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File Encryption Tool for Modders Please Piboso?

Started by Hawk, February 21, 2020, 02:56:45 PM

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HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk on March 02, 2020, 12:22:01 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 01, 2020, 11:38:06 AMJust personal opinion here.

I totally agree that copying without crediting is bad practice, but I still don't get what the authors of encrypted mods would gain from that.

I mean: modder B rips from modder A. What does modder A stand to lose from that ?

If mods were sold for real money then OK something should be done (note this would go much further than simple encryption) but as this is not the case today, what's the problem for modder A ? Where's the damage for him or for the community ?

I have the impression that the whole discussion boils down to: "if modder B rips from modder A without crediting, modder A gets angry for ePeen reasons" (translated: because modder B is somehow claiming to be as good or better than modder A). I think it's futile: with unencrypted mods, anynbody can see who  has ripped from who. Just post on the fourm something like "Hi modder B, this is modder A. Thanks for ripping our mod without permission and without crediting us.". Just shame them.



I feel your missing the point Max......

<very long non-reply cut>


And I feel you've missed the question, let me try to ask it again:

"I totally agree that copying without crediting is bad practice, but I still don't get what the authors of encrypted mods would gain from that.

I mean: modder B rips from modder A. What does modder A stand to lose from that ?"


If you have no clear answer to that, then I have no idea what we're talking about except modders' ego (not saying it's your/your team case in particular).




Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on March 04, 2020, 12:56:07 PMAnd I feel you've missed the question, let me try to ask it again:

"I totally agree that copying without crediting is bad practice, but I still don't get what the authors of encrypted mods would gain from that.

I mean: modder B rips from modder A. What does modder A stand to lose from that ?"


If you have no clear answer to that, then I have no idea what we're talking about except modders' ego (not saying it's your/your team case in particular).




Max. You seem to be missing a basic overall situation here: No one is saying that all mods HAVE to be encrypted.
If the tool was made available, then those that wish to encrypt their work can do so, but at the same time those that don't wish to encrypt their work can do that too, so why bring up issues that have no relevance to Piboso releasing his encryption tool? What's the issue here?

Seems to me that the only ones who don't like the idea of MOD work being encrypted by those the wish to do so are the ones who like the idea of being able to steal others work & information?

On top of that, there is the very likely possibility that if there was an encryption tool available for modders work then the more professional modders would more likely provide their work happily to the GPBike community..... It's a win win situation, so I just cannot understand the objections and somewhat lame excuses being put forward for not releasing Piboso's encryption tool? What's the problem, really, apart from as I said that certain people want to be able to steal others hard work and information and take credit for it. You wouldn't like it if someone stole your work and took credit for it so why do you expect others to not give a damn? It's not about ego, it's about doing what's right and actually giving a damn about doing what's right, something that is obviously lacking in recent generations by the sound of it?

Myst1cPrun3

March 04, 2020, 08:04:01 PM #47 Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 09:39:38 PM by Myst1cPrun3
My Summed Up thoughts:

- Modding encryption would make it harder for new modders, so if this encryption tool were to be released it would have to come AFTER a complete de-crypted example bike, to allow a sort of base to follow for new modders.

Ideally this would come from Piboso Himself, but Matty seems to be fiddling with one. Not sure how far it is a long however

- An encryption tool would make it harder to steal other peoples data, and handling, but if a mod is done right, then the data is likely transferable anyway, so you'd end up with the same values, so encrypting them is pointless to that degree.... However the issue is when people don't even check.

For instance, BlackHearts BMW S1000rr in the WSBK pack shares a LOT of values in the CFG with my HP4 Race, as these are the real world values for the BMW's. We've hit such a point in the internet, and availability of resources that these values aren't even hard to come by, so for ANY modder, there is very little excuse for having un-realstic values, unless its a prototype, such as a GP Bike, or a silhouette such as a WSBK, which I'll get onto in a minute

(Off topic slightly: The WSBKS are so far removed from the Showroom bikes I consider them silhouettes rather than 'proddie' bikes (That being said, wheelbases, gear ratios, geometries etc must be the same according to the rules so the data Should be the same across all variants of that bike in the sim, regardless of author.)) 

- As I stated last time, I believe this 'tool' if its even a consideration, should be implemented on mods that are scratch built. For instance, as I stated earlier, a LOT of new mods, both tracks and bikes, are taken from, 'other' sources to some degree.

