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Message For Piboso And Devolved Converstion

Started by Stout Johnson, June 15, 2020, 08:22:45 PM

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Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2020, 08:51:04 PM@MysticPrun
Are you going to try adding ECU controls to you M2V2? I never really tried the M2 but after Stout raised the question I had a look in the .cfg and after observing a lot of forum discussion I was surprised to find it has no ECU modes other than pit-limiter. Everything on the M2 is basic mechanical at the moment.

From my research, the Honda spec Moto 2 machine (which this is based) had nothing in terms of electronic aids, not TC, AW, or EB, which is why the Piboso Bike is like this.

The Triumph Spec m2 has much more, and is like you said. AW, Adjustable EB, Launch Control, etc. But no TC. They said they would only introduce it if the increased torque from the triple became a safety issue. (it has about 20 more BHP at the rear wheel than the Honda, and the triple naturally has more torque although the specific values I have no idea on)

For this reason the M2V2 will not have any extra aids on that part, although I did experiment to see what the behaviour would be like and help me diagnose where the EB base value needs to be changed. I feel like the value is pretty good ATM but when the new tyres are done it may need changing.

The issue with the current Standard M2 I've found is to someone watching, they saw the honda bikes slide into pretty much any turn, and wondered why it happened like this.

So the easiest way to replicate that was to mash up the EB which I think is what has happened here. The actual reason (derived from interviews from riders etc) the bikes seemed to slide is simply downshifting a lot of gears at once.

(Clutch in, 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1, clutch out, all in one pull, or extremely quick pulls. Which then locked up/under-rotated the rear. It wasn't necessarily to do with the fact the EB was high. Infact I believe the Honda engines used were built to SSP spec, then DETUNED back to road power for reliability. (SSP for parts quality and care, power for reducing stress)

The engines were only about 125bhp, (the piboso M2 is 140, which is the triumph's power)

So no EB. Maybe a triumph spec one after will have them but not this current one I'm doing


Infact I believe the quote you posted was about the Triumps?

(Also the Grand Prix Moto3 Bikes have ALL the aids to my knowledge too, TC Included, but that is open to being checked)


June 16, 2020, 10:06:41 PM #17 Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 10:18:49 PM by Vini
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMLooking at the inputs and how they differ I have no choice but to disagree to this. The inputs are not representative of the real bikes when compared side by side. The visual behaviour of the bikes is also not representative when compared to real life.
You are comparing the inputs of gamepad to that of a real rider sitting on a real bike...
If you closely watch how the suspension behaves (in response to rider inputs) in slowmo, it looks pretty spot on. Certainly compared to other mods, where the suspension just suddenly starts overreacting out of nowhere or stays permanently stiff.
While you can still make the bikes behave weirdly on purpose, it's much harder to do than with any other mod.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMThe ECU simulation is bad in GP Bikes, however the 'harshness' of its intervention is user controlled.
As you said they could do such a thing IRL, and it would make the bikes slower, but, in the game its the fastest way to do so.
It's only faster in the game because without TC, you simply cannot be at the grip limit consistently when operating a virtual throttle through a gamepad without any physical feedback.
An automic algorithm will always be better in this case, no matter how harsh. Real pro riders on the other hand can get very close to the limit, even beating ABS stopping distance etc.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMGonna have to disagree again. I mean  just remembering back to the Valencia session we had the other day, the fastest setup was maximum damping on one end, minimum on the other, and making the bike as long as possible to increase its steering speed. This is COMPLETELY Backwards, and highlights massive issues with the mod values.
1) The bike reacts correctly to setup changes.
2) I used a very different setup to beat Manu's time.
3) The reason why extreme setups tend to be faster in GPB is once again because we are talking about a game and not a real rider who risks highsiding into oblivion with too low rebound damping and who is dependent on gathering sufficient physical feedback from the bike.
4) While not perfect like I said, most of the MGP bikes are way ahead of other mods in terms of dynamics. Depending on the track and your preferred riding style, the optimal setup (or even bike) varies greatly.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 16, 2020, 08:50:01 PMIt is a black magic art IRL, but using material properties and formulae using real world data, we can get a very good guess as to various values. We have real values to go on or get close to for the most part so there is no real reason for it to be 'black magic' here
If it was that easy to calculate, MotoGP teams wouldn't develop their chassis in the wrong direction for months or years. They would simply take those "values" you are talking about, input it into a simulator and see whether it's good or bad. There is simply no practical way to gather every single piece of data necessary to fully describe the physics of the chassis.
...Even if you had access to an actual MotoGP chassis in order to measure every single angle and thickness, which you don't.

P.S.: Have you even tried every bike of the set? There are vast handling differences. I can't stand the Yamaha handling for example. Too stiff and unresponsive. The KTM is like the polar opposite.


A realistic mod has inputs that are similar to real life, as well as suspension behaviour... There's no point having a mod where the suspension looks right but you don't lift to go round the last turn at Malaysia. (Extreme example I know but the point is inputs are just as important. Put the brake lever travel in game next to a real life onboard and it's not comparable. So something is amiss..

