could do is to record a decent lap with MaxTelelmetry and plot the two wheel speed curves. Looking at this one can figure out if anything meaningfuyl coul be extracted processing the two wheelspeeds (somehow combining them, adding some filtering if necessary etc).

Vini

Then just do the simple formula (obviously with normalized/limited output range) and let the user enter any float for the scaling factor. That way, the user can figure out for himself if he can get a useful effect out of it and you don't have to worry about advanced rumble algorithms.

Forget the "dynamic switching" thing, I was thinking wrong.
But the wheelie/tyre-contaction detection (and subsequent rumble deactivation) would be great.

Oz555

April 18, 2021, 06:37:27 AM #903 Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 06:44:08 AM by Oz555
is there a trick to getting this working in VR? I put the Max HUD data file and the GPB d1o in the plugins folder.The widgets are displayed, but crashes the game and the headset to blue screen every time.

Myst1cPrun3

Was trying out MaxHUD rumble effects the other day, just fiddling with the settings, and I noticed that most, if not all of the vibration is to do with suspension and chassis flex.

There is nothing with tyres, whether they're approaching their 'peak' grip, or sliding. Results in some very frustrating accidents occasionally. It's also one of the reasons I played the last 2-3+ years with no vibration at all. As I didn't find it helpful in what it was telling me. But now I'm trying to set it up I want it to be as close to my liking as I can.

However after re-reading the previous posts, I'm fairly certain the absence is because of a GPB data output limitation, not the actual mod itself, so I'm not sure how much can be done.

May need a repost in the 'suggestions + wishlist' segment 

If this can be confirmed/denied that would be lovely  :)


HornetMaX

The rumble simply takes the acceleration (X/Y/Z) of the CoG of the chassis, passes it throught a high-pass filter (component by component), take the norm and map this linearly between min/max rumble (if above a given threshold).

In simpler words, it translates "how much your chassis is shaking" (for whichever reason it is shaking).
It is not directly tied to the tires slipping. As you guessed, GPB does not provide a "tire slip" signal to the plugin (and for once I tend to agree with the coice, this is not something that should be exposed).

To be honest I always thought that the rumble as implemented in the pluigin is close to useless and just cosmetic. It won't give you more "feeling". At best it should only be able to translate some blatant vibrations (like passing over kerbs, or bike weave/wobble). But some seems to like it so that's it.

BTW, MXB has controller rumble integrated since beta13.
Haven't tried, but I wouldn't be surprised if PiBoSo implementation was better than my one :)

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 27, 2021, 08:12:26 PMTo be honest I always thought that the rumble as implemented in the pluigin is close to useless and just cosmetic. It won't give you more "feeling". At best it should only be able to translate some blatant vibrations (like passing over kerbs, or bike weave/wobble). But some seems to like it so that's it.

I mean for the first 2 and a bit years of GPB I didn't use it. (Other parts of your plug in like standings, fuel etc but not rumble.)

I didn't want to go so far as saying it's useless, as the entire plugin is far beyond what I'm capable of making, and it's really, really good, but the rumble isn't what I wanted out of it  :)

I just thought I'd try 5o see if I could solve some (seemingly) random falls I was having, and see if I could get it set up for my liking, as it could be an advantage.

I got it relatively close, but the tyre slip response seemed to be the missing 'part' for me ATM.

I'll pop it in the 'Suggestions and Wishlist' topic  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 27, 2021, 08:12:26 PMBTW, MXB has controller rumble integrated since beta13.
Haven't tried, but I wouldn't be surprised if PiBoSo implementation was better than my one :)

Yes I have seen it. It's hard to judge what's better when ones on dirt and ones on tarmac, due to the fact they're inherently different disciplines that provide different styles and thus different feedback.

I wish it would be implemented on GPB to get a direct comparison however, but nice work with what you got available.  ;D

Vini

But where is the problem using the wheelspeed for slip detection (second rumble mode)?

HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 28, 2021, 07:02:58 AMI didn't want to go so far as saying it's useless, as the entire plugin is far beyond what I'm capable of making, and it's really, really good, but the rumble isn't what I wanted out of it  :)
I mean the rumble is useless, not the entire plugin. Hopefully :)
And even if it's far beyond what you can do, if it's useless then well, it's useless :)

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on July 28, 2021, 07:02:58 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 27, 2021, 08:12:26 PMBTW, MXB has controller rumble integrated since beta13.
Haven't tried, but I wouldn't be surprised if PiBoSo implementation was better than my one :)

Yes I have seen it. It's hard to judge what's better when ones on dirt and ones on tarmac, due to the fact they're inherently different disciplines that provide different styles and thus different feedback.