This itself presents a problem, as its hard to police.
Eagle Dynamics' method was presented as an option, however I don't believe this to be valid, as it for a competent modder, ripping without permission, from any source, such as alternate title or other Mod, would have no issue scratch building a mod, and then getting the encryption off piboso, and then using it on other MoDs that do not meet the standards set. And nothing could be done to stop this.

If this is the way to go, I believe the encryption would have to be done on Piboso's end. So sent the Un-Encrypted Mod to piboso and then get the encrypted mod back for public download. The issue comes in the amount of mods being made, and the fact pib seems busy enough, however this would give complete control over the content, meaning only the best scratch built mods could be encrypted, and ripped mods, in any way, would be a open for use and editing by anyone, as the modder did when the rip or copy - paste job happened. You've either got to fully do a mod, 3d model and all, for it to be encrypted, or not at all. As you can't complain when people change values on a Mod without permission where you yourself got the original content from another source without permission, and yes this includes anything I do as I'm not better than anyone and should be held to the same standards. (The only exception would be if proof could be provided to Piboso, or a trusted admin if he chooses, that permission from the original author was obtained for the rip/conversion)

- Its not a matter of being for or against this encryption, its a lot more grey than it seems, as I see a lot of comments from people wanting this who themselves use files from other sources. Why should they get to do that, and then encrypt the work as if its theirs? They shouldn't.


-

Quote from: Hawk on March 03, 2020, 11:45:56 AMI agree with Javi...... A rider tests a bike with changes and reports back how it is feeling and reacting to the devs, players don't need to know exactly what has been changed, that's the bikeMOD devs department, besides as I've stated above, 99% of players wouldn't have a clue what any changes mean anyway. So I just don't understand these excuses that keep cropping up against an encryption tool..... Just bordering on the lame excuse in my book considering we're not advocating that all modders must encrypt the files but only those that wish to; I just don't get the adversity to it all here? An encryption tool would provide solution to either side of the debate surely?

But I'm sure the modders who are anti-encryption will continue to provide you all with un-encrypted mods for people to study any changes if that's what some people want here? But testers are testers, they don't really need to know what's changed, they just need to report back how the bike is feeling & handling, that's all. If the testers were good at interpreting the physics data changes needed to get the bike handling properly then the devs would have them in the dev-team already, right. :)

If this anti-encryption attitude is simply a fear of not being able to learn how to mod a bike cause a lot of the files will be locked-off then don't be daft, you all know very well that this modding community likes to help newcomers to modding when we can...... So stop being drama queens! Anyone would think you were anti-Brexit/Pro EU supporters! Lol! :o  ;D  ;D

I also am not providing excuses for not having it, I'm just imploring that people consider all angles, I mean the only 2 CAWS members that I see on the GP Bikes Discord are H and Matty. (not having a go or anything, and not having a discord is not a bad thing, just means there isn't a 'full picture') Also that is where the majority of new Mods are these days, resulting in the Forums being quiet, and as a result anyone who isn't active on the Discord is at a severe disadvantage when it comes to what is actually going on. As the discord is 10x more active than the forums, by modders, racers, and developers alike, so your view becomes more skewed to ripped content when only trawling through the forums.

As for the modding community being helpful, I can 100% agree on that, being someone who has only recently attempted the Art.
Matty, Javi, TomHWK, as well as a few others have helped me get, an all be it ripped bike, into GP Bikes (Was learning the process then I can eventually learn 3D modelling))

However, while the community is good, and helpful with this, I think it is not their place to be. It is up to the developer to provide the support for his game, which, as I have found out, there is a severe lack of resources to help with, and what resources there are aren't together so it takes 10x longer to do anything. Oh, and the tools could do with an update.

Basically, PIB needs to sort out the back end support for modders, before we start getting features like this. (Not saying I don't want it, that's important to note, as I think it should be available, just there are other steps that MUST be taken before it is implemented, for the survival and growth of GP Bikes)

As for how a rider tests a bike, players don't need to know exactly what has been changed, but I wouldn't go as far as saying 99% of players wouldn't understand these changes anyway. That's just gross ignorance on your part, after all, this is supposed to be a simulation, so a basic knowledge and understanding of handling and motorcycling operation is required. So for me changelogs, could be graphical, and handling only, not necessarily back-end stuff like exact numbers and stuff.

But I urge you to not be as arrogant as to say that no one understands. Or else there is no point you being part of a debate, if you're going to write anyone off who has a valid, factual opinion. Its a very 'You're wrong and I'm right now bog off' attitude, and it is a dangerous one to have.