You can adjust the TC in the files to be better, but I feel it's more the tyres. The rear has very little edge grip and as such relies on the ECU to boost exit speed.

Not saying you can't ride it different from this but that seems to be 'the way'.

1) no the bike does not respond correct to setup changes, as under NO circumstances should INCREASING the wheelbase make it change direction faster..... (Not Manus setup my own observations, as well as the people I was talking to In the session at the time)

2) never said you didn't

3) Extreme setups on a bike that works correctly don't make the bike faster.

4) it's not perfect, and is not ahead of the other bikes. While it's a good mod, and on some circuits in some circumstances even my boring self can find it enjoyable, and it's quite obvious effort went into making it, it has several issues, which quite clearly make it unrealistic. It certainly isn't the most realistic mod in GPB

I will guide you to CAWS for those.

As for chassis... My statement was more in general, not just for motogp...

It would only be a rough estimate but material strength and stuff are available online, as well as chassis details. I was looking at the difference between the 1098 and 999 earlier, and how they stiffened parts etc, and what materials were used.

If we just had the formulas we could calculate this (albeit roughly) into gpb. It would be way better than what we have now, and I can't see why you'd be against having more information on how the strengths and damping is implemented. It can only be good, even if it's not used.

Ps: I have tried every bike in the set, I was also there during most of the mods development.

I also know (up until recently I haven't checked) most of the bikes were very close to the old 990 in values, the Maximum suspension travel is wrong, and the fuel tank size is incorrect. That's all I bothered to look at.

This is all stuff available on dornas website as it's homologated in the rulebook, and free for everyone btw..

But alas, that's the end of my discussion on the matter. I urge people to download as many mods as you can, as despite the varying level of realism, most are of a high quality thee days, and as people can see, you really have to come to your own conclusions on what you like and want to ride.

Ironically for me, GP bikes simulates actual Grand Prix bikes the worst out of all of them available.

Supersports, and production/low power GP bikes (Moto3/125/250) are some of the most enjoyable in the Sim, and provide the best racing it seems.

MotoGP here doesn't interest me, because of the reasons outlined above. I go to play GP 20 for the GP fix so to speak .



June 16, 2020, 11:01:54 PM #19 Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 11:10:47 PM by Myst1cPrun3
I just also need to clear up:

I don't mean for this to sound like I'm 'bashing another mod'. I, especially after my relatively wrubbish attempts at modding, understand a lot more the process, and I can also understand how making a MotoGP mod could be hard, especially as most of the data is as we said best guess, due to confidential data.

I do really want the mod to succeed, just like I want gpb to succeed, (whole different thread for that one) But there is just evidence that it isn't the most realistic mod in GP Bikes at the minute.


I'm not saying mine are any better, hell, the HP4 race, was cobbled together and is missing some bits, and isn't quite right, and lacks a lot of polish, and the M2 V2 Rework the tyres are unrideable ATM.

So I'm not any better at making one, nowhere near, but I like to think I can see where mods are closer / further from reality.


Ah, hell why did I even get into this?
...Discussing bike mods with a guy who thinks Milestone games have better physics than GPB.




Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:06:05 PMAh, hell why did I even get into this?
...Discussing bike mods with a guy who thinks Milestone games have better physics than GPB.

For MotoGP bikes the physics are closer than this TBF. Inputs and suspension behaviour is a bit more representative.

Milestone upped it this year. Still not perfect, but it's a +ve.

Quote from: Tom HWK on June 16, 2020, 11:14:33 PM

Cheers Tom big help  ;D


Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:18:00 PMGo play MotoGP20, Tom.

Certainly more realistic than backwards entries on a motogp bike and smashing 100% throttle at 60 degrees lean on the apex.


Like I wrote in Discord, Marquez does much more crazy stuff with real MotoGP bikes than entering a corner sideways.
You'd be amazed what real riders can do if they don't have to to fear physical pain from crashing.

...Anyway, like I said: "While you can still make the bikes behave weirdly on purpose, it's much harder to do than with any other mod."

Watch my latest YouTube vids and tell me that it looks less realistic than Milestone crap.


Quote from: Vini on June 16, 2020, 11:33:10 PMWatch my latest YouTube vids and tell me that it looks less realistic than Milestone crap.

It looks less realistic.
Gpbikes can be more realistic than motogp, you just have to make the mod well.



Anyway, somebody please put this nonsense into a different topic.


June 17, 2020, 12:57:45 AM #29 Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 01:25:02 AM by Manu
I am seeing many UK detractors around here. A lot of coincidence? hahaha

The truth is that I do not care much for the comments that are limited to saying how unrealistic a MOD is.  Opinions are like the ass, we all have one.

I also have to say that my modifications are not aimed at pleasing anyone but myself, if I like it I am happy. If others like it (a lot of people) I will be happy too. If others don't like it (a minority) I feel sorry for them. There are many other mods to choose from. I will not resent them.

If someone thinks I should obey the guidelines of others, they are wrong. My mods are free. No one pays me, therefore I don't owe anyone anything. I will only consider the proposals that make sense to me. What I consider inappropriate will fall on deaf ears.

As long as I have fun doing what I do I will keep doing it.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.