I wish it would be implemented on GPB to get a direct comparison however, but nice work with what you got available.  ;D
MaxHUD also works for MXB, so in principle one could compare my rumble implementation with PiBoSo's in MXB.
Or wait for PiBoSo to make it availabl ein GPB too.

My impressions: in MXB you get rumble on jumps/landings and when crossing ruts: that's probably enough to generate some immersion. In GPB it's a different story ...

Quote from: Vini on July 28, 2021, 10:18:48 AMBut where is the problem using the wheelspeed for slip detection (second rumble mode)?
Your bike speed (as in chassis speed) could be 200.00Kmh, your rear wheel speed could be identical to that, 200.00Kmh. And yet you could be slipping like mad, laterally.

Estimating slipping (lateral and longitudinal) from usually known observables (chassis speed, wheelspeeds etc) is far from easy. I tried something very rough in HUDLean, showing the difference in direction (angle) of the chassis velocity vector versus the chassis orientation (i.e. showing when the bike is not mocing in the direction it is pointing to) but it didn't seem very useful to me.

I'm sure GPB internally has longitudinal slip and lateral slip computed (they are inputs in the tire model) but PiBoSo probably does not want to expose these as you wouldn't have them on a real bike telemetry. I tend to agree with him on that point.

Myst1cPrun3

July 29, 2021, 09:32:49 AM #909 Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 09:35:25 AM by Myst1cPrun3
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMI mean the rumble is useless, not the entire plugin. Hopefully :)
And even if it's far beyond what you can do, if it's useless then well, it's useless :)

Fair enough  ;)

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMMaxHUD also works for MXB, so in principle one could compare my rumble implementation with PiBoSo's in MXB.
Or wait for PiBoSo to make it available in GPB too.


That, is a very good point and one that completely slipped my mind. Well I know what I'm trying this weekend   ;D

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMYour bike speed (as in chassis speed) could be 200.00Kmh, your rear wheel speed could be identical to that, 200.00Kmh. And yet you could be slipping like mad, laterally.



Yes, I agree here. At the minute it's the low speed grip losses, mainly rear washouts, where I'm having trouble ATM. Not sure how useful wheel speed differences would be in this situation if at all, as it's neutral throttle, wheels in line at most.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMEstimating slipping (lateral and longitudinal) from usually known observables (chassis speed, wheelspeeds etc) is far from easy. I tried something very rough in HUDLean, showing the difference in direction (angle) of the chassis velocity vector versus the chassis orientation (i.e. showing when the bike is not moving in the direction it is pointing to) but it didn't seem very useful to me.


This may not be too useful as a
graphical readout, as there's not much you could do with it I don't think.

However it would be interesting to see how this would relate if integrated with 'rumble'. Maybe as we start going 'out of line' the rumble starts, and progressively gets larger until a crash? Not sure. But it could be useful in situations I tthink, even as a placebo for tyre grip. (Tricking the player into 'feeling' grip loss)

But I'm not an expert, only way I'd know is if I could try it.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMI'm sure GPB internally has longitudinal slip and lateral slip computed (they are inputs in the tire model) but PiBoSo probably does not want to expose these as you wouldn't have them on a real bike telemetry. I tend to agree with him on that point.


Interesting. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say youre trying to get 'rumble' to represent the dataset generated by a bike?

I understand for graphical out puts.

For me personally, with rumble, I'm looking for the vibrations to represent the 'seat of the pants' feeling lost by using a game pad instead of a motorcycle. One of the big things for me that is lost is the tyre flex and slip, as the tyre is the first line of suspension. How that tyre flexes/loads seems to be a huge part of how bike behaviour is "understood" by the rider.

One thing that is shown to me however, is the Virtual Rider seems to limit the bikes lean based on where the "maximum grip" is. Now, I know there isn't a "Max Grip" Setting, and I know that's not how it works, but that seems to be the effect that is represented in GP Bikes.

For me if that barrier could be 'removed' and replaced with progressive Vibration, (The closer to the point where the VR intervenes the higher the vibration) this would give much more useful feedback, and give the player a bit more control.

I'm aware the "barrier" isn't necessarily something that can be removed in a plugin, but maybe the vibration could be implemented? Maybe as a separate check box, with threshold settings adjusting how close you have to get to the value before it kicks in and so on?

As for the real world, I don't know much about sensors and stuff, but Honda MotoGP team reportedly has a light on the dash that illuminates when the tyre is approaching grip loss. It's all rumours but I wouldn't be surprised if such a sensor existed.