As for the feeling of testing a bike, that is correct, you do determine, MOST of a bike's setup and handling of rider feel, but then the data is consolidated to confirm this. (I'd say about 75% rider feel then 25% data)

Now if I had to guess, most people here are playing on a gamepad, and do not have access to the full range of feeling that a motorcycle gives, as there is no 'Seat of the Pants' for most of us, therefore, sounds, minute vibration, which is un-official third party (and very good considering), and visual. This is NOWHERE near enough to make a mod based off, so the data has to be used.
However you seem to be ignoring this point in your posts, which leads me to believe, that you're just flitting through, finding points that support your opinion, and then disregarding anything else as wrong, or as you put it, LAME EXCUSES. That in itself is a dangerous, and arrogant thing to do, and highlights the core issues in society.

OH MY GOD, THIS CELEBRITY SAID VACCINES ARE DANGEROUS AND CAUSE AUTISM, AND ITS WHAT I BELIEVE SO ANYONE ELSE IS WRONG AND IT MUST BE TRUE

That is how it comes across to me. Look at all areas, and look at how it could be implemented in the best way, rather than just slapping something together and out the door, just because it was asked, GP Bikes has enough of that as it is. Looking at you Launch Control

Myst1cPrun3

Upon re-reading that it doesn't seem very summed up lol sorry :D

matty0l215

You got a TDLR for that. I haven't got all night to read Sun Tzu
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Myst1cPrun3

That WAS the TLDR
and its more entertaining than sun tzu
:D

matty0l215

March 04, 2020, 08:50:46 PM #51 Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 08:55:13 PM by matty0l215
I dunno. This thread is turning into a war zone.

Here's quite a simple awnser to all this

Give modders the ability to encrypt mods. Modder and the community must then be aware and prepared for the possibility of new potential modders being put off by the lack of refrence material or being asked questions on how to mod.

Having the tool does not mean it needs to be used. I certainly wouldn't use it as I don't feel it is nesseccerry and am more than happy to call out anyone who blatantly steals content without asking first or recognising the original content creator.

Just my 2p as this isn't a difficult topic.
For faster responses, please visit the discord server- HERE

Myst1cPrun3

March 04, 2020, 08:56:55 PM #52 Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 08:59:42 PM by Myst1cPrun3
Aight,
tLDR

- Piboso needs to release a fully un-encrypted model and bike to help new modders before this is even considered

- Documentation needs organising by the Dev on the forum's. Like why in god's name do I have to go to a kart racing forum for information on a bike sim

- Bike Info is readily available on the internet, so there is no excuse for unrealistic bike values, and by extension, many bikes that are the same sort of thing (s1000rr and hp4 for instance) share same values. Not all values are stolen

- Encryption should require the mod sending over to PiBoSo, or a trusted admin, who then ensures there is no Ripped content, before firing an encrypted link back to the dev.
As encrypting content that isn't 100% you're own in the first place isn't right for me.

- A lot more happens on the discord than on the forums these days, due to the milestone débâcle, so neglecting to use it puts you at a disadvantage, and 'out of the loop'

- Make sure you use all of  a point to back up your opinion, not just picking out little bits.

I believe that sums it up?

The main issue for me is when people would encrypt mods that contain content that isn't theirs in the first place. That is what would grind my gears, and the main thing that needs to be looked at

matty0l215

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VSMaster

March 04, 2020, 10:41:03 PM #54 Last Edit: March 04, 2020, 11:02:54 PM by VSMaster
From what I read, it looks like that someone in the past copied values from other mod without credit the owner. How many times did this happen? Just curious

Then maybe an encrypting tool is needed but only if there is an example bike that can be taken as reference for new modders, otherwise it will be impossible (for me). In this last period, more and more users wants to bring to the community new bikes.

[Remember 90% of the mods have ripped models from other games]
Always on the edge

Hawk

Okay, here's my final thoughts on the subject?

Basically I think I'm just banging my head against a brick wall wanting this encryption tool..... Though I really think it's as simple as those that want to use an encryption tool should have it available to use.... Those that don't want to use it, then don't use it.... SIMPLE really! No big deal surely! :o  ::)

But yes I agree with most of what you've said in your major summery above Mystic, but certainly disagree with your thoughts on the usefulness of discord servers.... As far as I understand how they work, they are just a more elaborate chat facility..... So what if someone asks a question and another person answers them.... Then a month later someone comes along and wants to see that persons answer again cause he remembers it holds useful modding info that he now needs to reference again? That information is gone right? Or am I wrong? But that's how I understand these discord servers work and therefore, in my opinion, have no place in a modding team or community where useful information that needs recording in some form for future reference is a must. A forum is a much better place for this kind of thing.

As for not having an encryption tool cause of lack of information available for would-be modders..... Frankly that is where I think yourself, and others who've expressed the same excuse, are talking nonsense, and yes I still think that is well described as what can be called a "Lame" excuse, and this is not arrogance at all, it is just straight talking with a big smile of disbelief on my face at what you are saying mate! Lol! ;D  ;D

Opinions are not truths or untruths, they are just a personal belief or conviction of what one is saying, no more than that but certainly not arrogance.... You can either take them or leave them, it's no big deal either way..... Have a good night guys! ;)  ;D  8) 



Myst1cPrun3

March 05, 2020, 02:40:26 AM #56 Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 02:49:59 AM by Myst1cPrun3
Quote from: Hawk on March 05, 2020, 12:00:52 AMBut yes I agree with most of what you've said in your major summery above Mystic, but certainly disagree with your thoughts on the usefulness of discord servers.... As far as I understand how they work, they are just a more elaborate chat facility..... So what if someone asks a question and another person answers them.... Then a month later someone comes along and wants to see that persons answer again cause he remembers it holds useful modding info that he now needs to reference again? That information is gone right? Or am I wrong? But that's how I understand these discord servers work and therefore, in my opinion, have no place in a modding team or community where useful information that needs recording in some form for future reference is a must. A forum is a much better place for this kind of thing.

Discord being an elaborate chat facility.. and what are we doing here. ;)

As for the questions there is a search button, so you can go back indefinitely to find the information you need should that be required. As well as this admin can 'pin messages' to topics, so it becomes the first message that someone sees clicking on the topic, and can always be found easily. It functions much the same way as a pinned topic here, where its In bold, a different shade of blue, and the first thing you see when clicking a board. Or whichever way round the names are but you get the point
Setup right, discord does the same job as this forum, and is much easier to navigate. Set up right.

Also, most modders are moving all their mods over to private discord servers, due to more freedom with content, as well as how easy it is to get feedback and information directly.

as well this, the entire place is more active, (there are GP bikers there who aren't even on the forum's, and championships and racing are often being organised there instead of the forum's) so even if you prefer to communicate on the forum's and via other methods, you're missing out on a vital aspect of gp bikes by not having an account. Even if you only check it once every blue moon.

Pibs also more active there as well so it's the place to hit him up if you need advice or have a question it seems :)




Quote from: Hawk on March 05, 2020, 12:00:52 AMOkay, here's my final thoughts on the subject?

Basically I think I'm just banging my head against a brick wall wanting this encryption tool..... Though I really think it's as simple as those that want to use an encryption tool should have it available to use.... Those that don't want to use it, then don't use it.... SIMPLE really! No big deal surely! :o  ::)


Now you know how we feel when we're trying to explain to you why modern MotoGP is better than historical 2-smokers and all you say is 'men were men' or 'electronics are bad' or 'its killing the sport'
;)

For me it's those who take advantage, and encrypt work that wasn't 100% theirs in the first place, and how the encryption would be implemented to prevent this. It's extremely hypocritical, and could damage gp bikes more than no encryption in the first place.

As for implementing it, I do think, at least organising what modding tutorials and info we do have to one place would be necessary before it's implementation. As beings new 'modder' myself I guess, looking for more niche info is next to impossible, (very little info on stuff like shader files, and how to actually name the 3d parts and all that, it was Matty that taught me that and javi who helped with the shaders), the result is you end up forum hopping from gpb to mxb to krp and so on. Like there's a little bit of everything everywhere, but not a full system if that makes sense.

Other than that I'm impartial to its introduction. I can understand why it's wanted, I can understand why it's not, and I can see difficulties arising from it being rushed and implemented incorrectly. Hence why I think mods should have to be sent to a trusted admin for encryption, then you know the 100% scratch built models are getting the protection they deserve.

As for rushing implementations, See the 'launch control' and various mod tools for more examples of those :)

Corrie

I can't speak for the GPB or WRS side of things, but I feel as if the KRP side of things has come out of control a couple times in the past. Especially with content theft on content that was paid for, we saw rampant theft of models, files, and other data. It was difficult to deal with - see this thread (post #71). You can see that one of my mods was repackaged, renamed, and blatantly stolen. Aside from other community issues within that discussion, we saw some of the worst community involvement in this - namely that the members who had stolen were not reprimanded in the slightest. This had been an issue leading into that discussion and had been a major issue.