If there was one You'd possibly have to look to WSBK however rather than MotoGP due to the more advanced electronics over there.

Vini

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMI'm sure GPB internally has longitudinal slip and lateral slip computed (they are inputs in the tire model) but PiBoSo probably does not want to expose these as you wouldn't have them on a real bike telemetry. I tend to agree with him on that point.
Like you say, in reality you only have wheel speed as well. So why shouldn't it work in GPB?
But not compare rspeed to chassis speed but to front wheel speed.
I think the yaw angle approach is flawed because at elevation changes it no longer corresponds to rear slip.
BTW, how does the GPB TC work? Sometimes it seems to me that it does use yaw angle for slip calculation.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Vini on August 07, 2021, 08:27:18 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 28, 2021, 11:03:21 PMI'm sure GPB internally has longitudinal slip and lateral slip computed (they are inputs in the tire model) but PiBoSo probably does not want to expose these as you wouldn't have them on a real bike telemetry. I tend to agree with him on that point.
Like you say, in reality you only have wheel speed as well. So why shouldn't it work in GPB?
But not compare rspeed to chassis speed but to front wheel speed.
I think the yaw angle approach is flawed because at elevation changes it no longer corresponds to rear slip.
BTW, how does the GPB TC work? Sometimes it seems to me that it does use yaw angle for slip calculation.
With wheelspeed alone you do nothing, in reality or in GPB.
Real bikes have plenty of other inputs the problem is that the model that estimates a slip angle from all these inputs is a complex one. It's not a bunch of IFs and multiplications, it's some sort of non-linear dynamic estimator. Good luck in having this working and tuned to each bike. You're essentially asking to code in the plugin a real bike TC ...

Yaw angle: it doesn't work well, but not for the reason you said. Elevation changes have little do do with it.
It doesn't work well even if the turn is flat.

GPB TC: it's internal, so PiBoSo could as well have "cheated" and used the tire slip angle(s) coming straight from the bike "real" model. Of course he's not keen to expose these. Or maybe he has a simplified TC algorithm: I haven't tried anything in the past 3 years but my recallings were that GPB TC was pretty useless anyway.

Vini

August 11, 2021, 07:46:57 AM #912 Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 07:58:01 AM by Vini
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 09, 2021, 04:54:06 PMYou're essentially asking to code in the plugin a real bike TC ...
I'm not asking that at all.
I would just like to see a very simple wheelspeed ratio based rumble mode.
If it doesn't work then so be it but I don't understand why you have to make it so complicated if a simple solution could potentially work.
Anything would be better than the tyre feedback we have now, which is 0.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 09, 2021, 04:54:06 PMYaw angle: it doesn't work well, but not for the reason you said. Elevation changes have little do do with it.
It doesn't work well even if the turn is flat.

GPB TC: it's internal, so PiBoSo could as well have "cheated" and used the tire slip angle(s) coming straight from the bike "real" model. Of course he's not keen to expose these. Or maybe he has a simplified TC algorithm: I haven't tried anything in the past 3 years but my recallings were that GPB TC was pretty useless anyway.
I'm saying that because GPB TC cuts a lot sooner at uphill corners where the bike oversteers. The rear is not spinning faster but the bike is turning at more yaw angle.
I'm relatively sure the TC is not based on slip angle directly because often out of slow hairpins it cuts the engine when there only is wheelie but no rear slide.

HornetMaX

August 11, 2021, 11:46:17 AM #913 Last Edit: August 11, 2021, 02:42:39 PM by HornetMaX
Quote from: Vini on August 11, 2021, 07:46:57 AMI'm not asking that at all.
I would just like to see a very simple wheelspeed ratio based rumble mode.
If it doesn't work then so be it but I don't understand why you have to make it so complicated if a simple solution could potentially work.
What do you mean ? Rumble if front and rear do not have the same wheelspeed ?!

Quote from: Vini on August 11, 2021, 07:46:57 AMAnything would be better than the tyre feedback we have now, which is 0.
Bad feedback is not better than no feedback.

Vini

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 11, 2021, 11:46:17 AMWhat do you mean ? Rumble if front and rear do not have the same wheelspeed ?!
Yes and make scale adjustable. So just RumblePercent=100*Scale*(1-FSpeed/RSpeed)
Don't worry about wheelie and gyro and yaw and blablabla.
That would be stuff for later if the feedback turns out to be of use.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 11, 2021, 11:46:17 AMBad feedback is not better than no feedback.
Only one way to find out.