This brings me to the encryption tool. We have been looking for an anti-theft device for our mods for the last few years because of the issues we've had with people taking our content and releasing it as their own. This has happened with tracks, engines, tires, and paints for helmets and karts. We're part of a small community and content theft is something that pushes away serious modders. We have rallied behind an encryption tool because we feel as if our mods are high quality. See this example, and browse through the forum for other posts by Cory or Ian.

The encryption tool would allow us to prevent the modifying and distribution of our content. Especially on paid projects, it's insulting that people will buy it and try to 'crack' it. I understand there are many people who don't like us asking money for our work, and I know there are many who will tell us 'thats the way it is' when it comes to content theft. I view it as an issue, and we want to make it clear that we will not stand for it.

Mystic brings up so many good points, as do many of the posters in this thread. With the exception of blackheart, I feel like people have been at least somewhat constructive. However, I can see things aren't turning for the better. Hopefully this sorts itself out, and hopefully everyone can calm down a little bit. If anything, this post aims to serve as a secondary perspective for some of you who don't know about the blatant stealing that has gone on in the past. This is why some people are so adamant about anti-theft devices.

I don't want to see this community in shambles because of egos and disagreement. At the end of the day, we're all motorsport enthusiasts, and we can put aside our differences to have a little fun in our simulators.

h106frp

I wonder if views on this subject will change if the bike goes to STEAM and the potential exists to be paid for mod content through workshop.

Hawk

Quote from: Corrie on March 05, 2020, 03:50:45 AMI can't speak for the GPB or WRS side of things, but I feel as if the KRP side of things has come out of control a couple times in the past. Especially with content theft on content that was paid for, we saw rampant theft of models, files, and other data. It was difficult to deal with - see this thread (post #71). You can see that one of my mods was repackaged, renamed, and blatantly stolen. Aside from other community issues within that discussion, we saw some of the worst community involvement in this - namely that the members who had stolen were not reprimanded in the slightest. This had been an issue leading into that discussion and had been a major issue.

This brings me to the encryption tool. We have been looking for an anti-theft device for our mods for the last few years because of the issues we've had with people taking our content and releasing it as their own. This has happened with tracks, engines, tires, and paints for helmets and karts. We're part of a small community and content theft is something that pushes away serious modders. We have rallied behind an encryption tool because we feel as if our mods are high quality. See this example, and browse through the forum for other posts by Cory or Ian.

The encryption tool would allow us to prevent the modifying and distribution of our content. Especially on paid projects, it's insulting that people will buy it and try to 'crack' it. I understand there are many people who don't like us asking money for our work, and I know there are many who will tell us 'thats the way it is' when it comes to content theft. I view it as an issue, and we want to make it clear that we will not stand for it.

Mystic brings up so many good points, as do many of the posters in this thread. With the exception of blackheart, I feel like people have been at least somewhat constructive. However, I can see things aren't turning for the better. Hopefully this sorts itself out, and hopefully everyone can calm down a little bit. If anything, this post aims to serve as a secondary perspective for some of you who don't know about the blatant stealing that has gone on in the past. This is why some people are so adamant about anti-theft devices.

I don't want to see this community in shambles because of egos and disagreement. At the end of the day, we're all motorsport enthusiasts, and we can put aside our differences to have a little fun in our simulators.

I totally agree with you Corrie and having read your links and others too I totally sympathise with your situation there..... It's a very sad reflection of recent generations attitude to what's right and wrong these days..... It's a disgrace in my book!!

If Piboso's projects want to attract the best modders for the community then there has to be an organised modding system, even if it requires Piboso to integrate any mods himself so he can keep control of what mods will be allowed to run in his projects.... Again, I refer people and Piboso to the modding model of Eagle Dynamics for DCS World as an example in how to keep control of mods for projects..... Piboso could even make a little extra money from it by taking a percentage of each mod unit sold if he wants to go down the monetising route for additional mods for his projects.

But the overall impression I have now is that while modding is open for all then it's not worth modding at all for Piboso's projects simply cause the open modding system has attracted SO many unscrupulous modders and bad attitudes in modding now that the only way to get control of it again would be for Piboso to stop the open modding of his projects and control it the same way as Eagle Dynamics have done with DSC World, or a similar working model.....

Just to end by saying a big congratulations to Corrie and team for the great modding work they've done there in KRP..... Looks fantastic! Great work mate! ;)  ;D  8)